Garnett VS Nowitzki-Year By Year Since 2001

[Texas Chuck]

honestly have no idea why this is directed at me--Im the one who wants the matters decided on the court in real time not by some statistical simulation telling me which team will win more games if we play the season out X times.

If that is the case, why did you say that the 2011 Mavericks were better and more impressive than the 2008 Celtics? Did you see them playing a game in real time on the court? Well, no, you didn't, so, how did you try to "prove" your point?

Im simply going on the fact that they faced far stiffer competition in the playoffs and therefore I view the team's accomplishment as slightly more impressive and Dirk's individual performance far more impressive than KGs for a myriad of reasons.

However Im not going to try and prove the unprovable. If you are more impressed by the 08 Celtics playoff run than the Mavs 11 one fine by me. If you think KG's individual performance that year was better than Dirks, fine by me. Id be surprised if you found much support for the latter tho you might well find some for the former.


edit: and it was clear by the context of what you quoting that I was saying that Dirk winning more games in a tougher conference with lesser teammates was more impressive despite your stats saying it was more likely that KG's Celtics would win more games. Which you based on some sort of statistical simulation. Then instead of coming back with a reasonable explanation for how a statistics based model was more accurate than what actually happened you attempt to twist my quote to the absurd==having the 08 Celtics play the 11 Mavs. I cant prove the unprovable and its silly for you to ask me to prove things I dont say.

[mysticbb]

I was NEVER going by simply the the names, and no; it wasn't just that.

No idea, but when you said that you would have taken Nowitzki's teammates everytime over Garnett's teammates in Minnesota, I really think you just went by names and did not actually look HOW they played in different seasons.

You wanted to also make a point about Garnett's teammates in 2005 supposedly being better than Nowitzki's in 2011.

That's why I posted the RAPM numbers, which showed the 2011 Mavericks support to be better than the 2005 Timberwolves support ... :roll:

and lineups/players that Flip Saunders often didn't know how to use properly (and often with Garnett playing alongside them).

So, McHale improved the situation for Garnett?

Once upon a time, I would be someone who would just look at those on-off/RAPM numbers and agree. But that's not my only source of information, FAR from it.

Yeah, sorry, that you once just looked at numbers, I never did that. Maybe that's why I'm much more relaxed when it comes to using numbers. Numbers, here on that forum, are mostly used to illustrate a point, it is just way shorter than writing an essay each time a point should be made.

[mysticbb]

Im simply going on the fact that they faced far stiffer competition in the playoffs and therefore I view the team's accomplishment as slightly more impressive and Dirk's individual performance far more impressive than KGs for a myriad of reasons.

Which obviously has nothing to do with you being emotional attached to the Mavericks?

However Im not going to try and prove the unprovable. If you are more impressed by the 08 Celtics playoff run than the Mavs 11 one fine by me. If you think KG's individual performance that year was better than Dirks, fine by me. Id be surprised if you found much support for the latter tho you might well find some for the former.

I didn't say any of that. I pointed out that the 2008 Celtics with Garnett on the court played at a higher level than any Mavericks team with Nowitzki ever did. That is just a simple fact.

edit: and it was clear by the context of what you quoting that I was saying that Dirk winning more games in a tougher conference with lesser teammates was more impressive despite your stats saying it was more likely that KG's Celtics would win more games.

The 2011 Mavericks won LESS games than the 2008 Celtics. So, no idea what kind of reality you are looking at.

Which you based on some sort of statistical simulation. Then instead of coming back with a reasonable explanation for how a statistics based model was more accurate than what actually happened

I actually explained it. Scoring margin adjusted for strength of schedule is a better predictor for the outcome of future games than the record. Let alone that the Celtics in 2008 won more games than the 2011 Mavericks.

you attempt to twist my quote to the absurd==having the 08 Celtics play the 11 Mavs. I cant prove the unprovable and its silly for you to ask me to prove things I dont say.

Actually, you were the one proclaiming the 2011 Mavericks as better. It was just a matter of time that you start contradicting yourself. Well, you done a good job so far. And the 2008 Lakers played better basketball than any team the Mavericks faced in 2011, it was just not that visible, because the 2008 Celtics played incredible great defense. The 2008 Pistons were as strong as the 2011 Heat, even though you will disagree, because you are just looking at the player names and not how they actually performed in the respective season. And I would argue that there wasn't much of a difference between Nowitzki in 2011 and Garnett in 2008, while a lot of people will likely disagree, because they are rather obsessed with ppg than with defense.

[Flight93]

Year by Year it might be the even, but if you look at the careers of both Garnett and Nowitzki, Garnett has had a better career, simply because of his presence on both ends of the court. Nowitski has been a defensive liability for most of his career. Also, KG has been in the league for a longer period, and his passion is next to none in the history of the league. The way Garnett resonates passion into the crowd, and even fans watching at home is just amazing.

[ahonui06]

Year by Year it might be the even, but if you look at the careers of both Garnett and Nowitzki, Garnett has had a better career, simply because of his presence on both ends of the court. Nowitski has been a defensive liability for most of his career. Also, KG has been in the league for a longer period, and his passion is next to none in the history of the league. The way Garnett resonates passion into the crowd, and even fans watching at home is just amazing.

Not really sure. KG's "passion" is just him screaming and yelling. Don't see what that accomplishes.

[MisterWestside]

No idea, but when you said that you would have taken Nowitzki's teammates everytime over Garnett's teammates in Minnesota, I really think you just went by names and did not actually look HOW they played in different seasons.

Not true. I even remember the 04/05 seasons in particular, because 04 was when they went to the WCF - I rooted for the Wolves and KG especially over the then "superteam" Lakers. I picked them to get to the Finals in 05, and watched many of their games.

That's why I posted the RAPM numbers, which showed the 2011 Mavericks support to be better than the 2005 Timberwolves support ...

And again, I disagree, despite what the numbers show.

So, McHale improved the situation for Garnett?

Maybe that's why I'm much more relaxed when it comes to using numbers.

Whatever works for you. I use them along with game-watching, not as a substitute.

I know what I watched that season. Give me Nowitzki's 2011 teammates and coach. That Wolves fiasco helped lead to the Garnett trade; there was a bunch of team dysfunction in 2005.

[Dr Pepper]

Year by Year it might be the even, but if you look at the careers of both Garnett and Nowitzki, Garnett has had a better career, simply because of his presence on both ends of the court. Nowitski has been a defensive liability for most of his career. Also, KG has been in the league for a longer period, and his passion is next to none in the history of the league. The way Garnett resonates passion into the crowd, and even fans watching at home is just amazing.

KG's theatrics and passion have also worked against him, like being suspended for a playoffs game for getting into a fight with a smaller player (even as a veteran Celtic). Or fighting against his own teammates and getting shat on through twitter for sucking in the clutch. Or technicals. KG also pushes the refs each game with the illegal screens he sets, and he tests the refs in general, which can also work against his team

Accolades, Dirk's got the coveted Finals MVP and also the unofficial honor of leading a ragtag team to the championship much like Hakeem did. Dirk was the key force in sweeping the Lakers and making Gasol look like a rookie and took the Heat out of their comfort zone

KG also eats up too much franchise $$$ and set records for his contract, Dirk's been willing to take less to help build his team. Goes to show just how passionate Dirk is in his own right.

[ahonui06]

Not true. I even remember the 04/05 seasons in particular, because 04 was when they went to the WCF - I rooted for the Wolves and KG especially over the then "superteam" Lakers. I picked them to get to the Finals in 05, and watched many of their games.

Picked them to go the Finals in 2005 and yet KG couldn't even lead them to the postseason. Way off there.

[Texas Chuck]

I dont think either player has any edge in passion,heart,desire,competiteness etc. KG's personality is such that he is much more vocal, expressive, and emotional on the court. Dirk is German where those traits are typically frowned upon. He simply goes to work.

There is obv value in both approaches and I think most guys who have played with them loved it. Yeah KG is probably slightly less beloved because he can more of an a-hole but I have no doubt hes just as respected by teammates as Dirk.

[MisterWestside]

Picked them to go the Finals in 2005 and yet KG couldn't even lead them to the postseason. Way off there.

Better than winning 67 games and an MVP in 2007 only to get bounced by the 8th-seed Warriors

[Texas Chuck]

Picked them to go the Finals in 2005 and yet KG couldn't even lead them to the postseason. Way off there.

Better than winning 67 games and an MVP in 2007 only to get bounced by the 8th-seed Warriors

yep missing the playoffs 3 straight years in your prime is what every franchise player dreams of. Wink.

[MisterWestside]

yep missing the playoffs 3 straight years in your prime is what every franchise player dreams of. Wink.

I don't blame Dirk or KG for those seasons though. I don't compare by using team wins.

Our so-called but not actual Celtics fan/Dirk fan wants to talk about disappointments though, so I just thought to remind him of that. Tooth.

[Texas Chuck]

of course you dont blame KG for those seasons and of course you choose to ignore team wins. eyeroll. otoh I definitely blame Dirk for the GSW debacle. He was our best player, he had no answers for being guarded by smaller athletic players and he was outplayed by their best player BD by a sizable margin. Ive never bought into the weak argument that Avery changed the lineup and got outcoached by Nellie. That series is mainly on Dirk.

[ahonui06]

yep missing the playoffs 3 straight years in your prime is what every franchise player dreams of. Wink.

I don't blame Dirk or KG for those seasons though. I don't compare by using team wins.

Our so-called but not actual Celtics fan/Dirk fan wants to talk about disappointments though, so I just thought to remind him of that. Tooth.

What does KG from 2005 through 2007 have to do with Boston? He played for Minnesota. I'm glad KG is on the Celtics because he helped them win a title in 2008 and also helped them win another in 2010. The only other PFs I rather have in Boston are Duncan or DIRK.

[WhateverBro]

of course you dont blame KG for those seasons and of course you choose to ignore team wins. eyeroll. otoh I definitely blame Dirk for the GSW debacle. He was our best player, he had no answers for being guarded by smaller athletic players and he was outplayed by their best player BD by a sizable margin. Ive never bought into the weak argument that Avery changed the lineup and got outcoached by Nellie. That series is mainly on Dirk.

I don't think anyone is ignoring team wins but this comparasion is between two players which is why it doesn't make sense looking at how many games they won rather than what kind of impact they had on their teams. All you're doing is penalizing a players individual performance for the play of his teammates.

[WhateverBro]

KG's theatrics and passion have also worked against him, like being suspended for a playoffs game for getting into a fight with a smaller player (even as a veteran Celtic). Or fighting against his own teammates and getting shat on through twitter for sucking in the clutch. Or technicals. KG also pushes the refs each game with the illegal screens he sets, and he tests the refs in general, which can also work against his team

Accolades, Dirk's got the coveted Finals MVP and also the unofficial honor of leading a ragtag team to the championship much like Hakeem did. Dirk was the key force in sweeping the Lakers and making Gasol look like a rookie and took the Heat out of their comfort zone

KG also eats up too much franchise $$$ and set records for his contract, Dirk's been willing to take less to help build his team. Goes to show just how passionate Dirk is in his own right.

Garnett has been suspended for playoff games a total of 1 time. Is it really that much of a big deal? He punched Rick Rickert after he was sitting hard screens on Garnett during a pre-season practice. IIRC the reports were saying that Garnett told him repeatedly to stop but he didn't so he got punched. This thing is so small it ain't even funny yet someone is bringing it up 8 years later which I find hilarious. Rick Rickert didn't even make the team so to call him a teammate is even false. Even Jordan punched Kerr once for Gods sakes.

And like I told you before, the Szczerbiak twitter attack against Garnett was from a hacked account yet you're continuing spreading lies.

And I've addressed the Garnett money situation too. Yes, he's made the most money in the NBA of all-time. This mainly comes from him becoming eligible for a max contract at the exact right time which allowed him to make alot of money his first contract. Since then, he's taken a paycut during his last three extensions. To say that Garnett hasn't given up money to allow his franchise to build a team is simply laughable, how do you think Minnesota netted Cassell and Sprewell in the first place?

[ahonui06]

of course you dont blame KG for those seasons and of course you choose to ignore team wins. eyeroll. otoh I definitely blame Dirk for the GSW debacle. He was our best player, he had no answers for being guarded by smaller athletic players and he was outplayed by their best player BD by a sizable margin. Ive never bought into the weak argument that Avery changed the lineup and got outcoached by Nellie. That series is mainly on Dirk.

I don't think anyone is ignoring team wins but this comparasion is between two players which is why it doesn't make sense looking at how many games they won rather than what kind of impact they had on their teams. All you're doing is penalizing a players individual performance for the play of his teammates.

I think it's just a difference of opinion. Chuck and myself value winning over impact whereas some other posters don't value team success/winning as highly when comparing players.

Nothing wrong with different people having different criteria to value players.

[mysticbb]

Not true. I even remember the 04/05 seasons in particular, because 04 was when they went to the WCF - I rooted for the Wolves and KG especially over the then "superteam" Lakers. I picked them to get to the Finals in 05, and watched many of their games.

Do you remember that the 2005 Mavericks also had trouble with injuries? Injuries which forced them to play Henderson as their starter for 10+ games? Do you remember that the Mavericks also had "coaching trouble", which ended in a coaching change from Don Nelson to Avery Johnson? You might remember stuff which happened on the Timberwolves and you are quick to adress problems to everyone else (except Garnett), but you don't look at other teams. Saying, that you would take any team around Nowitzki over anything Garnett had in Minnesota is just a testament to that. Sorry, but the 1999 Mavericks around Nowitzki weren't a great cast, especially when we compare the performance level of the players with those of the 1998 Timberwolves or 2005 Timberwolves.

That's why I posted the RAPM numbers, which showed the 2011 Mavericks support to be better than the 2005 Timberwolves support ... :roll:

And again, I disagree, despite what the numbers show.

Does that mean you think the 2011 Mavericks were worse than the 2005 Timberwolves?

So, McHale improved the situation for Garnett?

:hoop:

That is interesting, because Garnett's On-Court value didn't change much (1.6 to 2.0), but the off-court value changed from -3.6 (under Saunders) to +7.1 (under McHale). In fact, the Timberwolves played better basketball that season under McHale when Garnett was off the court, while it was the other way around under Saunders. McHale did not improve the situation for Garnett, he improved that for the rest of the players.

Whatever works for you. I use them along with game-watching, not as a substitute.

I never said that I use them as some sort of "substitute". Read carefully. I wrote that I use numbers here on the forum to make a point, because it takes less time. When I evaluate player I actually look at much more than just the numbers, including skills, fit, energy, etc. pp.

I know what I watched that season. Give me Nowitzki's 2011 teammates and coach. That Wolves fiasco helped lead to the Garnett trade; there was a bunch of team dysfunction in 2005.

With Garnett having nothing to do with that, obviously. :roll:

[mysticbb]

Nothing wrong with different people having different criteria to value players.

It is weird, because you were rather quick attributing losses of the Mavericks to everyone else except of Nowitzki (coaches, Terry, Kidd, etc. pp). Why don't you give Garnett the same benefit of doubt? Do you think Nowitzki with a bunch of even worse players around him would have achieved anything? You know that the success of a team is depending on the overall team performance, that includes the performance level of the teammates as well.

What you are confusing is the team success with player value. You are saying which team was better, but unless you believe that each player on the winning team was better than every player on the losing team, your "different criteria" is really arbritrary and inconsistent.

Also, it is silly to use the 2005 Timberwolves missing the playoffs as an example. They missed the playoffs while winning 44 games. That 8 teams of a respective conference win more games is rather the exception than the rule.

[WhateverBro]

That is interesting, because Garnett's On-Court value didn't change much (1.6 to 2.0), but the off-court value changed from -3.6 (under Saunders) to +7.1 (under McHale). In fact, the Timberwolves played better basketball that season under McHale when Garnett was off the court, while it was the other way around under Saunders. McHale did not improve the situation for Garnett, he improved that for the rest of the players.

Well, your numbers show that the situation did improve for Garnett (1.6 to 2.0) although not by much. But yes, everyone knows the team drastically improved under McHale but the obvious reason for this was the trade deadline passing. As I mentioned earlier Cassell and Spree pretty much sabotaged the team early on by wanting either an extension or trade. One could also argue that McHale did improve the situation for Garnett by maximizing the team while Garnett was on the bench which would lead to Garnett not having to carry as big of a load as usually. In hindsight, McHale is getting an awful lot of credit for doing basically nothing new. It was Cassell and Spree who turned some people against Flip and dogged it, a la Vince before the NJ trade. McHale simply stepped in when no one could get traded anymore so instead some of the players decided to play to as well as they could instead of wanting a trade which lead to the 19-12 finish of the regular season.

With Garnett having nothing to do with that, obviously.

Lol, do you mean that Garnett had something to do with some players tanking it? All reports from back then was that Garnett pressured Minny to handle the contracts in the off-season and they didn't deliver. He then told the players to worry about their contracts in the coming off-season, since Garnett is a well-documented non-believer in negotiating during the season. If anything, he tried to do what he could to avoid the situation but McHale messed up in not extending Cassell right away.