Chris Paul 21-22 Thread

[sp6r=underrated]

Terrific closeout game by Cp3 against the 9 seed 36 win Pelicans

onto an actual defense against Dallas....

Can you point out another game by any superstar when they closed out an 8th seed as the 1st seed with a perfect game? Or any playoff game for that matter?

Not a good look on you, bud.

At some point, we have to just stop feeding the trolls, you know? Too many look to poison a little celebration of achievement, it's quite frustrating. Particularly when the goalposts keep shifting. "Legacy game, legacy game!" *first perfect shooting performance on 10+ FGA in league playoff history* "Onto a real defense!" You're never going to win with that sort of individual.

The Suns closed it out, Paul crushed souls in the final game, onto the next round and hopefully Booker rounds into form for that series. Then we can see what damage Phoenix can do in this postseason, for sure.

It is also sad. It reflects the sad view that ring counters have that the only thing that matters is a ring. Kobe Bryant getting 81 may not have resulted in a title but it did matter. Paul's performance in G4 doesn't guarantee a title or anything but it is significant and impressive.

[tsherkin]

It is also sad. It reflects the sad view that ring counters have that the only thing that matters is a ring. Kobe Bryant getting 81 may not have resulted in a title but it did matter. Paul's performance in G4 doesn't guarantee a title or anything but it is significant and impressive.

Indeed. They are fantastic performances, just like Kobe's final game. I tuned into that just after the half and just sat there the rest of the game with my jaw gaped open while I watched him bust heads one last time. That was the best final game of a career I've ever seen after MJ decided to come back with the Wizards and ruin his cinematic Finals moment, hehe.

[Owly]

I'm really pulling for the old man. I firmly believe that if he had durability he'd have had a career similar to Garnett, Duncan, Magic, Bird, guys like that.

Devil's advocate ... how sure are we that he doesn't?
He doesn't have the award type accolades most have ....
when Bird does the little things and shoots ... very poorly ... his team can win a title because he's mostly playing on talented teams.
Magic can be unable to guard his man and just be less than an immortal deity because he's in the weaker conference so he'll tend to advance deep.

Thats not to say these guys weren't great, and this is all very unsystematic. But if his teams didn't tend to go to hell without him would the injuries cast such a ... pall. He's got some good longevity now (though I don't think he's that close to what he once was).

I'm not all in on this, just thinking aloud.

[The High Cyde]

It was a masterclass.

Watch on YouTube

[tsherkin]

I'm really pulling for the old man. I firmly believe that if he had durability he'd have had a career similar to Garnett, Duncan, Magic, Bird, guys like that.

Devil's advocate ... how sure are we that he doesn't?
He doesn't have the award type accolades most have ....
when Bird does the little things and shoots ... very poorly ... his team can win a title because he's mostly playing on talented teams.
Magic can be unable to guard his man and just be less than an immortal deity because he's in the weaker conference so he'll tend to advance deep.

Thats not to say these guys weren't great, and this is all very unsystematic. But if his teams didn't tend to go to hell without him would the injuries cast such a ... pall. He's got some good longevity now (though I don't think he's that close to what he once was).

I'm not all in on this, just thinking aloud.

certainly a worthwhile thought. time does funny things to reputation, but then again, in-era popularity did much for those two as well (and others) to mask flaws only really discussed when they lost.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Chris Paul vs Pelicans
6 Games Played

Lead team to a raw relative team offensive rating of 9.3!

Shot 66% from the midrange area

23.6 pts per 75 (rTS% of 10.3% compared to league average, +8.2 opponent-adjusted rTS%)

Created about 17.5 shots per 100 possessions (#1)

Estimated Playmaking Value of 3.0 (#1 by a landslide)

#1 in assists per game (11.3) and assists per possession

Backpicks BPM-8.6 (2nd after Jimmy Butler who played 4 out of his teams 5 games)

AuPM/G-5.2 (2nd)

RAPTOR-13 (#1 in RAPTOR WAR)

BPM-10 (#3, but #1 in overall VORP)

WS/48-.296 (#2, but #1 in overall winshares)

Not bad for a guy who was the clear #1 offensive option on his team at 36 years old (turning 37 in a few days).

[LukaTheGOAT]

I'm really pulling for the old man. I firmly believe that if he had durability he'd have had a career similar to Garnett, Duncan, Magic, Bird, guys like that.

Devil's advocate ... how sure are we that he doesn't?
He doesn't have the award type accolades most have ....
when Bird does the little things and shoots ... very poorly ... his team can win a title because he's mostly playing on talented teams.
Magic can be unable to guard his man and just be less than an immortal deity because he's in the weaker conference so he'll tend to advance deep.

Thats not to say these guys weren't great, and this is all very unsystematic. But if his teams didn't tend to go to hell without him would the injuries cast such a ... pall. He's got some good longevity now (though I don't think he's that close to what he once was).

I'm not all in on this, just thinking aloud.

certainly a worthwhile thought. time does funny things to reputation, but then again, in-era popularity did much for those two as well (and others) to mask flaws only really discussed when they lost.

Statistically, CP3 in the PS is right there with the greats, but it really depends on how you weight his short PS play from 13-17. For instance, did CP3 look so good because we didn't have to see him go through a long PS run where he may tire and /or face certain tough PS opponents. He played a historically tough slate of PS defenses from 12-16 and was phenomenal, but are his injuries a result of durability and body shortcomings or bad luck?

https://diamondhoop5.wordpress.com/2021/07/12/playoff-defenses-faced-update/

[Stalwart]

CP3 as really moved up the ladder for me the last few years. It started with his gutsy performance against the Warriors when he pulled out that game 6(iirc) on one leg. Then to watch him turn OKC into a playoff team and now the Suns into a title contender is eye opening. Winning a Conference Championship last year was big for me.

I used to cringe when I saw people put CP3 in the top 5 PGs all time but its looking more and more reasonable. However for me personally he has to win a chip to move into my top 5. I can't put a ringless CP3 over Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, Oscar, and definitely not Steph. John Stockton doesn't have a ring but he's got the stls and asts records along with 2 conference championships plus longevity so thats a no go as well.

But man oh man do we have a potential all time great showdown between CP3 and Steph on the horizon. Legacies on the line in this one. Lets hope for no injuries and no upsets.

[Colbinii]

CP3 as really moved up the ladder for me the last few years. It started with his gutsy performance against the Warriors when he pulled out that game 6(iirc) on one leg. Then to watch him turn OKC into a playoff team and now the Suns into a title contender is eye opening. Winning a Conference Championship last year was big for me.

I used to cringe when I saw people put CP3 in the top 5 PGs all time but its looking more and more reasonable. However for me personally he has to win a chip to move into my top 5. I can't put a ringless CP3 over Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy, Oscar, and definitely not Steph. John Stockton doesn't have a ring but he's got the stls and asts records along with 2 conference championships plus longevity so thats a no go as well.

But man oh man do we have a potential all time great showdown between CP3 and Steph on the horizon. Legacies on the line in this one. Lets hope for no injuries and no upsets.

Your top 5 Point Guards are Thomas, Cousy, Oscar, Steph and Stockton?

1) It seems you are inconsistent with your analysis as you value rings for some players [Thomas] but then value longevity for Stockton. Why not be consistent considering CP3 peaked higher than Thomas/Stockton and has longevity far greater than Thomas.

2) Its laughable you don't have Magic here.

[Stalwart]

Your top 5 Point Guards are Thomas, Cousy, Oscar, Steph and Stockton?

1) It seems you are inconsistent with your analysis as you value rings for some players [Thomas] but then value longevity for Stockton. Why not be consistent considering CP3 peaked higher than Thomas/Stockton and has longevity far greater than Thomas.

I value everything for everybody. I value rings and I value longevity. I also value accolades and achievements. I also value statistics. Also the intangibles. Peak as well. I then weigh all that together.

So by that reasoning you can easily see why CP3 doesn't yet make in the top 5. I can move him above Jason Kidd and maybe Steve Nash. But with a NBA Championship I think you could make the case for him to move into the top 5.

2) Its laughable you don't have Magic here.

I have Magic #1, actually.

[Dr Positivity]

I am one of the many bandwagoning for CP3 title the rest of the playoffs

[ardee]

He's got to be either the 3rd or 4th best PG of all time in my mind.

Magic and Oscar are still better, but it's a very tough call between him and Steph. It's really down to longevity vs peak.

I see Steph has having 9 relevant seasons, and CP3 has 13, plus the '19 Houston year when he was still pretty good but hurt and kind of inconsistent. Call it 13.5.

Is Steph's average season 50% better than Paul's? Honestly, no, I don't think so. Peak probably is, yes, but idk if it outweighs the overall longevity advantage.

I really really hope they win the title this year. No player has ever been more deserving.

[LukaTheGOAT]

He's got to be either the 3rd or 4th best PG of all time in my mind.

Magic and Oscar are still better, but it's a very tough call between him and Steph. It's really down to longevity vs peak.

I see Steph has having 9 relevant seasons, and CP3 has 13, plus the '19 Houston year when he was still pretty good but hurt and kind of inconsistent. Call it 13.5.

Is Steph's average season 50% better than Paul's? Honestly, no, I don't think so. Peak probably is, yes, but idk if it outweighs the overall longevity advantage.

I really really hope they win the title this year. No player has ever been more deserving.

As someone trying to learn more about Oscar, what makes you comfortable having Oscar as clearly the #2 PG ever? Like what in his portfolio trumps the candidates behind him?

[70sFan]

He's got to be either the 3rd or 4th best PG of all time in my mind.

Magic and Oscar are still better, but it's a very tough call between him and Steph. It's really down to longevity vs peak.

I see Steph has having 9 relevant seasons, and CP3 has 13, plus the '19 Houston year when he was still pretty good but hurt and kind of inconsistent. Call it 13.5.

Is Steph's average season 50% better than Paul's? Honestly, no, I don't think so. Peak probably is, yes, but idk if it outweighs the overall longevity advantage.

I really really hope they win the title this year. No player has ever been more deserving.

Paul's overall career value is certianly impressive, I have to reevaluate my top 20 because he has to be somewhere inside it.

That said, I think West still has strong case over him. Do you already have Paul over Jerry?

[ardee]

He's got to be either the 3rd or 4th best PG of all time in my mind.

Magic and Oscar are still better, but it's a very tough call between him and Steph. It's really down to longevity vs peak.

I see Steph has having 9 relevant seasons, and CP3 has 13, plus the '19 Houston year when he was still pretty good but hurt and kind of inconsistent. Call it 13.5.

Is Steph's average season 50% better than Paul's? Honestly, no, I don't think so. Peak probably is, yes, but idk if it outweighs the overall longevity advantage.

I really really hope they win the title this year. No player has ever been more deserving.

As someone trying to learn more about Oscar, what makes you comfortable having Oscar as clearly the #2 PG ever? Like what in his portfolio trumps the candidates behind him?

He had a very high peak (in '64 he won MVP over prime Wilt and Russell. Not saying he was better than them but that is still impressive) and was close to that level for most of his prime. Consistently had the Royals as the league's top offense.

Then in 1971 when he joined the Bucks with Kareem they went from a 4 SRS to a 12 SRS team. Now I'm not saying that was all Oscar but he was the main addition so that's some huge impact. If he was having that kind of impact during the later years of his career (he was 32 in 1971), one could draw conclusions off that about how good he was in his prime.

[ardee]

He's got to be either the 3rd or 4th best PG of all time in my mind.

Magic and Oscar are still better, but it's a very tough call between him and Steph. It's really down to longevity vs peak.

I see Steph has having 9 relevant seasons, and CP3 has 13, plus the '19 Houston year when he was still pretty good but hurt and kind of inconsistent. Call it 13.5.

Is Steph's average season 50% better than Paul's? Honestly, no, I don't think so. Peak probably is, yes, but idk if it outweighs the overall longevity advantage.

I really really hope they win the title this year. No player has ever been more deserving.

Paul's overall career value is certianly impressive, I have to reevaluate my top 20 because he has to be somewhere inside it.

That said, I think West still has strong case over him. Do you already have Paul over Jerry?

West has always been considered a 2 (though I see the argument for him being a 1), so I wasn't factoring him into that discussion.

But no, I don't. West and Oscar I consider to be pretty close (Oscar the better RS player and West had the Playoff chops), can't decide between them. They're 13/14 on my ATL and it would be hard for Paul to get that high (though I never expected him to get to this point either so who the hell knows).

[Bad Gatorade]

Paul's overall career value is certianly impressive, I have to reevaluate my top 20 because he has to be somewhere inside it.

That said, I think West still has strong case over him. Do you already have Paul over Jerry?

Last time I had a think about this matter, I had West and CP3 quite close to each other, with fairly similar cases.

Both of them were MVP level players for a long time whilst missing a bunch of time due to injury - 932 games for West, and 950 games for Paul in his first 14 years (although I haven't calculated the difference in season lengths between the two, factoring in the shorter seasons in the 60s and the lockout in 2012). West was probably an MVP level guy for slightly longer (and possibly peaked higher?) but Paul's last few seasons of All NBA level play would help bridge that gap quite nicely, IMO.

In fact, I think we're reaching the point where CP3 has the greatest PG longevity ever, or at least is in the discussion for it, at numerous levels of play (top 5/MVPish level, All NBA level, starter level, being-in-the-league level).

Fun fact - if we look at BBR's 'Similarity Scores' based off Win Shares (which is probably a semi-decent analogue, given that they're both fantastic in terms of efficiency and both good defensive guards), Jerry West's closest match over the first 14 years of his career is... Chris Paul. CP3 drops to the second closest match (after Magic) once we factor in the aforementioned All NBA level seasons.

Playoff wise, I'm not as familiar with West's career, but my understanding is that statistically, he's pretty awesome, but also didn't have too much success, although a large portion of that is because the 1960s Celtics exist So I wouldn't consider that a disappointment, but rather, what was "expected." Of course, if you shed some extra light on this for me, I'd be grateful!

[eminence]

I generally think of West as a solid playoff performer, but largely in line with his RS performance (like all but a handful of guys).

By season:
'61: -0.11 SRS Lakers defeat the -2.11 Pistons 3-2 then lose the +2.99 Hawks in 7, West .113 WS/48 to .203
'62: +1.8 Lakers 4-2 the -1.72 Pistons then fall 3-4 to the +8.25 Celtics, West .201 to .209
'63: +2.67 Lakers 4-3 the +1.38 Hawks then 2-4 vs the +6.38 Celtics, West .18 to .188
'64: +0.87 Lakers fall 2-3 to the +1.39 Hawks, West .232 to .210
'65: +1.7 Lakers 4-2 the -1.97 Bullets, then 1-4 vs the +7.46 Celtics, West .261 to .189
'66: +2.76 Lakers 4-3 the -0.5 Hawks, then 3-4 the +4.34 Celtics, West .256 to .237
'67: injured for the playoffs, +0.31 Lakers get swept 0-3 vs the +2.58 Warriors
'68: +4.99 Lakers 4-1 the -3.76 Bulls, then 4-0 the -0.66 Warriors, finally 2-4 the +7.96 Celtics, West .241 to .278
'69: +3.84 Lakers 4-2 the -1.53 Warriors, then 4-1 the +2.06 Hawks, finally 3-4 the +5.35 Celtics, West .216 to .274
'70: +1.76 Lakers 4-3 the -1.66 Suns, then 4-0 the +0.31 Hawks, finally 3-4 the +8.42 Knicks, West .234 to .184
'71: injured for the playoffs, +3.27 Lakers 4-3 the +5.47 Bulls (Goodrich goes for 30/7, Wilt 16/21/6), then 1-4 the +11.92 Bucks
'72: +11.65 Lakers 4-0 the +7.91 Bulls, then 4-2 the +10.7 Bucks, finally 4-1 the +2.28 Knicks, West .216 to .078
'73: -8.16 Lakers 4-3 the +3.43 Bulls, then 4-1 the +3.12 Warriors, finally 1-4 the +6.07 Knicks, West .206 to .184
'74: injured for the playoffs, +0.85 Lakers 1-4 the +7.61 Bucks

[falcolombardi]

I am one of the many bandwagoning for CP3 title the rest of the playoffs

one of my biggest hot takes is that prime chris paul is comparable to curry as a player

he creates comparable offense results, is a bit better defender and even in impact metrics (like RAPM) that absolutely adore curry paul is up there with him

the rings will always make that argument a non starter with most people tho

[Dr Positivity]

I am one of the many bandwagoning for CP3 title the rest of the playoffs

one of my biggest hot takes is that prime chris paul is comparable to curry as a player

he creates comparable offense results, is a bit better defender and even in impact metrics (like RAPM) that absolutely adore curry paul is up there with him

the rings will always make that argument a non starter with most people tho

Absolutely when considering 2008 and 2009 Paul, bigger question is whether Clippers one is still comparable, maybe. Curry/Paul is similar to Duncan/KG and will most likely split ringz people from advanced stats ones well in the future.