RealGM Top 100 List #12

[MistyMountain20]

Don't lump me in with those Kobe-only fanboys. I'm a fan of the team, not just him. You are correct in mentioning that Pau was more efficient than Kobe in that Finals. And I'm saying he improved immensely in 2009-2010. I love Pau for his huge part in the two runs. But he wasn't that guy in 2008. I really don't know how to make this clearer. He was assisted on 66% of his shots in his Laker games in 2008 and that number dropped by 10% in the next 2 years. He wasn't as familiar with the triangle yet. He didn't have Phil's mental wisdom. He didn't have the playoff experience. He wasn't as good in 2008 as he was in 2009-2010. If we can't agree on that then we're going nowhere. I was a little harsh on Pau for his play in the finals, fair. But you're making it seem like he was Shaq and Kobe was just shotjacking for the hell of it. Put 2010 Pau on the 08 Lakers and that series is going 7.

I'll concede that the KG/Pau matchup isn't as bad as I made it out to be. But the Lakers weren't as deep as the Celtics were and they really needed more offensively from Pau than they got. He couldn't provide that, in part due to KG. How much of KG's bad shooting %s can be attributed to Pau I don't really know, but I do know KG loved the mid ranges and he wasn't that hot that series.

This is much better. Those exaggerations and name-calling really add very little and certainly caused to me to get a picture of you that you clearly don't like. Im sorry if I got that wrong, but the appearances were there.

I don't doubt Pau was more effective in 09 and 10, but that didn't make him ineffective in 08. I never said Pau was Shaq-like. I said he was a great offensive player and that I was stunned to see Kobe taking 10 more shots a game. I also said I didn't criticize Kobe much for it because it obviously was working great for the Lakers. I mentioned the 08 Finals as an aside because Kobe struggled way more than Pau did offensively.

Enough with this Pau sidetrack as he really isnt relevant to the discussion for a long time other than again to show how effective Kobe was offensively when he didnt have a big like Shaq or Pau and which was my point to begin with.

Okay. I just have a pet peeve with the Kobe fanboys thing since we have to deal with those guys a lot

Kobe taking more than 10 shots a game than Pau would've been fine in 08. Truthfully the 08 Finals were an anomaly - there hasn't been a better defensive team since then and the only ones better or even comparable in this millennium were the 04 Pistons after the Sheed trade and early-mid 00s Spurs teams. They were good enough on offense to crush the West.

I wouldn't say Kobe struggled "way more", it's just that it was more visible because it's easy to see Kobe miss a shot, it's a little harder to see Pau be unable to get the easy shots he wants and having to pass back out because he can't quite do anything. Like I said, Pau averaged 10 shots a game in the Finals. Kobe can pass the ball to Pau all he likes, but he can't make him take the shot.

Anyway, I apologize if I came off as hot-headed.

You guys are having a lot of back and forth on the '08 Finals; correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember it correctly, Perkins spent a good amount of time on Pau and Garnett guarded Odom quite a bit. That dynamic changed when Posey was put into the game, but when they had a traditional frontcourt lineup (Perkins or Brown), they did the grunt work of guarding Pau. It's not very relevant to the players that are getting discussed here, but I thought I'd throw in what I remember from that series.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You guys are having a lot of back and forth on the '08 Finals; correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember it correctly, Perkins spent a good amount of time on Pau and Garnett guarded Odom quite a bit. That dynamic changed when Posey was put into the game, but when they had a traditional frontcourt lineup (Perkins or Brown), they did the grunt work of guarding Pau. It's not very relevant to the players that are getting discussed here, but I thought I'd throw in what I remember from that series.

That's pretty much how I remember it as well. I didn't remember it as a KG vs Pau series, I think people get that impression because they remember that jump ball call between KG and Pau in game 6. Admittedly, I haven't watched the series since it occurred in 2008, and that was 6 years ago now, so I won't say how much Pau and KG matched up, but I didn't remember it being the primary match up either.

[Notanoob]

Walton got himself an MVP, Finals MVP, and 6th Man of the Year, Robinson only had an MVP and DPOY award.

There's another center, Moses Malone, who won 3 MVPs and a Finals MVP.

Perhaps you've heard of him.

I was just making the comparison between Walton and Robinson, but I am convinced that Walton would have had a better career if he could have played 10 healthy seasons.

Moses was a scoring beast but I don't like that he wasn't always a great defensive player. He was great in 83, and for the purpose of this project I will stay consistent and vote him highly for his excellent peak, but I think that Walton was a significantly more skilled player and would have proven himself the better player had they squared off.

During his prime (77-78) in head to head matchups, Walton held Malone to just 13.8ppg, while Walton scored 19.5ppg. I suspect Walton's excellence on the defense glass was a major factor here. Heck, in two of those games, Moses failed to crack 5 points. Without the complete box score, I can't say more (if Moses was forced to play short minutes due to injury or something).

[Quotatious]

I'm very curious where Walton will go, but all due respect to him, based on his amazing peak, but I think it's way too early for him to get traction yet - it's just disrespectful to talk about Walton when the other guys give you about 10 seasons of superstar play, compared to like 2 of Walton (actually Karl Malone gives you about 15). I think even #47 (as he was voted in 2011), is too high - the list is supposed to be based on entire careers, right?

[HeartBreakKid]

You guys are having a lot of back and forth on the '08 Finals; correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember it correctly, Perkins spent a good amount of time on Pau and Garnett guarded Odom quite a bit. That dynamic changed when Posey was put into the game, but when they had a traditional frontcourt lineup (Perkins or Brown), they did the grunt work of guarding Pau. It's not very relevant to the players that are getting discussed here, but I thought I'd throw in what I remember from that series.

I was thinking that myself, because who else would Kendrick Perkins guard?

[FJS]

To be fair to Oscar, I think there are multiple sources indicating that Oscar was a good team fit in Milwaukee. The personality issues and team failures tend to be from his prime in Cincinnati.
What teammates did Magic have conflicts with? Jordan, sure . . . he was a bigger jerk than Oscar although Oscar's contemporaries do seem to confirm that his personality was difficult to be around. But Magic?

With Nixon - or it was just a rumor? And he definitely had conflict with coach and not all Lakers players were with Magic here.

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I'm surprised how suddenly people are voting for Malone. Of course his longevity is outstanding, but because of questions about his game (relatively inefficient style of play what was exposed multiple times in playoffs, not very good defensively [team D is more important than man to man D] - what's extremely important for bigs unless they are offensively as good as Shaq/Dirk/Barkley - and even doubts if he really was the best Jazz player until late 90s) I think he shouldn't be ranked above players like Dirk, Oscar, DRob, Kobe (my 4 favorites for #12 spot) or even Barkley, West or Ewing.

I'm really interested in how much Malone and Stockton helped each other and who was better player. Unfortunately neither of them missed many games, but John didn't play in 4 games in 1990 and 18 in 1998. Malone without and with Stockton during these 2 seasons averaged:

Code: Select all

TYPE   G   MPG   FG%   FTA   PPG   UTAH eff differential
w/o   22   37.1   52.4   9.6   25.1   +3.5
with   141   37.8   55.0   10.8   29.6   +6.5


So seems like without Stockton Malone was still very good scorer, but just not as good as with Stockton (better volume AND efficiency with him), and more like Elton Brand or Blake Griffin. Also, notice how much Jazz improve with Stockton - that's of course just small piece of evidence, but it's consistent with what RAPM says. Another thing showing how much Malone depended on Stockton is how many of his shots were assisted by John:

Code: Select all

season   % asisted by Stockton   
1997   34,0   
1998   31,3   
1999   33,8   
2000   36,6   
2001   35,2   
2002   34,3   
2003   37,3   

That's quite similar to how much Nash helped Amare:

Code: Select all

season   % assisted by Nash
2005   32,9
2007   35,4
2008   39,5
2009   33,4
2010   39,3


The difference is that Stockton was mostly pas his prime, while Nash during his peak and while Malone also was older than Amare, he still was MVP level player in 1999 and wasn't bothered by injuries like Stoudemiere.

Anyway, that's just some food for thought, because I think it's not so obvious that Malone > Stockton.

(BTW, healthy peak Magic was outplayed only once in playoffs - by Stockton in 1988).

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I would probably vote again for Oscar and it seems it would be very close between him and Malone, because with ShaqAttack switching his vote to Kobe right now Bryant has 6 votes, while Karl and Robertson 4 each (assuming I would also vote for Oscar).

I think Stockton and Malone complimented each other, but they weren't as dependant as a lot of people want to say.
I think Stockton playing with one great PF or Center a a few shooters would have been awesome too. For example in 90's sonics. With Kemp, Ellis, Pierce, Schrempft.
And Malone would have been great too playing with a pass first pg.

They were pretty great playing each other... but Eaton and Ostertag weren't a help in the offensive end. Neither Iavaroni, Hansen, Keefe or Foster (people who actually started with them).

Malone showed in LA with 40 years that he was a hell of a player.
And stockton as a rookie showed he was going to be a great pg, dishing 5.1 apg in only 18 mpg, playing without Malone, of course.

[Senior]

You guys are having a lot of back and forth on the '08 Finals; correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember it correctly, Perkins spent a good amount of time on Pau and Garnett guarded Odom quite a bit. That dynamic changed when Posey was put into the game, but when they had a traditional frontcourt lineup (Perkins or Brown), they did the grunt work of guarding Pau. It's not very relevant to the players that are getting discussed here, but I thought I'd throw in what I remember from that series.

Damn. I think you and Shaq are right. I knew KG did work on one person, guess I misremembered who. My bad.

I guess it would fit more since Odom was more perimeter oriented than Pau. I still stand by my statement that Pau was a lot better in 09-10 than he was in 08, though.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'm very curious where Walton will go, but all due respect to him, based on his amazing peak, but I think it's way too early for him to get traction yet - it's just disrespectful to talk about Walton when the other guys give you about 10 seasons of superstar play, compared to like 2 of Walton (actually Karl Malone gives you about 15). I think even #47 (as he was voted in 2011), is too high - the list is supposed to be based on entire careers, right?

FWIW, Walton's peak was so good, and he did get a title out of it, that I'd at least have him in consideration for my top 30, even though I usually judge players based on their prime typically consisting of 4-6 seasons or so while Walton doesn't even give you a full 2.

[MistyMountain20]

You guys are having a lot of back and forth on the '08 Finals; correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember it correctly, Perkins spent a good amount of time on Pau and Garnett guarded Odom quite a bit. That dynamic changed when Posey was put into the game, but when they had a traditional frontcourt lineup (Perkins or Brown), they did the grunt work of guarding Pau. It's not very relevant to the players that are getting discussed here, but I thought I'd throw in what I remember from that series.

That's pretty much how I remember it as well. I didn't remember it as a KG vs Pau series, I think people get that impression because they remember that jump ball call between KG and Pau in game 6. Admittedly, I haven't watched the series since it occurred in 2008, and that was 6 years ago now, so I won't say how much Pau and KG matched up, but I didn't remember it being the primary match up either.

Yep, I remember Pau was actually able to play pretty well when matched up against KG. It was the the onslaught of guys way heavier than Pau that he had trouble with. Series still bothers me, aside from the Bynum injury, I think if Phil would have put Kobe on Rondo in game 1 instead of the second half of game 2, that could have been a 7-game series going either way.

[MistyMountain20]

You guys are having a lot of back and forth on the '08 Finals; correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember it correctly, Perkins spent a good amount of time on Pau and Garnett guarded Odom quite a bit. That dynamic changed when Posey was put into the game, but when they had a traditional frontcourt lineup (Perkins or Brown), they did the grunt work of guarding Pau. It's not very relevant to the players that are getting discussed here, but I thought I'd throw in what I remember from that series.

Damn. I think you and Shaq are right. I knew KG did work on one person, guess I misremembered who. My bad.

I guess it would fit more since Odom was more perimeter oriented than Pau. I still stand by my statement that Pau was a lot better in 09-10 than he was in 08, though.

Yup, KG did pretty well against LO in that series, I think the physicality allowed in that series took awhile for them to adjust to (in Lamar's case he didn't really adjust). Lack of frontcourt depth and improvement on the Lakers part played a huge role in the 2010 championship team.

[Notanoob]

I'm very curious where Walton will go, but all due respect to him, based on his amazing peak, but I think it's way too early for him to get traction yet - it's just disrespectful to talk about Walton when the other guys give you about 10 seasons of superstar play, compared to like 2 of Walton (actually Karl Malone gives you about 15). I think even #47 (as he was voted in 2011), is too high - the list is supposed to be based on entire careers, right?

The criteria for voting is deliberately vague. I chose to see greatness as "who was the best basketball player?" not who played well longer. Most people decide to consider longevity, I really don't, except perhaps as a real tie-breaker.

[Senior]

You guys are having a lot of back and forth on the '08 Finals; correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember it correctly, Perkins spent a good amount of time on Pau and Garnett guarded Odom quite a bit. That dynamic changed when Posey was put into the game, but when they had a traditional frontcourt lineup (Perkins or Brown), they did the grunt work of guarding Pau. It's not very relevant to the players that are getting discussed here, but I thought I'd throw in what I remember from that series.

That's pretty much how I remember it as well. I didn't remember it as a KG vs Pau series, I think people get that impression because they remember that jump ball call between KG and Pau in game 6. Admittedly, I haven't watched the series since it occurred in 2008, and that was 6 years ago now, so I won't say how much Pau and KG matched up, but I didn't remember it being the primary match up either.

Yep, I remember Pau was actually able to play pretty well when matched up against KG. It was the the onslaught of guys way heavier than Pau that he had trouble with. Series still bothers me, aside from the Bynum injury, I think if Phil would have put Kobe on Rondo in game 1 instead of the second half of game 2, that could have been a 7-game series going either way.

Not even that, if Ariza didn't have a broken foot that series could've gone either way since the Lakers would've been able to defend Pierce a little better instead of having...Vlad Rad and Walton on him. That series was closer than 4-2, especially with the comeback in Game 4...I think people look at Game 6 and see that as what really happened. Those bench guys like PJ Brown, Leon Powe, TA, Eddie House..that was the kind of contribution the 08 Lakers lacked.

[Owly]

Bill Walton was a better player than David Robinson, IMO, but oh well.

I'd also suggest that Chuck had a better peak than the Mailman, and should get some consideration for being so utterly dominant on offense.

I’m not convinced he was a better player, but you’d struggle to get Walton in anywhere near soon if people are using or factoring in any variation of career value added.

I like Robinson, and was hoping he'd have a shot at getting in ahead of KG, but it was not meant to be.

But I am sure that Walton was a better player.

First, Walton was a better rebounder. To illustrate, his DRB% cracked 30 5 times in his prime, and his TRB% was over 20% 6 times.

Second, Walton was miles and miles ahead of Robinson as a passer, possibly the GOAT-passing center. This basically is a given, but as evidence, Walton's AST% cracked 20% multiple times, whereas Robinson was stuck in the low teens for his career outside of 94.

Third, Walton was a significantly more skilled scorer than Robinson. While he was never asked to volume score, he had a post game similar to Duncan's, complete with a bank shot and everything. Robinson had the advantage in the regular season, but their TS%s are identical in the postseason.

Fourth, while Robinson has the edge as a shot-blocker, Walton is no slouch himself. He was an extremely high-motor guy, contesting every shot possible and leading the league in blocks his championship year. This should make his superior defensive rebounding even more impressive, given that contesting shots can take you out of position to grab boards.

Walton got himself an MVP, Finals MVP, and 6th Man of the Year, Robinson only had an MVP and DPOY award.

Well my main point was so long as a decent number of people are looking at career he won't get any traction here or soon.

And in so far as the accolades thing relates to career achievements Robinson holds a vast lead in All-NBA appearances (first team and overall), all-star appearances, MVP, led the league in scoring, in fg% and finished in the 5 in steals per game. So I think he's got accolades/achievements sewn up.

As to better player (i.e. when healthy) I'm not sure there's any point getting into it here (Robinson is getting traction, Walton isn't) but the bullet responses points are:
-Walton is, yes, a better rebounder, Robinson isn't a slouch here though.
-Walton is, yes, a better passer, I don't think the gap is as big as you state. When Robinson played the offensive hub role Walton did ('94), his assist % is very comparable. You could quibble about whether that was equal passing skill/vision or whether Robinson got more assists by collapsing defenses and drawing doubles but the effect was the same (counter argument might be that Walton - at his apex - played with smarter, better fitting and better teammates).
- Whatever "more skilled" means, he was a much lower impact scorer, carrying a much lower burden less efficiently (for playoffs, note; Walton's tiny sample size; Robinson's larger scoring burden; Robinson's teammates through '96, particularly at his peak, allowing him to be the singular focus of opposing defenses)
- Robinson was also a better ball hawk, and he too had to contest shots and rebound.

[Jim Naismith]

Walton got himself an MVP, Finals MVP, and 6th Man of the Year, Robinson only had an MVP and DPOY award.

There's another center, Moses Malone, who won 3 MVPs and a Finals MVP.

Perhaps you've heard of him.

I was just making the comparison between Walton and Robinson, but I am convinced that Walton would have had a better career if he could have played 10 healthy seasons.

Moses was a scoring beast but I don't like that he wasn't always a great defensive player. He was great in 83, and for the purpose of this project I will stay consistent and vote him highly for his excellent peak, but I think that Walton was a significantly more skilled player and would have proven himself the better player had they squared off.

During his prime (77-78) in head to head matchups, Walton held Malone to just 13.8ppg, while Walton scored 19.5ppg. I suspect Walton's excellence on the defense glass was a major factor here. Heck, in two of those games, Moses failed to crack 5 points. Without the complete box score, I can't say more (if Moses was forced to play short minutes due to injury or something).

You might be exaggerating Walton's defensive prowess.

Those two games are from Dec. 1976 and Feb. 1977, part of the 1976-1977 season, when Moses was pre-prime and just 21-years old.

That season, Moses only averaged 13.5 ppg.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The criteria for voting is deliberately vague. I chose to see greatness as "who was the best basketball player?" not who played well longer. Most people decide to consider longevity, I really don't, except perhaps as a real tie-breaker.

I'm similar in that regard. If it's close enough, I'll go with longevity as a tiebreaker, but if a player was clearly better to me, then lasting longer won't be enough.

[semi-sentient]

Yup, KG did pretty well against LO in that series, I think the physicality allowed in that series took awhile for them to adjust to (in Lamar's case he didn't really adjust). Lack of frontcourt depth and improvement on the Lakers part played a huge role in the 2010 championship team.

Pau himself admitted (during an interview in the middle of the '09 Finals) that he wasn't mentally ready for the Celtics physicality in the '08 Finals. Neither was Odom for that matter. That's the whole reason that the Lakers came back in '09 with a chip on their shoulder, and that clearly showed when they faced the Celtics during the regular season. Not sure if anyone recalls this, but KG tried to get in Odom's face during one of the meetings, and Odom pretty much mocked him for it by daring him to do something other than talking. The '09 Lakers were much tougher mentally as a result of being embarrassed in '08, that's for sure.

... and yeah, Perkins mostly guarded Pau in '08. I think Perkins was quite underrated at the time. This is the same guy that did a great job on Howard in '09 with KG out.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Pau himself admitted (during an interview in the middle of the '09 Finals) that he wasn't mentally ready for the Celtics physicality in the '08 Finals. Neither was Odom for that matter. That's the whole reason that the Lakers came back in '09 with a chip on their shoulder, and that clearly showed when they faced the Celtics during the regular season. Not sure if anyone recalls this, but KG tried to get in Odom's face during one of the meetings, and Odom pretty much mocked him for it by daring him to do something other than talking. The '09 Lakers were much tougher mentally as a result of being embarrassed in '08, that's for sure.

... and yeah, Perkins mostly guarded Pau in '08. I think Perkins was quite underrated at the time. This is the same guy that did a great job on Howard in '09 with KG out.

I also remember Pau gaining weight in the offseason after the '08 finals, and it was noticeable the following season. This paid off when Pau faced bigger frontcourts, especially since he was playing center more often than not due to Bynum's injuries and the fact that he played better with Odom.

[RSCD3_]

Yup, KG did pretty well against LO in that series, I think the physicality allowed in that series took awhile for them to adjust to (in Lamar's case he didn't really adjust). Lack of frontcourt depth and improvement on the Lakers part played a huge role in the 2010 championship team.

Pau himself admitted (during an interview in the middle of the '09 Finals) that he wasn't mentally ready for the Celtics physicality in the '08 Finals. Neither was Odom for that matter. That's the whole reason that the Lakers came back in '09 with a chip on their shoulder, and that clearly showed when they faced the Celtics during the regular season. Not sure if anyone recalls this, but KG tried to get in Odom's face during one of the meetings, and Odom pretty much mocked him for it by daring him to do something other than talking. The '09 Lakers were much tougher mentally as a result of being embarrassed in '08, that's for sure.

... and yeah, Perkins mostly guarded Pau in '08. I think Perkins was quite underrated at the time. This is the same guy that did a great job on Howard in '09 with KG out.

What specifically happened to perkins that made his skill set evaporate, did the one injury really take away a lot of his athleticism?

Ive heard theories that he lost weight to gain his speed back but that sort of made him a tweener in a sense that his speed was never going to be good anyway and now he wasn't as much of a physical force

What changed?

[acrossthecourt]

Tony Allen barely played because he was limited, Rondo was 21 years old and he's one of the more overrated players of his era, and Posey was an unremarkable role player. I also rarely see people tout the virtues of Eddie House. Vujacic and Vladimir are high volume three-point shooters just like him, but bigger.

[MistyMountain20]

Tony Allen barely played because he was limited, Rondo was 21 years old and he's one of the more overrated players of his era, and Posey was an unremarkable role player. I also rarely see people tout the virtues of Eddie House. Vujacic and Vladimir are high volume three-point shooters just like him, but bigger.

What's this in responding to?