A RealGM Scandal, and a Conversation about Projects

[sp6r=underrated]

ESPN just announced OhayoKD will replace Shannon Sharpe as their pro-Lebron voice.

[One_and_Done]

Something I'm going to add regarding Ohayo is that . . . it is a need to just hammer people into submission with data and a sense that much of the MJ myth is built on nostalgia.

I share that frustration. Michael Jordan is The Wire of basketball players, unquestionably great but also get his flaws forgiven in a way no other all-time great gets.

The Wire is indisputably the greatest TV show of all-time, and so has very little in common with Jordan.

[jjgp111292]

I'm a big Wire guy but indisputably is doing a lot of work especially if we're talking about something so subjective...but go on, this convo might be illuminating

[ceoofkobefans]

Am I the only one whose not feeling sock account from these socks?

The skeptics all have things in common

Many things being said here which there stuff I don't really know about cause I only been in this Website for 4 month but i think OhayoKD thoughts on Bill Russell is genuine or At least it actually put some though on it to make a reasonable Argument for Bill to be Top 1 in Peak/Prime ( Cause we been discussing About how high he thinks Bill Russell is as a player both Peak and Prime. To be totally honest I don't real agree with most stuff for Bill even tho I'm high on him myself in term of Career Value ). this is from 3 years ago that he made argument for bill russell to be the highest Peak ever in term of relative to era.

viewtopic.php?p=107550888#p107550888

( That mean he thinks it Gap all player including Bron MJ Kareem and more ) Even tho that not a PoV I'm agreeing with. I do think it important to say that he didn't Fake his thoughts about having bill as Goat peak.

that was something i forgot to mention. Webby defintely thinks bill is better than mj, he thinks bill is arguably the goat peak

Nobody cares. We’re not here to hear statements fron”webby” or his internet defense force.

yea im definitely not defending webby lol

[sp6r=underrated]

Something I'm going to add regarding Ohayo is that . . . it is a need to just hammer people into submission with data and a sense that much of the MJ myth is built on nostalgia.

I share that frustration. Michael Jordan is The Wire of basketball players, unquestionably great but also get his flaws forgiven in a way no other all-time great gets.

The Wire is indisputably the greatest TV show of all-time, and so has very little in common with Jordan.

I'd dispute it.

[jalengreen]

Something I'm going to add regarding Ohayo is that . . . it is a need to just hammer people into submission with data and a sense that much of the MJ myth is built on nostalgia.

I share that frustration. Michael Jordan is The Wire of basketball players, unquestionably great but also get his flaws forgiven in a way no other all-time great gets.

The Wire is indisputably the greatest TV show of all-time, and so has very little in common with Jordan.

The Wire could never hang in today’s era of television

[eminence]

Sesame Street and it's not even close.

[SHAQ32]

Do the forum a favor and ban homecourtloss; he's another one of the trolls.

[tsherkin]

So in as much as the conversation about the Wire and stuff is amusing, this is a pretty serious subject, so we should probably try to stay on point for a LITTLE longer. There are some heavy emotions about everything which has happened, and while a little levity isn't unwelcome, we probably shouldn't tail off about it for half a page or more at the moment.

[jalengreen]

Do the forum a favor and ban homecourtloss; he's another one of the trolls.

??

[tsherkin]

Do the forum a favor and ban homecourtloss; he's another one of the trolls.

Let's try to keep personal vendettas out of things, and to stay on topic. homecourt has been around for almost a decade and a half, has over 11,000 posts... he's not the subject of this conversation at all.

[TheGOATRises007]

Do the forum a favor and ban homecourtloss; he's another one of the trolls.

He's not usually a troll, but his posts in this thread were pretty poor.

He kept posting over and over again how this was only a problem because of the fact Jordan didn't win. There's literally proof of prior projects where that happened and everything was fine.

Didn't seem to mind at all what ohyo and enigma were doing.

[TheGOATRises007]

Do the forum a favor and ban homecourtloss; he's another one of the trolls.

Let's try to keep personal vendettas out of things, and to stay on topic. homecourt has been around for almost a decade and a half, has over 11,000 posts... he's not the subject of this conversation at all.

He's not the subject, but when he comes in and keeps mocking the OP in disrespectful fashion, he should be called out for it.

He was corrected with his posts 2-3 times and kept posting inflammatory remarks.

[tsherkin]

He's not the subject, but when he comes in and keeps mocking the OP in disrespectful fashion, he should be called out for it.

He was corrected with his posts 2-3 times and kept posting inflammatory remarks.

That is more a strong example of when and how to use the report function so that the moderators can make a decision. Derailing this thread isn't going to help. The conversation needs to stay focused on some key elements here, not devolve into picking fights over individual users not involved in the active subject.

[EmpireFalls]

WTF. Saddening news, more than I can really digest on the train ride home today. I feel like I’ve stepped into someone’s house and found out they’re a hoarder or something. This is ludicrous behavior for an Internet forum.

[lessthanjake]

My two cents on this:

1. Needless to say, this is unfortunate. OhayoKD and AEnigma’s behavior is bizarre and pathetic. I think Doc is right that this stems in large part from people caring way too much about whether the voting results of projects aligns with their personal views and letting that become the goal. To some degree, I think Doc’s right that wanting that is surely not uncommon. But these individuals obviously took that to a psycho level. Based on the post history of these two individuals, it seems to me that this is because these two—and OhayoKD in particular—are really emotionally invested in feeling like they’re “winning” arguments and moving public opinion on what they’re talking about. And the two concepts of needing to feel like they’re “winning” arguments and moving public opinion dovetail together, because these posters’ aims were pretty clearly in significant part to use corrupted voting results to make claims that project results shifting over time show that they’ve “won” arguments with other posters. There’s some real delusions-of-grandeur issues there. And it’s just a really unhealthy and anti-social way to approach discussion. Not to mention how much bizarre cognitive dissonance and dishonesty is required to do that when you know full well the vote corruption you engaged in.

2. These two will surely just think they are victims. They will reason to themselves that actually they are being persecuted for their views about basketball. That sentiment is echoed in some of the objections by some of their Discord buddies. I would be a bit surprised if some of those responses weren’t scripted by OhayoKD (or at least written with broad direction from OhayoKD), given that some of the posts come from the very accounts that were clearly OhayoKD alt/sock accounts. It’s really just nonsense though. Anyone who reads Doc’s OP can easily discern what they were banned for and that it was not in any way the content of their posts. This was clearly a content-neutral decision made because these two amply deserved to be banned regardless of what their views on basketball are.

3. To the people trying to suggest that these two do not deserve to be banned, I just want to remind people that it is indisputably true that both OhayoKD and AEnigma were previously banned posters. That by itself easily justifies banning them again. Being banned means you’re gone from the website, not that you can just create an alt account (likely using a VPN) and keep posting without any consequence. There’s other ban-worthy activity described here, relating to alt accounts and the peaks projects, but these two straightforwardly deserve to be banned without any of that even needing to come into play.

4. I see some indication that some of these new accounts are real people, rather than just being OhayoKD alt accounts. I don’t really know what accounts are real people being scripted by OhayoKD and which ones are simply an OhayoKD alt account. There’s people pointing out that tsherkin has said he’s sure that many of these new accounts are actually separate people. I just want to note that I doubt tsherkin has any indication of that except that those individuals are separate posters on the Discord (of course, tsherkin can feel free to correct me if, for instance, he’s actually spoken to these people or met them in real life). But if OhayoKD makes alt accounts on RealGM (and that is clearly the case—even the OhayoKD account itself is an alt account), then I don’t really see why we should assume that OhayoKD doesn’t make alt accounts on Discord. In fact, I’m virtually certain that that is the case, since the Thinking Basketball Discord has people talking about different Discord accounts that OhayoKD has used there (and been banned using). So yeah, I just want to note that “this poster has their own account on Discord” really doesn’t mean it isn’t an OhayoKD alt account. This distinction may not matter that much, since “scripting” other people’s posts is not particularly different from having your own alt account, but just thought I’d make this fairly obvious point. EDIT: To be clear, I’m not at all impugning tsherkin’s integrity here. It is reasonable to conclude that posters who have their own Discord account are separate people. My point is just that, without more, that isn’t an airtight conclusion, because OhayoKD can (and does) have alt accounts on Discord too.

5. I wonder what happens in the future with these posters that are either OhayoKD alt accounts or have been scripted by OhayoKD. Doc’s OP indicates that OhayoKD has referenced there being at least 10 such accounts. It seems highly likely to me that OhayoKD will keep operating/scripting those accounts (especially since some of them are apparently children). Which seems like a problem. But if those accounts are actually separate people, then in theory they could actually post of their own accord and contribute without being an OhayoKD sock. So I understand not banning them too. It’ll be hard to tell whether they’re posting for themselves or not, though. Given this, I suspect OhayoKD will just be back (or really never actually leave), replicating themselves like a deranged computer virus. I would say that moderation should take a zero-tolerance policy to these accounts, but I don’t really know what that would look like. How could one really tell whether a poster was being scripted by OhayoKD or simply was independently saying similar things? Would it be fair to ban those accounts merely for making OhayoKD-like arguments? Probably not. So I think what will probably happen in reality is that those accounts will have a very short leash if they engage in the kind of rude, anti-social behavior that OhayoKD regularly did. That’s perhaps the best that can be done here. But I do think it’s a real problem.

6. In part because of the above, I think I’m inclined to say the peaks project should just be started anew next year. I think there’s just a lot of fog of war now regarding what is a legit account and what isn’t. There may not be full clarity next year, but there’d be more of it. Alternatively, it could be started anew this year with some sort of minimum-post threshold (which it should probably have next year anyhow). But it just feels to me like having some time between this one and a legitimate version of the project would be healthier. And, if the project were started anew right now, it’s not like the actual legit posters would have much more to say on the first several threads than they just said earlier this month (though I guess new long-time posters could join, after seeing that the project no longer is corrupt to its core). I don’t feel super strongly about that topic though.

7. As I’ve written before, I really think that the purpose of these projects is to focus community discussion on particular topics, which gets people really delving into the same topic at once and engaging on it. I think it’s a good way to do that, and I think the actual results of the projects are ancillary to that. (In fact, in the RealGM Top 100, I actually kind of liked when players I was pulling for didn’t get picked, because that gave me more opportunity to keep discussing them in the next thread, which I found fun). So, for me, I don’t think this sort of thing is reason to not have these sorts of projects anymore. However, it might make sense for people to try to think of project subjects that might be new and different, so that the community discussion is focused on new things rather than rehashes of old arguments (which tend to be discussions people have shorter fuses on). I don’t have any particularly great ideas, but thought I’d mention it. One idea off the top of my head would be to do a Top 20 Greatest Role Players project, with some sort of concrete guideline for what qualifies as a role player (not sure how that line would be drawn, but it could be something like if a player hasn’t made an all star game and has averaged less than 30 MPG in their career). I’m sure there’s plenty of other, better ideas people could come up with, but that’s the type of thing I’m talking about—where discussion could be focused on particular topics that aren’t actually rehashes.

[EmpireFalls]

I'm now wondering if Ohayo is the "mind" behind that MythNix account on Twitter that's psychotically anti-Jordan and pro-LeBron. My one interaction with that account was posting the WWII Japanese soldier meme and their response was very...Ohayo-ish

That account is absolutely hilarious. They’ll cite news clippings proving Jordan had a bad game or something and then go “his 54 points in the next game aside” lol. I think they’re capable of genuine humor which it seems OhayoKD is not… but they do share in common the trait of actually making Jordan look better, paradoxically, due to the way they argue against him

[jalengreen]

I'm now wondering if Ohayo is the "mind" behind that MythNix account on Twitter that's psychotically anti-Jordan and pro-LeBron. My one interaction with that account was posting the WWII Japanese soldier meme and their response was very...Ohayo-ish

I doubt it. Their pinned tweet is titled "KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR: CHOKE ARTIST" and is a Kareem vs LeBron comparison. I don't think LeBron > Kareem has ever been an opinion Ohayo has been particularly invested in but I could be mistaken. Said it earlier but I really don't think Ohayo was all that pro-LeBron. They were just *so* anti-Jordan that in LeBron vs Jordan debates, they were very deeply anchored on the LeBron side ... but not because their opinion of LeBron actually far exceeded the board's.

Will say, that account's had some interesting stuff tbh. Like I saw a thread from it with newspaper evidence of Jordan being referred to as the GOAT repeatedly before he ever won a championship, which sort of supported my belief that ring bias has worsened in sports discourse since then. Cool to get primary sources. But yeah certainly a bias there lol

[Bank Shot]

I'm now wondering if Ohayo is the "mind" behind that MythNix account on Twitter that's psychotically anti-Jordan and pro-LeBron. My one interaction with that account was posting the WWII Japanese soldier meme and their response was very...Ohayo-ish

I thought it was him at first too, but then I searched "realgm discord" to see if anyone was talking about this on Twitter and the first result is someone telling Myth that Ohayo wants them to join his discord

[jjgp111292]

I'm now wondering if Ohayo is the "mind" behind that MythNix account on Twitter that's psychotically anti-Jordan and pro-LeBron. My one interaction with that account was posting the WWII Japanese soldier meme and their response was very...Ohayo-ish

I thought it was him at first too, but then I searched "realgm discord" to see if anyone was talking about this on Twitter and the first result is someone telling Myth that Ohayo wants them to join his discord

CO. ME. DY.

Ohayo is truly Everything Everywhere All At Once