'17-'18 POY discussion

[Outside]

Read on Twitter

...wow

Via Marc Stein:



https://nyti.ms/2KNfbJF

It sounds like the coaches submitted a single vote for COY, not a 1-3 or 1-5 type ballot. Maybe part of this is that Casey was the runaway winner with a handful of other guys getting votes, and if they'd had a 1-3 or 1-5 ballot, Stevens would have been second on a lot of ballots and been top 5 on most.

I heard someone -- Zach Lowe? Tom Haberstroh? -- talk about the voting for 2015 finals MVP. Some people made a deal afterward that Curry didn't get any votes, but apparently multiple people who voted for LeBron said that if they'd voted for a Warrior, they would've voted for Curry, but because they only submitted one name, Curry got nothing. Wonder if this is the same type of thing here.

Either that, or mild-mannered Brad Stevens has done something amazing to piss off a lot of coaches.

They did that in 2015 to stop lebron from winning finals co-mvp. It’s a sham for the voters to conspire like that. I be;ive voting was going to be 4-4-3 win curry getting 3. Curry voters switched to Iggy.

I hadn't heard that story before. Interesting. With such a small pool, and with an award that isn't defined (the best player in the finals? the player who did the most to help his team win?), stuff like that is bound to happen.

[Clyde Frazier]

Read on Twitter

...wow

Via Marc Stein:



https://nyti.ms/2KNfbJF

It sounds like the coaches submitted a single vote for COY, not a 1-3 or 1-5 type ballot. Maybe part of this is that Casey was the runaway winner with a handful of other guys getting votes, and if they'd had a 1-3 or 1-5 ballot, Stevens would have been second on a lot of ballots and been top 5 on most.

I heard someone -- Zach Lowe? Tom Haberstroh? -- talk about the voting for 2015 finals MVP. Some people made a deal afterward that Curry didn't get any votes, but apparently multiple people who voted for LeBron said that if they'd voted for a Warrior, they would've voted for Curry, but because they only submitted one name, Curry got nothing. Wonder if this is the same type of thing here.

Either that, or mild-mannered Brad Stevens has done something amazing to piss off a lot of coaches.

They did that in 2015 to stop lebron from winning finals co-mvp. It’s a sham for the voters to conspire like that. I be;ive voting was going to be 4-4-3 win curry getting 3. Curry voters switched to Iggy.

Can you link to a source? This sounds like a conspiracy theory.

[INKtastic]

It sounds like the coaches submitted a single vote for COY, not a 1-3 or 1-5 type ballot. Maybe part of this is that Casey was the runaway winner with a handful of other guys getting votes, and if they'd had a 1-3 or 1-5 ballot, Stevens would have been second on a lot of ballots and been top 5 on most.

I heard someone -- Zach Lowe? Tom Haberstroh? -- talk about the voting for 2015 finals MVP. Some people made a deal afterward that Curry didn't get any votes, but apparently multiple people who voted for LeBron said that if they'd voted for a Warrior, they would've voted for Curry, but because they only submitted one name, Curry got nothing. Wonder if this is the same type of thing here.

Either that, or mild-mannered Brad Stevens has done something amazing to piss off a lot of coaches.

They did that in 2015 to stop lebron from winning finals co-mvp. It’s a sham for the voters to conspire like that. I be;ive voting was going to be 4-4-3 win curry getting 3. Curry voters switched to Iggy.

Can you link to a source? This sounds like a conspiracy theory.

I heard it at the time. I don’t have a source, but there really is no other explainantikn for the post I quoted. Curry voters aren’t goin to switch their vote to stop Curry from winning. There is no need for any to switch if Iggy is going to win anyway. LeBron voters clearly didn’t switch.

[JordansBulls]

some up to date playoff numbers:

LeBron Win Share/48 - .337, 3rd best in league history (since all stats tracked), Harden .229 is 3rd best on his own team.
LeBron 35.5 PER, Harden 27.4
LeBron 34.3 PPG, Harden 28.5.
LeBorn 9.0 APG, Harden 7.4
LeBron has led his team in points and assists all 11 game this playoffs.

Harden played Utah with Gobert. Lebron did not.

Also against Jimmy in round 1 the guy who usually holds Lebron down. Two series Lebron played against him with him guarding him he shot under 40% in one and then 44% in another one.

[MisterHibachi]

Simmons' defense has been very disappointing against the Celtics.

[Dr Positivity]

The Sixers have a lot of potholes to avoid going forward. Bryan Colangelo, Simmons jumpshot, Embiid's health, Bryan Colangelo

[GSP]

Brad not receiving a vote is a complete **** travesty

i thought the coaching fraternity would be above that but no.........whole lotta jealous divas

[Clyde Frazier]

Read on Twitter

Well that settles that... for now

[Doctor MJ]

So 2 rounds in, my thoughts at this point:

I feel like 3 out of the 4 GS/HOU guys are going to be in my top 5 when all is said & done. Harden seems like a lock and remains in the lead for me, the rest still in flux.

LeBron seems like the biggest lock for Top 5 status right now and he has a clear path to the top spot.

Presuming that's 4 of the 5, the 5th seems to me to be Anthony Davis

I doubt anyone else really has a Top 5 shot other than Giannis, but Giannis really only has a shot if the top player disappoint going forward.

Other guys on my mind as seeming noteworthy for honorable mention:

Rudy Gobert - seems an HM lock. Being the best player on a team that upset its way to the 2nd round 2 years in a row doesn't sound like much next to the LeBrons and Durants of the world, but it ain't nothing.

After that I've got 4 guys on my mind:

Jimmy Butler - without injuries he's a clear HM guy at the very least. I've gained so much respect for him this year.

Al Horford - seems like he shouldn't be ahead of the last two, and maybe he won't be, but damn...

Joel Embiid - I knew he and Simmons were young, but my god did they seem like they just weren't ready for primetime.

Victor Oladipo - definitely HM worth, but still deciding where he is next to the other guys. Fighting Cleveland hard sounds great, but I have a hard time buying that Cleveland's 1st round struggles were primarily attributed to the opponent. Take that achievement away from Indiana and they are just a team that was mediocre all-year and then lost in the first round of the East.

So yeah, my top 10 list at the moment:

1. Harden
2. LeBron
3. Davis
4. Paul
5. Durant

HM: Butler, Curry, Giannis, Gobert, Horford

[eminence]

So yeah, my top 10 list at the moment:

1. Harden
2. LeBron
3. Davis
4. Paul
5. Durant

HM: Butler, Curry, Giannis, Gobert, Horford

Agree with a lot of the thoughts here (I'm higher on Oladipo and think Westbrook/Jokic are in that HM group as well), but I'm surprised at the continued exclusion of Draymond. His regular season was obviously down (allstarish level), but it didn't feel meaningfully worse than some others on the list and he's picked it up in the playoffs as much as anyone not named LeBron. Think he was pretty definitively the best player in the Warriors v Pelicans series.

[Doctor MJ]

So yeah, my top 10 list at the moment:

1. Harden
2. LeBron
3. Davis
4. Paul
5. Durant

HM: Butler, Curry, Giannis, Gobert, Horford

Agree with a lot of the thoughts here (I'm higher on Oladipo and think Westbrook/Jokic are in that HM group as well), but I'm surprised at the continued exclusion of Draymond. His regular season was obviously down (allstarish level), but it didn't feel meaningfully worse than some others on the list and he's picked it up in the playoffs as much as anyone not named LeBron. Think he was pretty definitively the best player in the Warriors v Pelicans series.

I find it clarifying for me personally to be a bit looser with my 2nd 5 than my first 5, focusing a bit more unabashedly on accomplishment rather than raw capability.

While I'm notoriously low on Westbrook, I would expect that most see him as a clear cut top 10 player should be given at the very least an HM spot every year. For me as well Westbrook has typically been in that tier, but well, this year Westbrook got the help he asked for and literally got nowhere further with it. I see it as about the most clear cut failed season as you'll ever see from a reigning MVP, and I don't think it helps his legacy in any conceivable way.

Jokic to me is a guy who clearly has Top 10 impact when everything is working in Denver, but we've yet to see that done consistently over an entire season and this is why Denver keeps ending up in the same lottery as the Sacramentos and Phoenixes of the world.

Re: Oladipo. I feel uncomfortable not having him in my 10 man list. He seems like he should be there, but it's a question of giving someone else the boot. I won't be surprised if I end up doing that, but it's tough competition.

Re: Draymond. GS' story is very much still to be determined, but I struggle giving Green the same type of RS pass as I do, say, LeBron. If I end up seeing him as the MVP of the Warriors' post-season and they win the title, he's certainly going to get heavy consideration from me.

[bondom34]

I don't really see what legacy has to.do with a vote for this year only. He wasn't a top 5 guy but HM feels about right for most of the year. Running a 9.7 net rating with George and no Melo would have been a great team. That dropping to 6.7 with Melo isn't ideal.

[dontcalltimeout]

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but worth noting re: 76ers looking outmatched. How much is it just three-point shooters going cold? How much is it Boston making them work more for shots & contesting really well due to length & athleticism?

(edited to include the Celtics shooting as well)

[RSCD3_]

So 2 rounds in, my thoughts at this point:

I feel like 3 out of the 4 GS/HOU guys are going to be in my top 5 when all is said & done. Harden seems like a lock and remains in the lead for me, the rest still in flux.

LeBron seems like the biggest lock for Top 5 status right now and he has a clear path to the top spot.

Presuming that's 4 of the 5, the 5th seems to me to be Anthony Davis

I doubt anyone else really has a Top 5 shot other than Giannis, but Giannis really only has a shot if the top player disappoint going forward.

Other guys on my mind as seeming noteworthy for honorable mention:

Rudy Gobert - seems an HM lock. Being the best player on a team that upset its way to the 2nd round 2 years in a row doesn't sound like much next to the LeBrons and Durants of the world, but it ain't nothing.

After that I've got 4 guys on my mind:

Jimmy Butler - without injuries he's a clear HM guy at the very least. I've gained so much respect for him this year.

Al Horford - seems like he shouldn't be ahead of the last two, and maybe he won't be, but damn...

Joel Embiid - I knew he and Simmons were young, but my god did they seem like they just weren't ready for primetime.

Victor Oladipo - definitely HM worth, but still deciding where he is next to the other guys. Fighting Cleveland hard sounds great, but I have a hard time buying that Cleveland's 1st round struggles were primarily attributed to the opponent. Take that achievement away from Indiana and they are just a team that was mediocre all-year and then lost in the first round of the East.

So yeah, my top 10 list at the moment:

1. Harden
2. LeBron
3. Davis
4. Paul
5. Durant

HM: Butler, Curry, Giannis, Gobert, Horford

A lot of posters here aren't considering durant for top 5 based on the fact that they see him as a guy the boxscore likes more than he is worth and that his defense regressed a lot from last year? Why do you have him over Giannis and what makes you think he's been that good all year?

[HeartBreakKid]

Why do people think Durant's impact is so empty? There is a drop off when Curry doesn't play which is to be expected, but Durant still seems pretty close to being the same player.

[Doctor MJ]

So 2 rounds in, my thoughts at this point:

I feel like 3 out of the 4 GS/HOU guys are going to be in my top 5 when all is said & done. Harden seems like a lock and remains in the lead for me, the rest still in flux.

LeBron seems like the biggest lock for Top 5 status right now and he has a clear path to the top spot.

Presuming that's 4 of the 5, the 5th seems to me to be Anthony Davis

I doubt anyone else really has a Top 5 shot other than Giannis, but Giannis really only has a shot if the top player disappoint going forward.

Other guys on my mind as seeming noteworthy for honorable mention:

Rudy Gobert - seems an HM lock. Being the best player on a team that upset its way to the 2nd round 2 years in a row doesn't sound like much next to the LeBrons and Durants of the world, but it ain't nothing.

After that I've got 4 guys on my mind:

Jimmy Butler - without injuries he's a clear HM guy at the very least. I've gained so much respect for him this year.

Al Horford - seems like he shouldn't be ahead of the last two, and maybe he won't be, but damn...

Joel Embiid - I knew he and Simmons were young, but my god did they seem like they just weren't ready for primetime.

Victor Oladipo - definitely HM worth, but still deciding where he is next to the other guys. Fighting Cleveland hard sounds great, but I have a hard time buying that Cleveland's 1st round struggles were primarily attributed to the opponent. Take that achievement away from Indiana and they are just a team that was mediocre all-year and then lost in the first round of the East.

So yeah, my top 10 list at the moment:

1. Harden
2. LeBron
3. Davis
4. Paul
5. Durant

HM: Butler, Curry, Giannis, Gobert, Horford

A lot of posters here aren't considering durant for top 5 based on the fact that they see him as a guy the boxscore likes more than he is worth and that his defense regressed a lot from last year? Why do you have him over Giannis and what makes you think he's been that good all year?

I think the reality is that Giannis hasn't remotely proven to us that he understands how to make his team "win". He's having lots of impact yet, but the team has stalled where a lot of teams led by young talent tends to stall. It's hard to judge Durant against Giannis because Giannis deserves to be ranked higher based on the regular season, but the moment Durant does his dominant playoff thing he's does things with ease that I Giannis still hasn't proven himself on. Same with LeBron only more so.

To put it another way, the top tier of players in my mind all have some veteran savvy. LeBron, Curry, Durant, Paul, and even at this point I think you have to put Harden there. Davis is the guy who has at least done enough to have a good case over some of those guys even if I still have less faith in him than those guys. And then there's a bunch of younger dudes generally seen as led by Giannis - but Embiid & Simmons are also great examples - who just seem like they need to figure more things out in order to truly lead a team that can dominate strong competition.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't really see what legacy has to.do with a vote for this year only. He wasn't a top 5 guy but HM feels about right for most of the year. Running a 9.7 net rating with George and no Melo would have been a great team. That dropping to 6.7 with Melo isn't ideal.

If a player is capable of carrying a group of kids to 41 wins the NBA, but given a group of legit NBA players still only wins 41 games, then to me he doesn't deserve anything. No MVP, no all-NBA, no all-star, and I wouldn't give him a dime.

This is obviously an extreme example beyond Westbrook or anyone else and hence my take on any real player is more nuanced than that, but it's hard to see it as an accomplishment for Westbrook to lead George & co to a first round loss. The point was to take a step forward, and the fact that they didn't hurts.

To put it another way: Westbrook's candidacy the previous year was a "doing more with less" narrative, and to use that same parlance to describe this season then, he did less with more. It's very hard for me to see that as an accomplishment worth celebrating.

[Doctor MJ]

Why do people think Durant's impact is so empty? There is a drop off when Curry doesn't play which is to be expected, but Durant still seems pretty close to being the same player.

He's fine individually, but this is a team game. If in him getting his numbers he disrupts the flow that makes the Warriors the Warriors, it's hard to celebrate him.

Now as I say that, Durant's in a boat similar to LeBron and Curry where it's hard to really hold much against him if in the end they do great things both individual and team-wise in the playoffs.

[Doctor MJ]

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but worth noting re: 76ers looking outmatched. How much is it just three-point shooters going cold? How much is it Boston making them work more for shots & contesting really well due to length & athleticism?

But why did they go cold?

To me it was clear Boston disrupted Philly's rhythm and Philly was never able to get it back. Now, Boston still had to fight tooth and nail in order to win close games in that series because Philly is so freaking talented, particularly relative to the short-handed Celtics, which should still leave the league scared of what Philly eventually becomes, but to me there's nothing about Philly's struggles in the 2nd round that should be chalked up to luck.

[bondom34]

I don't really see what legacy has to.do with a vote for this year only. He wasn't a top 5 guy but HM feels about right for most of the year. Running a 9.7 net rating with George and no Melo would have been a great team. That dropping to 6.7 with Melo isn't ideal.

If a player is capable of carrying a group of kids to 41 wins the NBA, but given a group of legit NBA players still only wins 41 games, then to me he doesn't deserve anything. No MVP, no all-NBA, no all-star, and I wouldn't give him a dime.

This is obviously an extreme example beyond Westbrook or anyone else and hence my take on any real player is more nuanced than that, but it's hard to see it as an accomplishment for Westbrook to lead George & co to a first round loss. The point was to take a step forward, and the fact that they didn't hurts.

To put it another way: Westbrook's candidacy the previous year was a "doing more with less" narrative, and to use that same parlance to describe this season then, he did less with more. It's very hard for me to see that as an accomplishment worth celebrating.

OKC was a 43 win team by pythag last year. Adding George and losing depth they should have won how much? Especially given they lost a dpoy mid season? If golden state lost its best defender I would expect a drop too. They played well when he was on court. Their rotation issues with the bench were well documented and by far my biggest coaching issue with Donovan. I'm not seeing how Westbrook isn't capable of winning more when he did and the issue was when he was off court.