All-Time Fantasy League (2014) - Playoffs: THUNDERDAN9 WINS

[john248]

i volunteered to judge. i will be ripping these remaining teams up! sorta. wish i could. bwahahahha

[MisterHibachi]

whitehops, Quotatious, john248 and myself added as judges in this round.

[MisterHibachi]

Melo on offense tonight is how I envisioned him playing when I drafted him

[john248]

This has slowed down too much. No write ups after a few days? LOL

[Texas Chuck]

I guess this has died. I havent judged any matchups this round because none of the 4 seem ready. Make sure someone gives me a heads up if you guys plan on finishing this.

[MisterHibachi]

I guess this has died. I havent judged any matchups this round because none of the 4 seem ready. Make sure someone gives me a heads up if you guys plan on finishing this.

The only match up where both guys have given their write up is ardee and O_6. I was waiting for a little more discussion before my vote, but that seems to have died.

I was hoping to finish this. I hope the guys who haven't written up yet do so soon, the threads have been up for a about a week..

[Owly]

Peak Hakeem really did give you everything. Most portable centre I would say and one of the most dominant. What were his weaknesses at his peak?

Some takes on nitpicking the Dream

My one historical nitpick: you could argue that Hakeem’s prime (1992–95) worked so well because he didn’t play with another transcendent guy. Hakeem was something of a ball stopper: he caught the entry pass, thought about it, checked the defense, thought about it some more, made sure he wasn’t getting double-teamed, tried to get a feel for which way his defender was leaning, then picked an In-N-Out Burger move to exploit the situation. As weird as this sounds, he was better off playing with a band of three-point shooters and quality role players; he didn’t need help from a second scorer like Dominique or Kobe, nor did he need an elite point guard to keep hooking him up the way Stockton helped Malone. He just needed some dudes to spread the floor and one other rebounder. For a salary cap era that hadn’t even really kicked in yet, Hakeem became the ideal franchise player: a guaranteed 44–49 wins even when flanked by mediocrity, and if you upgraded his supporting cast from crap to decent, you could beat anyone in a playoff series as long as Dream was inspired. So he was like Schwarzenegger or Stallone at their peaks—you were having a big opening weekend with Dream regardless of the script or the rest of the cast—and if you had to pick any franchise center to carry a crappy team for a few years, you would have picked Dream over anyone but Kareem. That quality separated him from every nineties contemporary except Jordan; he really was a franchise player. On the other hand, I’m not convinced Dream could have tailored his game to an up-tempo team like the Showtime Lakers, or even a brilliant half-court passing team like the ’86 Celtics. Playing with the likes of Kenny Smith, Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Mario Elie, Otis Thorpe and aging Clyde Drexler worked perfectly, even if it didn’t totally make sense why.

I don't love Simmons but this point (if you agree with it) raises issues with his portability and so is fairly relevant to the discussion.

... but he reaches and gambles too much.
[not a real criticism but an implied semi-hole in his game which comes up in later editions too] Olajuwon ... figures to add another move or two (say, more penetrating drives off the dribble) to his already dazzling arsenal

In years past Hakeem often felt he had to do it all alone...there were times when Olajuwon lapsed into his old pattern as Houston was an erratic shooting team and he felt his turnaround in the blocks was a more reliable weapon.
He was a lousy 71.6% from the stripe
[criticism of previous years seemingly including ‘93] Another nuance for the better last year was Olajuwon’s improved defense on his own man ... Of course, he’s always been a major-league shot blocker—one of the greatest of all time (his 200–plus blocks in 10 consecutive seasons is a record)—but he’s typically been more concerned with shot-swatting from the weakside than doing the dirty work that is post defense... In 1993-94, Olajuwon was up to the challenge of stopping his man individually

But when he’s facing the basket, there’s one chink in his armour. He rarely drives... Thus our minor “solution:” Crowd him on the perimeter, he should never get an open jumper
Despite being an excellent defensive rebounder, doesn’t offer much on the offensive glass.
[defensive critique much the same as the previous years talking about how he now does a better job on his own man]

In the “grades AAA, AA, A, B, C or D and + or – s), Those grades B or below: Graded relative to the norm at that position
The Basketball Pro Bible 1993-94 Edition (written after ’93 season): FT Shooting B, Ball Handling B
1994-95 Edition (after ’94 season): FT Shooting C, Offensive Rebounding C
1995-96 Edition (after ’95 season): FT Shooting B, Offensive Rebounding D
Note: Offensive rebounding (a low grade in the last two years) wasn’t a category in the first year (though he was a bit better that year).

Of the offensive criticism, criticizing free throws (“a lousy 71.6% from the stripe”) seems a bit harsh. For a big/center I think 70% is the bar, a little over that (as Hakeem was at this time) is okay, not great but okay. The offensive rebounding is a legitimate criticism (at least for peak Hakeem, he had been better earlier).
Leaders in offensive rebounding percentage for those years (400 minute min to get rid of total flukes who barely played)
’93: 42nd in ORB% http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tats::none
’94: 91st in ORB% http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tats::none
’95: 126th http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tats::none

Despite all the flash and hype, he was not particularly efficient as a scorer (.560-565ts% in his peak, .550 career which is almost the same level that Ray-Ban Sematra was ripping Wilt for playing at in the early 60s)

This is legitimate.
I took ’95 as a sample (feel free to do the other years, they may be better or worse).
Hakeem shot .563 ts%, the league shot 0.542849726. So around 2 “percent” (ts% not really a percentage, just half of points per possession) above league average. Decent on high usage, but not spectacular. If taken in conjunction with the Simmons criticism (ball dominance) you could make a case that without the right teammates (shooters), offensively Olajuwon is a higher end version of Iverson (or at the lower end of the spectrum Jerry Stackhouse), he’ll drag your offense towards the middle (in Olajuwon’s case the upper middle) with high usage at a middling efficiency.

The only other criticism I can think of isn’t to do with his game per se but relative to the hype around it. That would be that he wasn’t ever the clear cut best player, or best center. After the fact (of the two titles) it’s easy for Simmons and others to call him the “alpha dog” of the Jordan absent era and perhaps get hyperbolic about his performances versus the elite centers. The arguments here would be in the ’95 finals Shaq did well versus O’Neal (off the top of my head Shaq probably had a slight by the numbers edge and someone on RealGM watched the games and their analysis suggested Shaq had the upper hand head to head, found it viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1242882); that Olajuwon didn’t typically dominate elite centers in head to heads (you might from that argue that the playoff dominance versus Robinson and Ewing was a small sample, with circumstance and coaching and luck playing a role; though against that supporters could note that Olajuwon is one of few performers whose performance significantly and consistently rose in the playoffs). Certainly I’ve heard that last argument ventured with regard to his matchups against Robinson (a look at Bkb-Ref head-to-head finder suggests you couldn’t make that argument with Ewing); to look at it fairly in general you’d have to look at what would be a fair sample (i.e. to each participant in terms of peaks, whether there’s a sufficient sample etc). Anyway this last bit is just a general potential area of criticism, but as I said not really of his game, and not necessarily of his peak either, so consider this somewhat of a tanget.

[therealbig3]

^That's really good stuff, nice post, and it's probably the reason why Hakeem probably slips a little bit in an all-time sense compared to where his peak probably ranks.

But at his peak, I can't really get on him too harshly with regards to his ball-stopping or tendency to chuck, because as Bill Simmons noted, he was at his best with a bevy of role players who could shoot 3s, but it also means that he did have to take a lot of the offensive burden and as a result make some ill-advised decisions at times. It's a lot like what Melo's going through right now. I also don't doubt his ability to play with a high-level wing like a Kobe or Wade either, because Drexler was still a very effective player and they meshed pretty well. Similarly, because Hakeem wouldn't have had to carry the offensive load as much with a Kobe or Wade, he probably doesn't ball-stop or take ill-advised shots as much. Not to mention the easy baskets that their dribble penetration could provide, similar to what Shaq benefitted from.

Defensively, I know that he did gamble a bit, but he could afford to. I think big men that get a lot of blocks and steals like Hakeem, but also guys like Robinson and Garnett, do gamble a lot, and Hakeem did seem to commit a lot of fouls, but A. he picked his spots pretty well, and B. he was unlike most players in the sense that his ability to recover was incredible, and so even if he mistimed it and went for that block or steal and missed, he was able to recover and get back into defensive position. He was also a guy who generated a lot of his steals not only by gambling and jumping passing lanes, but also by pick-pocketing his man...even guards at times.

As you said, those are nit-picks that could have been more legitimate criticisms at different times during his career, but nothing I really have an issue with at his peak. At his peak, he did develop into a solid passing big man, and in the playoffs, the 95 Rockets had a monstrous offense with Hakeem anchoring it, and that wouldn't have happened if he was ball-stopping or chucking to a degree worth mentioning.

[therealbig3]

One nit-pick that I would add about Hakeem though: he fell in love with the turnaround jumper too much, and didn't attack the basket enough. His FT rate is really quite low for an otherwise excellent offensive big man.

His FT rate during his best 4-year stretch (93-96) was .347.

Compare that to Tim Duncan (00-03): .466

Kevin Garnett (03-06): .355

One of KG's biggest criticisms was that he took too many jumpers and didn't generate enough FTAs...but he was actually better at drawing FTs than Hakeem. To me, that's the main reason why Hakeem's TS% wasn't really as high as you would expect from a guy that skilled. Still quite good from an efficiency perspective, but he could have been better if he didn't take so many turnaround jumpers.

And his FTr actually goes way down in the playoffs during that time. But his scoring efficiency still goes up, because he's shooting a better percentage from the field, despite tougher defensive circumstances, so once again, it's hard to really go in on him for that.

[john248]

I guess this has died. I havent judged any matchups this round because none of the 4 seem ready. Make sure someone gives me a heads up if you guys plan on finishing this.

It seems more people were interested in drafting than putting up a strategy. Whether that's due to people losing interest, being busy, or simply not knowing how to come up with a strategy...

[MisterWestside]

At his peak, he did develop into a solid passing big man, and in the playoffs, the 95 Rockets had a monstrous offense with Hakeem anchoring it, and that wouldn't have happened if he was ball-stopping or chucking to a degree worth mentioning.

Except he did do both. In the playoffs, he used more of his teams plays than anyone else in his time except for Jordan. The offense worked because he was fitted with players that got out of his way on offense, with respect to floor spacing and use of possessions. The Rockets supporting cast was the ideal complement to Hakeem's talents. The guy was a shot-creator in his prime, though (at least given the roster that he worked with), and wasn't the most efficient player out there.

However, with a more talented offensive roster, he'd play more off-ball and become more efficient.

[Quotatious]

So, it appears that ThunderDan9 vs 0_6 and Bruh Man vs Notanoob are the conference finals, right?

[Notanoob]

Yep! Can't wait to get this going, although I hope everyone shows up to play/judge this round.

[MisterHibachi]

Threads are up:

Bruh Man vs Notanoob: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1306994

ThunderDan9 vs O_6: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1306996

[MisterHibachi]

Judging these will be so hard.

[O_6]

Pick #2: Notanoob
Pick #6: ThunderDan9
Pick #11: Bruh Man
Pick #14: O_6

Avg. 1st rd Pick: 8.25

I really like the fact that this Final Four has teams with picks all over the place and an average selection of 8th among 16 teams.

I think this means that the ABBBABABAB style draft that we decided on was a very good decision. A pure snake would've been way too advantageous for the team with the earlier selections in round 1, but we also had an ABBBB... suggestion that probably would've proven to be too advantageous for the team with the later selections in round 1. I think what we decided on was the correct choice.

[MisterHibachi]

I agree. The draft format was perfectly fair I would say.

[SideshowBob]

Sorry I haven't been able to participate in the last couple of rounds. Got quite busy in the last week (and the coming week), but I'm on board for the Conf. Finals and the Finals.

[ThaRegul8r]

Of the offensive criticism, criticizing free throws (“a lousy 71.6% from the stripe”) seems a bit harsh.

One must always consider the context.

The guy doing the evaluating was Rick Barry.

One of the greatest free throw shooters in NBA history.

A guy who never shot less than 86% in any given season and shot 90% for his career.

From his point of view, yes, 71.6% is lousy.

[Owly]

Of the offensive criticism, criticizing free throws (“a lousy 71.6% from the stripe”) seems a bit harsh.

One must always consider the context.

The guy doing the evaluating was Rick Barry.

One of the greatest free throw shooters in NBA history.

A guy who never shot less than 86% in any given season and shot 90% for his career.

From his point of view, yes, 71.6% is lousy.

I'm uncertain as to your point. Are you merely explaining it (I suspect everyone here is aware of Rick Barry's free throw ability, that he was an author of the Rick Barry scouting books and yes that could somewhat explain it, in terms of skewing his expectations) or are you saying it's reasonable for Barry to judge pros (centers) free throw shooting versus that of Rick Barry (now 6th in NBA-ABA combined free throw percentage, at that time 2nd with the only player above him still active).

In any case it was not exclusively Barry's book, most years Jordan Cohn and Barry co-authored it, with Barry (and his name) having been absent from the edition produced in the '93 offseason (and it was hardly just their opinions, a large number of scouts, media and other NBA gave their input). So one wonders whether the editorial process could have made criticisms more consistent (Pippen 66% "pretty bad", Manning "Free throw shooting is still suspect", Corie Blount 61.3% "drab", Bo Outlaw 59.2% "doesn't cut it" for many wings in the low 70s or below and bigs in the 50s it isn't even mentioned, for Shaq a late season spell at 70% is acknowledged as a cause for celebration).

If "excellent" is Danny Ainge at 83% and "pathetic" is Chris Webber at 53.2%, shouldn't a "lousy" shooter be closer to the latter than the former, especially if you grade on curve for position (which the handbooks sensibly tended to do, though apparently not for free throws that year). It may or may not have been the influence of Barry but it's certainly inconsistent.

I love the Handbooks but as others have noted a relative inability (for a superstar, and one with fabled post moves) to draw fouls is a more legitimate criticism than than a free throw percentage that I suspect was above average for that position.