The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3)

[CKRT]

I feel like game 5 is going to be a blowout win for GS. Cavs blew their load in the first half tonight and didn't have much left in the tank in the 2nd, and it's going to be hard to regenerate their enthusiasm on the road while down 3-1.

That's my thought as well. I think we'll get 1 quarter of max effort Lebron defense and maybe O if he can hit a jumpshot or two but he'll wear out and GS gets the title at home.

Honestly, I think what LeBron needs to be doing for this Cavs team to win is simply too much to ask of a player with as little rest as he's been getting. They're asking him to anchor their defense by playing the 4 AND asking him to post up or barrel to the basket every single possession as well as bring the ball up the court. That's too much when Lue can't even find smart minutes for him to rest in. Cavs are running into the same issue OKC did by running a short rotation, but unlike OKC the Cavs have some useful bench players that they should be able to get usable minutes out of (Delly, Shump, Frye) if you play them at the right time. Lue is not managing minutes here well at all.

[DreDay]

Curry situation doesn't have to be either/or. It's possible he's less than 100% AND that even if 100% he wouldn't be the exact same Curry as the season.

The history of the NBA is, barring a few rare exceptions, a history of players seeing their play level reduced in the playoffs, due to opponent talent, preparation, and everyone's effort level at max, which usually manifests more on defense.

We need only look at 2015 Finals Curry for an example.

I agree with this completely, but I hate the binary strawman argument that people create - when he plays well, he's healthy, when he doesn't, he's injured. Who is actually saying this apart from the people portraying it onto others? Completely ridiculous.

For me, Curry's performance is affected by the way he's being played as he's being held a lot more, but that he's clearly not 100% as his first step is noticeably slower and his cuts are not as sharp as they were in the regular season. These factors are pretty much independent of how teams play him.

[bondom34]

So they just won the title with their best player "disinterested". He's just not that into basketball I guess. That's probably why he missed those 2 weeks too, not because he was injured. He just wasn't interested in playing

I'm not saying he wasn't hurt then. But he came back, was great. A bad game? He's hurt! Then he drops 30, he's back! Then a bad game? He's hurt! Then he plays well, he's back! Everyone's a little banged up, he's not hurt. He played poorly in game 3 this series b/c he was disinterested. He was off vs OKC because he was well defended.

Yeah, not sure where you're getting this on and off hurt thing. Would say 99% of Warriors fans thinks he's hurt no matter what his point totals are, because we've watched him for his whole career and know this isn't how he normally moves.

Because whenever I'm watching TV, there is this constant back and forth, and I know some don't see him as hurt. Personally I don't, never did. He was playing well since his second game back, then whenever he plays poorly I see the "hurt" thing come up. I don't believe it until there's actual proof.

Edit: And I just saw the above about not being 100 percent, which is fine and I totally buy that. But nobody is at 100 percent right now, absolutely nobody. So its just not a valid excuse there either to me. He's just not played well.

[PaulieWal]

Honestly, I think what LeBron needs to be doing for this Cavs team to win is simply too much to ask of a player with as little rest as he's been getting. They're asking him to anchor their defense by playing the 4 AND asking him to post up or barrel to the basket every single possession as well as bring the ball up the court. That's too much when Lue can't even find smart minutes for him to rest in.

I feel the same way pretty much. And Nate Duncan pointed out the same as well on his podcast. I don't really care who wins this series really. Once OKC lost I didn't really care about the Finals either way. And LeBron doesn't really have any excuse for his beyond crappy J but he is being asked to do too much. At age 31 with tired legs you can't ask him to anchor your D, be the primary playmaker, and play in the post/drive that often. Of course a lot of this is LEBron's own doing because he can't hit a J to save his life.

I am pretty sure Love is gone in the off-season but with Kyrie at the helm here I don't see Cavs having a chance to beat anyone really good unless he takes a giant step as a playmaker/floor general/defender.

[Basileus777]

Honestly, I think what LeBron needs to be doing for this Cavs team to win is simply too much to ask of a player with as little rest as he's been getting. They're asking him to anchor their defense by playing the 4 AND asking him to post up or barrel to the basket every single possession as well as bring the ball up the court. That's too much when Lue can't even find smart minutes for him to rest in.

I feel the same way pretty much. And Nate Duncan pointed out the same as well on his podcast. I don't really care who wins this series really. Once OKC lost I didn't really care about the Finals either way. And LeBron doesn't really have any excuse for his beyond crappy J but he is being asked to do too much. At age 31 with tired legs you can't ask him to anchor your D, be the primary playmaker, and play in the post/drive that often. Of course a lot of this is LEBron's own doing because he can't hit a J to save his life.

I am pretty sure Love is gone in the off-season but with Kyrie at the helm here I don't see Cavs having a chance to beat anyone really good unless he takes a giant step as a playmaker/floor general/defender.

It is asking him to do too much, but as you say much of it is a result of the roster and rotation construction his own input and lack of a jumper have created. Well that and Mozgov losing his ability to play basketball. Build a team of largely spot up shooters and big men that can't stay on the floor against the Warriors and you're left with little else other than to lean on LeBron to be superman.

[DreDay]

I'm not saying he wasn't hurt then. But he came back, was great. A bad game? He's hurt! Then he drops 30, he's back! Then a bad game? He's hurt! Then he plays well, he's back! Everyone's a little banged up, he's not hurt. He played poorly in game 3 this series b/c he was disinterested. He was off vs OKC because he was well defended.

Yeah, not sure where you're getting this on and off hurt thing. Would say 99% of Warriors fans thinks he's hurt no matter what his point totals are, because we've watched him for his whole career and know this isn't how he normally moves.

Because whenever I'm watching TV, there is this constant back and forth, and I know some don't see him as hurt. Personally I don't, never did. He was playing well since his second game back, then whenever he plays poorly I see the "hurt" thing come up. I don't believe it until there's actual proof.

Edit: And I just saw the above about not being 100 percent, which is fine and I totally buy that. But nobody is at 100 percent right now, absolutely nobody. So its just not a valid excuse there either to me. He's just not played well.

Are you talking about JVG arguing to himself? That's nothing, and hardly something to create this narrative out of.

Further, how are you ever going to get actual proof that he's hurt though? If you don't watch Curry a lot, it may be hard to see but considering fans/guys close to the team say that he's not moving like he used to, and Curry himself citing that he's sitting out the Olympics for his knee...for me that's enough proof to say he's not 100%, and not like most players either.

[CKRT]

Yeah, not sure where you're getting this on and off hurt thing. Would say 99% of Warriors fans thinks he's hurt no matter what his point totals are, because we've watched him for his whole career and know this isn't how he normally moves.

Because whenever I'm watching TV, there is this constant back and forth, and I know some don't see him as hurt. Personally I don't, never did. He was playing well since his second game back, then whenever he plays poorly I see the "hurt" thing come up. I don't believe it until there's actual proof.

Edit: And I just saw the above about not being 100 percent, which is fine and I totally buy that. But nobody is at 100 percent right now, absolutely nobody. So its just not a valid excuse there either to me. He's just not played well.

Are you talking about JVG arguing to himself? That's nothing, and hardly something to create this narrative out of.

Further, how are you ever going to get actual proof that he's hurt though? If you don't watch Curry a lot, it may be hard to see but considering fans/guys close to the team say that he's not moving like he used to, and Curry himself citing that he's sitting out the Olympics for his knee...for me that's enough proof to say he's not 100%, and not like most players either.

The way he moves now are in these big arcs. He is definitely still feeling that MCL sprain because he can't make the lateral cuts he was making all season long.I say that as someone that cannot stand the Warriors and I totally understand why people irrationally hate LeBron now.

[Asianiac_24]

Here is the biggest issue with LeBron for me.

First of all, LeBron is obviously a great player. His peak is highly regarded as one of the best on this board, and his resume speaks for himself. Put him on a team with a bunch of no names who knows their roles and shoot 3s well and you are guaranteed AT LEAST 50 wins. LeBron gives you a high floor to work with, so your team would always be competitive in any given game.

However, there seems to be a clear diminishing return with him. He is way too ball dominant, and if you are not a 3 point shooter, you will not do well with him. He teamed up with all-stars Wade/Bosh and now Irving/Love, yet his team has never truly been dominant. He gives you a high floor, but he also gives you a clear ceiling with diminishing returns.

His team, on paper, should be winning 60+ games in its sleep. Yet, they only won 57 games. They looked far from dominant in the playoffs, losing 2 games to the Raptors despite having arguably 2 teammates better than the opponent's best. In the Finals now his team has so far completely been out-classed by the Warriors.

[tone wone]

Here is the biggest issue with LeBron for me.

First of all, LeBron is obviously a great player. His peak is highly regarded as one of the best on this board, and his resume speaks for himself. Put him on a team with a bunch of no names who knows their roles and shoot 3s well and you are guaranteed AT LEAST 50 wins. LeBron gives you a high floor to work with, so your team would always be competitive in any given game.

However, there seems to be a clear diminishing return with him. He is way too ball dominant, and if you are not a 3 point shooter, you will not do well with him. He teamed up with all-stars Wade/Bosh and now Irving/Love, yet his team has never truly been dominant. He gives you a high floor, but he also gives you a clear ceiling with diminishing returns.

His team, on paper, should be winning 60+ games in its sleep. Yet, they only won 57 games. They looked far from dominant in the playoffs, losing 2 games to the Raptors despite having arguably 2 teammates better than the opponent's best. In the Finals now his team has so far completely been out-classed by the Warriors.

Define "truly dominant"?

I will never agree with the "high floor-low ceiling" assessment. The logic that the guy who is responsible for raising the floor beyond a teams actual talent level is also responsible for limiting his really successful teams will never make sense to me.

[PaulieWal]

Here is the biggest issue with LeBron for me.

First of all, LeBron is obviously a great player. His peak is highly regarded as one of the best on this board, and his resume speaks for himself. Put him on a team with a bunch of no names who knows their roles and shoot 3s well and you are guaranteed AT LEAST 50 wins. LeBron gives you a high floor to work with, so your team would always be competitive in any given game.

However, there seems to be a clear diminishing return with him. He is way too ball dominant, and if you are not a 3 point shooter, you will not do well with him. He teamed up with all-stars Wade/Bosh and now Irving/Love, yet his team has never truly been dominant. He gives you a high floor, but he also gives you a clear ceiling with diminishing returns.

His team, on paper, should be winning 60+ games in its sleep. Yet, they only won 57 games. They looked far from dominant in the playoffs, losing 2 games to the Raptors despite having arguably 2 teammates better than the opponent's best. In the Finals now his team has so far completely been out-classed by the Warriors.

2013 Heat were truly dominant in the RS. They would have been dominant in the PS too but Wade's knee was really bad which helped the Pacers and Spurs play off of him.

As for him being ball dominant, he did try to have Irving play as the primary ball handler when he first returned. Who exactly is he supposed to give the ball up to on this team? Irving is a gifted 1 on 1 scorer but horrible as a playmaker/floor general.

As much as Wade was aging with his bad knees LeBron did underestimate Wade's high IQ and how much easier Wade made the game for him with his on point passes to get him easy baskets and make plays for others.

[HeartBreakKid]

Wade did pretty well with James, I really don't get why people keep saying James has to play with a 3 point shooter. If a player has good b-ball IQ they will be able to play with James, Wade showed this...

[RSCD3_]

Wade did pretty well with James, I really don't get why people keep saying James has to play with a 3 point shooter. If a player has good b-ball IQ they will be able to play with James, Wade showed this...

When the 3 point shooters are standing on the 3 point line like statues they are much easier to defend, miami used to incorporate a lot more motion when lebeon was in the post, while the cavaliers just dont due anything when lebron is posting up, it makes them simpler to stop than if more players were setting screens

[dreamshake]

He teamed up with all-stars Wade/Bosh and now Irving/Love, yet his team has never truly been dominant.

How many teams have had a more dominant stretch than those Heat teams? They won back-to-back titles, went to 4 straight Finals and had the 2nd longest win streak ever.

His team, on paper, should be winning 60+ games in its sleep. Yet, they only won 57 games.

Cavs 2nd best player missed almost half the season. LeBron is 31 years old. There's absolutely no reason why he should be expending the energy to carry a team to regular season wins in November. If you want to see what he's capable of in the regular season, he carried Mo Williams and Ilgauskas to back-to-back 66 and 61 win seasons.

They looked far from dominant in the playoffs, losing 2 games to the Raptors despite having arguably 2 teammates better than the opponent's best.

They swept the first 2 rounds. OKC lost a game to Dallas when Raymond Felton (!!!) went off on them, GSW lost games to Houston and Portland. You're just being disrespectful to Toronto - they're a good team and they match up well with us. They won games against the Spurs and Thunder this season as well.

In the Finals now his team has so far completely been out-classed by the Warriors.

Yeah, they're really, really good. They won more games than any team in league history. The Cavs don't match up well with them. I don't think the Cavs have been "completely out-classed". GSW won a couple of blow-outs at home, then Cavs blew them out, then lost a close one where they had a lead most of the game.

[JordansBulls]

He teamed up with all-stars Wade/Bosh and now Irving/Love, yet his team has never truly been dominant.

How many teams have had a more dominant stretch than those Heat teams? They won back-to-back titles, went to 4 straight Finals and had the 2nd longest win streak ever.

Yes but truth be told he has been down at least 3-2 every year of his career in the playoffs or worse even years when he has won the title and even with HCA he was down those two years. Each of the other all time greats has dominated a playoff run without something like that happening and this with joining two stars in both instances.

[dreamshake]

He teamed up with all-stars Wade/Bosh and now Irving/Love, yet his team has never truly been dominant.

How many teams have had a more dominant stretch than those Heat teams? They won back-to-back titles, went to 4 straight Finals and had the 2nd longest win streak ever.

Yes but truth be told he has been down at least 3-2 every year of his career in the playoffs or worse even years when he has won the title and even with HCA he was down those two years. Each of the other all time greats has dominated a playoff run without something like that happening and this with joining two stars in both instances.

So the Warriors haven't been dominant this year then?

[JordansBulls]

How many teams have had a more dominant stretch than those Heat teams? They won back-to-back titles, went to 4 straight Finals and had the 2nd longest win streak ever.

Yes but truth be told he has been down at least 3-2 every year of his career in the playoffs or worse even years when he has won the title and even with HCA he was down those two years. Each of the other all time greats has dominated a playoff run without something like that happening and this with joining two stars in both instances.

So the Warriors haven't been dominant this year then?

Don't consider a team down 3-1 in the playoffs dominant. Sure for the regular season but not playoffs have they been dominant otherwise might as well say 2000 Lakers were dominant going the distance in 2 series or the Celtics in 2008 or Rockets in 1995. You can win but doesn't mean you were dominant in doing so. And dominant means where you knew without a shadow of a doubt that so and so team would win the series. That wasn't the case with GSW vs OKC when down 3-1 or Rockets 1995 or Heat in 2012 when down 3-2 or 2013 vs Spurs down 3-2.

[dreamshake]

Yes but truth be told he has been down at least 3-2 every year of his career in the playoffs or worse even years when he has won the title and even with HCA he was down those two years. Each of the other all time greats has dominated a playoff run without something like that happening and this with joining two stars in both instances.

So the Warriors haven't been dominant this year then?

Don't consider a team down 3-1 in the playoffs dominant. Sure for the regular season but not playoffs have they been dominant otherwise might as well say 2000 Lakers were dominant going the distance in 2 series or the Celtics in 2008 or Rockets in 1995.

Doesn't seem like you're accounting for strength of opponent at all though. 2013 Spurs were really good. OKC this year was really good. If you get behind to a really good team, but then put in great performances on the road to come back and beat them, that's really impressive. I don't see why that excludes you from being "dominant". I think beating a great team in 7 is much more impressive than beating a weak team in 4.

[Dr Positivity]

Here is the biggest issue with LeBron for me.

First of all, LeBron is obviously a great player. His peak is highly regarded as one of the best on this board, and his resume speaks for himself. Put him on a team with a bunch of no names who knows their roles and shoot 3s well and you are guaranteed AT LEAST 50 wins. LeBron gives you a high floor to work with, so your team would always be competitive in any given game.

However, there seems to be a clear diminishing return with him. He is way too ball dominant, and if you are not a 3 point shooter, you will not do well with him. He teamed up with all-stars Wade/Bosh and now Irving/Love, yet his team has never truly been dominant. He gives you a high floor, but he also gives you a clear ceiling with diminishing returns.

His team, on paper, should be winning 60+ games in its sleep. Yet, they only won 57 games. They looked far from dominant in the playoffs, losing 2 games to the Raptors despite having arguably 2 teammates better than the opponent's best. In the Finals now his team has so far completely been out-classed by the Warriors.

I don't know if I agree or not. I think Kyrie and Love just aren't that amazing of players. First off Kyrie's hype is inflated by how offensive stats friendly a position PG is. I'd argue the list of PGs better than him isn't smaller than the amount of like the list of PFs better than Ibaka or something, or SGs better than Danny Green in a less strange shooting year for him. Love is just... I dunno. He still has great RPM and he could be suffering from playing with Lebron problems, but I feel like there's holes in his game being exposed beyond that and a case can be made he already had one of the least impressive skillsets for a 25ppg high TS% type of scorer ever in Minnesota. I never looked at his post moves in MIN and thought he was hitting teams with devastating footwork and counters or anything and marvelled at how well he scored in the post looking like he had average moves. He's always been a good not lockdown open jumpshooter. Good ball handler but not a stunning face-up threat. Lamarcus Aldridge passed the eye test a lot more than Love at the time in my opinion. Aldridge had a visually beautiful game and set of moves and his size allowed him to shoot over opponents more easily. So when Love goes to Cleveland and all of a sudden he's not some awesome isolation post scorer and missing open shots, it's not that out of the blue for me. What was Minnesota Love really THAT awesome at as a scorer in retrospect? Drawing fouls on pumpfakes and in the post? As for the rest of the Cavs I'm impressed by their depth and Dan Gilbert's pocket, but Lebron is also responsible for some of players like JR and Delly's effectiveness.

The Heat didn't get to all out dominance but 2 titles including a 27 win streak season is pretty good, especially considering Wade existed his prime right when they were figuring it out style of play/chemistry wise. I do think that Bosh suffered statistically but he was still almost as effective a player overall for defensive reasons. Overall the Heat's dominance was strung up by the salary cap and part of the reason their role players ended up making it work is Lebron

[Rerisen]

LeBron isn't as great as he once was, but I don't see how anyone can be putting it mostly on him to make up a +5 Point Differential in team strength.

Even peak LeBron would be facing an uphill battle. In hindsight it looks like the Warriors just didn't care about Game 3, they tend to lose focus, which says something considering how much they still win. That is also what Kerr said, they treated it like a November game.

I don't think these teams are that close.

[Greatness]

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