Retro POY '00-01 (Voting Complete)

[lorak]

Since when averages tell who the better player is?

[Gongxi]

A. Sometimes.

The point is if you're hyping up great games and ignoring averages, that means you're- purposely or not- ignoring the bad games that had to have taken place in order for the averages to be what they are, in light of those great games.

Seewutimsayin?

[NO-KG-AI]

So you're telling me that Kobe didn't score 81 points per game?

[lorak]

A. Sometimes.

The point is if you're hyping up great games and ignoring averages, that means you're- purposely or not- ignoring the bad games that had to have taken place in order for the averages to be what they are, in light of those great games.

Seewutimsayin?

I'm not ignoring bad games. I’m telling what separates Duncan from KG and great games are one of these things. TD also played more games and still was better/comparable to KG in playoffs. Besides, he was better in regular season (MVP and All NBA) so it’s nothing wrong with putting him higher than Garnett.

[ElGee]

What does the SRS look like with the playoffs factored in? This is the first time I've actually looked at that stat, so I'm curious if there is anything available on that.

I think it's a better way to gauge team strength than W-L - don't have to meddle over how much a win means in the East vs. West or whatnot. I don't know how it works factoring in playoffs (wasn't the point). Obviously, looking at their ORtg and DRtg (and just watching them) they were locked in monsters in the postseason. +7.1 in ORtg, -6.6 in Drtg. That's all-time dominance.

[sp6r=underrated]

Semi

Here is an article explaining how SRS work: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=37

It is a concept they took from their football reference website. It tries to take into account strength of schedule.

[Sedale Threatt]

honestly I don't know how Lakers would have two super-dominant players on the team and not be head and shoulder above everybody else.

They were. They won 23 of their last 24 games, by an average margin of more than 13 points per game. They gave the best team in the league the worst four-game ass-kicking in league history until the recent Orlando/Atlanta series. Their only loss came in OT, in which they blew a late five-point lead. Has a team ever finished stronger?

[sp6r=underrated]

I have to agree with Sedale. I normally place great importance on point differential, but in this case I'll discard it. The way they crushed their way through a very difficult PS, makes me convinced they were mailing it in the RS. Shaq being their best player was a large part of why their defense picked up so much in the final two weeks. He just didn't try on the defensive end until the PO approached. Very few teams in NBA history have been led by a guy who was so indifferent to the RS on the defensive end as Shaq.

This is one of the very few exceptions I make to my emphasis on point differential.

[Gongxi]

A. Sometimes.

The point is if you're hyping up great games and ignoring averages, that means you're- purposely or not- ignoring the bad games that had to have taken place in order for the averages to be what they are, in light of those great games.

Seewutimsayin?

I'm not ignoring bad games. I’m telling what separates Duncan from KG and great games are one of these things. TD also played more games and still was better/comparable to KG in playoffs. Besides, he was better in regular season (MVP and All NBA) so it’s nothing wrong with putting him higher than Garnett.

The point is if you're saying Duncan had more great games, and their averages are similar, that means he also had more bad games.

[Doctor MJ]

"Doctor MJ," how do the top 2 players in the league end up on the 6th ranked SRS team? The Spurs series was, after all, a mere 4 games...

re: Ray Ray - I actually think he's been more appreciated as the years have gone by. Wasn't he sort of seen in the Allan Houston camp of one-dimensional players back then? That was his only all-nba team other than 2005...

I'm starting to question if you really are this "Doctor MJ."

-Well obviously, I'm not factoring in RS SRS in. This gets into philosophy more than anything else since I don't thing we actually disagree that much on the details. It's related to why Shaq was my #1 in '02. If somebody pulls something off for the duration of the playoffs on the way to the ring, and there's stuff from other seasons indicating dominance, I tend to overlook regular season issues.

-Re: Ray Ray. Yeah, my recollection was that this playoffs is what made clear that Allen was the star and the Big Dog was not a big dog.

-You guys are hilarious with this "Doctor MJ" thing. I mean...as if I'd reveal my true identity when there could be spies about!

[Silver Bullet]

Today's game is case in point why box score stats can be totally useless - The Cavs team is about 10 times worse when Jamison is on the floor instead of Varejao - don't know if that is backed up by plus minus -

[semi-sentient]

Oh, I've seen times where Vujacic led the team in +/- despite being (by far) the worst player on the floor for the Lakers. Same with Fisher.

[drza]

Today's game is case in point why box score stats can be totally useless - The Cavs team is about 10 times worse when Jamison is on the floor instead of Varejao - don't know if that is backed up by plus minus -

For most of the season Varejao was among the leaders in the NBA in +/-, so yeah, it supports your point.

[Gongxi]

I've been convinced that Garnett was not too far off of Duncan, but I still have him behind. Kobe drops down to fit Garnett, which was difficult, but I'm justifying though Kobe missing a sizable amount of regular season games. Kidd drops down to 5 and the McGrady/Carter debate becomes moot.

DOCTOR MJ, PLEASE DO NOT COUNT THIS VOTE, I AM EDITING MY ORIGINAL POST!!

My new 00-01 top 5 is:

1- Shaq
2- Duncan
3- Garnett
4- Kobe
5- Kidd

DOCTOR MJ, PLEASE DO NOT COUNT THIS VOTE, I AM EDITING MY ORIGINAL POST!!

[NO-KG-AI]

Shaq is the number 1 by a fair enough margin.

KG and Duncan are pretty close to me, Duncan gets the nod over KG, because I don't like to give "what if nods" when players are statistically this close to each other.

Kobe and Iverson are pretty close to me IMO, but I can't take my self seriously if I say something like "AI would surely be as efficient as Kobe if Shaq were taking pressure off of him", because it's a big leap of faith.

AI has shown he can play much more efficient ball on teams with another offensive force, and some shooters, but Kobe actually did it, and had a fantastic postseason as well. I think AI's is underrated because people get so caught up in the FG%, but Kobe was hoisting the trophy up.

1- Shaq
2- Duncan
3- KG
4- Kobe
5- Iverson

Honorable mention to Jason Kidd, Vince Carter and Tracy.

[Doctor MJ]

DOCTOR MJ, PLEASE DO NOT COUNT THIS VOTE, I AM EDITING MY ORIGINAL POST!!

Thanks Gongxi, I appreciate you making it clear.

[bastillon]

honestly I don't know how Lakers would have two super-dominant players on the team and not be head and shoulder above everybody else.

They were. They won 23 of their last 24 games, by an average margin of more than 13 points per game. They gave the best team in the league the worst four-game ass-kicking in league history until the recent Orlando/Atlanta series. Their only loss came in OT, in which they blew a late five-point lead. Has a team ever finished stronger?

so what about the other part of the season ? do you just dismiss it ? I'll have to think about it more but I think you convinced me after all. it's playoffs that matter so...

[ronnymac2]

I think I've been convinced that Kevin Garnett was a top 5 player this year.

That makes McGrady vs. Carter useless for me, but I still want to look at that comparison.

Kidd, Payton, Malone, Allen, and Webber will get an honorable mention. I think people are being a bit hard on C-Web this year. His scoring sucked against LA, but......usually, defending PF's was our weakness. A.C. Green and Samaki Walker were not that good, and Robert Horry's specialty was his help and team defense (and he couldn't defend the great PF's for long stretches). Enter Horace Grant, who was still reliable in 01. Now we had a PF tandem that could frustrate the dominant PF's and give them different types of defenses. Our defense was insane in that playoff run, too.

I actually think Tim played well in that 01 WCF. His team was just way overmatched. I wouldn't call it a failure on Duncan's part per se. He's my number two player.

Kobe, Iverson, and Garnett will likely round out my top five in some order. Not sure yet.

[Sedale Threatt]

honestly I don't know how Lakers would have two super-dominant players on the team and not be head and shoulder above everybody else.

They were. They won 23 of their last 24 games, by an average margin of more than 13 points per game. They gave the best team in the league the worst four-game ass-kicking in league history until the recent Orlando/Atlanta series. Their only loss came in OT, in which they blew a late five-point lead. Has a team ever finished stronger?

so what about the other part of the season ? do you just dismiss it ? I'll have to think about it more but I think you convinced me after all. it's playoffs that matter so...

I don't entirely dismiss it, nor do I respect the fact they cruised as much as they obviously did.

But I think it's pretty clear this team had another gear that put them on a level very, very few teams can claim to have reached.

And even without the trail of carnage they wrought in the playoffs, they were only two games away from the league's best record.

[Sedale Threatt]

SEMI!!!

I am in Austin through Saturday night, on assignment. I have your jersey, and I'd like to drop it off if possible. Might not be able to do it tonight, but maybe you can meet me Sat. after I'm done and I can give it to you.

The thing is -- I saved your number wrong on my phone, so I obviously can't call/text you. If you have mine, give me a ring. If not, we can figure something out.