Retro Player of the Year Project

SideshowBob · Post #1401 » by **SideshowBob** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:32 am

therealbig3 wrote:My list:

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. CP3
4. Wade
5. Harden

Seems like the top 3 are pretty unanimous for most people. Kobe is just outside the top 5 for me right now, and depending on the playoffs, he can crack the top 5.

With the season just about over, that's mine as well.

Post #1402 » by **mopper8** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:41 am

His athleticism has eroded to the point that he now has to rely on a shaky post up game

I don't know where he finished, but just a few weeks ago Wade was #8 in the league in post-up efficiency. He shot 42% on 16-24 feet, which is actually pretty damn good on his # of attempts. But please, keep enlightening us with your wonderful analysis.

Narigo · Post #1403 » by **Narigo** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:47 am

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Dwyane Wade
5. James Harden/Russell Westbrook

oolalaa · Post #1404 » by **oolalaa** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:30 am

mopper8 wrote:
His athleticism has eroded to the point that he now has to rely on a shaky post up game

I don't know where he finished, but just a few weeks ago Wade was #8 in the league in post-up efficiency. He shot 42% on 16-24 feet, which is actually pretty damn good on his # of attempts. But please, keep enlightening us with your wonderful analysis.

You. Are. A. Clown.

How's that for an analysis?

FYI. personal abuse of other posters earns the mods' "special" attention. - rrravenred

Tim_Hardawayy · Post #1405 » by **Tim_Hardawayy** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:16 pm

Kobe fans just can't seem to learn how to play nice.

Anyways, with him missing the playoffs, I don't see how he can conceivably make anybody's top 5 now.

James
Durant
Paul
Anthony
Harden

Is what I'm looking at right now, with the playoffs helping to decide where exactly they rank in relation to each other.

Post #1406 » by **mopper8** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:33 pm

oolalaa wrote:
mopper8 wrote:
His athleticism has eroded to the point that he now has to rely on a shaky post up game

I don't know where he finished, but just a few weeks ago Wade was #8 in the league in post-up efficiency. He shot 42% on 16-24 feet, which is actually pretty damn good on his # of attempts. But please, keep enlightening us with your wonderful analysis.

You. Are. A. Clown.

How's that for an analysis?

Pretty bad to be honest.

TheChosen618 · Post #1407 » by **TheChosen618** » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:45 am

If the top 5 is just based on the 2012-2013 season and nothing more.

My top 5 would be...

1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. Carmelo Anthony
5. James Harden

HM: Russell Westbrook

The first three should be fairly obvious

Melo and Harden is a tough choice for me honestly but I went with Melo primarily because he led his Knicks to a better record and because he won the scoring title. Harden is great and I certainly would rather have Harden on my team opposed to Melo, but I'm not sure if I could say he had a better season than Melo did this season.

I think the playoffs will end up defining it all. I don't think Harden will have a very good post-season. He looks unbelievable tired right now from carrying this Rockets team all season long and this is mainly Mchale's fault for overutilizing him to death and failing to utilize his other pieces like Jeremy Lin. Of course, Carmelo Anthony could easily choke in the post-season as well since he is not a very good post-season performer himself.

It is very possible that if Westbrook has a dominating post-season performance that he leapfrogs over both of them in the rankings. Westbrook is the popular pick for the All-NBA First team guard and I know most RealGMers will be ticked off when they see that. :lol:

I think Dwyane Wade is a better overall player than both Melo and Harden currently are, but he has been inconsistent this season due to coasting, injuries, and so fourth, so I can't put him above either or even Westbrook for that matter.

I'm guessing the point of this thread and project is to talk about the best players of the season, not the best players overall, otherwise I feel like some of these lists would be very different.

Mean_Streets · Post #1408 » by **Mean_Streets** » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:39 am

James Harden being a top 5 player is a joke. Do people know how bad this guy is defensively? The guy is a turnover machine and inefficient. Kobe had a better season than Harden, but because Kobe got injured in the last games of the season you are gonna but Harden ahead of him? Kobe still played 78 games this season, the Rockets made the playoffs as an 8 seed and will probably get swept.

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. CP3
4. Carmelo
5. Westbrook/Kobe

I will probably put Westbrook at the 5 spot if he performs well this postseason.

acrossthecourt · Post #1409 » by **acrossthecourt** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:25 am

Mean_Streets wrote:James Harden being a top 5 player is a joke. Do people know how bad this guy is defensively? The guy is a turnover machine and inefficient. Kobe had a better season than Harden, but because Kobe got injured in the last games of the season you are gonna but Harden ahead of him? Kobe still played 78 games this season, the Rockets made the playoffs as an 8 seed and will probably get swept.

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. CP3
4. Carmelo
5. Westbrook/Kobe

I will probably put Westbrook at the 5 spot if he performs well this postseason.

Really strange to see that argument about Harden's defense when you list Kobe 5th.

I hate it break it to you, but he sucks this season defensively.

Mean_Streets · Post #1410 » by **Mean_Streets** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:22 pm

acrossthecourt wrote:
Mean_Streets wrote:James Harden being a top 5 player is a joke. Do people know how bad this guy is defensively? The guy is a turnover machine and inefficient. Kobe had a better season than Harden, but because Kobe got injured in the last games of the season you are gonna but Harden ahead of him? Kobe still played 78 games this season, the Rockets made the playoffs as an 8 seed and will probably get swept.

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. CP3
4. Carmelo
5. Westbrook/Kobe

I will probably put Westbrook at the 5 spot if he performs well this postseason.

Really strange to see that argument about Harden's defense when you list Kobe 5th.

I hate it break it to you, but he sucks this season defensively.

Both Kobe & Harden suck defensively, but you can't deny Kobe had a better season offensively, he was just more efficient & I would still take Kobe over Harden defensively if I needed a stop.

I would take Kobe, Westbrook, & Wade over Harden. Harden is getting overrated here.

therealbig3 · Post #1411 » by **therealbig3** » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:11 pm

How in the world was Kobe more efficient?

Harden's efficiency is the main reason why so many people are so high on him.

Mean_Streets · Post #1412 » by **Mean_Streets** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:05 am

therealbig3 wrote:Harden's efficiency is the main reason why so many people are so high on him.

Have you been watching Harden this year? The guy has been shooting under 40% for the past 2 months. :lol:

therealbig3 · Post #1413 » by **therealbig3** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:17 am

Mean_Streets wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Harden's efficiency is the main reason why so many people are so high on him.

Have you been watching Harden this year? The guy has been shooting under 40% for the past 2 months.

Oh my bad, forgot that it's only the last 2 months that count. :roll:

60% TS and a 116 ORating is extremely efficient...more efficient than Kobe for sure.

Mean_Streets · Post #1414 » by **Mean_Streets** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:41 am

therealbig3 wrote:
Mean_Streets wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Harden's efficiency is the main reason why so many people are so high on him.

Have you been watching Harden this year? The guy has been shooting under 40% for the past 2 months.

Oh my bad, forgot that it's only the last 2 months that count.

60% TS and a 116 ORating is extremely efficient...more efficient than Kobe for sure.

Please don't ever use ORating when evaluating a player. That is more of a team stat. Harden had a higher ORating than Durant last season does that make him a better offensive player?

Harden is a decent 3 point shooter who gets much of his points at the rim, but he is a horrible mid range shooter, he can't make anything from 15-22 feet & he has no post game. Kobe can score from ANYWHERE on the court, Harden can't, which is why I think Kobe is a better scorer than Harden, both aren't defenders, but we all know when things get serious Kobe is the guy you would prefer defensively. And I've never seen a player constantly get bailed out by the refs than Harden, if you put a finger on him he is sent to the FT line.

Ignore the 2 months all you want, that is still a good chunk of the season, he has been very inefficient as the season has wore on.

Kobe, Wade, & Westbrook are all competing for the #5 spot right now, Harden is nowhere near it.

therealbig3 · Post #1415 » by **therealbig3** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:28 am

Individual ORating is pretty useful if you want to see how TOs affect overall efficiency, imo.

And nothing you said supported "Kobe is more efficient". Just a bunch of excuses as to why Harden is more efficient.

Nobody's ignoring the last 2 months of the season...I'm just not ONLY looking at the last 2 months as if that's all that matters. I'm looking at the whole season.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #1416 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:09 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Individual ORating is pretty useful if you want to see how TOs affect overall efficiency, imo.

And nothing you said supported "Kobe is more efficient". Just a bunch of excuses as to why Harden is more efficient.

Nobody's ignoring the last 2 months of the season...I'm just not ONLY looking at the last 2 months as if that's all that matters. I'm looking at the whole season.

How so?

Kobe - 13.3 TO%
Harden - 14.9% TO%

Kobe - 29.7% AST%
Harden - 25.7%
^
Kobe's been more efficienct with turnovers, and assited at a higher rate. It's widely known around the PC board that Indiivdual ORtg/DRtg is rather useless.

Case in point....Tyson Chandler's 10.4 ppg, 0.9 apg, 1.3 tpg has a whopping 133 ORtg(league best). :lol:

therealbig3 · Post #1417 » by **therealbig3** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:30 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Individual ORating is pretty useful if you want to see how TOs affect overall efficiency, imo.

And nothing you said supported "Kobe is more efficient". Just a bunch of excuses as to why Harden is more efficient.

Nobody's ignoring the last 2 months of the season...I'm just not ONLY looking at the last 2 months as if that's all that matters. I'm looking at the whole season.

How so?

Kobe - 13.3 TO%
Harden - 14.9% TO%

Kobe - 29.7% AST%
Harden - 25.7%
^
Kobe's been more efficienct with turnovers, and assited at a higher rate. It's widely known around the PC board that Indiivdual ORtg/DRtg is rather useless.

Case in point....Tyson Chandler's 10.4 ppg, 0.9 apg, 1.3 tpg has a whopping 133 ORtg(league best).

I could point out that Tyson Chandler has the best TS% in the league, which proves that TS% is useless in terms of determining who the best scorers are.

I'm using ORating to compare two players that play similar minutes and score at a similar volume. The fact that Kobe gets more assists and less TOs helps show that Harden is scoring more efficiently, which compensates for that. Or put another way, the only reason why Harden's ORating isn't much larger is because Kobe makes up for it somewhat with better ball security and more assists.

Vinsanity420 · Post #1418 » by **Vinsanity420** » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:18 pm

Efficiency differences have to take volume into account - Kobe consumes slightly more possessions/scores/assists more than Harden, which causes about a 2-3 TS%/O-Rating difference. They're both crappy defenders. Harden and Kobe have been pretty much the same player in terms of impact this year. The only reason Harden gets a Top 5 vote over Kobe this year is because Kobe couldn't play in the playoffs, which is unfortunate for him.

I am probably rolling -

1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Paul
4 -5 - Carmelo, Duncan or Harden.

therealbig3 · Post #1419 » by **therealbig3** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:38 am

Curry is making serious noise.

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. CP3

These are the only ones set in stone as of right now for me. For 4 and 5, you have Wade, Melo, Harden, and Curry imo. Westbrook and Kobe are unfortunately eliminated imo because of their injuries. I'd probably go with Wade and Melo, personally. I would have had Harden over Melo strictly based on regular season, but he's really struggled badly so far, while Melo has led his team to a dominating advantage while going up against a comparable defense.

Curry falls just short, it seems.

CBA · Post #1420 » by **CBA** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:12 pm

Mean_Streets wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Harden's efficiency is the main reason why so many people are so high on him.

Have you been watching Harden this year? The guy has been shooting under 40% for the past 2 months.

I don't understand why people continue to use FG% as a measure of efficiency. Well, I do in this case (to pump up their player of choice) but it's still dumb.

Over March and April, Harden has a 58TS%. So over his worst stretch, he has still been more efficient than Kobe over his entire season. And over that same stretch, Harden has passed the ball better (a 5% increase in AST% while his TO% has remained stable). Is this where I add the lol smiley?