The Lebron Thread

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal

mysticbb
Banned User
Posts: 8,205
And1: 713
Joined: May 28, 2007
Contact:
   

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1401 » by mysticbb » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:04 am

GSP wrote:How come 2010 before 2009?


Very good question. In terms of production and efficiency, James was better in 2009. I might very well switch the years here, but I don't think that a big difference was there anyway.

ardee, I didn't make a complete list, but during the discussion I had several times pointed out which players I thought deserved to be higher or lower. Overall I don't feel that I have enough information about all players to put a completely objective list out there. The majority of the picks within the Top15 would also be in my Top15, with only a few changes in terms of the ranking. I think I was very vocal about Wade having a higher peak than Bryant for example and I would definitely put Wade into the Top15 over Bryant.
But in the end the list would also depend on the perspective. Is per possession impact more important than playing a lot of minutes? I would probably pick Ginobili's peak over some of the peaks which were selected for those top 33, but well ...
User avatar
SideshowBob
General Manager
Posts: 9,064
And1: 6,272
Joined: Jul 16, 2010
Location: Washington DC
 

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1402 » by SideshowBob » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:01 am

mystic, you mentioned some APM figures about a week ago in another thread. Are those part of your own APM study for the year, your SPM for the year or the new metric you mentioned? Are you going to make those figures available on your site?
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
User avatar
rrravenred
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 6,117
And1: 589
Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Location: Pulling at the loose threads of arguments since 2006

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1403 » by rrravenred » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:23 am

Keep it pleasant, folks.
ElGee wrote:You, my friend, have shoved those words into my mouth, which is OK because I'm hungry.


Got fallacy?
IG2
Head Coach
Posts: 6,024
And1: 4,499
Joined: Jul 12, 2011

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1404 » by IG2 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:46 am

MisterWestside wrote:
I'd ask how you arrived to this conclusion in earnest, but since you feel that you're the world's sole authority on the game of basketball, I'll be satisfied with the fact that you're simply incorrect with your assessment on James.

As you were.


As a Mavs fan, it's very hard for mystic to live with the fact that the ONLY reason his team won the championship was because of a bizarre mental breakdown by the opposition's top player, to the point where he basically stopped trying on offense for much of the series. How does mystic deal with this? By crediting Dallas' genius defense, of course, which put Wade in favorable "positions" to score while completely neutralizing LeBron's pet spots. He also, for some reason, has this belief that Wade and LeBron cannot be successful at the same time (never mind the fact that they WERE all damn season prior to the finals), that it has to be one or the other. According to him, part of the reason LeBron had an invisible Finals was because Wade was the MAN(his Finals volume is no different than season averages, but screw logic) and this, naturally, cut into LeBron's touches and thus, a major downgrade in production. Never mind the fact that everybody and their mother saw LeBron playing hot potato with the ball all series and look content in standing behind the 3pt line with little intent to make a play - no, this was a doing of Dallas' genius D and Wade being the MAN. Makes you wonder why they stopped playing this D after the 2011 Finals, with LeBron/Wade absolutely murdering 'em since.

The 2011 Finals is the biggest case of giving away a series in NBA history. With LeBron's head on straight, Miami wins that series 10 times out of 10. Heck, they almost won it despite LeBron giving them 3rd banana production. This doesn't sit well with mystic and thus, this fiction he has created.
starvinmarvin17
Banned User
Posts: 1,688
And1: 23
Joined: Jul 10, 2008

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1405 » by starvinmarvin17 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:54 am

IG2 wrote:
MisterWestside wrote:
I'd ask how you arrived to this conclusion in earnest, but since you feel that you're the world's sole authority on the game of basketball, I'll be satisfied with the fact that you're simply incorrect with your assessment on James.

As you were.


As a Mavs fan, it's very hard for mystic to live with the fact that the ONLY reason his team won the championship was because of a bizarre mental breakdown by the opposition's top player, to the point where he basically stopped trying on offense for much of the series. How does mystic deal with this? By crediting Dallas' genius defense, of course, which put Wade in favorable "positions" to score while completely neutralizing LeBron's pet spots. He also, for some reason, has this belief that Wade and LeBron cannot be successful at the same time (never mind the fact that they WERE all damn season prior to the finals), that it has to be one or the other. According to him, part of the reason LeBron had an invisible Finals was because Wade was the MAN(his Finals volume is no different than season averages, but screw logic) and this, naturally, cut into LeBron's touches and thus, a major downgrade in production. Never mind the fact that everybody and their mother saw LeBron playing hot potato with the ball all series and look content in standing behind the 3pt line with little intent to make a play - no, this was a doing of Dallas' genius D and Wade being the MAN. Makes you wonder why they stopped playing this D after the 2011 Finals, with LeBron/Wade absolutely murdering 'em since.

The 2011 Finals is the biggest case of giving away a series in NBA history. With LeBron's head on straight, Miami wins that series 10 times out of 10. Heck, they almost won it despite LeBron giving them 3rd banana production. This doesn't sit well with mystic and thus, this fiction he has created.


Man I will never figure that series out honestly only Lebron knows
mysticbb
Banned User
Posts: 8,205
And1: 713
Joined: May 28, 2007
Contact:
   

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1406 » by mysticbb » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:03 am

SideshowBob wrote:mystic, you mentioned some APM figures about a week ago in another thread. Are those part of your own APM study for the year, your SPM for the year or the new metric you mentioned?


Indeed, there are.

SideshowBob wrote:Are you going to make those figures available on your site?


I have trouble getting a clean matchupfile, so, I should say that those numbers are taken with a grain of salt anyway. They are in agreement with results from other people (somewhat), but I know that my matchupfile is far from perfect (multiple missing game snippets, some double counted possessions, etc. pp.), I haven't figured out a way to get rid of that (to be honest, I haven't tried much, because I was occupied with other stuff and not that motivated). Once I get that done, I plan to make a real site with a better presentation of the results. I don't like the current format at all. So, that might take some time and I will not make promises, but I guess I will find time in the offseason somewhere between July and September (well, if miss mystic is allowing it :D).
mysticbb
Banned User
Posts: 8,205
And1: 713
Joined: May 28, 2007
Contact:
   

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1407 » by mysticbb » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:38 am

IG2 wrote:As a Mavs fan, it's very hard for mystic to live with the fact that the ONLY reason his team won the championship was because of a bizarre mental breakdown by the opposition's top player, to the point where he basically stopped trying on offense for much of the series.


First of all, I'm not a Mavericks fan. Second, the difference in terms of scoring efficiency between 2011 finals and 2012 finals leads to 0.5 ppg difference for James; that is hardly the explanation for the loss at all.

And I encourage everyone to watch the finals of 2011 again and take a close look at two things. 1st, look how the Mavericks player's went after everyone receiving the inbound pass except James. Look how Barea/Terry/Stevenson/etc. chasing either Chalmers, Bibby, Wade, etc. pp. in the Heat half after they have received the inbound pass when James is on the court as well. They are doing that basically in all possessions. In game 6 JVG even specifally asked what Terry is doing when he was harrassing Wade only to go back on defense quickly when James received the ball to carry that over to the Mavericks half. Whenever James had the ball, the Mavericks went back into their own half and positioned themselves in a specific fashion, so that James had to face a defender with multiple help defenders backing him up. In that way, the Mavericks encouraged James to pass the ball to another perimeter player to iniate the play. That forced James to work off the ball, one of his weaknesses.
At that point, the 2nd important part of the defense was iniated, which was there to make sure that the passing angle to James was always defended well in order to ensure that James doesn't get the ball back. That was especially effective when the Mavs switched to their matchup zone defense. That either forced James to stand right next to the ball handler to receive the ball, with the distinct danger of getting double teamed right away, or go away and stand around on the perimeter. That left two main options for the Heat, either get the ball to Bosh in the midpost or lowpost area, while Bosh didn't have much space then, or let Wade try to get a position to attack the basket. One possibility the Mavericks constantly tried to deny was letting James have the ball in either spot. Watch them fight for such position in many possessions and basically defending the ball handler rather loosely.

Those were the two major aspects which forced James into the positions he was on the court and without the ball in his hand. That was much more important to his overall performance than any kind of mental breakdown the media and some people wanted to create. It is one of the most absurd things people are believing that a player of that caliber can't perform anymore, because he has a mental breakdown of some sort, while it has nothing to do with the defense of the opponents.

IG2 wrote:By crediting Dallas' genius defense, of course, which put Wade in favorable "positions" to score while completely neutralizing LeBron's pet spots.


Well, watch the game, because that's what happened.

IG2 wrote:He also, for some reason, has this belief that Wade and LeBron cannot be successful at the same time (never mind the fact that they WERE all damn season prior to the finals), that it has to be one or the other.


Well, there is just one ball and usually just one guy can shoot the ball. Wade and James also had to share with the ball with Bosh, a pretty decent player as well. Usually the amount of shots taken between those 3 players is constant (which should be easy to understand). That was also the case in the Mavericks series, in which Wade got more shots than James. Now, you may believe a two time MVP and multiple 1st team player just mentally broke down, or there were other forces at work. Given the fact that the Mavericks defense was also able to limit other star players (like Durant and Westbrook, or Bryant and Gasol), it makes very little sense to think it had no influence, especially when you watched the games and kept an eye on what they actually did.

But yeah, keep believing you are a good psychologist who can judge the state of mind of people by watching them playing basketball. Sounds very logical to me, instead of actually looking at the way the defensive team is approaching he game, we should rather make weird assumption about the mental state of the player, because we all can really judge that by sitting on a sofa at home. Incredible that some people are really that much overconfident that they actually really believe they have such an ability. Where a real psychologist would say that he would need to make a private interview with a person to actually evaluate possible mental issues, some fans without any kind of background knowledge think they are able to do that by watching a game of basketball.
lorak
Head Coach
Posts: 6,317
And1: 2,237
Joined: Nov 23, 2009

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1408 » by lorak » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:55 pm

mysticbb wrote:
And I encourage everyone to watch the finals of 2011 again and take a close look at two things. 1st, look how the Mavericks player's went after everyone receiving the inbound pass except James. Look how Barea/Terry/Stevenson/etc. chasing either Chalmers, Bibby, Wade, etc. pp. in the Heat half after they have received the inbound pass when James is on the court as well. They are doing that basically in all possessions. In game 6 JVG even specifally asked what Terry is doing when he was harrassing Wade only to go back on defense quickly when James received the ball to carry that over to the Mavericks half. Whenever James had the ball, the Mavericks went back into their own half and positioned themselves in a specific fashion, so that James had to face a defender with multiple help defenders backing him up. In that way, the Mavericks encouraged James to pass the ball to another perimeter player to iniate the play. That forced James to work off the ball, one of his weaknesses.
At that point, the 2nd important part of the defense was iniated, which was there to make sure that the passing angle to James was always defended well in order to ensure that James doesn't get the ball back. That was especially effective when the Mavs switched to their matchup zone defense. That either forced James to stand right next to the ball handler to receive the ball, with the distinct danger of getting double teamed right away, or go away and stand around on the perimeter. That left two main options for the Heat, either get the ball to Bosh in the midpost or lowpost area, while Bosh didn't have much space then, or let Wade try to get a position to attack the basket. One possibility the Mavericks constantly tried to deny was letting James have the ball in either spot. Watch them fight for such position in many possessions and basically defending the ball handler rather loosely.

Those were the two major aspects which forced James into the positions he was on the court and without the ball in his hand. That was much more important to his overall performance than any kind of mental breakdown the media and some people wanted to create. It is one of the most absurd things people are believing that a player of that caliber can't perform anymore, because he has a mental breakdown of some sort, while it has nothing to do with the defense of the opponents.


Exactly.
Unfortunately not many people watch games as closely as you, so it's not surprise that "mental reason" is the only explanation most people see.
bastillon
Head Coach
Posts: 6,927
And1: 666
Joined: Feb 13, 2009
Location: Poland
   

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1409 » by bastillon » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:20 pm

this is just a try of ex-post justification, not really listing the reasons for his collapses in the 4th quarters. keep in mind LeBron was playing well through the 1st 3 quarters and then went for like 2 ppg at 40% in the 4ths. that's why people keep saying he disappeared. gameplanning for a star is one thing, making him look like Derek Fisher is something completely different. in order to justify your thesis not only do you have to list the reasons (which were a factor no doubt) for his worse than usual performance, but you also have to explain why the collapse happened to take place in the 4th quarters.

if Mavs had a gameplan that could make LeBron look like that on a consistent basis, they'd use it all game. but everyone knows LeBron is unstoppable. you can contain him to some extent but even then he's gonna get his 25/6/6 at worst. that's why people keep sayin it was his fault. no matter the defensive attention and gameplan, there is nothing that can explain why LeBron became a 2 pp quarter 40% FG player when it mattered the most. you listed things that were major factors in slowing him down but mentally stable LeBron would still play a lot better. I'm not even saying what you said wasn't true about their gameplan, I'm sayin it's mad to think you can make LeBron disappear with gameplan alone. it has a lot more to do with Lebron's reluctance to be aggressive than with anything else. of course if you're gonna guard him like OKC did (play no defense and send SG Harden man to man at this beast) LeBron's gonna explode. but gameplan and good defense ain't enough either. and clearly more than most of this had to do with LeBron and not Mavs gameplan. teams used all kinds of stuff to slow down LeBron and they almost never did. the only thing that really worked were all-time great defenses that kept forcing him into making mistakes (low efficiency, lots of tov) but Mavs didn't really do that. LeBron just stopped shooting, stopped penetrating, didn't really get in the paint at all.
Quotatious wrote: Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.
MisterWestside
Starter
Posts: 2,449
And1: 596
Joined: May 25, 2012

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1410 » by MisterWestside » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:51 pm

IG2 wrote:As a Mavs fan, it's very hard for mystic to live with the fact that the ONLY reason his team won the championship was because of a bizarre mental breakdown by the opposition's top player, to the point where he basically stopped trying on offense for much of the series.


Don't agree with "mental" issues here, but mysticbb swings too far in the other direction by implying that there was no improvement in James when you compare his '11 Finals '12 Finals.

It's not that LeBron didn't want to win, or didn't want to score when needed (he did, after all, lead his team in shots attempted down the stretch in close Mavs games in the 4th). But there's a connection between LeBron's work to become less of a perimeter shooter and more of a post/paint player, and his move to PF. He was also much less careless with the ball against the Thunder while maintaining his playmaking production. The difference cannot simply be explained away by getting less opportunities against the Mavs. LeBron also did better with those opportunities, instead of playing right into the defense's strategy of baiting him into becoming more into an outside jumpshooter.
mysticbb
Banned User
Posts: 8,205
And1: 713
Joined: May 28, 2007
Contact:
   

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1411 » by mysticbb » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:04 pm

bastillon wrote:if Mavs had a gameplan that could make LeBron look like that on a consistent basis, they'd use it all game. but everyone knows LeBron is unstoppable.


I love that kind of reasoning. Because you assume that James is "unstoppable", thus we have to conclude that he was just mentally weak. Seriously, the Mavericks couldn't keep a high defensive pressure for the whole game, they just weren't capable of doing it all season long. But they were able to do that in the closing minutes of the game, when they switched to their matchup zone constantly. And that is something they've done all season long to any team.

The Mavericks game plan was to make James play like a point guard, not a scorer. When it worked, James looked like that mentally weak player everyone wanted to see, when it didn't (and it didn't work on multiple occasions), the Heat had a lot of opportunities to score.

bastillon wrote:LeBron just stopped shooting, stopped penetrating, didn't really get in the paint at all.


Well, when I look at the end of game 2 for example, I see James penetrating with the ball 3 times (one miss, one FT, one pass), I see James taking 3 shots he has to take, making two passes he has to make, I see him making the inbound pass to Chalmers. Then I see Wade taking two shots. There wasn't a single possession in which James refused to play. And that is just one example. I seriously think that some are not really paying attention and are satisified with their ability as psychologists. Really, watch the game and then notice when James was not well defended and refused to make a play, I honestly would really like to see that.
ardee
RealGM
Posts: 15,320
And1: 5,397
Joined: Nov 16, 2011

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1412 » by ardee » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:14 pm

You know what the absurd thing is.... Before the season, all the threads about LeBron's GOAT ceiling were doing the rounds, and everyone agrees unless he wins like 5 straight titles he's not surpassing Jordan.

But right now, if he continues this level of play for another few years, it's going to be very hard for him not to make it into the discussion on sheer number of truly GOAT level seasons. He has '09, '10, '12 and '13 already. Unless he has an injury, count on '14, '15 and '16 as well. So that'll be six seasons in the ballpark of peak Jordan, with one not too far behind ('10).

Assuming he has another few seasons where he's still a top 2-3 player (assuming Durant is going to surpass him at some point), the GOAT case starts building it self just on purely level of play, leaving accolades and what not out of it (5 MVPs seems to have a legit shot).
User avatar
toodles23
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,115
And1: 3,538
Joined: Jun 09, 2010

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1413 » by toodles23 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:16 pm

Lebron's having a crappy game. Just really sloppy with his passing and handling today. I've only counted 3 TOs though, don't know where the 4th is from.

Might have to change my mind on that. 26 points on 15 true attempts right now.
User avatar
SideshowBob
General Manager
Posts: 9,064
And1: 6,272
Joined: Jul 16, 2010
Location: Washington DC
 

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1414 » by SideshowBob » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:13 pm

Since recovering from Ankle injury (14 G)

Code: Select all

MP    PTS    TRB    AST    STL    BLK    TOV   TS%    eFG%   GmSc   ORTG
38.1  29.4   7.5    6.8    1.9    0.8    3.1  .692   .659    26.5   134


Needs to control his turnovers.

Last 5

Code: Select all

MP    PTS    TRB    AST    STL    BLK    TOV   TS%    eFG%   GmSc   ORTG
36.3  31.0   6.8    6.0    1.4    0.8    4.2  .793   .773    27.1   136


Getting close to 64% TS on the season now. He may very well end up topping or matching Durant by season's end. If Durant's volume slips up just a bit, they'll both be around 28 PPG (Durant high, James low), so the scoring race still has potential to heat up as well.
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
User avatar
jjgp111292
Pro Prospect
Posts: 769
And1: 595
Joined: Jun 29, 2012

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1415 » by jjgp111292 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:14 pm

Is LeBron human?
And see basically them trick bitches get no dap
And see basically Redman album is no joke
And see basically I don't get caught up at my label
Cause I kill when they **** with food on my dinner table
Twitter
MisterWestside
Starter
Posts: 2,449
And1: 596
Joined: May 25, 2012

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1416 » by MisterWestside » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:26 pm

jjgp111292 wrote:Is LeBron human?


Yes. His team isn't +15 ortg over the league average.

:wink:
therealbig3
RealGM
Posts: 29,595
And1: 16,132
Joined: Jul 31, 2010

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1417 » by therealbig3 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:29 pm

This LeBron guy isn't half bad.
rza
Sophomore
Posts: 170
And1: 3
Joined: Dec 27, 2012

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1418 » by rza » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:36 pm

GOAT in the making. Just unreal how this guy keeps gettin better and better.
User avatar
SideshowBob
General Manager
Posts: 9,064
And1: 6,272
Joined: Jul 16, 2010
Location: Washington DC
 

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1419 » by SideshowBob » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:42 pm

mysticbb wrote:
SideshowBob wrote:mystic, you mentioned some APM figures about a week ago in another thread. Are those part of your own APM study for the year, your SPM for the year or the new metric you mentioned?


Indeed, there are.


Cool. Which one of the three were you referring to though? :)

SideshowBob wrote:Are you going to make those figures available on your site?


I have trouble getting a clean matchupfile, so, I should say that those numbers are taken with a grain of salt anyway. They are in agreement with results from other people (somewhat), but I know that my matchupfile is far from perfect (multiple missing game snippets, some double counted possessions, etc. pp.), I haven't figured out a way to get rid of that (to be honest, I haven't tried much, because I was occupied with other stuff and not that motivated). Once I get that done, I plan to make a real site with a better presentation of the results. I don't like the current format at all. So, that might take some time and I will not make promises, but I guess I will find time in the offseason somewhere between July and September (well, if miss mystic is allowing it :D).


Awesome. I look forward to that, whenever that may be :D
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
MisterWestside
Starter
Posts: 2,449
And1: 596
Joined: May 25, 2012

Re: The Lebron Thread 

Post#1420 » by MisterWestside » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:45 pm

therealbig3 wrote:This LeBron guy isn't half bad.


So therealbig3, is Wade's superb play since he's worked his way into shape what happens when he stops allowing others (the RealGM board) to blame LeBron for not "meshing" teammates and, you know, Wade actually works on his own game?

Return to Player Comparisons