RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #1 (LeBron James)

[freethedevil]

I ask again for elaboration, because I've never heard that Kareem was close to "costing his team Magic".

Kareem aggressively protested the lakers trading for magic and was annoyed about magic getting a bigger role in the offense. Than magic went and started a **** coup in the press.

Really the OG Shaq+Kobe

I haven't heard anything about that and if you read this article, it seems that Magic was more happy with trading Kareem than the other way:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-01-08-sp-2903-story.html

It was also Magic who demanded a trade in case of not firing Paul Westhead. Young Magic was a lot harder to deal with than most realize...

might have misremembered then. Magic was definitely the more culpable party tbf.

[Jordan Syndrome]

After reading some brilliant posts here, I am going to be changing my order of 2 and 3. I have never viewed Jordan as less than #2 but I can't argue with some of the greatness in this thread.

1. LeBron James
2. Bill Russell
3. Michael Jordan

[70sFan]

After reading some brilliant posts here, I am going to be changing my order of 2 and 3. I have never viewed Jordan as less than #2 but I can't argue with some of the greatness in this thread.

1. LeBron James
2. Bill Russell
3. Michael Jordan

It's so nice to hear someone changing his opinion, especially when it comes to Russell>Jordan

[Joao Saraiva]

2009 is LeBron's best regular season. He was also amazing in the first two rounds of the play-offs but his heroball on sub-par efficiency in the ECF makes it difficult to see it as better than 2012, 2013, 2016 or 2018.

38.5 PPG at 59.1ts% is subpar efficiency?

I gotta say you definitely didn't watch the series. Go ahead, it's on youtube.

Don't be a dick.

I'm sorry if it ofends you but nothing supports your claim.

[RSCD3_]

Had a whole post and then select all and click deleted the whole thing


1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar


In terms of Michael Jordan I see him as one of the most reliable offensive anchors of all time combined with above average defense for most of his entire career. During his prime he could basically do everything on offense, penetrate, go to the post, cut, facilitate, offensive rebound and score in transition. The main thing that made him so deadly was not just his huge skillset but also the fact that he was ruthless and efficient in how he used said skillset. I think his portability is great and he has the tools to play in most any era. In terms of total value accumulated, I might have LeBron slightly ahead but with his tools and mind I still have more trust in Jordan. Not a perfect player but he was as close as anyone imo.

For LeBron I think he's the closest thing we have to lebron, another two way player but one whose frequently been relied on to do more of everything for his team and has lived up to their expectations more often then not. He's also had his athleticism and strength to get to the paint via pick and roll but since miami he morphed his playstyle several times to get him opportunities to score without using all his energy to drive. I feel like lebron's mind is incredibly intuitive but I question if sometimes it can work too well and he puts the proverbial cart in front of the horse and you get the occasional "wth was that" play which upon revision can be gleamed as stuff he saw that would have been a great idea if the other person saw it as well. He's a great player and recently he's been more instinctual with how he attacks defenses and that's a big reason why he has remained so efficient post 2016. Even despite this I feel he could easily be #1 and that's because he just does so much, he can be whatever is needed for a team and I have s ton of trust in his later rprime in terms of offensive resiliency at maybe the expense of athleticism and motor.

Kareem has a similarly huge amount of longevity but I see his prime as noticeably below lebron and michael. He had a lot more defensive impact stating off but by the time he was in his offensive prime that impact lessened to the point were both lebron and micheal had a large enough advantage over him on that end. He definitely gets a lot of credit for his longevity and I'd love to see how a career with him starting at 19 looks but as he was, was still a very versatile two way player with tons of longevity

[70sFan]

He had a lot more defensive impact stating off but by the time he was in his offensive prime that impact lessened to the point were both lebron and micheal had a large enough advantage over him on that end.

Kareem was absolutely DPOY level of defender in 1976-79 - in period I'd call his offensive peak as well. He slightly declined in 1980 but not to the degree to have him any less than all-defensive level. Not to mention that Kareem in 1971-74 was still a monster offensive player, the gap isn't large between any of 1970s Kareem versions.

LeBron didn't peak on offense and defense at the same time either.

[Jordan Syndrome]

After reading some brilliant posts here, I am going to be changing my order of 2 and 3. I have never viewed Jordan as less than #2 but I can't argue with some of the greatness in this thread.

1. LeBron James
2. Bill Russell
3. Michael Jordan

It's so nice to hear someone changing his opinion, especially when it comes to Russell>Jordan

I was always high on him but he is difficult to assess. I think what put him over the top was, aside from an earlier post in this thread, his unwillingness to quit in 1968 and 1969. It is something I had been thinking about the past few days and when I went to bed last night...well tried to go to bed...I was thinking about why is Jordan ahead of Russell if their "primes" [which I highlighted earlier] were similar and Russell was adding two more years of All-time great play.

When doing research for this project I was blown away by how much he improved the Celtics defensively as a rookie.

[Odinn21]

I haven't heard anything about that and if you read this article, it seems that Magic was more happy with trading Kareem than the other way:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-01-08-sp-2903-story.html

It was also Magic who demanded a trade in case of not firing Paul Westhead. Young Magic was a lot harder to deal with than most realize...

This is also a decent read;
https://vault.si.com/vault/1981/11/30/dont-blame-me-i-just-want-to-have-fun-the-lakers-were-winning-but-magic-johnson-and-the-owner-were-not-enjoying-it-solution-can-the-coach

Buss announcing that he had signed Magic for 25 million USD over 25 years, 2 months after the loss to the Rockets in '81, was the only time Kareem raised his voice about a situation regarding Magic (AFAIK).
Mind you, Kareem was yet to break 1 million per year mark and the league average was around 190k. That was quite the contract.

[Dutchball97]

38.5 PPG at 59.1ts% is subpar efficiency?

I gotta say you definitely didn't watch the series. Go ahead, it's on youtube.

Don't be a dick.

I'm sorry if it ofends you but nothing supports your claim.

Scroll back a bit, I already explained my point of view. Funny how I literally only als you keep it civil and you can't even manage to do that. GOAT debates really bring out the worst in some people.

[Joao Saraiva]

Don't be a dick.

I'm sorry if it ofends you but nothing supports your claim.

Scroll back a bit, I already explained my point of view. Funny how I literally only als you keep it civil and you can't even manage to do that. GOAT debates really bring out the worst in some people.

Nothing I said suggests anything that wasn't civil. However, some of what you said suggests that. So you might think about what you said and see if it doesn't fit you better. All I said was basketball related.

[DQuinn1575]

Kareem on the other hand nearly cost his team magic johnson

I ask again for elaboration, because I've never heard that Kareem was close to "costing his team Magic".

Kareem aggressively protested the lakers trading for magic and was annoyed about magic getting a bigger role in the offense. Than magic went and started a **** coup in the press.

Really the OG Shaq+Kobe

About what year did this occur? I don't ever remember hearing this.

[limbo]

In terms of Michael Jordan I see him as one of the most reliable offensive anchors of all time combined with above average defense for most of his entire career. During his prime he could basically do everything on offense, penetrate, go to the post, cut, facilitate, offensive rebound and score in transition. The main thing that made him so deadly was not just his huge skillset but also the fact that he was ruthless and efficient in how he used said skillset. I think his portability is great and he has the tools to play in most any era. In terms of total value accumulated, I might have LeBron slightly ahead but with his tools and mind I still have more trust in Jordan. Not a perfect player but he was as close as anyone imo.

How is Jordan a more reliable offensive anchor than LeBron? I went over their Playoff numbers and their scoring is actually quite comparable. Jordan would score at a bit higher volume but the efficiency edge goes to LeBron. Unless you wanna isolate specific periods or extreme examples in their careers...

Like for instance, comparing MJ's 87-91 seasons with LeBron's 07-11 seasons... in which case, it is true that at that point of both players respective careers, Jordan was a more reliable offensive anchor mostly because his scoring ability was better at that point in time to LeBron's.

If we compare 1992 & 1993 to 2012 & 2013, i would still go with Jordan for offense, but the gap has definitely visibly closed, and when you account for LeBron's versatility and defensive edge in those seasons.

2014,2016,2017,2018 and 2020 is actually LeBron's peak offensive resilience years, imo, and they stack up well against the Top 5 Jordan seasons in that sense, imo.

So really, if we're talking about offensive anchor resiliency, MJ's 87-91 should be stacking up to LeBron's 14-20 (minus '15 and '19) while 1992 and 1993 against 2012 and 2013 are kind of a wash. And Jordan's 96-98 run is compared to LeBron's 09-11 run if we're ranking it in terms of offensive reliability/resilience.

The problem after that is that Jordan doesn't have anything left worthwhile to stack, while LeBron has 2006,2007,2008 and 2015.

[ZemGOAT]

1. Michael Jordan - GOAT peak/prime. Best in terms of accolades besides Kareem/Russell.

2. LeBron James
3. Kareem

[Dutchball97]

I'm sorry if it ofends you but nothing supports your claim.

Scroll back a bit, I already explained my point of view. Funny how I literally only als you keep it civil and you can't even manage to do that. GOAT debates really bring out the worst in some people.

Nothing I said suggests anything that wasn't civil. However, some of what you said suggests that. So you might think about what you said and see if it doesn't fit you better. All I said was basketball related.

You dismissed my opinion, saying I must have not watched the series. If you don't value my opinion because I think LeBron is #2 All-Time instead of #1 there isn't a lot to gain from having a conversation with you either.

On a side note, people bashing personal formulas people use because it doesn't result in LeBron at #1 might want to back down as well. Good arguments can sway people but attacking someone's opinion isn't going to do anyone any favors.

[TrueLAfan]

I ask again for elaboration, because I've never heard that Kareem was close to "costing his team Magic".

Kareem aggressively protested the lakers trading for magic and was annoyed about magic getting a bigger role in the offense. Than magic went and started a **** coup in the press.

Really the OG Shaq+Kobe

I haven't heard anything about that and if you read this article, it seems that Magic was more happy with trading Kareem than the other way:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-01-08-sp-2903-story.html

It was also Magic who demanded a trade in case of not firing Paul Westhead. Young Magic was a lot harder to deal with than most realize...

This. Magic Johnson is my favorite basketball player and he was wondrous to watch in early years as grew into his game. He was also, in retrospect, full of himself and overestimated his abilities. He was a kid. Really, Kareem's demeanor worked to his advantage here. Not to be a dick or anything, but when a guy at the beginning of his third year, whose lousy play (and a way errant shot) kept the team from advancing in an elimination game the year before says that the guy who was 3rd in MVP voting the year before--and won the damn thing the year before that on a championship team--is holding a team back ... well, most players would have been a lot more angry, publicly and privately, than Kareem. Kareem dealt with it the right way. I'd actually say that by letting Riley handle it (correctly) and recognizing Magic's immaturity and not letting that impede their relationships on and off court, Kareem did a lot more to keep Magic than the other way around.

[Joao Saraiva]

For all you people who are absolutely bewildered by me not licking Bron's balls:

He had a great game 1 against Orlando. Shooting 30 times from the field and making a very impressive 20 of those shots. This game greatly boosts his average for the finals because it was all downhill from there. Scoring 41 points on 39% from the field, while having a +- of -12 is an AI type of shooting performance. At some point taking all these shots isn't helping your team win.

Now I'm gonna step away for a bit because I can't say I'm all that fond of people making things personal and I might say some things I'll regret.

G1: 49 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals, 3 blocks, 2 TOs, 71.2 ts%
It's not a great performance. It's an all time performance.

G2: 35 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal, 6 TOs, 61.9 ts%
Including game winner. Very good game despite de 5 AST/6TO ratio being bad. His efficiency and volume however speak for themselves.

G3: 41 points, 7 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 2 TO on 53.2ts%
It's still a very good game. Despite not being as efficient, his AST/TO ratio is much actually great.

G4: 44 points, 12 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 8 TOs on 51.7 ts%
Yeah this is a performance that speaks volume with no efficiency. Still since you brough +/- to the table, LeBron was +6 here.
Not his greatest game, but still not a negative one for sure.

G5: 37 points, 14 rebounds, 12 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 4 TOs on 57.2ts%
Needless to say it was another legendary performance. Also 17 points, 4 rebounds and 4 assists in the 4th with no TOs. What else is needed?

G6: 25 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block, 3 TOs on 50.3ts%
I'd say this is the only subpar game of the series for him.

So we got 2 legandary performances, 3 games with a positive +/- in a series that ended in 6, 4 games with low TOs, ton of assists and points and 3 games of very efficient scoring.

Subpar... Go look at all the Jordan series and compare it to this one. We'll see how many subpar series he had according to your criteria.

Anyway it's getting out of topic, and if you wish to think this is a subpar series.... well, that's on you. It's getting out of topic so I won't reply to this anymore.

[Joao Saraiva]

Scroll back a bit, I already explained my point of view. Funny how I literally only als you keep it civil and you can't even manage to do that. GOAT debates really bring out the worst in some people.

Nothing I said suggests anything that wasn't civil. However, some of what you said suggests that. So you might think about what you said and see if it doesn't fit you better. All I said was basketball related.

You dismissed my opinion, saying I must have not watched the series. If you don't value my opinion because I think LeBron is #2 All-Time instead of #1 there isn't a lot to gain from having a conversation with you either.

On a side note, people bashing personal formulas people use because it doesn't result in LeBron at #1 might want to back down as well. Good arguments can sway people but attacking someone's opinion isn't going to do anyone any favors.

I dismissed your opnion and told you to watch the series. It's diferent from what you said. I value your opinion, if you make claims supported by evidence. Calling the 09 ECF subpar is definitely something not supported by evidence. I couldn't care less if you have LeBron at #5, as long as the claims for that are not that the ECF of 09 was subpar. That is simply not true.

I didn't bash the formula again. I told the formula is very good. But I followed it since the begining. And formulas don't choose peak years based on personal opinion, they choose what they tell is the peak, otherwise it's not formulas, it's biased content. If you have a formula and you take 1 year of a player out because it doesn't fit the agenda, I'm gonna bash it. If you use a formula and you are consistent with it and it brings MJ, Kareem, Russell or whatever player on top... I'm definitely OK with that.

[Dutchball97]

For all you people who are absolutely bewildered by me not licking Bron's balls:

He had a great game 1 against Orlando. Shooting 30 times from the field and making a very impressive 20 of those shots. This game greatly boosts his average for the finals because it was all downhill from there. Scoring 41 points on 39% from the field, while having a +- of -12 is an AI type of shooting performance. At some point taking all these shots isn't helping your team win.

Now I'm gonna step away for a bit because I can't say I'm all that fond of people making things personal and I might say some things I'll regret.

G1: 49 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals, 3 blocks, 2 TOs, 71.2 ts%
It's not a great performance. It's an all time performance.

G2: 35 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal, 6 TOs, 61.9 ts%
Including game winner. Very good game despite de 5 AST/6TO ratio being bad. His efficiency and volume however speak for themselves.

G3: 41 points, 7 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 2 TO on 53.2ts%
It's still a very good game. Despite not being as efficient, his AST/TO ratio is much actually great.

G4: 44 points, 12 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 8 TOs on 51.7 ts%
Yeah this is a performance that speaks volume with no efficiency. Still since you brough +/- to the table, LeBron was +6 here.
Not his greatest game, but still not a negative one for sure.

G5: 37 points, 14 rebounds, 12 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 4 TOs on 57.2ts%
Needless to say it was another legendary performance. Also 17 points, 4 rebounds and 4 assists in the 4th with no TOs. What else is needed?

G6: 25 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block, 3 TOs on 50.3ts%
I'd say this is the only subpar game of the series for him.

So we got 2 legandary performances, 3 games with a positive +/- in a series that ended in 6, 4 games with low TOs, ton of assists and points and 3 games of very efficient scoring.

Subpar... Go look at all the Jordan series and compare it to this one. We'll see how many subpar series he had according to your criteria.

Anyway it's getting out of topic, and if you wish to think this is a subpar series.... well, that's on you. It's getting out of topic so I won't reply to this anymore.

And it's about LeBron vs Jordan for you after all. I might just not engage much with people in general on the early parts of the top 100 as very little of what I've seen so far I'd count as constructive and helpful discussion.

Also he had a ridiculous amount of free throws that helped his TS%. In terms of FG%, which I was talking about, it's a different story. Game 1 was great or legendary as you'd put it, game 2 was good, 4 and 5 were average and 3 and 6 were bad. The only point I was making is that this version of LeBron is not peak LeBron in my eyes.

[70sFan]

In terms of Michael Jordan I see him as one of the most reliable offensive anchors of all time combined with above average defense for most of his entire career. During his prime he could basically do everything on offense, penetrate, go to the post, cut, facilitate, offensive rebound and score in transition. The main thing that made him so deadly was not just his huge skillset but also the fact that he was ruthless and efficient in how he used said skillset. I think his portability is great and he has the tools to play in most any era. In terms of total value accumulated, I might have LeBron slightly ahead but with his tools and mind I still have more trust in Jordan. Not a perfect player but he was as close as anyone imo.

How is Jordan a more reliable offensive anchor than LeBron? I went over their Playoff numbers and their scoring is actually quite comparable. Jordan would score at a bit higher volume but the efficiency edge goes to LeBron. Unless you wanna isolate specific periods or extreme examples in their careers...

Like for instance, comparing MJ's 87-91 seasons with LeBron's 07-11 seasons... in which case, it is true that at that point of both players respective careers, Jordan was a more reliable offensive anchor mostly because his scoring ability was better at that point in time to LeBron's.

If we compare 1992 & 1993 to 2012 & 2013, i would still go with Jordan for offense, but the gap has definitely visibly closed, and when you account for LeBron's versatility and defensive edge in those seasons.

2014,2016,2017,2018 and 2020 is actually LeBron's peak offensive resilience years, imo, and they stack up well against the Top 5 Jordan seasons in that sense, imo.

So really, if we're talking about offensive anchor resiliency, MJ's 87-91 should be stacking up to LeBron's 14-20 (minus '15 and '19) while 1992 and 1993 against 2012 and 2013 are kind of a wash. And Jordan's 96-98 run is compared to LeBron's 09-11 run if we're ranking it in terms of offensive reliability/resilience.

The problem after that is that Jordan doesn't have anything left worthwhile to stack, while LeBron has 2006,2007,2008 and 2015.

Personally, I would put 1992 and 1993 over 1987 quite comfortably. It doesn't change your overall point of course, just a small point to consider.

[DQuinn1575]

Is that why he played **** in the last three games of the finals? Was pretty fortunate not to choke a 3 game lead

Game 4 he played poorly, as did the team, and they lost
Game 5 he shot 50%, the rest of his team shot 32% so they lost
So for Game 6 they were 9 point favorites, versus 9.5 for Game 1, and considering no team had come back from 3-1 in a finals,
no one seriously thought Seattle had a chance.