Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[sansterre]

Pippen and Grant weren't developed yet. Plus Pippen went down with a migraine.

I agree that, at least by the regular season, they probably weren't a championship-level team.

But the fact that they were one game away from the Finals (which they could hypothetically have won) makes clear that, regardless of their true quality, they certainly had a real chance of winning a championship.

You're coming really close to the position of "Jordan won all of the championships in the years where it was possible. And if he didn't win a championship that year, it wasn't possible".

[Stalwart]

Pippen and Grant weren't developed yet. Plus Pippen went down with a migraine.

I agree that, at least by the regular season, they probably weren't a championship-level team.

But the fact that they were one game away from the Finals (which they could hypothetically have won) makes clear that, regardless of their true quality, they certainly had a real chance of winning a championship.

You're coming really close to the position of "Jordan won all of the championships in the years where it was possible. And if he didn't win a championship that year, it wasn't possible".

So then Lebron had a championship level roster in 2007, 2015, and 2018?

[Stalwart]

If we're going to simplify things:

Lebron has won 4 championships on 7 championship level rosters.
Jordan has won 6 championships on 8 championship level rosters.

Jordan has the better win percentage but also played in a weaker era on teams that had more of a talent advantage relative to their competition.

Lebron only has 3 legitimate championships, not 4.

Jordan only played 6 full seasons on a championship roster. 95 wasn't a full season.

1990 Bulls doesn't qualify as a championship roster imo. But even if it does Pippen had a migraine in game 7 against the Pistons. So Jordan didnt have his full roster that year.

Jordan played in a much stronger conference than Lebron's conference. Lebron spent 15 yrs in the "Leastern" conference, remember? The 2010s was the most watered down Eastern Conference in league history, remember??

Jordan is 6 for 6 with championship level rosters. He's 6/11 in full healthy seasons overall.

If you're here "legitimizing" championships with your own arbitrary criteria then what's even the point of discussing anything. 4 championships is 4, not 3.

You can count that Bubble title if you want to. I don't.

[Stalwart]

do you think they have any shot at beating dallas?

being good enough to make the finals is not automatically good enough to compete for a ring

2001 sixers were not a real contender, neither was 2018 cavs, the 2011 heat minus lebron wouldnt be either

The series would have looked pretty much the same actually.

And I think they would have had as much chance of beating Dallas as the 94 Bulls beating the Rockets.

[sansterre]

Pippen and Grant weren't developed yet. Plus Pippen went down with a migraine.

I agree that, at least by the regular season, they probably weren't a championship-level team.

But the fact that they were one game away from the Finals (which they could hypothetically have won) makes clear that, regardless of their true quality, they certainly had a real chance of winning a championship.

You're coming really close to the position of "Jordan won all of the championships in the years where it was possible. And if he didn't win a championship that year, it wasn't possible".

So then Lebron had a championship level roster in 2007, 2015, and 2018?

I reject the entire premise of turning supporting-cast quality into a binary "championship quality" or "not championship quality". Simplistic nonsense like that suggests that Steph Curry in 2017 and Moses Malone in 1981 had comparable levels of support.

I'm just saying, based on what you've said in the past, 1990 (given the context, even if it didn't look like they ought to be in the regular season) should qualify.

[falcolombardi]

Pippen and Grant weren't developed yet. Plus Pippen went down with a migraine.

I agree that, at least by the regular season, they probably weren't a championship-level team.

But the fact that they were one game away from the Finals (which they could hypothetically have won) makes clear that, regardless of their true quality, they certainly had a real chance of winning a championship.

You're coming really close to the position of "Jordan won all of the championships in the years where it was possible. And if he didn't win a championship that year, it wasn't possible".

So then Lebron had a championship level roster in 2007, 2015, and 2018?

2015 did until it didnt, their injuries made them a weaker cast in the finals, how do you think jordan would have done in 93 with grant and pippen missing the whole finals (and warriors were a stronger team thsn those suns)

2007 and 2018 were good enough to beat the east but not the warriors, the difference with 1990 is that pistons were the steomgest team in the league and clearly beat portland in the finals a lot mpre easily than they beat the bulls

if bulls get past the pistons in game they would be a clear favorite over portland in the finals

if bulls took the best team in the league that dominated the finals to a close game 7 what more is needed to call them a championship level supporting cast?

[Stalwart]

I agree that, at least by the regular season, they probably weren't a championship-level team.

But the fact that they were one game away from the Finals (which they could hypothetically have won) makes clear that, regardless of their true quality, they certainly had a real chance of winning a championship.

You're coming really close to the position of "Jordan won all of the championships in the years where it was possible. And if he didn't win a championship that year, it wasn't possible".

So then Lebron had a championship level roster in 2007, 2015, and 2018?

2015 did until it didnt, their injuries made them a weaker cast in the finals, how do you think jordan would have done in 93 with grant and pippen missing the whole finals (and warriors were a stronger team thsn those suns)

2007 and 2018 were good enough to beat the east but not the warriors, the difference with 1990 is that pistons were the steomgest team in the league and clearly beat portland in the finals a lot mpre easily than they beat the bulls

if bulls get past the pistons in game they would be a clear favorite over portland in the finals

if bulls took the best team in the league that dominated the finals to a close game 7 what more is needed to call them a championship level supporting cast?

Well that was largely because of Jordan's heroics and not the strength of the team. Similar to Lebron and the Cavs in 2007 and 2018.

Theres nobody you could replace Jordan with that year and done that well expect maybe Magic or Hakeem. And theres nobody you replace Lebron with other than maybe Kobe or Wade in 07.

[DQuinn1575]

And I'll stipulate to the fact that they *could* have won a championship, the same way the Suns made the Finals in 76, the Heat made the Finals in 20, the Heat won the Finals in 06, the Rockets made the Finals in 81 . . . the entry requirement to teams that *could* have won the Finals is pretty low. It may not be the most reasonable standard.

The Suns supporting Westphal in 76 had an all-star player in Adams and 5 other guys who had played regularly in the league.
The Bulls in 91 had 1 all-star player and 3 other guys who had played regularly in the league. I'm not sure the Suns' roster was worse than the Bulls.

And the Heat did win the 06 Finals, and the Warriors did win the 75 FInals - so it's real hard to look at a team with an all-star player and 3+ guys who played regularly in the league and say this team stunk and you can't win with them.

[sansterre]

And I'll stipulate to the fact that they *could* have won a championship, the same way the Suns made the Finals in 76, the Heat made the Finals in 20, the Heat won the Finals in 06, the Rockets made the Finals in 81 . . . the entry requirement to teams that *could* have won the Finals is pretty low. It may not be the most reasonable standard.

The Suns supporting Westphal in 76 had an all-star player in Adams and 5 other guys who had played regularly in the league.
The Bulls in 91 had 1 all-star player and 3 other guys who had played regularly in the league. I'm not sure the Suns' roster was worse than the Bulls.

And the Heat did win the 06 Finals, and the Warriors did win the 75 FInals - so it's real hard to look at a team with an all-star player and 3+ guys who played regularly in the league and say this team stunk and you can't win with them.

No disrespect intended to Adams but the '76 Suns were a 42-40, +0.59 RSRS team. All I was trying to say is that "could have won the championship" is a classification that seems to potentially include almost every team that can make the playoffs.

[falcolombardi]

And I'll stipulate to the fact that they *could* have won a championship, the same way the Suns made the Finals in 76, the Heat made the Finals in 20, the Heat won the Finals in 06, the Rockets made the Finals in 81 . . . the entry requirement to teams that *could* have won the Finals is pretty low. It may not be the most reasonable standard.

The Suns supporting Westphal in 76 had an all-star player in Adams and 5 other guys who had played regularly in the league.
The Bulls in 91 had 1 all-star player and 3 other guys who had played regularly in the league. I'm not sure the Suns' roster was worse than the Bulls.

And the Heat did win the 06 Finals, and the Warriors did win the 75 FInals - so it's real hard to look at a team with an all-star player and 3+ guys who played regularly in the league and say this team stunk and you can't win with them.

basically you are saying is that if you have a star, then
3 solid role players should be enough to compete?

cause under that low bar one could argue that almost all of lebron and jordan careers (80's included) were good enough

[sansterre]

basically you are saying is that if you have a star, then
3 solid role players should be enough to compete?

cause under that low bar one could argue that almost all of lebron and jordan careers (80's included) were good enough

Let's not overplay it. Jordan's supporting casts in the 80s were pretty weak sauce. I say with the utmost respect.

1985: +2.6 supporting VORP
1987: +1.3 supporting VORP
1988: +2.2 supporting VORP
1989: +1.2 supporting VORP

Wise man say, if you have peak Jordan in full-on fireball mode and you can't get past 50 wins, you probably have a weak supporting cast.

[DQuinn1575]

And I'll stipulate to the fact that they *could* have won a championship, the same way the Suns made the Finals in 76, the Heat made the Finals in 20, the Heat won the Finals in 06, the Rockets made the Finals in 81 . . . the entry requirement to teams that *could* have won the Finals is pretty low. It may not be the most reasonable standard.

The Suns supporting Westphal in 76 had an all-star player in Adams and 5 other guys who had played regularly in the league.
The Bulls in 91 had 1 all-star player and 3 other guys who had played regularly in the league. I'm not sure the Suns' roster was worse than the Bulls.

And the Heat did win the 06 Finals, and the Warriors did win the 75 FInals - so it's real hard to look at a team with an all-star player and 3+ guys who played regularly in the league and say this team stunk and you can't win with them.

basically you are saying is that if you have a star, then
3 solid role players should be enough to compete?

cause under that low bar one could argue that almost all of lebron and jordan careers (80's included) were good enough

No, I said a star (Westphal), an all-star player (Adams) and 3 solid starters. that is not 3 solid role players. That is probably the minimum to win.

[falcolombardi]

basically you are saying is that if you have a star, then
3 solid role players should be enough to compete?

cause under that low bar one could argue that almost all of lebron and jordan careers (80's included) were good enough

Let's not overplay it. Jordan's supporting casts in the 80s were pretty weak sauce. I say with the utmost respect.

1985: +2.6 supporting VORP
1987: +1.3 supporting VORP
1988: +2.2 supporting VORP
1989: +1.2 supporting VORP

Wise man say, if you have peak Jordan in full-on fireball mode and you can't get past 50 wins, you probably have a weak supporting cast.

i misread his comment so it was my mistake

i thought he said any team with experienced players and a star is the mínimum to compete

[The4thHorseman]

Im just referring to championship level rosters. Jordan had 6 of them. He won everytime.

He played 11 full prime seasons total and won over 50% of the time.

Lebron lost in 2011, 2014, & 2017 with championship level rosters.

Lebron has played something like 17 full healthy seasons and only won 3 legitimate titles so far for a 17% winning pct.

I think its better to have a higher win pct and a higher win total. In fact its really tough to beat that no matter how you slice it.

Bill Walton has a 100% win rate for all the seasons he was healthy in the playoffs (2/2).

And I think it's easy to argue that '95 was a championship level roster for Jordan.

Jordan only played 17 games that season tho. Pretty hard to count that one. You'd almost have to be desperate to do something like that.

If the Bulls had won the title in 95', I'd bet that fans would still count it.

He put up 55pts his 5th game back against the number 1 defense in the league NYK. The talk after that was how he didn't miss a beat after being off for 22mos.

He put up great numbers against Orlando in the ECSF but still lost. Shorty after, all the talk was MJ was rusty and didn't have his legs back yet. Didn't take long for those opinions to change after the loss.

[The4thHorseman]

Anyone think that MJ didn't benefit mentally and physically from his time away from the NBA, in his prime?

[Stalwart]

Bill Walton has a 100% win rate for all the seasons he was healthy in the playoffs (2/2).

And I think it's easy to argue that '95 was a championship level roster for Jordan.

Jordan only played 17 games that season tho. Pretty hard to count that one. You'd almost have to be desperate to do something like that.

If the Bulls had won the title in 95', I'd bet that fans would still count it.

He put up 55pts his 5th game back against the number 1 defense in the league NYK. The talk after that was how he didn't miss a beat after being off for 22mos.

He put up great numbers against Orlando in the ECSF but still lost. Shorty after, all the talk was MJ was rusty and didn't have his legs back yet. Didn't take long for those opinions to change after the loss.

Of course you would count it as it would be a major feat to only play 17 games, be out of basketball shape and just waltz into another title.

[The4thHorseman]

Jordan only played 17 games that season tho. Pretty hard to count that one. You'd almost have to be desperate to do something like that.

If the Bulls had won the title in 95', I'd bet that fans would still count it.

He put up 55pts his 5th game back against the number 1 defense in the league NYK. The talk after that was how he didn't miss a beat after being off for 22mos.

He put up great numbers against Orlando in the ECSF but still lost. Shorty after, all the talk was MJ was rusty and didn't have his legs back yet. Didn't take long for those opinions to change after the loss.

Of course you would count it as it would be a major feat to only play 17 games, be out of basketball shape and just waltz into another title.

It would be equivalent to a runner coming out of the bushes at the 23mile mark of a 26mile marathon FTW.

You can't say a win would have counted then say the 2nd round loss isnt held against him.

[Stalwart]

If the Bulls had won the title in 95', I'd bet that fans would still count it.

He put up 55pts his 5th game back against the number 1 defense in the league NYK. The talk after that was how he didn't miss a beat after being off for 22mos.

He put up great numbers against Orlando in the ECSF but still lost. Shorty after, all the talk was MJ was rusty and didn't have his legs back yet. Didn't take long for those opinions to change after the loss.

Of course you would count it as it would be a major feat to only play 17 games, be out of basketball shape and just waltz into another title.

It would be equivalent to a runner coming out of the bushes at the 23mile mark of a 26mile marathon FTW.

You can't say a win would have counted then say the 2nd round loss isnt held against him.

Sure I can. If Lebron cameback after a year and half off, play only 17 games, and win the title that would be incredible. But if he lost in the second I wouldn't use that to try and chip away at his legacy.

[jalengreen]

Jordan only played 17 games that season tho. Pretty hard to count that one. You'd almost have to be desperate to do something like that.

If the Bulls had won the title in 95', I'd bet that fans would still count it.

He put up 55pts his 5th game back against the number 1 defense in the league NYK. The talk after that was how he didn't miss a beat after being off for 22mos.

He put up great numbers against Orlando in the ECSF but still lost. Shorty after, all the talk was MJ was rusty and didn't have his legs back yet. Didn't take long for those opinions to change after the loss.

Of course you would count it as it would be a major feat to only play 17 games, be out of basketball shape and just waltz into another title.

jordan in the 95 playoffs avg'd 31.5 ppg on 55.7% TS%

jordan in the 96-98 playoffs avg'd 31.4 PPG on 54.3% TS%

adjusting for lower league avg TS% in 97 and 98, his scoring production was almost identical in 95 as the 2nd 3peat.

[sansterre]

If the Bulls had won the title in 95', I'd bet that fans would still count it.

He put up 55pts his 5th game back against the number 1 defense in the league NYK. The talk after that was how he didn't miss a beat after being off for 22mos.

He put up great numbers against Orlando in the ECSF but still lost. Shorty after, all the talk was MJ was rusty and didn't have his legs back yet. Didn't take long for those opinions to change after the loss.

Of course you would count it as it would be a major feat to only play 17 games, be out of basketball shape and just waltz into another title.

jordan in the 95 playoffs avg'd 31.5 ppg on 55.7% TS%

jordan in the 96-98 playoffs avg'd 31.4 PPG on 54.3% TS%

adjusting for lower league avg TS% in 97 and 98, his scoring production was almost identical in 95 as the 2nd 3peat.

His scoring in '95 was an incredible achievement. It was his turnovers almost doubling that made his effectiveness notably lower than it would be in the subsequent three years.