#7 Highest Peak of All Time (Bird '86 wins)

[therealbig3]

Really disagree with Duncan having the lead here, and like I said, I am a huge Duncan fan. But when I was discussing Hakeem vs Duncan before, I came to the conclusion that neither guy was better than peak Bird or peak Magic (debating LeBron vs Bird with ElGee was pretty fun too, and I did learn a lot about Bird).

So as it stands, since I do agree that it's become an "anybody but LeBron" mentality, at least from some people, I'll change my vote to Bird before the deadline...unless of course someone votes for LeBron.

[therealbig3]

Do people think that Duncan was in his defensive peak in 03? Was he better from 98-02 or 04-07 than 03? Duncan might have been a better player in 01, 02, and 04, only he got the right matchups in the playoffs so thats considered his peak.

I think it's definitely between 02 and 03. He was at his offensive and defensive peak in both of those seasons imo.

He was at his best defensively from 98-03, he just moved so much better. He was at his offensive peak in 02 and 03.

[bastillon]

Updating the last list:

03 Duncan - 5 (Dr Positivity, C-izMe, JordansBulls, drza, Josephpaul)

09 LeBron - 4 (therealbig3, colts18, Doctor MJ, DavidStern)

86 Bird - 4 (ElGee, PTB Fan, bastillon, ThaRegul8r)

87 Magic - 1 (ardee)

I guess fatal9 voted for Bird ?

[therealbig3]

Also, still not buying the argument that 2012 LeBron is better than 2009 LeBron. 2009 LeBron had no weaknesses, since he developed into an excellent midrange shooter. So saying that 07 and 08 LeBron "got exposed" has no bearing on 09 LeBron.

And LeBron's issues in 10 and 11 were more mental than some inherent flaw in his game, or maybe the other team just played great defense. Either way, he was way more aggressive in 09 than in 10 and 11, which is why he was so dominant in 09.

And yeah, I don't see why it's so clear that LeBron is better defensively in 12 than in 09, it's just that people focused more on it. He played awesome defense in 09 as well (we're really picking apart one series throughout the whole year? And I don't even think his defense was that bad anyway).

Overall, I think LeBron in 09 was slightly better on either side of the ball. I don't think it's crazy to pick 12, since he did improve his post game, and you could make the case he was better defensively...but even then, he posted up plenty in 09 as well. And it was just a joke how easily he was getting into the lane in 09, he really didn't need to post up.

[Doctor MJ]

A 67 win team that can be swept by an 8 seed is a false idol. Simple as that. The team made choices that max'ed out their win total while leaving them an achilles heel, to insist that Dirk should be judged for the good without the bad is simply not something an objective person would do.

Of course, when I say this, I'm not simply speaking to the team results - though those are clearly relevant to your original post - but that fact that Dirk looked absolutely hideous in the series. In fact he was so thoroughly exposed by the Warriors, that he learned quite a bit from it, and eventually became the expert high post hub that led a legit team to the title.

sorry to bring this up, but this is exactly what I was trying to say earlier. funny how Dirk 06 often gets talked about as his best version despite that people realise how he got exposed in 07. you acknowledge this exposure as well and you realise how he improved over the next couple years to become a much better low post player which was key element of that 11 championship run. yet you stay blind with the same set of circumstances with LeBron. LeBron got exposed by Spurs 07, Celtics 08, Celtics 10 and Mavs 11 because he didn't have post game and isolations were easy to stop with the right defensive scheme. yet you believe that somehow LeBron 09 retrospectively learned how to deal with those problems and managed to overcome those obstacles against a typical #1 defensive team. do you honestly believe that it was LeBron being a much better player in 09, not that Orlando played poor defense ? LeBron 07-08 and 10-11 got exposed as fundamentally flawed player. post game is what seperated him from being a truly GOAT-level player. adding post-game and improving the defense were two of the main reasons why Miami won a title this year. what makes this so funny to me, is that you actually acknowledge Dirk's improvement but the very same rule doesn't apply to LeBron. just looks like a huge double standard.

I'm not making a comparable statement about LeBron's improvement. Perhaps I'm wrong not to, but it's not how I currently see it.

The Mavs lost to a really, really weak team using a strategy that made Dirk look really awful. Dirk's improvement was thus working directly on what made him let his team down.

The Cavs lost to a very solid team that happened to be shooting from distance well above their level (they got "hot" for lack of a better term), and in that series, LeBron looked like a freaking unstoppable titan among men. I don't know how anyone looks at that series and says, "Aha, that's how you shut LeBron down."

Yes, LeBron did subsequently make an improvement, but that improvement wasn't to correct a problem that happened in Cleveland. He was responding to what role he should take in Miami where they had two fantastic scorers, one of whom played almost the same offensive role as him. It's almost akin to a football player moving to right tackle simply because the team already has a good left tackle. it's impressive, technically it makes him a better all around player, but the skill is virtually irrelevant to stuff that happened before the other left tackle was around.

So suffice to say, I still don't think LeBron wins a title in either of his last two years with the Cavs if he had today's skills, and neither would any other player who ever lived.

[therealbig3]

Updating the last list:

03 Duncan - 5 (Dr Positivity, C-izMe, JordansBulls, drza, Josephpaul)

09 LeBron - 4 (therealbig3, colts18, Doctor MJ, DavidStern)

86 Bird - 4 (ElGee, PTB Fan, bastillon, ThaRegul8r)

87 Magic - 1 (ardee)

I guess fatal9 voted for Bird ?

I didn't know he was on the panel. I don't think he is.

[Dr Positivity]

Duncan beating Bird isn't because an "anyone but Lebron" attitude. I'm reading through the thread and colts voted Lebron but said he'd go Duncan after, drza is saying "one of the bigs or Magic", JordansBulls says he has Magic 4 Duncan 5 and Bird 8, and JosephPaul's original vote was for Magic before switching it to Duncan. So there's a trend of people jumping off Magic, which means they're choosing between the 3 players in contention - and I don't see anything wrong with that, if it's close a pseudo run-off of these voters is exactly what should be happening. It would be an issue if Bird voters were switching to Duncan to keep Lebron off the list but that's not happening.

[bastillon]

Do people think that Duncan was in his defensive peak in 03? Was he better from 98-02 or 04-07 than 03? Duncan might have been a better player in 01, 02, and 04, only he got the right matchups in the playoffs so thats considered his peak.

I think it's definitely between 02 and 03. He was at his offensive and defensive peak in both of those seasons imo.

He was at his best defensively from 98-03, he just moved so much better. He was at his offensive peak in 02 and 03.

you're overstating this so much. almost as if Duncan pre-04 was unbeatable and never disappointed and then turned into permenantly injured with half the speed he previously had. is there any actual evidence you could provide that there was much of a difference ?

I guess overall 02 was his best year, but he became much more of a leader in 03, particularly with the game on the line.

I rarely agree with the peak year:
Hakeem - 93
Shaq - 01
Duncan - 02
KG - 03
Dirk - 11
LeBron - 12

[colts18]

Do people think that Duncan was in his defensive peak in 03? Was he better from 98-02 or 04-07 than 03? Duncan might have been a better player in 01, 02, and 04, only he got the right matchups in the playoffs so thats considered his peak.

I think it's definitely between 02 and 03. He was at his offensive and defensive peak in both of those seasons imo.

He was at his best defensively from 98-03, he just moved so much better. He was at his offensive peak in 02 and 03.

you're overstating this so much. almost as if Duncan pre-04 was unbeatable and never disappointed and then turned into permenantly injured with half the speed he previously had. is there any actual evidence you could provide that there was much of a difference ?

I guess overall 02 was his best year, but he became much more of a leader in 03, particularly with the game on the line.

I rarely agree with the peak year:
Hakeem - 93
Shaq - 01
Duncan - 02
KG - 03
Dirk - 11
LeBron - 12

Shaq's peak is 01 if you only take playoffs into consideration. His 00 was better from start to finish.

I think Dirk was probably in his peak in 03 or 05-07, but 11 could be considered his peak because it was his best season, but he was a better player in 06.

[Doctor MJ]

I didn't know he was on the panel. I don't think he is.

He's not on the panel, although, fatal, if you're interested, let me know.

[therealbig3]

Duncan beating Bird isn't because an "anyone but Lebron" attitude. I'm reading through the thread and colts voted Lebron but said he'd go Duncan after, drza is saying "one of the bigs or Magic", JordansBulls says he has Magic 4 Duncan 5 and Bird 8, and JosephPaul's original vote was for Magic before switching it to Duncan. So there's a trend of people jumping off Magic, which means they're choosing between the 3 players in contention - and I don't see anything wrong with that, if it's close a pseudo run-off of these voters is exactly what should be happening. It would be an issue if Bird voters were switching to Duncan to keep Lebron off the list but that's not happening.

I really don't mean to call anyone out, but Josephpaul never once switched his vote from 71 Kareem (even when he had no chance), unless it was to 77 Kareem...but now he goes with 85 Magic, and then when LeBron has a lead and his closest competition is Duncan, he suddenly switches to 03 Duncan?

And you've got players getting voted in out of nowhere, like Hakeem or Kareem (who really had no discussion before they got voted in). And bastillon has made it very clear that he doesn't agree with 09 LeBron, and even voted for Duncan for a while there (I did a double-take when I saw that) just so that LeBron wouldn't be voted in (so he would count as one of the Bird voters to switch to Duncan, but then switched back to Bird when he saw that Bird could still win).

I'm obviously not saying everyone not voting for LeBron is doing so just to keep him off the list, there are definitely legitimate arguments for others, but it does seem strange that players who got minimal discussion all of a sudden get a ton of votes after LeBron builds up a lead and then get voted in...and it's not even players you would expect...I would have never thought Hakeem or Duncan would get voted in over Bird or Magic. Sure, I knew some people felt that way, but I didn't think they'd get 5 or 6 votes, while Bird and Magic get 1-2.

It's just a little frustrating to see that trend.

[therealbig3]

Do people think that Duncan was in his defensive peak in 03? Was he better from 98-02 or 04-07 than 03? Duncan might have been a better player in 01, 02, and 04, only he got the right matchups in the playoffs so thats considered his peak.

I think it's definitely between 02 and 03. He was at his offensive and defensive peak in both of those seasons imo.

He was at his best defensively from 98-03, he just moved so much better. He was at his offensive peak in 02 and 03.

you're overstating this so much. almost as if Duncan pre-04 was unbeatable and never disappointed and then turned into permenantly injured with half the speed he previously had. is there any actual evidence you could provide that there was much of a difference ?

I guess overall 02 was his best year, but he became much more of a leader in 03, particularly with the game on the line.

I rarely agree with the peak year:
Hakeem - 93
Shaq - 01
Duncan - 02
KG - 03
Dirk - 11
LeBron - 12

I don't have the evidence on me right now, I'll try to remember to look it up for you, but I'm speaking from watching a lot of Duncan throughout his career, and no, he wasn't some cripple after 03, but he did start getting hit with injuries in 04 and 05, especially with plantar fascitis, which really took a lot of his mobility away. I remember Duncan actually being decently athletic in his earlier years, but then somewhere along the line, he became a slow, plodding, unathletic player who relied mainly on his skills.

When did Duncan pre-04 disappoint btw? 98, 99, 01, 02, 03..these are all great playoff runs. He didn't play all that great against the Lakers in 01, but I'd say that was more the Lakers being a way better team than Duncan being slowed down by Grant. And he had two great games, and two mediocre games. Not exactly enough to say he got slowed down.

Also, ElGee has mentioned the same thing regarding Duncan physically pre-04.

[Doctor MJ]

Duncan beating Bird isn't because an "anyone but Lebron" attitude. I'm reading through the thread and colts voted Lebron but said he'd go Duncan after, drza is saying "one of the bigs or Magic", JordansBulls says he has Magic 4 Duncan 5 and Bird 8, and JosephPaul's original vote was for Magic before switching it to Duncan. So there's a trend of people jumping off Magic, which means they're choosing between the 3 players in contention - and I don't see anything wrong with that, if it's close a pseudo run-off of these voters is exactly what should be happening. It would be an issue if Bird voters were switching to Duncan to keep Lebron off the list but that's not happening.

No, it's more complicated than that, and the proof is right in what you mentioned:

Those are 3 people who have jumped off the Magic bandwagon in a vote which at the time had LeBron in the lead with 4 votes. They let the fact that Duncan got two quick votes persuade them that he was in the runoff, and now those 3 Magic converts make up the majority of the Duncan contingency.

Had they simply stuck to their guns, Magic would be ahead of Duncan, no worse than one vote behind LeBron, and very much in the "runoff". They didn't, so in essence what this group of 5 has done is side for the preference of 2 over the preference of the other 3. This is the problem with strategic voting in a nutshell, and why people need to be careful using it or they will actually make their preferences have less weight than if they didn't try to strategize at all.

[colts18]

Duncan beating Bird isn't because an "anyone but Lebron" attitude. I'm reading through the thread and colts voted Lebron but said he'd go Duncan after, drza is saying "one of the bigs or Magic", JordansBulls says he has Magic 4 Duncan 5 and Bird 8, and JosephPaul's original vote was for Magic before switching it to Duncan. So there's a trend of people jumping off Magic, which means they're choosing between the 3 players in contention - and I don't see anything wrong with that, if it's close a pseudo run-off of these voters is exactly what should be happening. It would be an issue if Bird voters were switching to Duncan to keep Lebron off the list but that's not happening.

No, it's more complicated than that, and the proof is right in what you mentioned:

Those are 3 people who have jumped off the Magic bandwagon in a vote which at the time had LeBron in the lead with 4 votes. They let the fact that Duncan got two quick votes persuade them that he was in the runoff, and now those 3 Magic converts make up the majority of the Duncan contingency.

Had they simply stuck to their guns, Magic would be ahead of Duncan, no worse than one vote behind LeBron, and very much in the "runoff". They didn't, so in essence what this group of 5 has done is side for the preference of 2 over the preference of the other 3. This is the problem with strategic voting in a nutshell, and why people need to be careful using it or they will actually make their preferences have less weight than if they didn't try to strategize at all.

Solution: 1 vote per round. Or your only allowed to change vote within 1 hour of making a vote.

[C-izMe]

I have no problem with the runoff because my last two votes have been Hakeem and Duncan .

[GrangerDanger]

Some food for thought. Below are the stats against real defense for two players, one who is about to be voted in, the other who won't sniff the top 300 peaks.

Player A: 23.4 ppg/8.9 rpg/5.5apg/.505 TS%/ worst defensive player in the league/18.9 PER

Player B: 20.9 ppg/5.5 rpg/5.9 apg/ .488TS%/ worst defensive player in the league/18.3 PER

Again, this is each player's peak seasons against real defenses. If you vote for one of them, the other should be voted in soon as well

[Doctor MJ]

[
Solution: 1 vote per round. Or your only allowed to change vote within 1 hour of making a vote.

I'm going to re-quote you over on the Project page. I don't mind some of this meta-discussion happening here, but I'd like the solutions to all be in the same place.

[Doctor MJ]

Some food for thought. Below are the stats against real defense for two players, one who is about to be voted in, the other who won't sniff the top 300 peaks.

Player A: 23.4 ppg/8.9 rpg/5.5apg/.505 TS%/ worst defensive player in the league/18.9 PER

Player B: 20.9 ppg/5.5 rpg/5.9 apg/ .488TS%/ worst defensive player in the league/18.3 PER

Again, this is each player's peak seasons against real defenses. If you vote for one of them, the other should be voted in soon as well

I don't know what to do with this information dude. Elaborate.

[Woodsanity]

I don't see how anyone can honestly vote for Bird. He was a fairly poor playoff performer(with only 2-3 great playoffs) and his regular season performance is nowhere near good enough to rank him #7 highest peak. If you can argue Bird you should be able to argue Kobe as well who was the better two way player and playoff performer. Lebron 09 and Duncan 03 dominated the regular season and playoffs. They were more impactful and did not play on stacked teams.

You are aware that we are not discussing all time rankings, rather all-time PEAK rankings?

You are aware that in '86 Bird was the KEY of arguably the GOAT team?

You are aware that the Celtics ripped off a 39-5 stretch during which Bird had a PER of over 32?

You are aware that Bird had a 26-9-8 playoffs on 50-40-90 shooting, and averaged a triple double in the Finals?

You are aware that thats still not good enough to rank him 7th highest all time in terms of peak? Duncan 03 and Lebron 09 were better in the regular season and postseason.

[GrangerDanger]

Some food for thought. Below are the stats against real defense for two players, one who is about to be voted in, the other who won't sniff the top 300 peaks.

Player A: 23.4 ppg/8.9 rpg/5.5apg/.505 TS%/ worst defensive player in the league/18.9 PER

Player B: 20.9 ppg/5.5 rpg/5.9 apg/ .488TS%/ worst defensive player in the league/18.3 PER

Again, this is each player's peak seasons against real defenses. If you vote for one of them, the other should be voted in soon as well

I don't know what to do with this information dude. Elaborate.

Two players best season's when handchecking was still allowed. I'm fairly suspect of perimeter players post 2004. While I still think very highly of Nash, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc., I do think that the rules and systems of teams nowadays overstates their impact. I just feel that present player's stats are taken at face value too often and not adjusted for how much easier it is for wings and guards to put up gaudy box score and impact stats in a league that caters to them. My two cents