Retro POY '95-96 (Voting Complete)

[sp6r=underrated]

I really don't think Pippen is an awful or biased choice at 5th in 1996. The bulls really were a historic team that year, and they didn't get there just because of Jordan. Pippen's defensive impact was elite, and with his all around game I could see someone feeling like he was a worthy of top 5.

Having him at 5th, is no worse than having Kobe at 3 in 2002 IMO.

[Optimism Prime]

I really don't think Pippen is an awful or biased choice at 5th in 1996. The bulls really were a historic team that year, and they didn't get there just because of Jordan. Pippen's defensive impact was elite, and with his all around game I could see someone feeling like he was a worthy of top 5.

Having him at 5th, is no worse than having Kobe at 3 in 2002 IMO.

What about Pippen at 3?

[sp6r=underrated]

I really don't think Pippen is an awful or biased choice at 5th in 1996. The bulls really were a historic team that year, and they didn't get there just because of Jordan. Pippen's defensive impact was elite, and with his all around game I could see someone feeling like he was a worthy of top 5.

Having him at 5th, is no worse than having Kobe at 3 in 2002 IMO.

What about Pippen at 3?

NM, I thought he gave him a 5th place vote.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Pippen was anemic in the playoffs. I really don't see him in the Top 5.

Think about this. Pippen played 18 games in the PS.

4 times he shots less than 30%
11 times he shot less than 40%

He shot 50% or better only 3 times. I just don't see him as a Top 5 guy at all.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/1996/

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Robinson
4. Penny
5. Payton

I'm swayed to put Malone above Robinson based on the playoff performance. Robinson remains ahead of Olajuwon.

Among the perimeter guys, Anfernee gets the nod, then GP, then Pippen. I'm so impressed with Penny, and I do think it's as other said: If the Magic do worse without Shaq, Shaq doesn't go rancid. The funny thing is that Penny's not a full volume scorer, so this really wasn't Shaq getting frustrated with his role, it was just attention.

I look at Payton and Pippen, and I'm just a tad more impressed with Payton at his peak. I'm a little torn on this though because given the choice between the two for my team I pick Pippen based on his ability to not act like a child if he has to sacrifice his game.

Honorable Mention:

Hakeem - Feels a little odd having multiple spots between Robinson and Olajuwon. I can totally understand people putting him up at #4.

Pippen

Hill

Kemp - I was tempted to put Barkley here. In the end though, Phoenix just wasn't working right this year and I think part of that is on Charles. Kemp was playing great ball clearly contributing strongly to a great team.

Stockton - Reluctant to mention him. Seems like someone else should be more deserving, but continued great play on a very successful team, and I'm not going to penalize him that much for the injury.

[Silver Bullet]

Pippen was anemic in the playoffs. I really don't see him in the Top 5.

Think about this. Pippen played 18 games in the PS.

4 times he shots less than 30%
11 times he shot less than 40%

He shot 50% or better only 3 times. I just don't see him as a Top 5 guy at all.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/1996/

I don't understand why everybody keeps analyzing Pippen offensively only -

Most of you think the Bulls were an all time great defensive team -

There were only three guys that were All NBA First and All Defensive First this year - Robinson, Jordan and Pippen.

I mean, let's compare him to Payton - Pippen is better statistically, despite the fact that Payton had the ball probably twice as much, was a 2nd option compared to Paytons first... They are at worst a wash defensively...
Statistically, they are a wash in the playoffs -

I mean, what gives ?

Why is it such a bad choice to have Pippen ahead of GP -

This was a team that lost only 10 games all year - I mean, do you guys realize how ridiculous that is.... Most teams lose that many games in a month.

[Dr Positivity]

My vote

1. Michael Jordan
2. Karl Malone
3. David Robinson
4. Gary Payton
5. Hakeem

After mulling it over and reading some posts I decided to give Malone the 2 spot, mainly due to his superior work in the playoffs, slightly outweighing DRob's better RS. I like Drob over Hakeem because I feel the former was better defensively at this point. Originally I had Hakeem firmly in 3rd/4th position but after mulling it over, Payton and Penny had REALLY good years. I put Payton 4th. 64 win team, DPOY, made the Finals and pushed the GOAT team to 6. I'm not sure Hakeem had much more defensive impact than Payton at this point in their careers... I like Payton overall here. So last spot Hakeem and Penny. As impressive as Penny was I'll give it to Hakeem as a 27/11/3 C. I can't shake that Penny was not the best player on his team.

[Silver Bullet]

Did NO-KG-AI quit ?

[Gongxi]

I don't understand why everybody keeps analyzing Pippen offensively only -

Most of you think the Bulls were an all time great defensive team

But you don't. So I'd have to assume you think their All-D selections weren't worthy. Which makes me wonder why you're propping your argument up on it.

Wait wait, I forgot that I knew why. Nevermind.

[Silver Bullet]

I don't understand why everybody keeps analyzing Pippen offensively only -

Most of you think the Bulls were an all time great defensive team

But you don't. So I'd have to assume you think their All-D selections weren't worthy. Which makes me wonder why you're propping your argument up on it.

Wait wait, I forgot that I knew why. Nevermind.

I don't think they're near the top - because I don't think a Phil Jackson team can ever be one or was one.
Put LB in charge and they'd make the 08 Celtics look like the Phoenix Suns.

[ElGee]

I guess it is time to post my ballot.

1. Jordan: easy choice

I thought this would be an easy choice but the great posts of Kaima, who has been great this thread, gives me doubt. Malone was the better PS performer that year than Robinson as Kaima analysis has shown.

I have voted before for guys who got outplayed in an individual match-up, on the basis of RS play if I felt their RS was of a significantly higher quality. I think Robinson RS really was significantly better, and I don't feel Malone's PS was of a high enough quality to overcome it. I am voting for Robinson but I don't have much confidence in my vote. Nice posting Kaima.

2. Robinson
3. Malone

4. Penny: His play keeping the Magic going early in the season really was epic. It is a shame the NBA lost this great superstar, who was HOF quality, to injuries. I do disagree with Ronnymac's point about him potentially having more impact as a swingman. I know Penny hated playing the point but he was such a match-up problem for other teams, that I think it was better for him to play that position.

5. Kemp: Minority choice, but his impact was extremely close to the guys in contention for top 5, and he picked it up in the PS and ran wild on elite bigs at times.

I don't think Kemp at 5 is too crazy (although he's not in my final 7) because he had some big post-season (and FInals) moments and I think he's probably a top 10 player in 1996. But one of the biggest things that throws me off is the evidence that his rebounding numbers aren't telling an accurate story about his rebounding. His teams don't rebound well (check out the post about individual rebounding in the stats forum) and it seems his % comes from taking boards from his own team, in essence.

Watch some of his games in the Finals. He grabs a dozen boards but probably misses 5 box outs. I know those are against Rodman, but I think it was a pattern for him throughout his career. That, and some of the bizarre decision making, lapses and foul issues devalue him as a player for me. Otherwise, he's a beast and I'm actually surprised he didn't get more consideration.

[Optimism Prime]

I don't understand why everybody keeps analyzing Pippen offensively only -

Most of you think the Bulls were an all time great defensive team

But you don't. So I'd have to assume you think their All-D selections weren't worthy. Which makes me wonder why you're propping your argument up on it.

Wait wait, I forgot that I knew why. Nevermind.

I don't think they're near the top - because I don't think a Phil Jackson team can ever be one or was one.
Put LB in charge and they'd make the 08 Celtics look like the Phoenix Suns.

All they did was lead the league in DRTG (101.8) and place second in Points against (92.9/game)... while having the best offense (115.2/105.2) for a 12.3 differential per game. So unlike the Suns, they're not exerting themselves on offense while slacking on D--they're doing both at the highest level.

How is that not a great defensive team?

[An Unbiased Fan]

Pippen was anemic in the playoffs. I really don't see him in the Top 5.

Think about this. Pippen played 18 games in the PS.

4 times he shots less than 30%
11 times he shot less than 40%

He shot 50% or better only 3 times. I just don't see him as a Top 5 guy at all.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/1996/

I don't understand why everybody keeps analyzing Pippen offensively only -

Most of you think the Bulls were an all time great defensive team -

There were only three guys that were All NBA First and All Defensive First this year - Robinson, Jordan and Pippen.

I mean, let's compare him to Payton - Pippen is better statistically, despite the fact that Payton had the ball probably twice as much, was a 2nd option compared to Paytons first... They are at worst a wash defensively...
Statistically, they are a wash in the playoffs -

I mean, what gives ?

Why is it such a bad choice to have Pippen ahead of GP -

This was a team that lost only 10 games all year - I mean, do you guys realize how ridiculous that is.... Most teams lose that many games in a month.

Pippen had a very good RS, but so did Payton. GP was All-NBA 2nd team, but that had a lot to do with MJ(#1) & Penny(#3), playing guard. I would also say that GP was the better leader, and that they were even statistically in the RS.

GP - 19.3/4.2/7.5, with 2.9 spg, 48.4% FG/55.4% TS
SP - 19.4/6.4/5.9 with 46.3% FG/55.1% TS

The problem for Pippen is his erractic PS play offensively. Both he & GP brought the defense, but Pip forgot the offense. GP was 48.5% FG & 41% 3pt, and still dishing out 6.8 apg.

[Silver Bullet]

But you don't. So I'd have to assume you think their All-D selections weren't worthy. Which makes me wonder why you're propping your argument up on it.

Wait wait, I forgot that I knew why. Nevermind.

I don't think they're near the top - because I don't think a Phil Jackson team can ever be one or was one.
Put LB in charge and they'd make the 08 Celtics look like the Phoenix Suns.

All they did was lead the league in DRTG (101.8) and place second in Points against (92.9/game)... while having the best offense (115.2/105.2) for a 12.3 differential per game. So unlike the Suns, they're not exerting themselves on offense while slacking on D--they're doing both at the highest level.

How is that not a great defensive team?

I'm saying they're not great in an All-Time context. In the bubble of that season, they might very well have been the best.... and it's impossible not to be great when you have a core of 3 of the greatest defensive players of all time.

PS. DRTG is one of the worst stats in my opinion to try and judge a teams defensive prowess by -

[sp6r=underrated]

Watch some of his games in the Finals. He grabs a dozen boards but probably misses 5 box outs. I know those are against Rodman, but I think it was a pattern for him throughout his career. That, and some of the bizarre decision making, lapses and foul issues devalue him as a player for me. Otherwise, he's a beast and I'm actually surprised he didn't get more consideration.

Thanks for pointing this out to me, next time I get the chance to watch some of his games I'll look for this.

[Optimism Prime]

I don't think they're near the top - because I don't think a Phil Jackson team can ever be one or was one.
Put LB in charge and they'd make the 08 Celtics look like the Phoenix Suns.

All they did was lead the league in DRTG (101.8) and place second in Points against (92.9/game)... while having the best offense (115.2/105.2) for a 12.3 differential per game. So unlike the Suns, they're not exerting themselves on offense while slacking on D--they're doing both at the highest level.

How is that not a great defensive team?

I'm saying they're not great in an All-Time context. In the bubble of that season, they might very well have been the best.... and it's impossible not to be great when you have a core of 3 of the greatest defensive players of all time.

PS. DRTG is one of the worst stats in my opinion to try and judge a teams defensive prowess by -

Doesn't matter if they're THE three greatest defensive players of all time, they're led by Phil Jackson so they can't be a great defensive team, right. That's how your argument sounded.

[Silver Bullet]

All they did was lead the league in DRTG (101.8) and place second in Points against (92.9/game)... while having the best offense (115.2/105.2) for a 12.3 differential per game. So unlike the Suns, they're not exerting themselves on offense while slacking on D--they're doing both at the highest level.

How is that not a great defensive team?

I'm saying they're not great in an All-Time context. In the bubble of that season, they might very well have been the best.... and it's impossible not to be great when you have a core of 3 of the greatest defensive players of all time.

PS. DRTG is one of the worst stats in my opinion to try and judge a teams defensive prowess by -

Doesn't matter if they're THE three greatest defensive players of all time, they're led by Phil Jackson so they can't be a great defensive team, right. That's how your argument sounded.

Well that's not my argument for why they're not the greatest defensive team of all time - that's my explanation for it.

You can take the 5 greatest defensive players of all time and put it on a D'Antoni coached team and it's not going to be a great defensive team. I mean, we've seen this with Detroit and Flip right ?

Coaching has a lot more to do with defensive prowess than personnel - I mean look at Mike Brown in Cleveland, he was able to turn a roster filled with defensive pedestrians into a really nice defensive outfit.

I'm not sure why we're discussing this, other than the fact that Pippen, Jordan and Rodman had a lot to do with the Bulls defensive prowess. How great they were defensively is not a factor - because within the realms of this season, they were a great defensive team.

[ElGee]

I have Penny and Pippen neck and neck. I watched the two available games on youtube betwen Orlando and Chicago (as well as the 20 minute highlight cuts of the other two games) to help me figure this out. I think both are ahead of Gary Payton, and I'm fairly comfortable with that. Olajuwon is also fairly close to Penny and Pip, which muddles up the entire 4-6 ranking process.

Anyway, Pippen and Penny went head to head in the ECF. Before that, and in general, I thought Pippen's defense was at its absolute apex in 1996. It was a clinic and he should have won DPOY over Gary Payton. Well, Robinson should have won over both of them, but the voters were in a non-traditional mood that year. I digress.

Let's go back to God Points so my thought process will be a little clearer. I think David Robinson's defense - what he does 1 on 1, help, rebounding, forcing turnovers etc -- gets him about 8+ God Points. 94-97 Pippen is about as close as a non-big can get to challenging this. I'm giving him 7 God Points when we add up his defensive contributions and effect. Payton probably has 5-6 (astounding for a PG). Penny, who was actually a slightly better defensive player than one might think (good hands, took some charges) is probably slightly above average on that side. Let's give him 2 God Points on defense.

Offensively, Penny is really elite. Not quite Jordan-level, but his play that year was fantastic on offense. He's demanding a lot more defensive pressure than players like Pippen and Payton and attacking defenses more (drawing more fouls, more trips to the line). I ballpark Penny's offensive God Points at ~14 and Pippen's at about 10. This makes them razor close.

In G1, Hardaway dropped 38 on the Bulls. But only 8 of those came against Pippen (I counted Penny going 4-7 in 1v1 situations vs. Pippen), plus a foul (Penny missed the And-1). This tells me Pippen's defense was quite ridiculous, and so was Hardaway's offense. Chicago was switching the screening action a little too much, and Penny was abusing players he was matched up against. Dude hit a halfcourt shot at the buzzer to end the first half with two guys on him. The other highlight of that game? Greg Gumbel calling Longley "Lucley." I think we should combine more first and last names anyway - "hey, what a play by Scippen!"

Penny backdoored Pip once for a dunk. They isolated him in the post and he scored on a ridiculous spin move. Pippen harassed him into a turnover while Penny was trying to feed the post. Later, Penny posted up again and killed him with the same spin move. The third time, he spun in the post, scored and was fouled. When Pippen left the game, Hardaway went right to work against Harper or Jordan. All of his other points and breakdowns came against other defenders.

In G2, Pippen was a huge part of the 18 point (?) comeback, starting with his defense. His shot was off in those few weeks, as evidenced by shaky freaky throw shooting. (Could anyone shoot FT's in the 1996 playoffs?) At least on missed free throws he drew a foul! G2 Pip finished with 17-10-9 3 steals, a number of big defensive plays, just 2-6 from the line and only 2 turnovers. Again, turnovers are much worse than misses, but if we shift 3 of those misses to the turnover line, suddenly we've got a game where Pip was 7-16 (a little below average) and looking at a near triple double and no one is complaining about his shooting efficiency. So, let's not fall into the trap of looking at his TS% and assuming he played poorly – he didn't.

G3 was a gem from Pippen where he was clearly the best player on the floor. Making a number of big plays, big shots down the stretch and finishing with 27-6-7 2 steals, a block (to save a layup) and a strip (to save a layup) that Orlando recovered. He played good D on Penny -- with better results than in G1 -- and was a huge player in holding Orlando to 67 points.

G4 again he has bad TS numbers, but he only took 11 shot attempts because Michael absolutely had it rolling (15-23). Pip did create as usual and provided the usual defense. A classic Pippen game of 12-5-8 with 2 steals and 2 turnovers. If one didn't watch the series, they might fixate on TS% (50.8% on 18.5 ppg) and think he was terrible, when he reality he had a really good series.

With someone like Reggie Miller or Glen Rice, TS% is probably a good reflection of their contribution to the game. With Pippen, he's providing so much with his defense and offensive creation/facilitation (typically constants) that even his bad offensive games are average overall games (see: 1998 ECF, G1).

Pippen's defense in the 96 playoffs was borderline epic. He led the NBA in Drtg as a perimeter player, posting a 96. (Remember, this is just a ballpark stat. But I don't think I've ever seen that.) For context, the team Drtg was 99.4; Rodman had a 97, Harper a 99, Jordan 101.

So what were the final results of his defensive efforts against Penny? Orlando's offense averaged 0.99 points per possession, down from the regular season average of ~1.14 pts/possession.

Penny in the last 3 games averaged 21.3 ppg 4.0 rpg 4.7 apg 46.8 TS% 3.0 TO's.

Total Series numbers
Pippen 18.5 ppg 7.3 rpg 7.0 apg 50.8 TS% 2.0 spg 2.3 TO's
Penny 25.5 ppg 3.8 rpg 4.3 apg 55.2 TS% 1.0 spg 3.3 TO's

--
Im with Kaima on David Robinson. I will try and add a follow up post on him, as I think this season challenges how one views him in general as a basketball player. Extremely interesting case.

[ElGee]

PS. DRTG is one of the worst stats in my opinion to try and judge a teams defensive prowess by -

Why?

[Optimism Prime]

PS. DRTG is one of the worst stats in my opinion to try and judge a teams defensive prowess by -

Why?

If you already know why - then there's no point is there.