Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats

Moderators: Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier

User avatar
CoffeeCakez
Senior
Posts: 712
And1: 567
Joined: May 09, 2016
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#161 » by CoffeeCakez » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:15 am

Baski wrote:This is the problem though. I always hear this narrative of "Kobe could always create whatever shot he wanted in the clutch because he's so skilled" and yet every single shot I've seen him "create" in the clutch ends up as a contested fadeaway, sometimes from 3pt range, sometimes over multiple defenders. That's not what i call shot creating. That's just taking the ball, dribbling a little, rising for a shot and praying it goes in. Now Kobe's shot making ability did allow him to hit a small number of those shots, but why people consistently praise those kinds of shots like Kobe "creates" good looks out of nowhere is beyond me. Jordan has a few highlights where he actually creates space and gets a mostly open shot, or makes sure he's risen well above his defender before shooting, and that's obviously why his numbers look great no matter what clutch definition you use. Because he actually "creates" good shots unlike Kobe. LeBron is never going to take such a "dumb" shot because it's basically an assured miss, but those shots Kobe took are nothing LeBron himself can't "create" if we're being honest.
This season we're seeing actual shot creation in the clutch from LeBron with those step back threes and turnaround fadeaways of his. You see the space he creates with those and the subsequent makes that follow.




go through this video, you will see many examples of shot creating that bledredwine was talking about - pump fake to get your defender in the air, double crossover and step back to create space, spin move into the lane and floater, pull up jumper (his most deadliest weapon); I agree that some of those shots are over 2 or more defenders but with 1 or 2 seconds left there is not enough time to execute another play and phil jackson himself wanted kobe to shoot those last crunch time shots. It takes innate skill and deadly footwork to get some of shots off you saw in the video - something common to both MJ and Kobe.



now look at LeBron's game winners. most of these are him driving in, using his body/physical strength to barrel in and score. some are even travels (the wizards one). And the jumper ones are him taking stepbacks with ALOT of space that the defenders are giving him already - thats not him creating that space. You don't see any skillful footwork being utilized here - rather just using his body to barrel into the paint.

hope this clears it up
Don't let the media fool you that 'Lebron is clutch', truth is here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1651289&start=80#start_here
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#162 » by Baski » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:16 am

CoffeeCakez wrote:
This discussion is about 3 players who arguably have had the MOST fanfare worldwide and are thus the most talked about players.


Again, IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, this is a LeBron vs Kobe thread. Keep saying what you want.

CoffeeCakez wrote:So kobe is overrated in the clutch when compared to LeBron? funny you say that when the data in the OP states otherwise, and its a pretty decent shot sample when compared to looking at just game tying/winning shots by both in the playoffs (which is a sample of just ~20 or so shots)


The data in the OP state otherwise? How about the data that Bombsquadsammy posted on here like a million times already? I've already stated in this thread that limiting clutch to fixed time frames and point differentials is useless and misleading, as i and another poster illustrated with two different instances of LeBron being clutch in the finals. Clutch is NOT just about the last x minutes with the game within y points. As long as we can't agree on that then this discussion goes nowhere.
And my criticism of the overrating of Kobe in the clutch isn't even stat based. It's this notion that Kobe can "create any shot he wants in the clutch". If anything Kobe makes the shot as difficult as possible for himself, and how that can be seen as creating is beyond me.

CoffeeCakez wrote:We could analyze every single playoff game that both kobe and lebron played in look at the play by play in close games in the last few minutes or better yet, watch the videos but that would be a daunting task. But we don't need to go that far, Lebron's performance in the 2011 finals itself should ideally re-affirm the notion that he isn't as clutch as kobe or jordan and cement it as a fact. Nevermind the fact that he only scored a whopping 8 points in a finals game - he also mentally checked out and did not even show heart and EFFORT in some of those games. Unfortunately, stat sheets don't show body language but you can tell he was out of it and wanted to leave the court asap. That to me is unacceptable and should destroy any media comparison of him being 'clutch' by any means whatsoever.


This is about as useful as looking to Kobe's 00,04 and 08 finals, and concluding that he is a terrible finals performer who chokes when the lights shine brightest. "Let's focus on his lowlights and it shows that he isn't clutch".
Yeah LeBron checking out is definitely not as bad as Kobe deciding he wasn't coming in 2nd to Shaq anymore and shooting his team out of the finals, or Kobe basically gifting the 08 celtics the ring with his pathetic last 3 games. Well at least he had heart though. His heart is enough to wipe away all of his shortcomings, while LeBron, in spite of everything he's done since the 2011 finals, has to be judged as if that's the last series he ever played in.



CoffeeCakez wrote: he isn't as clutch as kobe or jordan

Oh my Gooooooooooood! Kobe Bryant is NOT in the same universe as Jordan clutchwise. Neither is LeBron. I can't believe there are still people who think Kobe was close to Jordan in any way.
Kobe and LeBron is a discussion. Kobe and Jordan is a joke.
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#163 » by Baski » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:47 am

CoffeeCakez wrote:
Baski wrote:This is the problem though. I always hear this narrative of "Kobe could always create whatever shot he wanted in the clutch because he's so skilled" and yet every single shot I've seen him "create" in the clutch ends up as a contested fadeaway, sometimes from 3pt range, sometimes over multiple defenders. That's not what i call shot creating. That's just taking the ball, dribbling a little, rising for a shot and praying it goes in. Now Kobe's shot making ability did allow him to hit a small number of those shots, but why people consistently praise those kinds of shots like Kobe "creates" good looks out of nowhere is beyond me. Jordan has a few highlights where he actually creates space and gets a mostly open shot, or makes sure he's risen well above his defender before shooting, and that's obviously why his numbers look great no matter what clutch definition you use. Because he actually "creates" good shots unlike Kobe. LeBron is never going to take such a "dumb" shot because it's basically an assured miss, but those shots Kobe took are nothing LeBron himself can't "create" if we're being honest.
This season we're seeing actual shot creation in the clutch from LeBron with those step back threes and turnaround fadeaways of his. You see the space he creates with those and the subsequent makes that follow.




go through this video, you will see many examples of shot creating that bledredwine was talking about - pump fake to get your defender in the air, double crossover and step back to create space, spin move into the lane and floater, pull up jumper (his most deadliest weapon); I agree that some of those shots are over 2 or more defenders but with 1 or 2 seconds left there is not enough time to execute another play and phil jackson himself wanted kobe to shoot those last crunch time shots. It takes innate skill and deadly footwork to get some of shots off you saw in the video - something common to both MJ and Kobe.

Yup this video is not new to me, but i watched it again for the heck of it. 2 putbacks, 2 shots where Gasol and Fisher dished to him wide open, and that nice floater he had on Bowen. Two nice driving layups too, but those don't count because that's all LeBron does, right? Every other shot though, like i said, contested fadeaway. I feel like I'm obligated to clarify every time that I'm not knocking his shotmaking abilities. It's a credit to him that he can make some of those shots he takes, but i see nothing special in terms of actually trying to get a good look.




now look at LeBron's game winners. most of these are him driving in, using his body/physical strength to barrel in and score. some are even travels (the wizards one). And the jumper ones are him taking stepbacks with ALOT of space that the defenders are giving him already - thats not him creating that space. You don't see any skillful footwork being utilized here - rather just using his body to barrel into the paint.

hope this clears it up


Yeah you'd much rather he just pulls up or pump fakes into a shot he doesn't reliably make right? That's veeeeery clutch. God forbid he actually gets to the rim where he's basically the GOAT perimeter player, or leverage the space he himself creates on the threat of his drives. Nah he should just take the shot the defense wants him to take, a contested fadeaway. That's super clutch.
After all, when defenders bite on Kobe's pump fakes because of his threat to shoot, that's not him creating space right? The defenders already play him tight.
User avatar
CoffeeCakez
Senior
Posts: 712
And1: 567
Joined: May 09, 2016
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#164 » by CoffeeCakez » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:47 am

Baski wrote:Again, IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, this is a LeBron vs Kobe thread. Keep saying what you want.


ok whatever you wish to think.

The data in the OP state otherwise? How about the data that Bombsquadsammy posted on here like a million times already? I've already stated in this thread that limiting clutch to fixed time frames and point differentials is useless and misleading, as i and another poster illustrated with two different instances of LeBron being clutch in the finals. Clutch is NOT just about the last x minutes with the game within y points. As long as we can't agree on that then this discussion goes nowhere.
And my criticism of the overrating of Kobe in the clutch isn't even stat based. It's this notion that Kobe can "create any shot he wants in the clutch". If anything Kobe makes the shot as difficult as possible for himself, and how that can be seen as creating is beyond me.


the data bombsquadsammy posted constitutes a very small sample size. just 25-30 shots..seriously? you want to draw conclusions based on that?

And you are reaching so far to define 'clutch' in your own way which is derailing the topic and main point of this thread. you can argue that clutch is not just about the last x minutes within y points but that exact scenario is how the term clutch is WIDELY used by players, coaches, and analysts for many years now. It is the most prominent definition of clutch - whether you agree with it or not. Why do you think teams/coaches draw up specific plays and strategize for these exact clutch time situations? because these situations happen and execution in the last minutes of a tight game is crucial to winning.

This is about as useful as looking to Kobe's 00,04 and 08 finals, and concluding that he is a terrible finals performer who chokes when the lights shine brightest. "Let's focus on his lowlights and it shows that he isn't clutch".
Yeah LeBron checking out is definitely not as bad as Kobe deciding he wasn't coming in 2nd to Shaq anymore and shooting his team out of the finals, or Kobe basically gifting the 08 celtics the ring with his pathetic last 3 games. Well at least he had heart though. His heart is enough to wipe away all of his shortcomings, while LeBron, in spite of everything he's done since the 2011 finals, has to be judged as if that's the last series he ever played in.


in 2000, kobe had to miss most of game 2 and sat out game 3 due to an ankle sprain and he was only 21 at that time. Didn't even reach superstar status so I don't hold that against him. Yes he was inefficient horribly in 04 against detroit but you can't say for sure that he was shooting his team out the finals on purpose unless you can read minds, detroit's defense was one of the best ever and they shut off a lot of our key guys. in 2008 vs the celtics, you do realize that the celtics team from 07-10 was arguably the best defensive team of all time or if not top 3 atleast. All of the examples you mentioned here don't address my point though - kobe never gave up on his team in the playoffs and esp in the finals like lebron did in '11. and yes I will continue to judge him for it because a bad performance with effort is one thing, but a complete lack of effort is inexcusable, im sorry.

Oh my Gooooooooooood! Kobe Bryant is NOT in the same universe as Jordan clutchwise. Neither is LeBron. I can't believe there are still people who think Kobe was close to Jordan in any way.
Kobe and LeBron is a discussion. Kobe and Jordan is a joke.


Kobe wasn't better than MJ in the clutch but he wasn't that far off -- look at the data in the OP. It's lebron who is not in the same universe as these two clutch-wise.
Don't let the media fool you that 'Lebron is clutch', truth is here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1651289&start=80#start_here
User avatar
CoffeeCakez
Senior
Posts: 712
And1: 567
Joined: May 09, 2016
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#165 » by CoffeeCakez » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:12 am

i'll put my reply in red

Baski wrote:


Yup this video is not new to me, but i watched it again for the heck of it. 2 putbacks, 2 shots where Gasol and Fisher dished to him wide open, and that nice floater he had on Bowen. Two nice driving layups too, but those don't count because that's all LeBron does, right? Every other shot though, like i said, contested fadeaway. I feel like I'm obligated to clarify every time that I'm not knocking his shotmaking abilities. It's a credit to him that he can make some of those shots he takes, but i see nothing special in terms of actually trying to get a good look.

you somehow overlooked the footwork and skill kobe utilized in getting a majority of those shots up. Yes they are contested but its not like he had 0 space to operate except for the one over wade or the kings one. The adequate amount of space he created by footwork and cross over, pull up was all he needed to get a decent look at the bucket and drain it. For kobe that IS a good shot because he IS THAT good at shot creating and making. - its why he has double the amount of gamewinners in his career as Lebron - look it up



now look at LeBron's game winners. most of these are him driving in, using his body/physical strength to barrel in and score. some are even travels (the wizards one). And the jumper ones are him taking stepbacks with ALOT of space that the defenders are giving him already - thats not him creating that space. You don't see any skillful footwork being utilized here - rather just using his body to barrel into the paint.

hope this clears it up


Yeah you'd much rather he just pulls up or pump fakes into a shot he doesn't reliably make right? That's veeeeery clutch. God forbid he actually gets to the rim where he's basically the GOAT perimeter player, or leverage the space he himself creates on the threat of his drives. Nah he should just take the shot the defense wants him to take, a contested fadeaway. That's super clutch.
After all, when defenders bite on Kobe's pump fakes because of his threat to shoot, that's not him creating space right? The defenders already play him tight.

thats EXACTLY the point bledredwine was making - that LeBron doesn't have the ability that kobe and MJ have to use footwork and handling skills to create space, hence he is terrible at pull ups and pump fake shots. Whether or not LeBron uses his physical strength to drive to the paint was not your original point - you stated that lebron could "create" those same looks on clutch jump shots that MJ and kobe could and evidence states that he can't.
Don't let the media fool you that 'Lebron is clutch', truth is here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1651289&start=80#start_here
User avatar
CoffeeCakez
Senior
Posts: 712
And1: 567
Joined: May 09, 2016
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#166 » by CoffeeCakez » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:17 am

Baski wrote:Your point keeps changing though. Plus you're ignoring my other posts. I'm really interested in hearing how you justify calling Kobe a better playoff scorer given the data i showed you, and how Durant outscoring LeBron in the clutch makes him worse than Kobe who was also bad in the clutch in 09 and 10. I'll say it again: for all of Kobe's footwork, post game and midrange, he still shot terribly in every single finals he played in from 04 till 10, especially in the clutch.




Kobe (last 5 mins with a margin of +/- 5; finals only)

09-10: 1/6
08-09: 7/20
01-02: 2/5
00-01: 4/8
99-00: 6/10

Totals: 20/49
FG% 41

Kobe (last 2 mins with margin of +/- 3; finals only)

09-10: 1/2
08-09: 1/5
01-02: 1/2
00-01: 1/2
99-00: 4/6

Totals: 8/17
FG% 47

Lebron shoots 27% and 17% in these situations respectively.
Don't let the media fool you that 'Lebron is clutch', truth is here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1651289&start=80#start_here
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#167 » by Baski » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:45 am

CoffeeCakez wrote:
Baski wrote:Your point keeps changing though. Plus you're ignoring my other posts. I'm really interested in hearing how you justify calling Kobe a better playoff scorer given the data i showed you, and how Durant outscoring LeBron in the clutch makes him worse than Kobe who was also bad in the clutch in 09 and 10. I'll say it again: for all of Kobe's footwork, post game and midrange, he still shot terribly in every single finals he played in from 04 till 10, especially in the clutch.




Kobe (last 5 mins with a margin of +/- 5; finals only)

09-10: 1/6
08-09: 7/20
01-02: 2/5
00-01: 4/8
99-00: 6/10

Totals: 20/49
FG% 41

Kobe (last 2 mins with margin of +/- 3; finals only)

09-10: 1/2
08-09: 1/5
01-02: 1/2
00-01: 1/2
99-00: 4/6

Totals: 8/17
FG% 47

Lebron shoots 27% and 17% in these situations respectively.


I'm not sure you read my post. I said he shot terribly in all his finals from 04 till 10, especially in the clutch. What is the use of bringing up his earlier stats, especially in 2000 where you say he was injured? Plus where are his 04 and 08 "clutch time" shooting numbers? Weird that you boldened that phrase, and then just left out 2 years out of 4 thinking you were making a point to me. What's the deal with that?

And why would you quote that entire paragraph and wrongly respond to just one phrase from it?
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#168 » by Baski » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:30 am

CoffeeCakez wrote:i'll put my reply in red

you somehow overlooked the footwork and skill kobe utilized in getting a majority of those shots up. Yes they are contested but its not like he had 0 space to operate except for the one over wade or the kings one. The adequate amount of space he created by footwork and cross over, pull up was all he needed to get a decent look at the bucket and drain it. For kobe that IS a good shot because he IS THAT good at shot creating and making. - its why he has double the amount of gamewinners in his career as Lebron - look it up



A decent look at the bucket includes a hand or two in your face, goodness.
If it was a good shot for Kobe, he'd have many more gamewinners than he already does. You're telling me that he barely gets away from his defenders, but takes the shot anyway because he's Kobe, and because he made some of them, I'm supposed to just assign him this title of elite clutch shot creator? And what is with this footwork nonsense? Dribbling into a contested pullup requires footwork? A straight up and down pump fake motion followed by a fallaway shot from the exact same spot requires footwork? Come on.

You keep mixing up shot creating with shot making. If the two are inseparable to you then we can just agree to disagree.


CoffeeCakez wrote:thats EXACTLY the point bledredwine was making - that LeBron doesn't have the ability that kobe and MJ have to use footwork and handling skills to create space, hence he is terrible at pull ups and pump fake shots.


Again a freaking pump fake followed by a fall away shot does not showcase elite footwork. And this trend of saying "Kobe and MJ" like they're in similar tiers is silly. Just say "Kobe" or "MJ" and get your point across.

CoffeeCakez wrote:Whether or not LeBron uses his physical strength to drive to the paint was not your original point - you stated that lebron could "create" those same looks on clutch jump shots that MJ and kobe could and evidence states that he can't.


Again with the MJ and Kobe lol. Check again. I said that Kobe's clutch time shot creation does not hold up to the level of praise he's getting for it, and from what i see, his creation abilities in the clutch are not enough to place him above LeBron in the same situation. LeBron can definitely dribble into a contested fallaway or pumpfake and then shoot a fallaway, he can definitely put back missed shots, spot up for threes and drive to the basket. No fancy footwork needed for any of that. And that this season LeBron is creating actual space for his gamewinners, as evidenced by his 61% FG% in the 4th quarter this season. If the threat of your drive is enough that a simple jab or hesitation is enough to send your defender, who is forced to single cover you because you could pass to the open man when you see the double coming instead of Kobeing it over everybody, back by 3 ft, then yeah you're creating space for your stepback 3pt shot.
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#169 » by Baski » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:08 am

CoffeeCakez wrote:
the data bombsquadsammy posted constitutes a very small sample size. just 25-30 shots..seriously? you want to draw conclusions based on that?


What the hell are you talking about? 25-30 shots? That post is the most comprehensive set of data I've ever seen. Mutiple tables showing multiple stats over multiple time frames. One of the tables even showed one where Kobe and LeBron had like a 1000 FGA. And you're talking about 25-30 shots. If you're going to constantly refer to your data in the OP, at least have the common courtesy to read other people's data before dismissing them.

CoffeeCakez wrote:And you are reaching so far to define 'clutch' in your own way which is derailing the topic and main point of this thread. you can argue that clutch is not just about the last x minutes within y points but that exact scenario is how the term clutch is WIDELY used by players, coaches, and analysts for many years now. It is the most prominent definition of clutch - whether you agree with it or not. Why do you think teams/coaches draw up specific plays and strategize for these exact clutch time situations? because these situations happen and execution in the last minutes of a tight game is crucial to winning.


I don't agree with it because x and y change constantly. The last minutes of tight games are crucial like you say, but there is a problem with rigidly sticking to these definitions with no desire for discussion. As you Kobe fans like to say, context is needed. Any NBA fan who watches LeBron play and concludes he isn't clutch because he can't use fancy feetworkz within the last x minutes and y points of a game is as bad as someone calling Kobe a 45% chucker because he has missed the most shots in NBA history in the RS, PS, Finals and basically any other scenario.

CoffeeCakez wrote:in 2000, kobe had to miss most of game 2 and sat out game 3 due to an ankle sprain and he was only 21 at that time. Didn't even reach superstar status so I don't hold that against him. Yes he was inefficient horribly in 04 against detroit but you can't say for sure that he was shooting his team out the finals on purpose unless you can read minds, detroit's defense was one of the best ever and they shut off a lot of our key guys. in 2008 vs the celtics, you do realize that the celtics team from 07-10 was arguably the best defensive team of all time or if not top 3 atleast. All of the examples you mentioned here don't address my point though - kobe never gave up on his team in the playoffs and esp in the finals like lebron did in '11. and yes I will continue to judge him for it because a bad performance with effort is one thing, but a complete lack of effort is inexcusable, im sorry.


My point in bringing 2000 up was that no matter how you slice it, it was a bad series for him. That ankle sprain wasn't the sole reason he shot 36% from the floor. I don't penalize him for it because it's in the past and he's more than redeemed himself for it.

As for 2004, who cares whether or not he meant to shoot them out of the game? We know what he meant to do, and that was prove that he was the best player on the Lakers. You don't get to rewrite history. He unjustifiably outshot Shaq and shot like crap. "I will continue to judge him for it because a bad performance is one thing, but a complete disregard for team play in an effort to soothe your ego in the finals is inexcusable, I'm sorry." Sound familiar?

And if you want to forever penalize players for lack of effort in the past, Kobe should forever be known as a quitter who decided to stop shooting in a game 7 because his feelings were hurt. Oh yeah and publicly demanded a trade because he didn't have good teammates. Talk about inexcusable quitting.

Your 08 excuse is hilarious considering he played well in the first 3 games, only to absolutely collapse in the final 3, dragging the Lakers down with him. Putting that all on the Celtics defense is like putting LeBron's 2011 collapse on the Mavs defense, which was actually very well executed and focused on him.

I of course don't hold any of this against Kobe now, but in keeping with your evaluation of LeBron, i think i should.

CoffeeCakez wrote:Kobe wasn't better than MJ in the clutch but he wasn't that far off -- look at the data in the OP. It's lebron who is not in the same universe as these two clutch-wise.


Yeah I'm not gonna address your data anymore since you readily dismissed Bombsquadsammy's without even reading. MJ is on a higher tier than Kobe and you don't need stats to see that.
parapooper
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,647
And1: 988
Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#170 » by parapooper » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:58 am

Baski wrote:
CoffeeCakez wrote:
Baski wrote:Your point keeps changing though. Plus you're ignoring my other posts. I'm really interested in hearing how you justify calling Kobe a better playoff scorer given the data i showed you, and how Durant outscoring LeBron in the clutch makes him worse than Kobe who was also bad in the clutch in 09 and 10. I'll say it again: for all of Kobe's footwork, post game and midrange, he still shot terribly in every single finals he played in from 04 till 10, especially in the clutch.




Kobe (last 5 mins with a margin of +/- 5; finals only)

09-10: 1/6
08-09: 7/20
01-02: 2/5
00-01: 4/8
99-00: 6/10

Totals: 20/49
FG% 41

Kobe (last 2 mins with margin of +/- 3; finals only)

09-10: 1/2
08-09: 1/5
01-02: 1/2
00-01: 1/2
99-00: 4/6

Totals: 8/17
FG% 47

Lebron shoots 27% and 17% in these situations respectively.


I'm not sure you read my post. I said he shot terribly in all his finals from 04 till 10, especially in the clutch. What is the use of bringing up his earlier stats, especially in 2000 where you say he was injured? Plus where are his 04 and 08 "clutch time" shooting numbers? Weird that you boldened that phrase, and then just left out 2 years out of 4 thinking you were making a point to me. What's the deal with that?

And why would you quote that entire paragraph and wrongly respond to just one phrase from it?


To be fair, Kobe's finals clutch numbers in '04 and '08 are actually spectacular. 65ish % eFG, 100+% eFG in the last minute.
He probably did not mention them because it would just underline what idiotic and close to meaningless niche arguments Kobe fans cling to instead of just looking at overall stats and impact like a sane person would.
When Kobe had by far his best clutch numbers he lost the finals (one of them in epically bad fashion) and for the 2 titles he won as the man he had a 30ish eFG in the last 5min, 23% in the last 2 min and 17% in the last minute.

But whatever, let's address this nonsense one last time before the new year's resolution of wasting less time debating the willfully obtuse kick in.

Overall there it's pretty clear that his good finals clutch stats stem mostly from playing with Shaq. 2008-10 without Shaq he had a 37.5% eFG in the last 5 minutes.

LeBron was slightly better until 2014 (39% eFG in final 5 min +-5) but has had horrible finals clutch stats since 2015 (eFG% in the low 20ies). I would say that's probably due to exhaustion and leaving it all on the floor doing unprecedented heavy lifting - like leading teams in most/all stats, having to be main scorer, playmaker and defender on teams with horrible defensive casts ...

So if we compare LeBron and Kobe in similar finals situations - main guy on offense but not on defense on a somewhat evenly matched team then they are pretty similar with an edge to LeBron.
I'm sure MJ had better clutch stats in the finals but he was mostly beating up on inferior teams and didn't have a ton of stress situations plus there was no legal way to focus a teams defense on one player other than double-teaming and leaving others open.

For overall playoff clutch stats, where LeBron also has a large fraction of lower exhaustion/stress situations as well he looks clearly better than Kobe and actually great in almost all clutch situations (starting 2001) one can think of except around the 3minute to 1 minute to go time frame:
Image
Not sure how to interpret this. Once could say that Kobe closes in towards the end because LeBron gets tired from all his non-scoring responsibilities but in the last minute with ever increasing stakes LeBron dominates due to his nerves of steel while Kobe just can't handle the pressure and poops his diapers. But that would be sinking to Kobe fan levels so I will just take the sane route and say it's a due to small sample size fluctuations.

This gets even more pronounced when looking only at postseasons they were actually contending:
Image

Here are their clutch stats when contending as main guy in their 5-year prime:
Image
Again, it's pretty obvious how meaningless clutch stats are since Kobe's have an extreme negative correlation with how good he actually was and with the success he had as the main guy.

Here it looks a bit better for Kobe if we include the first round exit postseasons in his 06-10 stretch:
Image

Here are the numbers for the actual amount of points these guys scored in a range of superclutch situations in their 12-year primes in the postseason:
Image

PS: "tl" stands for "to tie or lead" in those 0-1sec scenarios

And in all this nonsense let's not forget that this ridiculous clutch stuff only became a thing around 2009 when LeBron got clearly better than Kobe and ESPN guys and Kobe fans rolled out the "yeah,but, who would you rather have in the last second with the ball in his hands when the game is on the line?".
Nobody ever even checked clutch stats until some reasonable people had enough after hearing this nonsense for months (years?) and did it sometime in 2009 to 2011.

It's still as stupid as it was back then. And let's not forget: statistically a large fraction of "clutch situations" LeBron was in would have been "already lost situations" if Kobe had played instead of him.
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#171 » by Baski » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:21 am

parapooper wrote:
Baski wrote:
CoffeeCakez wrote:


Kobe (last 5 mins with a margin of +/- 5; finals only)

09-10: 1/6
08-09: 7/20
01-02: 2/5
00-01: 4/8
99-00: 6/10

Totals: 20/49
FG% 41

Kobe (last 2 mins with margin of +/- 3; finals only)

09-10: 1/2
08-09: 1/5
01-02: 1/2
00-01: 1/2
99-00: 4/6

Totals: 8/17
FG% 47

Lebron shoots 27% and 17% in these situations respectively.


I'm not sure you read my post. I said he shot terribly in all his finals from 04 till 10, especially in the clutch. What is the use of bringing up his earlier stats, especially in 2000 where you say he was injured? Plus where are his 04 and 08 "clutch time" shooting numbers? Weird that you boldened that phrase, and then just left out 2 years out of 4 thinking you were making a point to me. What's the deal with that?

And why would you quote that entire paragraph and wrongly respond to just one phrase from it?


To be fair, Kobe's finals clutch numbers in '04 and '08 are actually spectacular. 65ish % eFG, 100+% eFG in the last minute.
He probably did not mention them because it would just underline what idiotic and close to meaningless niche arguments Kobe fans cling to instead of just looking at overall stats and impact like a sane person would.
When Kobe had by far his best clutch numbers he lost the finals (one of them in epically bad fashion) and for the 2 titles he won as the man he had a 30ish eFG in the last 5min, 23% in the last 2 min and 17% in the last minute.

But whatever, let's address this nonsense one last time before the new year's resolution of wasting less time debating the willfully obtuse kick in.

Overall there it's pretty clear that his good finals clutch stats stem mostly from playing with Shaq. 2008-10 without Shaq he had a 37.5% eFG in the last 5 minutes.

LeBron was slightly better until 2014 (39% eFG in final 5 min +-5) but has had horrible finals clutch stats since 2015 (eFG% in the low 20ies). I would say that's probably due to exhaustion and leaving it all on the floor doing unprecedented heavy lifting - like leading teams in most/all stats, having to be main scorer, playmaker and defender on teams with horrible defensive casts ...

So if we compare LeBron and Kobe in similar finals situations - main guy on offense but not on defense on a somewhat evenly matched team then they are pretty similar with an edge to LeBron.
I'm sure MJ had better clutch stats in the finals but he was mostly beating up on inferior teams and didn't have a ton of stress situations plus there was no legal way to focus a teams defense on one player other than double-teaming and leaving others open.

For overall playoff clutch stats, where LeBron also has a large fraction of lower exhaustion/stress situations as well he looks clearly better than Kobe and actually great in almost all clutch situations (starting 2001) one can think of except around the 3minute to 1 minute to go time frame:
Image
Not sure how to interpret this. Once could say that Kobe closes in towards the end because LeBron gets tired from all his non-scoring responsibilities but in the last minute with ever increasing stakes LeBron dominates due to his nerves of steel while Kobe just can't handle the pressure and poops his diapers. But that would be sinking to Kobe fan levels so I will just take the sane route and say it's a due to small sample size fluctuations.

This gets even more pronounced when looking only at postseasons they were actually contending:
Image

Here are their clutch stats when contending as main guy in their 5-year prime:
Image
Again, it's pretty obvious how meaningless clutch stats are since Kobe's have an extreme negative correlation with how good he actually was and with the success he had as the main guy.

Here it looks a bit better for Kobe if we include the first round exit postseasons in his 06-10 stretch:
Image

Here are the numbers for the actual amount of points these guys scored in a range of superclutch situations in their 12-year primes in the postseason:
Image

PS: "tl" stands for "to tie or lead" in those 0-1sec scenarios

And in all this nonsense let's not forget that this ridiculous clutch stuff only became a thing around 2009 when LeBron got clearly better than Kobe and ESPN guys and Kobe fans rolled out the "yeah,but, who would you rather have in the last second with the ball in his hands when the game is on the line?".
Nobody ever even checked clutch stats until some reasonable people had enough after hearing this nonsense for months (years?) and did it sometime in 2009 to 2011.

It's still as stupid as it was back then. And let's not forget: statistically a large fraction of "clutch situations" LeBron was in would have been "already lost situations" if Kobe had played instead of him.


See this a really really good analysis which paints LeBron as more clutch than Kobe. I personally find it hard to understand these kinds of stats because this data can exist alongside whatever data is in the OP saying that Kobe is great in the clutch while LeBron is terrible. It's what i meant by "x and y keeps changing" in my reply to Coffeecakes.

I'd like to see his response to this. How does Kobe's fancy footwork factor into that?
bledredwine
RealGM
Posts: 14,647
And1: 5,782
Joined: Sep 17, 2010
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#172 » by bledredwine » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:05 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
CoffeeCakez wrote:
hey I don't know about you but I will gladly take 5 championships to 3.


You know the best way to become a millionaire?

Start with a billion dollars.

Or team up with other superstars and Gm your own teams :)
:o LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad :o
User avatar
Ainosterhaspie
Veteran
Posts: 2,683
And1: 2,779
Joined: Dec 13, 2017

Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#173 » by Ainosterhaspie » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:39 pm

So Kobe loses when playing well in the clutch and wins when he plays poorly in the clutch? Perhaps clutch isn't the best way to evaluate players.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Only 7 Players in NBA history have 21,000 points, 5,750 assists and 5,750 rebounds. LeBron has double those numbers.
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#174 » by Baski » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:53 pm

Ainosterhaspie wrote:So Kobe loses when playing well in the clutch and wins when he plays poorly in the clutch? Perhaps clutch isn't the best way to evaluate players.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Nah you got it all wrong man. It's not about the wins or losses. It's about the skills and feetworks. I bet if you rewatch the ones he won, you'll see a lot of masterful pump fakes and pullups that showcase his elite shot creation abilities in the dying minutes.
dhsilv2
RealGM
Posts: 50,588
And1: 27,290
Joined: Oct 04, 2015

Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#175 » by dhsilv2 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:58 pm

Baski wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:So Kobe loses when playing well in the clutch and wins when he plays poorly in the clutch? Perhaps clutch isn't the best way to evaluate players.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Nah you got it all wrong man. It's not about the wins or losses. It's about the skills and feetworks. I bet if you rewatch the ones he won, you'll see a lot of masterful pump fakes and pullups that showcase his elite shot creation abilities in the dying minutes.


Basketball is like skating right, you get scored on how pretty the play was, not the results right?
User avatar
Ainosterhaspie
Veteran
Posts: 2,683
And1: 2,779
Joined: Dec 13, 2017

Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#176 » by Ainosterhaspie » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:12 pm

Baski wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:So Kobe loses when playing well in the clutch and wins when he plays poorly in the clutch? Perhaps clutch isn't the best way to evaluate players.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Nah you got it all wrong man. It's not about the wins or losses. It's about the skills and feetworks. I bet if you rewatch the ones he won, you'll see a lot of masterful pump fakes and pullups that showcase his elite shot creation abilities in the dying minutes.


My bad.
Only 7 Players in NBA history have 21,000 points, 5,750 assists and 5,750 rebounds. LeBron has double those numbers.
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#177 » by Baski » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:20 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Baski wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:So Kobe loses when playing well in the clutch and wins when he plays poorly in the clutch? Perhaps clutch isn't the best way to evaluate players.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Nah you got it all wrong man. It's not about the wins or losses. It's about the skills and feetworks. I bet if you rewatch the ones he won, you'll see a lot of masterful pump fakes and pullups that showcase his elite shot creation abilities in the dying minutes.


Basketball is like skating right, you get scored on how pretty the play was, not the results right?


That makes sense.
User avatar
CoffeeCakez
Senior
Posts: 712
And1: 567
Joined: May 09, 2016
   

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#178 » by CoffeeCakez » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:42 am

parapooper wrote:
Baski wrote:
CoffeeCakez wrote:


Kobe (last 5 mins with a margin of +/- 5; finals only)

09-10: 1/6
08-09: 7/20
01-02: 2/5
00-01: 4/8
99-00: 6/10

Totals: 20/49
FG% 41

Kobe (last 2 mins with margin of +/- 3; finals only)

09-10: 1/2
08-09: 1/5
01-02: 1/2
00-01: 1/2
99-00: 4/6

Totals: 8/17
FG% 47

Lebron shoots 27% and 17% in these situations respectively.


I'm not sure you read my post. I said he shot terribly in all his finals from 04 till 10, especially in the clutch. What is the use of bringing up his earlier stats, especially in 2000 where you say he was injured? Plus where are his 04 and 08 "clutch time" shooting numbers? Weird that you boldened that phrase, and then just left out 2 years out of 4 thinking you were making a point to me. What's the deal with that?

And why would you quote that entire paragraph and wrongly respond to just one phrase from it?


To be fair, Kobe's finals clutch numbers in '04 and '08 are actually spectacular. 65ish % eFG, 100+% eFG in the last minute.
He probably did not mention them because it would just underline what idiotic and close to meaningless niche arguments Kobe fans cling to instead of just looking at overall stats and impact like a sane person would.
When Kobe had by far his best clutch numbers he lost the finals (one of them in epically bad fashion) and for the 2 titles he won as the man he had a 30ish eFG in the last 5min, 23% in the last 2 min and 17% in the last minute.

But whatever, let's address this nonsense one last time before the new year's resolution of wasting less time debating the willfully obtuse kick in.

Overall there it's pretty clear that his good finals clutch stats stem mostly from playing with Shaq. 2008-10 without Shaq he had a 37.5% eFG in the last 5 minutes.

LeBron was slightly better until 2014 (39% eFG in final 5 min +-5) but has had horrible finals clutch stats since 2015 (eFG% in the low 20ies). I would say that's probably due to exhaustion and leaving it all on the floor doing unprecedented heavy lifting - like leading teams in most/all stats, having to be main scorer, playmaker and defender on teams with horrible defensive casts ...

So if we compare LeBron and Kobe in similar finals situations - main guy on offense but not on defense on a somewhat evenly matched team then they are pretty similar with an edge to LeBron.
I'm sure MJ had better clutch stats in the finals but he was mostly beating up on inferior teams and didn't have a ton of stress situations plus there was no legal way to focus a teams defense on one player other than double-teaming and leaving others open.

For overall playoff clutch stats, where LeBron also has a large fraction of lower exhaustion/stress situations as well he looks clearly better than Kobe and actually great in almost all clutch situations (starting 2001) one can think of except around the 3minute to 1 minute to go time frame:
Image
Not sure how to interpret this. Once could say that Kobe closes in towards the end because LeBron gets tired from all his non-scoring responsibilities but in the last minute with ever increasing stakes LeBron dominates due to his nerves of steel while Kobe just can't handle the pressure and poops his diapers. But that would be sinking to Kobe fan levels so I will just take the sane route and say it's a due to small sample size fluctuations.

This gets even more pronounced when looking only at postseasons they were actually contending:
Image

Here are their clutch stats when contending as main guy in their 5-year prime:
Image
Again, it's pretty obvious how meaningless clutch stats are since Kobe's have an extreme negative correlation with how good he actually was and with the success he had as the main guy.

Here it looks a bit better for Kobe if we include the first round exit postseasons in his 06-10 stretch:
Image

Here are the numbers for the actual amount of points these guys scored in a range of superclutch situations in their 12-year primes in the postseason:
Image

PS: "tl" stands for "to tie or lead" in those 0-1sec scenarios

And in all this nonsense let's not forget that this ridiculous clutch stuff only became a thing around 2009 when LeBron got clearly better than Kobe and ESPN guys and Kobe fans rolled out the "yeah,but, who would you rather have in the last second with the ball in his hands when the game is on the line?".
Nobody ever even checked clutch stats until some reasonable people had enough after hearing this nonsense for months (years?) and did it sometime in 2009 to 2011.

It's still as stupid as it was back then. And let's not forget: statistically a large fraction of "clutch situations" LeBron was in would have been "already lost situations" if Kobe had played instead of him.


You're going to have to explain those graphs better to me, what exactly are you showing with the data presented in those graphs? shed some light.
Don't let the media fool you that 'Lebron is clutch', truth is here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1651289&start=80#start_here
User avatar
CoffeeCakez
Senior
Posts: 712
And1: 567
Joined: May 09, 2016
   

Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#179 » by CoffeeCakez » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:43 am

post the graph picture with a detailed description underneath separately and avoid quoting all of the previous posts, it makes it annoying to scroll through

thanks
Don't let the media fool you that 'Lebron is clutch', truth is here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1651289&start=80#start_here
User avatar
-Sammy-
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 10,181
And1: 22,278
Joined: Sep 03, 2014
Location: Back at Frontier Burger
     

Re: Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats 

Post#180 » by -Sammy- » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:56 pm

Revisiting this thread after several days is intriguing and humorous for me. It should be obvious to all impartial observers by now that the true point of the thread is part of a larger campaign with a singular agenda: to discredit LeBron and champion Kobe as the superior player at all costs. Make no mistake that this and this alone is the real issue here (and elsewhere where similar antics can be observed).

For heaven's sake, they gave themselves a group name: the 'gang of 27.' :roll: They've adopted matching signatures because it's very important to them that you look at their data and their data alone and come to the same conclusion they do. This matters to them-- your opinion about LeBron and how Kobe compares to him is of great importance to them.

A review of the facts:

The heralded data is cherry-picked. The 27-gang assumes an arbitrary stretch of time and an arbitrary point-spread and demands that this and this alone be the metric for comparing LeBron with Kobe. Not only do they not want to address anything that falls outside these capricious parameters, but they also won't accept your cherry-picked data if it yields different implications.

A few pages back, I saw one of our 27ers reject someone else's cherry-picked data because he claimed the sample size is too small! In other words, 'we'll decide what constitutes a fair sample size, not you.'

Good enough, 27-boyz; how about this for an adequate sample size?:

LeBron: 1353-of-2849, .574 TS%, 28.4 ppg
Kobe: 2014-of-4499, .541 TS%, 25.6ppg

That's the total number of field goals and attempts for both guys in the playoffs, along with TS percentage and scoring average. Is that a large enough sample size for you? It ought to be, as you literally can't produce a larger one, since that's every single field goal make and attempt each guy has ever had in the postseason. Hell, if you want to make it sound more like yours, it can be 'offense in the last 48 minutes of a game with a +/- of X points'.

'No', they'll reply, 'that's too broad; this is about a specific clip of time and point-spread'... in other words, a large sample size is bad and a small sample size is also bad; only this one insanely-specific swath of data will be permitted-- it has to be just right (maybe they should change their name to the 'gang of Goldilocks'). Of course, the rest of us know that the real reason this approach is being insisted on is because the real agenda here is to discredit LeBron.

They're inconsistent in their discourse. Multiple times throughout this thread, I've seen the 'gang' jump on a poster for writing something that doesn't have anything to do with the topic. 'This is about the specific conditions we laid out in the OP', they've said; 'don't mess up our thread by bringing things up that don't have anything to do with those conditions.'

That would be fine, except that those 27ers-- the same ones, mind you, who told you not to derail their thread-- have made numerous comments in these pages about 'the decision' and how 'five beats three' and the game the other night against the Warriors... you know, stuff that also doesn't have anything to do with their thread topic. They're evidently free to tangentialize, but you better not.

It becomes a lot easier to understand the motivation behind this selective discourse once we recognize the common idea in those tangents, which also happens to be the real objective of the 27-gang: to discredit LeBron.

They cherry-pick what they respond to. I'm a little disappointed that my last post here was never addressed by any of the 27 guys; it was thoughtful, thorough, and it made some great points, and I even submitted it as a reply to one of their posts, so I know they must've seen it. However, it also pointed out an obvious agenda through behavioral analysis and it laid to rest this silly notion of arbitrarily calling one part of the game clutch and another part meaningless, so I can see why it was ignored: because acknowledging those realities weakens the mission of discrediting LeBron.

So let's take a look at what's really going on here: there's a minority contingent of basketball fans who specifically are Kobe fans who are low-key furious that the 'LeBron or Kobe?' issue was settled a long time with the vast majority of fans coming down on the side of the former. They've always resented LeBron because they've always believed that their guy should've been the recipient of all the attention and admiration LeBron's always gotten.

Recognize that I'm not calling out anyone specific in this thread in the sense of accusing people of being part of that minority group; I'm simply describing a pattern of behavior. I'll leave it to others to analyze peoples' actions and decide for themselves who fits that description. Recognize also that I'm not talking about the overwhelming majority of Laker/Kobe fans, who are amazing fans and who are a great asset to NBA fandom as a whole, but only of that tiny, extreme faction that nevertheless rattles the cage pretty loudly and that unfortunately makes the real Laker fanbase look bad far too often.

Finally, recognize the truth, which is that LeBron and Kobe are/were both gods and titans on the basketball court and that whichever guy you prefer, you've made an excellent choice and your guy is a legend and an all-timer.

Perhaps the most mystifying part of this saga is that most of the people in this minority contingent are yet lucid enough to realize that they're never going to alter the narrative or change anyone's mind, but that isn't really their goal anyhow. This crusade is more about collectively steeling themselves, giving themselves a foundation by which they can convince each other that the overwhelming majority of people are stupid and wrong and that they alone know the truth.
Image

Return to Player Comparisons