'17-'18 POY discussion

Moderators: penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063

Dr Spaceman
General Manager
Posts: 8,575
And1: 11,211
Joined: Jan 16, 2013
   

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1501 » by Dr Spaceman » Wed May 9, 2018 4:58 pm

ardee wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
I’m gonna be completely honest here. I don’t understand the reverence for Golden State other than people just assuming that past performance will be replicated. Yeah they crushed everyone’s would last year. This year, though, there has been no indication, statistically or otherwise, that they have been the best team. They have more talent than anyone else, but at no point this season have they played like the squad they were last year. I don’t assume they can just flip the switch, because this is only year 2 of their current squad, and they don’t have LeBron. Lebron is just way better than anyone on that roster, and I think there’s a gap. He can do things Durant and Curry can only dream of. I’m comfortable saying he can be lazy and then flip the switch. I don’t feel the same about Curry and Durant, who actually have more of a history of struggling in deep playoff series than the reverse.


So how do you feel about Cavs/GSW as a potential Finals series? Obviously GSW would still be the favorite but by how much?


Eh. This one I’m not actually worried about until the Cavs prove they have a defense worth a damn. They may be able to score with the Warriors even without Kyrie (though I doubt it slightly), but the Warriors will run roughshod over any team that does not execute defensively and especially One that doesn’t get back in transition. It’s be over in 4 or 5.
“I’m not the fastest guy on the court, but I can dictate when the race begins.”
User avatar
INKtastic
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 23,259
And1: 5,027
Joined: May 26, 2003
Location: Ohio
Contact:
     

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1502 » by INKtastic » Wed May 9, 2018 5:00 pm

some up to date playoff numbers:

LeBron Win Share/48 - .337, 3rd best in league history (since all stats tracked), Harden .229 is 3rd best on his own team.
LeBron 35.5 PER, Harden 27.4
LeBron 34.3 PPG, Harden 28.5.
LeBorn 9.0 APG, Harden 7.4
LeBron has led his team in points and assists all 11 game this playoffs.
http://www.inktastic.com/ Custom T-Shirts and more
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 51,103
And1: 27,568
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1503 » by dhsilv2 » Wed May 9, 2018 5:06 pm

INKtastic wrote:some up to date playoff numbers:

LeBron Win Share/48 - .337, 3rd best in league history (since all stats tracked), Harden .229 is 3rd best on his own team.
LeBron 35.5 PER, Harden 27.4
LeBron 34.3 PPG, Harden 28.5.
LeBorn 9.0 APG, Harden 7.4
LeBron has led his team in points and assists all 11 game this playoffs.


Harden played Utah with Gobert. Lebron did not.
User avatar
Clyde Frazier
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,249
And1: 26,132
Joined: Sep 07, 2010

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1504 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed May 9, 2018 5:12 pm

The rockets to me are the first real threat the warriors have faced in the kerr era. Could’ve been the spurs last year if not for the kawhi injury. I’ll obviously acknowledge the cavs winning in 2016, but will also stand pat on it being over in 5 if draymond didn’t get himself suspended. Totally changed the momentum of the series.

That said, I’m feeling warriors in 6 here. We haven’t seen either team playing consistently at their best en route to the conference finals, so I don’t really see houston being more “ready” for this match up. Even with the additions of mbah a moute (how healthy is he?) and tucker, they aren’t really going to stop durant. Curry seems as close to 100% as he’s going to be at this point, and again maybe paul can disrupt him some, but don’t see him throwing him off his game, either.

If Paul / Harden + Curry / Durant basically play each other to a standstill, it could come down klay or eric gordon getting hot for a few games or draymond being the driving force of a few lethal runs to decide games. How deep do d’antoni and kerr have to go into their rotations? A lot of factors at play here.

Wouldn’t be surprised if the rockets win. Wouldn’t be surprised if it goes 7. Gut still says warriors, though. I’m very intrigued by this series and glad we got what we expected. Can’t wait.
Missing Rings
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,427
And1: 774
Joined: Dec 27, 2017

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1505 » by Missing Rings » Wed May 9, 2018 5:13 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
INKtastic wrote:some up to date playoff numbers:

LeBron Win Share/48 - .337, 3rd best in league history (since all stats tracked), Harden .229 is 3rd best on his own team.
LeBron 35.5 PER, Harden 27.4
LeBron 34.3 PPG, Harden 28.5.
LeBorn 9.0 APG, Harden 7.4
LeBron has led his team in points and assists all 11 game this playoffs.


Harden played Utah with Gobert. Lebron did not.


LeBron also played against the 13th and 5th ranked defenses in the NBA while Harden faced the 27th ranked defense and the 2nd ranked defense missing their second best defender in Ricky Rubio.
User avatar
INKtastic
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 23,259
And1: 5,027
Joined: May 26, 2003
Location: Ohio
Contact:
     

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1506 » by INKtastic » Wed May 9, 2018 5:14 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
INKtastic wrote:some up to date playoff numbers:

LeBron Win Share/48 - .337, 3rd best in league history (since all stats tracked), Harden .229 is 3rd best on his own team.
LeBron 35.5 PER, Harden 27.4
LeBron 34.3 PPG, Harden 28.5.
LeBorn 9.0 APG, Harden 7.4
LeBron has led his team in points and assists all 11 game this playoffs.


Harden played Utah with Gobert. Lebron did not.


Harden has played the #27 and #2 defenses, LeBron has played the #13 and #5 defenses.

and: Harden ws/48 - .229 is 3rd best on his own team. The guy who actually had the matchup with Gobert has the rockets best WS/48.
http://www.inktastic.com/ Custom T-Shirts and more
User avatar
MisterHibachi
RealGM
Posts: 18,657
And1: 19,075
Joined: Oct 06, 2013
Location: Toronto
 

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1507 » by MisterHibachi » Wed May 9, 2018 5:20 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
INKtastic wrote:some up to date playoff numbers:

LeBron Win Share/48 - .337, 3rd best in league history (since all stats tracked), Harden .229 is 3rd best on his own team.
LeBron 35.5 PER, Harden 27.4
LeBron 34.3 PPG, Harden 28.5.
LeBorn 9.0 APG, Harden 7.4
LeBron has led his team in points and assists all 11 game this playoffs.


Harden played Utah with Gobert. Lebron did not.


He also played cupcake Minnesota.
"He looked like Batman coming out of nowhere"
dontcalltimeout
Senior
Posts: 508
And1: 547
Joined: Nov 21, 2013
Location: city of the big shoulders
 

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1508 » by dontcalltimeout » Wed May 9, 2018 5:22 pm

Wow, we're still using winshare and per to compare players? in 2018?

On a more serious note: The Rockets have been a much better team than the Cavs and haven't needed heroic performances from Harden. It's hard to fault him for not comparing favorably to LeBron who has to do much more for his team to have a chance.

I still think LeBron is the better player but to reduce it to 34.3 PPG vs 28.5 PPG!!! is silly.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 51,103
And1: 27,568
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1509 » by dhsilv2 » Wed May 9, 2018 5:25 pm

Missing Rings wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
INKtastic wrote:some up to date playoff numbers:

LeBron Win Share/48 - .337, 3rd best in league history (since all stats tracked), Harden .229 is 3rd best on his own team.
LeBron 35.5 PER, Harden 27.4
LeBron 34.3 PPG, Harden 28.5.
LeBorn 9.0 APG, Harden 7.4
LeBron has led his team in points and assists all 11 game this playoffs.


Harden played Utah with Gobert. Lebron did not.


LeBron also played against the 13th and 5th ranked defenses in the NBA while Harden faced the 27th ranked defense and the 2nd ranked defense missing their second best defender in Ricky Rubio.


The jazz are a significantly better defensive team when Gobert is out there, the 2nd ranking wouldn't have been the case had he played 82 games.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 51,103
And1: 27,568
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1510 » by dhsilv2 » Wed May 9, 2018 5:26 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote:Wow, we're still using winshare and per to compare players? in 2018?

On a more serious note: The Rockets have been a much better team than the Cavs and haven't needed heroic performances from Harden. It's hard to fault him for not comparing favorably to LeBron who has to do much more for his team to have a chance.

I still think LeBron is the better player but to reduce it to 34.3 PPG vs 28.5 PPG!!! is silly.


I don't know why people aren't using BPM
Missing Rings
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,427
And1: 774
Joined: Dec 27, 2017

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1511 » by Missing Rings » Wed May 9, 2018 5:27 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Missing Rings wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Harden played Utah with Gobert. Lebron did not.


LeBron also played against the 13th and 5th ranked defenses in the NBA while Harden faced the 27th ranked defense and the 2nd ranked defense missing their second best defender in Ricky Rubio.


The jazz are a significantly better defensive team when Gobert is out there, the 2nd ranking wouldn't have been the case had he played 82 games.


It would have if Rubio didn't play all season :wink:
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 51,103
And1: 27,568
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1512 » by dhsilv2 » Wed May 9, 2018 5:27 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
INKtastic wrote:some up to date playoff numbers:

LeBron Win Share/48 - .337, 3rd best in league history (since all stats tracked), Harden .229 is 3rd best on his own team.
LeBron 35.5 PER, Harden 27.4
LeBron 34.3 PPG, Harden 28.5.
LeBorn 9.0 APG, Harden 7.4
LeBron has led his team in points and assists all 11 game this playoffs.


Harden played Utah with Gobert. Lebron did not.


He also played cupcake Minnesota.


Hard to comment on Butler, but he's 'an elite defender when healthy.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 51,103
And1: 27,568
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1513 » by dhsilv2 » Wed May 9, 2018 5:28 pm

INKtastic wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
INKtastic wrote:some up to date playoff numbers:

LeBron Win Share/48 - .337, 3rd best in league history (since all stats tracked), Harden .229 is 3rd best on his own team.
LeBron 35.5 PER, Harden 27.4
LeBron 34.3 PPG, Harden 28.5.
LeBorn 9.0 APG, Harden 7.4
LeBron has led his team in points and assists all 11 game this playoffs.


Harden played Utah with Gobert. Lebron did not.


Harden has played the #27 and #2 defenses, LeBron has played the #13 and #5 defenses.

and: Harden ws/48 - .229 is 3rd best on his own team. The guy who actually had the matchup with Gobert has the rockets best WS/48.


Gobert guards the other team...and of course WS is going to like a guy who scores off lobs and dunks, that's what WS likes.
User avatar
INKtastic
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 23,259
And1: 5,027
Joined: May 26, 2003
Location: Ohio
Contact:
     

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1514 » by INKtastic » Wed May 9, 2018 5:31 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote:Wow, we're still using winshare and per to compare players? in 2018?

On a more serious note: The Rockets have been a much better team than the Cavs and haven't needed heroic performances from Harden. It's hard to fault him for not comparing favorably to LeBron who has to do much more for his team to have a chance.

I still think LeBron is the better player but to reduce it to 34.3 PPG vs 28.5 PPG!!! is silly.


It's a good thing, because in the last last 4 games he shot 7-22, 8-22, 8-17, 9-22. And in the last two games he combined for 7 assists vs 11 turnovers. If LeBron played like that over a 4 game stretch, Toronto would be in the ECF.
http://www.inktastic.com/ Custom T-Shirts and more
User avatar
Outside
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 10,223
And1: 17,039
Joined: May 01, 2017
 

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1515 » by Outside » Wed May 9, 2018 5:58 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Yes and no. Agree with there are two types of bad shooting Harden, but I think both are adding value. The jumper harden however requires Paul to do something, not so much on that play but on other plays. I think of it like boxing. Normally a jab is really about control and setting people up, but for Harden 3's are both his jabs AND his knock out blows. Even on a bad shooting night teams have to stay on him, overly focus on where he is because he can just go nuts in a second. This creates opportunities for others, but sometimes the rockets other players don't realize they need to do something. That's when you get those games where nothing happens. Tonight (only saw the first half) I saw a lot of great examples of Paul playing off the Harden "jabs" if you will. I'm likely sounding like a crazy person with the boxing reference but it's the best way I can describe it.

Oh the rockets are going to just blow a game massively in the series at least one. They just need 4 wins and imo they have the firepower to have 4 great shooting nights and to be honest I'm not sure I don't like the rockets in a shootout where both teams can't miss against even the warriors. I might be under rating the warrior's defense this year, but they don't seem like the defensive team they've been in the past.


Right now, gun to my head, I’m choosing Houston as the favorite in this series. As the reg season went along, they sold me more and more, and honestly they’ve both demonstrated a higher average level of play and a higher ceiling than Golden State in the postseason (albeit with a lower floor as well). But looking at the range of outcomes here, I honestly just see more scenarios where the Rockets pull out the win, especially with HCA (which is far, FAR more crucial than I think anyone here is admitting-this honestly could decide the series). I pick Houston at home in game 7.

The Warriors just don’t look like the same team to me. They lack the energy and composure to hold leads and their defense has really fallen off. There’s no telling what we’re going to see from Curry but many people I trust (Especially Nate Duncan) are saying he’s being held back by the knee injury/conditioning. It certainly was a factor in 2016.

Golden State allowed like an 18-2 run in the 4th quarter against NOP even with the starters in the game. Even when they push through to dominant leads you never quite feel like it’s safe, whereas Houston just stomps on throats.

I don’t want this to all be about how bad GS looks to me, because Houston is amazing. To date truly one of the most impressive teams I’ve seen in the past decade. I’ve written so much about them I don’t want to rehash here- but I really, truly feel that if you isolated the 2018 season by itself, you’d have to conclude Houston was better. There’s the chance of course that GS could get back to 2017 level, but 2 things: 1. We haven’t seen it at any point this year or even an indication of it and 2. They really weren’t even tested last year in the way they will be by Houston. Cleveland was good, but the Warriors played 3 cupcake series before that where they barely broke a sweat.

We’ll see.


Agree with you completely here. The Jazz imo are a significantly better team than the pelicans, which I know is likely controversial. The rockets were great despite playing (because Gobert was playing and even without rubio) the best defense if not by far the best defense.

That said I see some conditioning issues with Curry, but unlike in 16 he seems like he can plant and elevate pretty well. As long as he can do that, he can beat a team with his jumper. Against the cavs that year his cuts and stops were very "soft" and he lost his timing and spacing. I'm optimistic that he'll play well. I really want to see a classic conference finals, but I'm fully expecting 6-7 games and over half to be blow outs.

You guys have been watching a different series than me apparently.

Warriors' defense has been really good. From a statistical standpoint, they have the best DRtg of any team in the playoffs. From an eye test standpoint, they are connected, active, and effective. The Spurs were limited offensively, but the Pelicans were really, really good. The Warriors' opponents in the first two rounds were a contrast in styles -- slow-tempo San Antonio and then New Orleans, who was the fastest pace team in the league -- and the Warriors defense played very well against both. Their switching, doubling, and rebounding (1st in DReb% among playoff teams) was very good. The run by the Pelicans was concerning, but that was more about the Warriors' turnovers and poor offensive execution leading to transition opportunities for the Pels. Even with the comeback, the game wasn't really in doubt. Kerr left Iguodala on the bench for the entire fourth quarter.

Curry shot great in his first game back but looked limited in his movement and timing in games 3 and 4. However, he looked much better in game 5. He had bounce and swagger and clearly felt much better. His timing is still not there, which was most evident to me with his ballhandling and passing, but it's coming. He was a much more effective player in game 5. He's active and effective on defense. Even with the residual limitations from his injury and the rust, he's averaging 24.5 pts, 5.3 reb, 3.5 ast, and 2.0 stl on 65.0 TS%. We'll see if he wears down like he did in 2016, but so far, I'm encouraged by what I see.

The Pelicans are really good. They're not deep enough to hang with Golden State, but they're talented, they're good at both ends, and they're competitors. Unlike, say, Portland, Toronto, or Minnesota, they didn't shrink in the moment. They played really well in game 2, and they forced the Warriors to raise their game to beat them. In game 3, the Warriors brought their B game and got thumped. There's a lot to like about this Pelicans team. The Jazz are good too, but don't sell New Orleans short.

Houston wanted the Warriors, and they got the Warriors. Houston's really good, but now we get to see if they're playoff good.
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
User avatar
Clyde Frazier
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,249
And1: 26,132
Joined: Sep 07, 2010

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1516 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed May 9, 2018 8:57 pm

Read on Twitter


...wow

Via Marc Stein:

In a vote of his peers, Dwane Casey of the Toronto Raptors has been selected as the National Basketball Coaches Association’s coach of the year for the 2017-18 season — while Brad Stevens of the Boston Celtics stunningly failed to win a single vote from fellow coaches.

The N.B.C.A. introduced its own Coach of the Year Award last season, based on polling of the league’s 30 head coaches after the regular season, and Casey was announced Wednesday as the winner just two days after the Raptors were swept out of the playoffs by the Cleveland Cavaliers. The award is separate from the N.B.A.’s Coach of the Year Award, which is voted on by members of the news media.

Casey and Stevens are both considered top contenders for the N.B.A.’s award, for which voters are asked to submit their top three selections in order.


https://nyti.ms/2KNfbJF
User avatar
Outside
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 10,223
And1: 17,039
Joined: May 01, 2017
 

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1517 » by Outside » Wed May 9, 2018 9:30 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
Read on Twitter


...wow

Via Marc Stein:

In a vote of his peers, Dwane Casey of the Toronto Raptors has been selected as the National Basketball Coaches Association’s coach of the year for the 2017-18 season — while Brad Stevens of the Boston Celtics stunningly failed to win a single vote from fellow coaches.

The N.B.C.A. introduced its own Coach of the Year Award last season, based on polling of the league’s 30 head coaches after the regular season, and Casey was announced Wednesday as the winner just two days after the Raptors were swept out of the playoffs by the Cleveland Cavaliers. The award is separate from the N.B.A.’s Coach of the Year Award, which is voted on by members of the news media.

Casey and Stevens are both considered top contenders for the N.B.A.’s award, for which voters are asked to submit their top three selections in order.


https://nyti.ms/2KNfbJF

It sounds like the coaches submitted a single vote for COY, not a 1-3 or 1-5 type ballot. Maybe part of this is that Casey was the runaway winner with a handful of other guys getting votes, and if they'd had a 1-3 or 1-5 ballot, Stevens would have been second on a lot of ballots and been top 5 on most.

I heard someone -- Zach Lowe? Tom Haberstroh? -- talk about the voting for 2015 finals MVP. Some people made a deal afterward that Curry didn't get any votes, but apparently multiple people who voted for LeBron said that if they'd voted for a Warrior, they would've voted for Curry, but because they only submitted one name, Curry got nothing. Wonder if this is the same type of thing here.

Either that, or mild-mannered Brad Stevens has done something amazing to piss off a lot of coaches.
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
dontcalltimeout
Senior
Posts: 508
And1: 547
Joined: Nov 21, 2013
Location: city of the big shoulders
 

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1518 » by dontcalltimeout » Wed May 9, 2018 9:30 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
Read on Twitter


...wow

Via Marc Stein:

In a vote of his peers, Dwane Casey of the Toronto Raptors has been selected as the National Basketball Coaches Association’s coach of the year for the 2017-18 season — while Brad Stevens of the Boston Celtics stunningly failed to win a single vote from fellow coaches.

The N.B.C.A. introduced its own Coach of the Year Award last season, based on polling of the league’s 30 head coaches after the regular season, and Casey was announced Wednesday as the winner just two days after the Raptors were swept out of the playoffs by the Cleveland Cavaliers. The award is separate from the N.B.A.’s Coach of the Year Award, which is voted on by members of the news media.

Casey and Stevens are both considered top contenders for the N.B.A.’s award, for which voters are asked to submit their top three selections in order.


https://nyti.ms/2KNfbJF


One thing I saw that mitigates this slightly, for the Coaches only submit 1 name (instead of the media award which is three names). It's possible out of 30 coaches many had Stevens as their 2nd or 3rd pick but that doesn't matter when you only submit your top choice.
User avatar
Clyde Frazier
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,249
And1: 26,132
Joined: Sep 07, 2010

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1519 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed May 9, 2018 10:16 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote: --


Outside wrote: --


Yeah, I did note this. He could be considered a top 3 or top 5 coach to the majority of coaches, and we wouldn’t know from this list. That said, it’s a little odd to see 29 other coaches all pass on picking him. It could be a combo of him being young or the coaches not taking the award too seriously (although, given you’re voting for your peers, i’m not as sure about the latter).

With regard to finals MVP, my appreciation for the award definitely lessened after they revealed the number of voters a few years ago. There are some intelligent members of the media who voted, but the selection of voters is so random, and it’s only like 11 people. Considering how many media members you have at the finals, why not push it to like 30-50 people for a more accurate result? I’d even suggest doing a top 3 voting to get the winner, but maybe that goes against what the award represents.

The finals MVP thing will never go away as an argument with casual fans, so that’s pretty frustrating.
User avatar
INKtastic
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 23,259
And1: 5,027
Joined: May 26, 2003
Location: Ohio
Contact:
     

Re: '17-'18 POY discussion 

Post#1520 » by INKtastic » Wed May 9, 2018 10:35 pm

Outside wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
Read on Twitter


...wow

Via Marc Stein:

In a vote of his peers, Dwane Casey of the Toronto Raptors has been selected as the National Basketball Coaches Association’s coach of the year for the 2017-18 season — while Brad Stevens of the Boston Celtics stunningly failed to win a single vote from fellow coaches.

The N.B.C.A. introduced its own Coach of the Year Award last season, based on polling of the league’s 30 head coaches after the regular season, and Casey was announced Wednesday as the winner just two days after the Raptors were swept out of the playoffs by the Cleveland Cavaliers. The award is separate from the N.B.A.’s Coach of the Year Award, which is voted on by members of the news media.

Casey and Stevens are both considered top contenders for the N.B.A.’s award, for which voters are asked to submit their top three selections in order.


https://nyti.ms/2KNfbJF

It sounds like the coaches submitted a single vote for COY, not a 1-3 or 1-5 type ballot. Maybe part of this is that Casey was the runaway winner with a handful of other guys getting votes, and if they'd had a 1-3 or 1-5 ballot, Stevens would have been second on a lot of ballots and been top 5 on most.

I heard someone -- Zach Lowe? Tom Haberstroh? -- talk about the voting for 2015 finals MVP. Some people made a deal afterward that Curry didn't get any votes, but apparently multiple people who voted for LeBron said that if they'd voted for a Warrior, they would've voted for Curry, but because they only submitted one name, Curry got nothing. Wonder if this is the same type of thing here.

Either that, or mild-mannered Brad Stevens has done something amazing to piss off a lot of coaches.


They did that in 2015 to stop lebron from winning finals co-mvp. It’s a sham for the voters to conspire like that. I be;ive voting was going to be 4-4-3 win curry getting 3. Curry voters switched to Iggy.
http://www.inktastic.com/ Custom T-Shirts and more

Return to Player Comparisons