Retro POY '96-97 (Voting Complete)

[An Unbiased Fan]

So that means Dwight should have been over Kobe in 2009.
He had better numbers over Kobe in the regular season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2009

Dwight had a higher PER, TS%, Win Share amount in the season.

And he (Dwight) lost to a superior team in the finals. It's not his fault he missed 2 free throws in game 4 near the end of the game.
Had Dwight lost in earlier rounds then I can see Kobe over him.

That is the same exact thing you are doing with MJ vs Malone in 1997.

I don't judge a player on their PER, or WS. You should know that by now.

Kobe was better than Dwight in the RS, and better in the PS in 09'.

How was he better in the RS over Dwight, when Dwight produced more Win Shares, had a higher PER, a higher TS%, etc?

As stated before, if you get both season and finals mvp the same season, there really isn't a case for someone else over you.

Gasol produced more WS than Kobe too, and in no way was the better player in 09'. Kobe's impact was far greater, his leadership was far greater. Dwight was arguing with his coach for half the year, and had an erratic offensive game where you didn't know if he would score 25 or 10. Dwight was great defensively, but Kobe was the better 2-way player.

[JordansBulls]

Gasol produced more WS than Kobe too, and in no way was the better player in 09'. Kobe's impact was far greater, his leadership was far greater. Dwight was arguing with his coach for half the year, and had an erratic offensive game where you didn't know if he would score 25 or 10. Dwight was great defensively, but Kobe was the better 2-way player.

And how does this not apply to Jordan over Malone in 1997 as well?

How did Malone all of a sudden get the best player title when MJ was still the guy who won League and Finals MVP the year before and outplayed Malone in the playoffs and especially in the finals and this even with his teammate playing on a bad foot?

It's one thing if Jordan lost or if Malone outproduced MJ in nearly every facet, but it isn't true here. Malone had the higher PER in the season, but MJ had the higher WS and WS/Per 48 min as well as led the league in scoring and then in the playoffs MJ nearly doubled Malone's total Win Shares.

In 1998 Malone had MJ by 0.6 in Win Shares in the season and by 2.7 in PER in the season.

Win Shares Season

1. Karl Malone*-UTA 16.4
2. Michael Jordan*-CHI 15.8


Player Efficiency Rating Season

2. Karl Malone*-UTA 27.9
4. Michael Jordan*-CHI 25.2


MJ had Malone by 1.8 Win Shares in the season and by by 3.9 PER in the playoffs.

Win Shares

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 4.8
2. Karl Malone*-UTA 3.0


Player Efficiency Rating

2. Michael Jordan*-CHI 28.1
5. Karl Malone*-UTA 24.2

So in a 1/4 of the time MJ outproduced Malone by 1.8 Total Win Shares in the playoffs (20 games) while Malone only outproduced MJ by 0.6 in the season (82 games)

[An Unbiased Fan]

Gasol produced more WS than Kobe too, and in no way was the better player in 09'. Kobe's impact was far greater, his leadership was far greater. Dwight was arguing with his coach for half the year, and had an erratic offensive game where you didn't know if he would score 25 or 10. Dwight was great defensively, but Kobe was the better 2-way player.

And how does this not apply to Jordan over Malone in 1997 as well?

How did Malone all of a sudden get the best player title when MJ was still the guy who won League and Finals MVP the year before and outplayed Malone in the playoffs and especially in the finals?

Malone had an exceptional RS in 97', and took a weaker squad to 64 wins that year. He shot 55% that year, and was a man on a mission. Which is why he won MVP.

MJ conversely, kinda paced himself in the RS, perhaps the 96' run tired him somewhat. Malone was the better RS player in my opinion. I didn't feel MJ's PS was enough to overtake Malone for #1.

[JordansBulls]

Gasol produced more WS than Kobe too, and in no way was the better player in 09'. Kobe's impact was far greater, his leadership was far greater. Dwight was arguing with his coach for half the year, and had an erratic offensive game where you didn't know if he would score 25 or 10. Dwight was great defensively, but Kobe was the better 2-way player.

And how does this not apply to Jordan over Malone in 1997 as well?

How did Malone all of a sudden get the best player title when MJ was still the guy who won League and Finals MVP the year before and outplayed Malone in the playoffs and especially in the finals?

Malone had an exceptional RS in 97', and took a weaker squad to 64 wins that year. He shot 55% that year, and was a man on a mission. Which is why he won MVP.

MJ conversely, kinda paced himself in the RS, perhaps the 96' run tired him somewhat. Malone was the better RS player in my opinion. I didn't feel MJ's PS was enough to overtake Malone for #1.

This makes no sense. Dwight shot 57% in 2009 and took a weaker team to 59 wins with his Allstar PG out 30+ games. He also won DPOY as well and beat 2 teams that won 60+ games.
Dwight basically had better stats in nearly every category than Kobe in the regular season, while Kobe barely had better stats in the playoffs than Dwight.
Kobe had a 0.2 WS lead over Dwight in the playoffs and 1.3 PER lead over him, while in the Season Dwight had a 1.1 Lead and 1.0 PER over Kobe.
So why didn't you say Dwight was ranked over Kobe in 2009?

In 1997, Malone led the league in PER
MJ led the league in Win Shares and Win Shares per 48/min as well as scoring.
MJ's finals was also in the top 5 and had a 29.5 PER in them.

In the playoffs, MJ had a 3.9 Win Shares to Malone's 2.2 despite Malone playing 1 more game than MJ. MJ had Malone by 5+ in PER as well and shot a better FG%, had a higher TS%, and his WS/48 was almost double Malone.

And if you were going to use that logic that he won MVP, then why didn't you vote Iverson over Shaq in 2001? He led the league in scoring and even averaged 35.6 ppg in the finals to Shaq's 33.2 ppg.

[An Unbiased Fan]

And how does this not apply to Jordan over Malone in 1997 as well?

How did Malone all of a sudden get the best player title when MJ was still the guy who won League and Finals MVP the year before and outplayed Malone in the playoffs and especially in the finals?

Malone had an exceptional RS in 97', and took a weaker squad to 64 wins that year. He shot 55% that year, and was a man on a mission. Which is why he won MVP.

MJ conversely, kinda paced himself in the RS, perhaps the 96' run tired him somewhat. Malone was the better RS player in my opinion. I didn't feel MJ's PS was enough to overtake Malone for #1.

This makes no sense. Dwight shot 57% in 2009 and took a weaker team to 59 wins with his Allstar PG out 30+ games. He also won DPOY as well and beat 2 teams that won 60+ games.
Dwight basically had better stats in nearly every category than Kobe in the regular season, while Kobe barely had better stats in the playoffs than Dwight.
Kobe had a 0.2 WS lead over Dwight in the playoffs and 1.3 PER lead over him, while in the Season Dwight had a 1.1 Lead and 1.0 PER over Kobe.
So why didn't you say Dwight was ranked over Kobe in 2009?

In 1997, Malone led the league in PER
MJ led the league in Win Shares and Win Shares per 48/min as well as scoring.
MJ's finals was also in the top 5 and had a 29.5 PER in them.

In the playoffs, MJ had a 3.9 Win Shares to Malone's 2.2 despite Malone playing 1 more game than MJ. MJ had Malone by 5+ in PER as well and shot a better FG%, had a higher TS%, and his WS/48 was almost double Malone.

Dwight shot 57% on 13 shots, all close to the basket. Malone shot 55% from the inside and out and at a higher volume and impact of 19 shots. Kwame Brown shot 59% one year, that doesn't mean he was a good offensive player, you have to factor in the TYPE of shots a player gets, and the overall impact of their offensive game.

Also, while Jameer was out for Orlando, Bynum was out for LA. Even still LA won 65 games in a mucher tougher conference.

You bring up Playoff WS & PER...so do you think Gasol has been the better player in the 10' PS than Kobe has? Again, I don't use those numbers as a guide. I don't even like the way they're formulated. Malone got the Jazz to the Finals, and they took the Bulls to 6 close games. It was close, but I felt overall, Malone was the POY. Malone was the MVp that year for a reason, and I'm not alone in thinking he was the better RS player.

And if you were going to use that logic that he won MVP, then why didn't you vote Iverson over Shaq in 2001? He led the league in scoring and even averaged 35.6 ppg in the finals to Shaq's 33.2 ppg.

I'm not basing it on Malone's MVP. But him winning does bolster his case. And Iverson wasn't my MVP that year.

[JordansBulls]

Dwight shot 57% on 13 shots, all close to the basket. Malone shot 55% from the inside and out and at a higher volume and impact of 19 shots. Kwame Brown shot 59% one year, that doesn't mean he was a good offensive player, you have to factor in the TYPE of shots a player gets, and the overall impact of their offensive game.

Also, while Jameer was out for Orlando, Bynum was out for LA. Even still LA won 65 games in a mucher tougher conference.

You bring up Playoff WS & PER...so do you think Gasol has been the better player in the 10' PS than Kobe has? Again, I don't use those numbers as a guide. I don't even like the way they're formulated. Malone got the Jazz to the Finals, and they took the Bulls to 6 close games. It was close, but I felt overall, Malone was the POY. Malone was the MVp that year for a reason, and I'm not alone in thinking he was the better RS player.

If he had a better RS, it is marginal. The difference between MJ vs Malone Postseason far makes up why MJ was still the best. How could Malone be the POY when he played absolutely terrible in the finals and performed badly down the stretch in key games?

Regarding this year playoffs, here is what a columnist has stated.

Link

1. Pau Gasol

It might surprise some to note that I don't consider Kobe Bryant to even be the best Laker on his own team so far this postseason, but all-around production matters, and in spite of Kobe Bryant's brilliant scoring exploits, Pau Gasol's in-his-prime versatility vaults him to the top of this list.

Fifty-eight percent shooting, over 21 points per game, 12 rebounds a contest, 3.6 assists, two blocks a game, and just 2.2 turnovers per night. On top of that, Gasol's continually improving defense has been a huge asset to a Laker attack that looks primed to repeat.

2. Rajon Rondo

Rondo earns extra points for his defensive dominance, he's allowed some big quarters against Mo Williams and Jameer Nelson, but by and large he's been a pest. Shutting his man down, always looking for a passing lane to mess with.

Eighteen points and six rebounds per game for Rajon, who has tossed around 10.6 assists in what are mainly slow-down contests, with fewer possessions to work with. Fifty percent shooting and two steals per contest for the Celtics lead guard, who has outright dominated on both ends at times.

3. Kobe Bryant

After a slow (for him) start, Kobe has come on like Kobe over the last couple of weeks, seeing his seven-game streak of 30-point contests end with only a 13-assist night (what a slacker) in Game 2 against the Suns.

Most importantly, after months spent working endless pick and rolls with Pau Gasol during the regular season, Kobe has chiseled out a place inside the Laker offense, getting his looks and doing his damage in a way that kept the ball moving, and his opponents on their heels. His 27.5 points per game isn't that far off his regular-season average, but it's the way that he's getting these points that is leading to Los Angeles' white-hot 105 points per game. Bryant is averaging 5.6 assists, 3.4 turnovers, and 4.1 rebounds per game.

4. LeBron James

In turning in over 29 points, nine rebounds, seven assists, and 3.5 combined steals and blocks per contest over 11 games, LBJ easily has the best stats of anyone who has played in the 2010 postseason.

And yet, it speaks to how great he is, and how disappointing his playoff run was, that he was able to put up those stats while effectively submarining his team's chances at getting out of the second round with a listless performance in Game 5 of the Eastern Conference semis, and a way-too-late barrage in Game 6. James could have done better, which is the reason he can't do better than fourth on this list.

Funny, because for all of Kobe Bryant's last-second theatrics during the regular season, James still scored way more, shot better, rebounded twice as much, and dished three times as many assists than Bryant in the clutch in the regular season. Not sure what the Celtics did to make it all go away, but it worked.


5. Jason Richardson

A bit of a surprise, but when you manage to shoot 52 percent from the field and nearly 51 percent from behind the three-point line after 12 playoff games, this sort of fluke has to be recognized.

That's not a slam. J-Rich was and will continue to be a fine outside shooter, but he's not shooting 50.6 percent from long range for the rest of his career, and that is why this is a fluke. But it's also a fluke that has the Suns in the conference finals, as Richardson's 21.8 points per game average has led the team. Six rebounds per game for the Michigan State product, and he's only turned it over eight times since the playoffs began. Nicely done, my man.

[ElGee]

Gasol produced more WS than Kobe too, and in no way was the better player in 09'. Kobe's impact was far greater, his leadership was far greater. Dwight was arguing with his coach for half the year, and had an erratic offensive game where you didn't know if he would score 25 or 10. Dwight was great defensively, but Kobe was the better 2-way player.

And how does this not apply to Jordan over Malone in 1997 as well?

How did Malone all of a sudden get the best player title when MJ was still the guy who won League and Finals MVP the year before and outplayed Malone in the playoffs and especially in the finals?

Malone had an exceptional RS in 97', and took a weaker squad to 64 wins that year. He shot 55% that year, and was a man on a mission. Which is why he won MVP.

MJ conversely, kinda paced himself in the RS, perhaps the 96' run tired him somewhat. Malone was the better RS player in my opinion. I didn't feel MJ's PS was enough to overtake Malone for #1.

MJ paced himself!? What would have happened if he tried?

75 wins? 14 SRS? .400 WS/48? 35 PER?

This is the most baseless thing that has been posted in this entire project. There is absolutely zero evidence Jordan paced himself. They won 69 games with 3 key players missing considerable time! He averaged 30-6-4 on 56% TS. His numbers (and the results) were nearly identical to 1996.

I don't understand why the rest of the voters aren't objecting to this flimsy explanation for this vote. Which, btw, you keep shifting (and saying stuff like "I don't rely on stats" but then you never provide any analysis beyond stats other than "he was on a mission" and "Jordan was coasting," only you've changed the criteria from year to year and it just coincidentally happens to involve Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan.)

[An Unbiased Fan]

If he had a better RS, it is marginal. The difference between MJ vs Malone Postseason far makes up why MJ was still the best. How could Malone be the POY when he played absolutely terrible in the finals and performed badly down the stretch in key games?

Regarding this year playoffs, here is what a columnist has stated.

Link

I don't think Malone's RS was marginally better though. He outperformed MJ that year. I also don't feel he was terrible in the Finals. That whole series was ugly on both sides, and all the games were close.

And as for that article......

[An Unbiased Fan]

Malone had an exceptional RS in 97', and took a weaker squad to 64 wins that year. He shot 55% that year, and was a man on a mission. Which is why he won MVP.

MJ conversely, kinda paced himself in the RS, perhaps the 96' run tired him somewhat. Malone was the better RS player in my opinion. I didn't feel MJ's PS was enough to overtake Malone for #1.

MJ paced himself!? What would have happened if he tried?

75 wins? 14 SRS? .400 WS/48? 35 PER?

This is the most baseless thing that has been posted in this entire project. There is absolutely zero evidence Jordan paced himself. They won 69 games with 3 key players missing considerable time! He averaged 30-6-4 on 56% TS. His numbers (and the results) were nearly identical to 1996.

I don't understand why the rest of the voters aren't objecting to this flimsy explanation for this vote. Which, btw, you keep shifting (and saying stuff like "I don't rely on stats" but then you never provide any analysis beyond stats other than "he was on a mission" and "Jordan was coasting," only you've changed the criteria from year to year and it just coincidentally happens to involve Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan.)

I SAW the Bulls play in 97', and YES, I feel MJ paced himself in the RS. I didn't say that was my criteria for voting at all, it was just an opinion on MJ that year.

Anyway, I have written almost a page in this thread listing the reasons why Malone was better in the RS. Yet, YOU have failed to give me reasons why MJ had the better RS in 97'. Both players were All-NBA/All-D 1st, yet others seemed to agree with me and Malone won MVP....shocking.

[JordansBulls]

If he had a better RS, it is marginal. The difference between MJ vs Malone Postseason far makes up why MJ was still the best. How could Malone be the POY when he played absolutely terrible in the finals and performed badly down the stretch in key games?

Regarding this year playoffs, here is what a columnist has stated.

Link

I don't think Malone's RS was marginally better though. He outperformed MJ that year. I also don't feel he was terrible in the Finals. That whole series was ugly on both sides, and all the games were close.

And as for that article......

Again, MJ led the league in Win Shares while Malone led in PER. MJ had him beat in both in the playoffs and nearly by double. And how did Malone play great in the finals or the playoffs for that matter? He is a PF and he shot 44% in the playoffs and in the finals. That was 11% worse than he did in the season.

[ElGee]

How did Malone have a better regular season?

Malone shot 55% FG/60 TS%
MJ shot 48.6% FG/56.7 TS%
Malone was the better scorer that year. [ElGee Note: He omits ppg: Jordan 29.6. Malone 27.2.]

Malone had 9.9 rpg
MJ had 5.9 rpg
Now this is an obvious advantage for Malone because he's a PF, but Malone also had better assisits numbers(though MJ was in the tri, and that limits his numbers).....

Malone had 4.5 apg
MJ had 4.3 apg

Both were All-NBA/All-D 1st team, but Malone was the MVP. So I would say he had the better regular season.

Then you mentioned how Malone was good in game 1 despite choking and how he was in foul trouble all game long in game 5 (as if that's a good thing for Malone?)

The Jazz were in ever game, and if the ball bounces differently, who knows.

But in another close series in 2009, you questioned why LeBron didn't do more (despite one of the best series in NBA history). Apparently this series being close it good for Malone, that one is bad for LeBron.

When it was pointed out that you did the opposite with LeBron in 2009 vs. Kobe, based on the above explanation that you provided, you responded with:

Actually, you just showed that I have been consistent with my evaluations. First, you must have missed this line in my words about 1997...."If Malone had faltered and lost in the earlier rounds, then MJ would be #1, but I can't penalize Malone for losing in 6 to the better team."

If Malone had lost to a lesser team like Bron did in 2009, then MJ would have been #1. If Lebron had made the FInals and taken LA to 6 games in a close series, he would have gotten the #1 ranking in 2009.

Confused, I asked:

Sorry, I'm not seeing how that's consistent at all. Are you treating all players like this, or only players who are good enough in the regular season to earn the No. 1 seed in the conference? What if the Bulls played in the West? Then MJ would be No. 1?

You said:

Yes, I treat all players like this. There is a lot more to a player's season than simple stats. I like to throw context and perspective into the mix. If the Bulls were in the West, my rankings wouldn't have changed. The Bulls were still the better team, and if the series went the same way, I would still put Malone #1. The difference with this and Lebron in 2009 is that the Cavs lost with HCA to a Magic team that didn't even have it's all-star PG. Had the Cavs lost to the Lakers in a close series, then I would have put Lebron #1.

So now, it's not ppg, rpg or apg, but you've introduced:

*context and perspective
*The Cavs losing to the Magic w/HCA

Only, you haven't provided context and perspective. When it was pointed out that you were conflating team results with individual performance, you then said:

I'm rating the individual, not the team. Otherwise, I would have put MJ #1 in 97'...Malone lost to a better Bulls team in 97'. Lebron lost to a worse Magic team in 09'. Apple & Oranges.

So TS%, rpg, and apg were your original reasons.
Then "context and perspective" (?) and The Cavs loss versus the Jazz loss.

OK, so your further explanation regarding those two issues:

1) The Cavs lost because they had no answer for guys like Lewis for one. [ElGee Note: What does this have to do with LeBron James?] One might ask why All-D 1st team Lebron didn't take up that challenge to guard him. [Oh, apparently LeBron is supposed to stop the other team's power forward. Got it.] Playing a ball-dominant style that basically turned his teammates into decorations didn't really help either. [The same style which led them to 66 wins and the 4th rated offense with that star-studded team they have, which apparently is a bad thing in POY voting for UBF because teams should win with HCA...] Lebron had great production numbers, but that was due in large part to the him holding the ball all game long. [They averaged 101.7 points and 1.13 points per possession with him "holding the ball all game long versus the top ranked defense in the NBA."]

There is a reason Lebron is 1-5 against 50+ win teams in the playoffs, and 09' was a perfect example why. Reminds me of Warren Moon in that Run & Shoot offense, where the system allowed him to put up big numbers, yet in the PS against good teams, he faltered.

2) Star players lead their teams. There is no way to exclude the indivudual completely from the team result. What I do is gauge how a star impacted their team's results in the RS & PS. I also take into account the system run by the team and what the player's role is in that system is, because it influences their production and stats greatly.

Basketball is a team game afterall, not 1 on 1. How a player effects his own AND his team's performance plays a major role in my thinking. How can we truly evaluate a guy like Magic or Bird without doing so? This is why I'm not a box score/PER/WS guy, I think there is a lot more to a player than just numbers.

So that was a nice summary, but you didn't say anything about LeBron vs. Kobe or Malone vs. Jordan in point No. 2.

So again, so far the explanations have been:

*TS%, rpg, apg
*Context and perspective
*Team results (vis a vis losing to a better team vs. losing to a worse team) with where you hold LeBron at fault (my notes above in red since this is my first response to that).

Then you and JB started talking and added this about Malone vs. Jordan:

Malone had an exceptional RS in 97', and took a weaker squad to 64 wins that year. He shot 55% that year, and was a man on a mission. Which is why he won MVP.

MJ conversely, kinda paced himself in the RS, perhaps the 96' run tired him somewhat. Malone was the better RS player in my opinion. I didn't feel MJ's PS was enough to overtake Malone for #1.

And that brings us to where we are:

MJ paced himself!? What would have happened if he tried?

75 wins? 14 SRS? .400 WS/48? 35 PER?

This is the most baseless thing that has been posted in this entire project. There is absolutely zero evidence Jordan paced himself. They won 69 games with 3 key players missing considerable time! He averaged 30-6-4 on 56% TS. His numbers (and the results) were nearly identical to 1996.

I don't understand why the rest of the voters aren't objecting to this flimsy explanation for this vote. Which, btw, you keep shifting (and saying stuff like "I don't rely on stats" but then you never provide any analysis beyond stats other than "he was on a mission" and "Jordan was coasting," only you've changed the criteria from year to year and it just coincidentally happens to involve Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan.)

I SAW the Bulls play in 97', and YES, I feel MJ paced himself in the RS. I didn't say that was my criteria for voting at all, it was just an opinion on MJ that year.

Anyway, I have written almost a page in this thread listing the reasons why Malone was better in the RS. Yet, YOU have failed to give me reasons why MJ had the better RS in 97'. Both players were All-NBA/All-D 1st, yet others seemed to agree with me and Malone won MVP....shocking.

Again, all of the reasons you have listed:

*TS%, rpg, apg
*"Context and perspective"
*Team results (vis a vis losing to a better team vs. losing to a worse team) where you hold LeBron at fault (my notes above since is my first response to that)
*MJ pacing himself (may or not be criteria)

Those are literally all of the reasons (with more detail on why you demoted LeBron in the final response above) for why you're the only person who has Malone over Jordan in a year in which the rest of the voters considered Jordan "obvious" or "easy" choice.

Sorry if I don't find those reasons (1) remotely persuasive or (2) consistent with your votes from the last decade based on your own reasoning (TS%, rpg, apg, team results).

[An Unbiased Fan]

ElGee, I don't see why you're so confused, but let me break it down for you in simple fashion.

Malone was the better scorer this year. He shot 55% FG / 60% TS%, while MJ shot 48.6% / 56.7%. Yes, MJ had a better PPG, but overall I would give Malone the edge. Both were All-D 1st team, and very comparable this year. MJ had slowed a bit, and wasn't the same defender he was in his prime. This was the first time Malone made 1st team, and it was do to a renewed focus on that side of the court. Malone's off the ball play in 97' was also tremendous. He had 4.5 assists at the PF postion too, and his floormanship was excellent the whole year. I felt Malone had a bigger impact all-around than MJ did, and he won the MVP for many of the reasons I listed. His impact in the Jazz system was greater than MJ's for the Bulls during the RS. In the playoffs, both led their teams to the Finals, and the Bulls pulled out a close 6 game series. Malone was 26/11/3 on 44% Fg in the PS. MJ was 31/8/5 on 46% FG. I already said I think MJ had a better PS, I just don't feel it was enough to overtake the #1 spot.

BTW, I'm STILL waiting for YOU to explain how MJ was better, and why I'm wrong about 97''. I don't see you adding anything to the discussion.

Also, stop comparing Lebron 09' & Malone 97'. Those are two seperate seasons, and two seperate players.

[ElGee]

ElGee, I don't see why you're so confused, but let me break it down for you in simple fashion.

Malone was the better scorer this year. He shot 55% FG / 60% TS%, while MJ shot 48.6% / 56.7%. Yes, MJ had a better PPG, but overall I would give Malone the edge. Both were All-D 1st team, and very comparable this year. MJ had slowed a bit, and wasn't the same defender he was in his prime. This was the first time Malone made 1st team, and it was do to a renewed focus on that side of the court. Malone's off the ball play in 97' was also tremendous. He had 4.5 assists at the PF postion too, and his floormanship was excellent the whole year. I felt Malone had a bigger impact all-around than MJ did, and he won the MVP for many of the reasons I listed. His impact in the Jazz system was greater than MJ's for the Bulls during the RS. In the playoffs, both led their teams to the Finals, and the Bulls pulled out a close 6 game series. Malone was 26/11/3 on 44% Fg in the PS. MJ was 31/8/5 on 46% FG. I already said I think MJ had a better PS, I just don't feel it was enough to overtake the #1 spot.

BTW, I'm STILL waiting for YOU to explain how MJ was better, and why I'm wrong about 97''. I don't see you adding anything to the discussion.

Also, stop comparing Lebron 09' & Malone 97'. Those are two seperate seasons, and two seperate players.

The 09 vote and 97 vote are the crux of the entire issue. Notice you can say the exact same thing about the No. 1 and No. 2 positions from your 09 ballot.

LeBron was the better scorer this year. He shot 49% FG / 59% TS%, while Kobe shot 46.7% / 56.1%. And, LeBron had a better PPG, so overall I would give LeBron the edge. Both were All-D 1st team, and very comparable this year. Kobe had slowed a bit, and wasn't the same defender he was in his prime. This was the first time LeBron made 1st team, and it was do to a renewed focus on that side of the court. LeBron's off the ball play in 09' was also tremendous. He had 7.2 assists at the SF postion too, and his floormanship was excellent the whole year. He won the MVP for many of the reasons I listed. His impact in the Cavs system was greater than Kobe's for the Lakers during the RS. In the playoffs, both led their teams to the Conference Finals. LeBron was 35/9/7 on 51% Fg in the PS. Kobe was 30/5/6 on 46% FG.

So it's exactly the same situation according to your criteria. The only difference is LeBron lost in the ECF, Malone in the Finals (both Kobe and MJ added Finals MVP). But in the 2009 Kobe/Jordan vs. LeBron/Malone scenario you voted for Kobe. In 1997 for Malone. Despite, based on your outlined criteria above, LeBron actually having a larger advantage over Kobe than Malone had over Jordan in both RS and PS criteria (save ECF vs. Finals).

Do you not see that?

[An Unbiased Fan]

ElGee, I don't see why you're so confused, but let me break it down for you in simple fashion.

Malone was the better scorer this year. He shot 55% FG / 60% TS%, while MJ shot 48.6% / 56.7%. Yes, MJ had a better PPG, but overall I would give Malone the edge. Both were All-D 1st team, and very comparable this year. MJ had slowed a bit, and wasn't the same defender he was in his prime. This was the first time Malone made 1st team, and it was do to a renewed focus on that side of the court. Malone's off the ball play in 97' was also tremendous. He had 4.5 assists at the PF postion too, and his floormanship was excellent the whole year. I felt Malone had a bigger impact all-around than MJ did, and he won the MVP for many of the reasons I listed. His impact in the Jazz system was greater than MJ's for the Bulls during the RS. In the playoffs, both led their teams to the Finals, and the Bulls pulled out a close 6 game series. Malone was 26/11/3 on 44% Fg in the PS. MJ was 31/8/5 on 46% FG. I already said I think MJ had a better PS, I just don't feel it was enough to overtake the #1 spot.

BTW, I'm STILL waiting for YOU to explain how MJ was better, and why I'm wrong about 97''. I don't see you adding anything to the discussion.

Also, stop comparing Lebron 09' & Malone 97'. Those are two seperate seasons, and two seperate players.

The 09 vote and 97 vote are the crux of the entire issue. Notice you can say the exact same thing about the No. 1 and No. 2 positions from your 09 ballot.

LeBron was the better scorer this year. He shot 49% FG / 59% TS%, while Kobe shot 46.7% / 56.1%. And, LeBron had a better PPG, so overall I would give LeBron the edge. Both were All-D 1st team, and very comparable this year. Kobe had slowed a bit, and wasn't the same defender he was in his prime. This was the first time LeBron made 1st team, and it was do to a renewed focus on that side of the court. LeBron's off the ball play in 09' was also tremendous. He had 7.2 assists at the SF postion too, and his floormanship was excellent the whole year. He won the MVP for many of the reasons I listed. His impact in the Cavs system was greater than Kobe's for the Lakers during the RS. In the playoffs, both led their teams to the Conference Finals. LeBron was 35/9/7 on 51% Fg in the PS. Kobe was 30/5/6 on 46% FG.

So it's exactly the same situation according to your criteria. The only difference is LeBron lost in the ECF, Malone in the Finals (both Kobe and MJ added Finals MVP). But in the 2009 Kobe/Jordan vs. LeBron/Malone scenario you voted for Kobe. In 1997 for Malone. Despite, based on your outlined criteria above, LeBron actually having a larger advantage over Kobe than Malone had over Jordan in both RS and PS criteria (save ECF vs. Finals).

Do you not see that?

I put Lebron at #1 for the RS, BUT Kobe wasn't far off. In the PS, Lebron faced two creampuff teams in the 1st rounds. He played great against them....but against his first quality opponent he faltered. I felt his defensive effort was subpar, that his leadership on court was really bad in the Orlando series, and that in crunchtime he was way too ball-dominant, and didn't look to set guys up in anything but spot up situations. His floormanship on both ends left a lot to be desired. So while his on court production numbers were crazy, they are tempered by the 1 on 5 style he played, where numbers get inflated. I seriously question Lebron's bball IQ those PS games too. His decision making leaves a lot to be desired.

Kobe on the otherhand, had a better PS, and his overall impact was greater and the main factor in why LA beat 3 straight 50+ win opponents in route to the title. Kobe's leadership, and game management, offensive & defensive verastility, all were better than Lebron's. Kobe knew when to get his shots, and when to set up his teammates. Like I said before, this is a TEAM game, and how a player effects & manages the TEAM game is very fundamental to their overall impact. Hell, 2010 Lebron has better "numbers" than Kobe, but I don't think anyone thinks he has had a better PS in 2010. There is so much more to a player than just his boxscore. Especially when that player has the ball in his hands all game long like Lebron.

Malone in 1997, led the Jazz through a 56 win Lakers & 57 win Rockets team. He then lost to a 69 win Bulls team, while putting up 26 & 11. The combo of his stellar RS & PS, is why I put him #1. I don't think Lebron had a stellar PS in 09', which is why I didn't bump him to #1 over Kobe.

[ElGee]

It was a simple yes or no question.

You've made your stance very clear. You have no interest in honest analysis.

93 Barkley
92 Drexler
91 Magic

We get it. I'm done tapping the glass...

[NO-KG-AI]

K, now it's bordering into troll territory.

[Gongxi]

I agree. ElGee has pretty much proven UBF is trolling the project.

[JordansBulls]

BTW, I'm STILL waiting for YOU to explain how MJ was better, and why I'm wrong about 97''. I don't see you adding anything to the discussion.

Also, stop comparing Lebron 09' & Malone 97'. Those are two seperate seasons, and two seperate players.

See this post.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1013855&start=136


It is pretty clear.

[An Unbiased Fan]

It was a simple yes or no question.

You've made your stance very clear. You have no interest in honest analysis.

93 Barkley
92 Drexler
91 Magic

We get it. I'm done tapping the glass...

What hilarious is how I have detailed my reasoning multiple times, yet YOU still have failed to say why MJ was above Malone in 97' to me. I have asked you this a few times already, but you instead continue your strawman probing.

The fatal flaw in your "logic", is that you equate Malone 97' to Lebron 09'. When they're two seperate players, with two seperate seasons. How many ways can I explain this to you????

[An Unbiased Fan]

BTW, I'm STILL waiting for YOU to explain how MJ was better, and why I'm wrong about 97''. I don't see you adding anything to the discussion.

Also, stop comparing Lebron 09' & Malone 97'. Those are two seperate seasons, and two seperate players.

See this post.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1013855&start=136


It is pretty clear.

JB, I already know your thinking on votes, I was referring to Elgee. Can't say I put much weight into PER or WS though. For example, Kobe has been the best player in the 10' PS, but is only #5 in PER, and not even Top 5 in WS.

I agree. ElGee has pretty much proven UBF is trolling the project.

^
Says the guy who put MJ at #2 in 98'. Oh wait, I guess it's only wrong when I do it. Nevermind that MJ had both the MVP & Finals MVP, along with leading his team over the Jazz(who had HCA) with his great performances, and leadership.