2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[sp6r=underrated]

Sincere Question: Does the extent of Morris's injury color your view of Jokic's 2022 campaign?

[Colbinii]

Sincere Question: Does the extent of Morris's injury color your view of Jokic's 2022 campaign?

No, Morris was the instigator and I am a big believer in intent when it comes to actions [Physically and verbally].

[sp6r=underrated]

Sincere Question: Does the extent of Morris's injury color your view of Jokic's 2022 campaign?

No, Morris was the instigator and I am a big believer in intent when it comes to actions [Physically and verbally].

Fair enough: but I think the intent is what damn Jokic for me. His intent was to put his full body weight into Morris back at speed.

A reasonable person would know that 300 pound man putting his full body weight at speed into someone's back could cause serious injury, which it did in this case.

I understand many will feel different. Morris did give a cheap shot. He choose to turn around after issuing the cheap shot assuming Jokic wouldn't hit him.

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm curious how long the Nuggets can survive this cable blackout.

Sports are like any other habit. If people stop watching long enough, getting them back is likely to be very hard.

Other takeaways:

1. The Bay Area has embraced these Warriors as much as non-football team in the US can be embraced.
2. NY still loves the knicks not nets.
2. Magic have no fans.

[parsnips33]

I'm curious how long the Nuggets can survive this cable blackout.

Sports are like any other habit. If people stop watching long enough, getting them back is likely to be very hard.

Other takeaways:

1. The Bay Area has embraced these Warriors as much as non-football team in the US can be embraced.
2. NY still loves the knicks not nets.
2. Magic have no fans.

We need another Warriors Cavs finals

[Doctor MJ]

Sincere Question: Does the extent of Morris's injury color your view of Jokic's 2022 campaign?

Short answer: Not really.

But there's a lot to this, so

Long answer:

First thing I want to say up front is that were I the NBA, Jokic would be put on notice that we will not give him benefit of the doubt any more. I'd state on clear terms that whatever he may not have understood before, now he understands that he is a literal weapon out there, and that he has to be judged accordingly.

So while Patrick Beverley doing a full on shove in response to mere words is a mere annoyance, Jokic doing anything intentional to another player has to be seen as an intention to cause harm at least to the level that Morris has had. We can't have players in the NBA who are regularly putting other players' careers in jeopardy because they can't hold their temper.

But now to take a step back, I think the Beverley comparison is important.

Let's look at this first from Jokic's side, and then we'll head over to Morris.

I keep seeing talk as if a shoulder-check is the most dangerous thing a man can do. C'mon, it's not at all. It's literally holding yourself back in the sense that you're not using any of the parts of your body designed to strike with the most acute force. It's a bit like pistol whipping someone rather than firing a bullet into them. Aggressive, violent behavior, but specifically using the means available to do something less destructive than you could have.

I think it's realistic to believe that Jokic had no idea could put a guy Morris' size - he was a 245 pound center in college, remember, this is a big dude we're talking about - into this kind of danger by doing what he did. I think it's reasonable to give Jokic this benefit of the doubt, but not the next.

Now, even if I couldn't give Jokic the benefit of the doubt here, I have to confess I'm not sure how it would affect my MVP perspective right now. I frankly think it understandable if the incident is a reason why people don't vote for him for MVP - though I think such a stance really needs to be thought through and sincerely justified, not some cheap way to dismiss the guy.

But my view of Jokic as a person will radically change if this becomes a habit.

Okay, so Morris.

As I see it, when you pop a guy and then immediately turn your back on a man, you're trying to get him to shove you from behind. You do this for the consequences of the perception that the other guy lost his cool and started it. In NBA basketball of course, there are the additional benefits of the punishment the other guy will get for resorting to outright violence on the course, which loom very notably more enticing when you're a role player and you're doing this to a superstar.

I think this is in the ballpark of what happened, and I think it wasn't just Jokic who didn't realize how vulnerable Morris was, I think Morris himself had no thought that he could get hurt this badly, even if Jokic did a considerably more straight forward type of push.

And this is entirely possible, because we're talking about whiplash. Remember, this is about the neck, which is not a part of Morris' body that Jokic hit. He hit him in the back. Entirely possible both guys were thinking in terms of torso-torso collisions like they have all the time in the game, just amp'd a bit more. Unless you've experienced whiplash before, or you've known someone severely effected by it, you've probably never thought all that much about how easy it is to get severe whiplash.

I say this as someone who had no idea what I was in for after a car accident when I realized immediately I'd experienced whiplash. It hurt in the moment yes, but it got worse days later and I don't even remember how long it took before it stopped being noticeable. Months.

I'm certainly surprised that Morris has had to be out of the game for the length that he has, but I'm not surprised that whiplash can be this bad.

All this to say, I see this is as a likely "play with fire, sometimes you get burned" scenario. That may seem unfairly judgmental of Morris, but aside from the fact that we all know what his reputation was before this happened, I'm not saying Morris deserves this and I'm not advocating for any punishment for him. I want him to get better. I'll be glad for him when he's back on the court.

Rather, it's a matter of whether I'd be looking to throw the book at Jokic after the event took place. To do that, I'd really have to believe the worst possible perspective on Jokic here, and I just don't.

[sp6r=underrated]

Sincere Question: Does the extent of Morris's injury color your view of Jokic's 2022 campaign?

Short answer: Not really.

But there's a lot to this, so

Long answer:

First thing I want to say up front is that were I the NBA, Jokic would be put on notice that we will not give him benefit of the doubt any more. I'd state on clear terms that whatever he may not have understood before, now he understands that he is a literal weapon out there, and that he has to be judged accordingly.

So while Patrick Beverley doing a full on shove in response to mere words is a mere annoyance, Jokic doing anything intentional to another player has to be seen as an intention to cause harm at least to the level that Morris has had. We can't have players in the NBA who are regularly putting other players' careers in jeopardy because they can't hold their temper.

But now to take a step back, I think the Beverley comparison is important.

Let's look at this first from Jokic's side, and then we'll head over to Morris.

I keep seeing talk as if a shoulder-check is the most dangerous thing a man can do. C'mon, it's not at all. It's literally holding yourself back in the sense that you're not using any of the parts of your body designed to strike with the most acute force. It's a bit like pistol whipping someone rather than firing a bullet into them. Aggressive, violent behavior, but specifically using the means available to do something less destructive than you could have.

I think it's realistic to believe that Jokic had no idea could put a guy Morris' size - he was a 245 pound center in college, remember, this is a big dude we're talking about - into this kind of danger by doing what he did. I think it's reasonable to give Jokic this benefit of the doubt, but not the next.

Now, even if I couldn't give Jokic the benefit of the doubt here, I have to confess I'm not sure how it would affect my MVP perspective right now. I frankly think it understandable if the incident is a reason why people don't vote for him for MVP - though I think such a stance really needs to be thought through and sincerely justified, not some cheap way to dismiss the guy.

But my view of Jokic as a person will radically change if this becomes a habit.

Okay, so Morris.

As I see it, when you pop a guy and then immediately turn your back on a man, you're trying to get him to shove you from behind. You do this for the consequences of the perception that the other guy lost his cool and started it. In NBA basketball of course, there are the additional benefits of the punishment the other guy will get for resorting to outright violence on the course, which loom very notably more enticing when you're a role player and you're doing this to a superstar.

I think this is in the ballpark of what happened, and I think it wasn't just Jokic who didn't realize how vulnerable Morris was, I think Morris himself had no thought that he could get hurt this badly, even if Jokic did a considerably more straight forward type of push.

And this is entirely possible, because we're talking about whiplash. Remember, this is about the neck, which is not a part of Morris' body that Jokic hit. He hit him in the back. Entirely possible both guys were thinking in terms of torso-torso collisions like they have all the time in the game, just amp'd a bit more. Unless you've experienced whiplash before, or you've known someone severely effected by it, you've probably never thought all that much about how easy it is to get severe whiplash.

I say this as someone who had no idea what I was in for after a car accident when I realized immediately I'd experienced whiplash. It hurt in the moment yes, but it got worse days later and I don't even remember how long it took before it stopped being noticeable. Months.

I'm certainly surprised that Morris has had to be out of the game for the length that he has, but I'm not surprised that whiplash can be this bad.

All this to say, I see this is as a likely "play with fire, sometimes you get burned" scenario. That may seem unfairly judgmental of Morris, but aside from the fact that we all know what his reputation was before this happened, I'm not saying Morris deserves this and I'm not advocating for any punishment for him. I want him to get better. I'll be glad for him when he's back on the court.

Rather, it's a matter of whether I'd be looking to throw the book at Jokic after the event took place. To do that, I'd really have to believe the worst possible perspective on Jokic here, and I just don't.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. A lot of people treat this as a joke question so I appreciate you and Colbinni treating it as ther serious matter it was.

You are both correct that we should focus on the likelihood in injury not the actual outcome. Ten years ago, feel old yet, I felt Artest elbow to Harden's head warranted a year suspension and possible lifetime ban. If Morris suffered the worst case possible from the Jokic hit, Harden suffered the best a short-term concusssion with seemingly no significant long-term damage. He could have died from that elbow. It wasn't appreciate then. It still isn't appreciated now with Artest's general celebration in basketball circles.

With Jokic I do see his method of retaliation more severe than warranted. He was entitled to retitliate for that bush league shot. And I think your interpretation of Morris's decision to turn his back is correct. But the correct move was a shove. I think the Jokic running shot to the lower back is a lot worse than what was warranted.

As to the MVP, Jokic to me is the best player this year by a wide margin. What he is doing as a big man in a league designed to kill guys with his body type is something I struggle to understand. So I'll probably vote for him for MVP if I had a vote.

But if someone over the final quarter closes the gap and makes it close, I might vote against him as a subtle message.

Still I have to think it over.

[sp6r=underrated]

Kevin Durant has been in the NBA a long time and has been an elite player almost since the day he entered the league.

I have to confess I still don't know how to regard him.

Does anyone else feel the same way?

[Dr Positivity]

Kevin Durant has been in the NBA a long time and has been an elite player almost since the day he entered the league.

I have to confess I still don't know how to regard him.

Does anyone else feel the same way?

I cannot trust my opinions about the last 5-6 years of basketball as much for personal reasons, but I was never the biggest fan even when I was locked in to the league, and subjectively I always felt Dirk was better for tall forwards, along with some other guys like Kobe or peak Wade. Durant is possibly the GOAT pickup basketball talent of all NBA players in history but the relationship between that and NBA systems has always seemed slightly uneasy to me. It's made more confusing by the difference between regular season and playoffs as he made a good case for himself in the latter. In the 2017 season the Warriors dropping to 67-15 and Durant not being able to carry the team that great when Curry was off the floor, tied into my feelings that he is overrated, but the 16-1 playoff run is exactly the mockery of the league you'd expect adding a top 20 all time player to champion/finalist team the previous two years.

[sp6r=underrated]

Will Russ be able to get a contract after this one expires?

[MartinToVaught]

Kevin Durant has been in the NBA a long time and has been an elite player almost since the day he entered the league.

I have to confess I still don't know how to regard him.

Does anyone else feel the same way?

I've never liked the guy, not even in his OKC days. I also think he's somewhat overrated because he's always been on mega-stacked teams. We've never seen him carry a team like LeBron, Duncan, Kawhi, etc. Leaving an already-loaded OKC team and joining Steph's 73-win team that had just beaten him still speaks volumes about not only his character, but also his game and the level of confidence he has in it.

[MartinToVaught]

I'm curious how long the Nuggets can survive this cable blackout.

Sports are like any other habit. If people stop watching long enough, getting them back is likely to be very hard.

Other takeaways:

1. The Bay Area has embraced these Warriors as much as non-football team in the US can be embraced.
2. NY still loves the knicks not nets.
2. Magic have no fans.

Can't speak for every team, but the Clippers' ratings being this low is Bally's fault. A lot of fans don't even get Bally on their TV provider and have no choice but to turn to illegal streams that obviously don't show up in the ratings figures.

Now, to be totally fair, that number is also deflated a bit because it appears to only count Bally SoCal. Clippers games are also simulcast on Bally San Diego and some fans watch them on there instead.

Regardless, I don't think it's a coincidence that literally every NBC Sports team is in the top half of the league in local ratings, even Sacramento, while Bally is tanking in large markets like LA, Dallas and Atlanta. Even the Suns, with the best record in the league coming off a Finals appearance, are getting worse ratings than a tanking Blazers team and the Lakers' dumpster fire. That seems like a systemic problem with the network to me.

[sp6r=underrated]

I was reading some posts on the GB about how great it would be to have a Franchise Tag in the NBA. Leaving aside the merits of it, it won't work, the posts made clear to me a lot of fans genuinely dislike the players who entertain them.

[Texas Chuck]

The Morris play has zero impact on how I view Jokic as an MVP candidate. I think it was a reckless play, but I don't think his intent was to injure Morris, just to send a message, no taking liberties with me. And the fact that's its Morris has no impact on how I feel. If that was Steven Adams or Jrue Holiday or Harry Barnes I'd feel the same.

[falcolombardi]

I was reading some posts on the GB about how great it would be to have a Franchise Tag in the NBA. Leaving aside the merits of it, it won't work, the posts made clear to me a lot of fans genuinely dislike the players who entertain them.

how does that work?

also what do you mean fans hate the players?

[Texas Chuck]

So I saw a random Tim Duncan stat on twitter a couple days ago. In his entire career he was called for goal-tending a total of 15 times. For some context, JaVale McGee had a season with 36 and the typical league leader in a year has about 20.

Just another little thing that shows up nowhere in the stat sheet that illustrates just how sound a player Duncan was and because of things like this and his elite positioning he doesn't get the credit the guys flying around the court get. Because he didn't have to.

But that's a crazy stat for a guy with nearly 3400 blocks.

[falcolombardi]

So I saw a random Tim Duncan stat on twitter a couple days ago. In his entire career he was called for goal-tending a total of 15 times. For some context, JaVale McGee had a season with 36 and the typical league leader in a year has about 20.

Just another little thing that shows up nowhere in the stat sheet that illustrates just how sound a player Duncan was and because of things like this and his elite positioning he doesn't get the credit the guys flying around the court get. Because he didn't have to.

But that's a crazy stat for a guy with nearly 3400 blocks.

ben taylor made the argument that duncan was so good at blocking shots early in the realease and keeping the ball Alive that he lost dpoy's to shot blockers who blocks shots at their apex and send it to the rafters

sound defense doesnt get you awards as blocks/steals and cool 1vs1 moments do

[falcolombardi]

Kevin Durant has been in the NBA a long time and has been an elite player almost since the day he entered the league.

I have to confess I still don't know how to regard him.

Does anyone else feel the same way?

I've never liked the guy, not even in his OKC days. I also think he's somewhat overrated because he's always been on mega-stacked teams. We've never seen him carry a team like LeBron, Duncan, Kawhi, etc. Leaving an already-loaded OKC team and joining Steph's 73-win team that had just beaten him still speaks volumes about not only his character, but also his game and the level of confidence he has in it.

there is a legit argument to be made that chris Paul peaked higher as a offensive player

and i honestly agree

[Dr Positivity]

So I saw a random Tim Duncan stat on twitter a couple days ago. In his entire career he was called for goal-tending a total of 15 times. For some context, JaVale McGee had a season with 36 and the typical league leader in a year has about 20.

Just another little thing that shows up nowhere in the stat sheet that illustrates just how sound a player Duncan was and because of things like this and his elite positioning he doesn't get the credit the guys flying around the court get. Because he didn't have to.

But that's a crazy stat for a guy with nearly 3400 blocks.

ben taylor made the argument that duncan was so good at blocking shots early in the realease and keeping the ball Alive that he lost dpoy's to shot blockers who blocks shots at their apex and send it to the rafters

sound defense doesnt get you awards as blocks/steals and cool 1vs1 moments do

Camby's DPOY will annoy me forever

[sp6r=underrated]

I was reading some posts on the GB about how great it would be to have a Franchise Tag in the NBA. Leaving aside the merits of it, it won't work, the posts made clear to me a lot of fans genuinely dislike the players who entertain them.

how does that work?

also what do you mean fans hate the players?

The basketball fans who wanted it proposed it similar to the NFL. NBA teams are eligible to franchise tag 1 player a year and it can be applied to players after their RFA contracts ends. Tagged players have the option of playing under the tag contract (1 year) or negotiating a long term contract with the team that tagged em. If you did it like NFL you could tag em 3 straight years.

If you did that, NBA players would have to play out Rookie Contract => RFA Contract => Franchise Tag Contracts, basically you aren't hitting free agency until you're 30.

As to why I think they hate the players so many comments that betrayed contempt "play here or leave the league" "play here and like it."

No one would be okay with a cartel of 30 companies doing this to them or someone they cared about. You have to have some level of disdain for the players