NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses

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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#161 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:29 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:You can’t be like “uhhh no” and post Kareem scoring more points more efficiently like it’s a nail in the coffin lol


If can't tell the difference (in orders of magnitude) between the average defense Wilt faced (45% of games vs Elite + ATG defenses faced) vs. Kareem (14%)...you're hopeless.

Here's 70's Fan's OP Data:

Bill Russell (11.0% of playoffs games): 42.8 mpg, 26.2 rpg, 3.8 apg, 16.4 ppg on 42.7% FG, 60.9% FT, 45.4% TS (-1.90 rTS%)

Wilt Chamberlain (52.50% of playoffs games): 47.5 mpg, 28.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, 28.1 ppg on 50.8% FG, 50.6% FT, 52.2% TS (+3.84 rTS%)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (26.60% of playoffs games): 44.1 mpg, 15.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 33.3 ppg on 54.5% FG, 72.2% FT, 56.9% TS (+5.28 rTS%)

Moses Malone (14.29% of playoffs games): 40.5 mpg, 13.7 rpg,2.1 apg, 1.9 tov, 27.0 ppg on 48.7% FG, 81.9% FT and 55.5% TS (+1.79% rTS)

Shaquille O'Neal (30.38% of playoffs games): 41.1 mpg, 13.3 rpg, 2.9 apg, 3.3 tov, 26.9 ppg on 55.8% FG, 53.5% FT and 56.9% TS (+4.59% rTS)

Hakeem Olajuwon (15.45% of playoffs games): 42.0 mpg, 10.2 rpg, 3.1 apg, 3.4 tov, 24.1 ppg on 48.9% FG, 75.2% FT and 53.9% TS (+0.30% rTS)

David Robinson (0.00% of playoffs games):--

Artis Gilmore (5.13% of playoffs games): 45.3 mpg, 18.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3.5 tov, 15.3 ppg on 44.3% FG, 36.8% FT and 44.0% TS (-6.93% rTS)

Patrick Ewing (21.70% of playoffs games): 40.7 mpg, 11.3 rpg, 1.7 apg, 3.0 tov, 22.9 ppg on 43.7% FG, 80.0% FT and 49.0% TS (-4.48% rTS)

Go back and read the OP and look at the percentages for all the players. You'll see that nobody faced defenses like Wilt did. Not even close.



Today I learned wilt played the Celtics a lot lol

Frequency is a weird argument when we have the data of those matchups lmao
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#162 » by ty 4191 » Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:39 pm

70sFan wrote:I'd need to see some evidence that Kareem's overall impact wasn't higher than Wilt's. It could be helpful if someone would provide some RAPM data for both, but they don't exist unfortunately. More footage of prime Wilt would also help, it's possible that I underestimate his off-ball game or that his defense was even more absurd than I evaluate it.


I wonder, then, how much footage exists, and where is it? Do you have any idea?

70sFan wrote:Even now, I see a case for Wilt over Kareem. I have their peaks very close and primes are also quite comparable. To pick Wilt clearly ahead him though, I'd need more evidences of his superiority, because he doesn't have Jabbar longevity.

What about you? What would you change your mind?


Thanks for asking. Off the top of my head....

1. I would have to see evidence that the ABA didn't significantly weaken the quality of the NBA from 1967-1976.

2. I would need to watch a ton more of Jabaar's absolute prime. I saw him a ton after 1984, and have watched a lot of footage of the 1980's Series (esp the Finals) on YouTube. But very few full games from the mid to late 70's, admittedly. Any all time great games you have of his would be a huge help!

3. I would need a Kareem Scholar, like yourself, to explain through an analysis of both skill set and advanced data, to explain how KAJ was more valuable and skilled than Wilt.

4. I would need countering evidence about the strength of competition they faced, which counters everything I've seen and studied myself. All of which, so far, leans towards Wilt facing tougher defenses and teams, in general, both RS and playoffs.

Even now, just since joining this board, I've moved both Magic and Kareem significantly up in my all time rankings. Because of the erudition of people like yourself. :D You really are a die-hard historian and fan, but you talk like an Insider/GM in terms of nuance and sophistication.
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#163 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:42 am

ty 4191 wrote:I wonder, then, how much footage exists, and where is it? Do you have any idea?

I don't know how much footage the NBA has in their archives, it's probably much more than anything we have seen.

I think that my collection of Wilt/1970s Kareem games is the biggest one available online. You can watch all of them on my Patreon, but if you want to see some of them, I can just post them here.
Thanks for asking. Off the top of my head....

1. I would have to see evidence that the ABA didn't significantly weaken the quality of the NBA from 1967-1976.

The problem with that is that Wilt also played during that period, so it hurts half of his career as well. Don't forget that Kareem played 13 seasons after the merger.

2. I would need to watch a ton more of Jabaar's absolute prime. I saw him a ton after 1984, and have watched a lot of footage of the 1980's Series (esp the Finals) on YouTube. But very few full games from the mid to late 70's, admittedly. Any all time great games you have of his would be a huge help!

Sure, here are some of the most notable ones:

Spoiler:


4. I would need countering evidence about the strength of competition they faced, which counters everything I've seen and studied myself. All of which, so far, leans towards Wilt facing tougher defenses and teams, in general, both RS and playoffs.

You have to keep in mind that even though Wilt faced strong defensive teams more frequently, Kareem played significantly more postseason games overall. That means even though Wilt on average faced tougher defensive competition, Kareem played similar number of games against them, because he played more games period.

It's not like Kareem didn't have a lot of series against top tier defenses: 1970 Knicks, 1972 Lakers, 1974 Bulls and Celtics, 1977 Blazers, 1978-79 Sonics, whole 1980 run 1984-85 Celtics... Kareem faced as various set of defensive rosters as any player in the league history.

Even now, just since joining this board, I've moved both Magic and Kareem significantly up in my all time rankings. Because of the erudition of people like yourself. :D You really are a die-hard historian and fan, but you talk like an Insider/GM in terms of nuance and sophistication.

Thank you, I wouldn't go that far. I just want to look at these players as objectively as possible. It's wrong to think that I prefer Kareem over Wilt in terms of my personal preferences, I like them on equal level. I also don't really like someone like LeBron, but it's likely that he'll finish 1st on my GOAT list after this season.
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#164 » by ty 4191 » Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:11 pm

70sFan wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:I wonder, then, how much footage exists, and where is it? Do you have any idea?

I don't know how much footage the NBA has in their archives, it's probably much more than anything we have seen.

I think that my collection of Wilt/1970s Kareem games is the biggest one available online. You can watch all of them on my Patreon, but if you want to see some of them, I can just post them here.
Thanks for asking. Off the top of my head....

1. I would have to see evidence that the ABA didn't significantly weaken the quality of the NBA from 1967-1976.

The problem with that is that Wilt also played during that period, so it hurts half of his career as well. Don't forget that Kareem played 13 seasons after the merger.

2. I would need to watch a ton more of Jabaar's absolute prime. I saw him a ton after 1984, and have watched a lot of footage of the 1980's Series (esp the Finals) on YouTube. But very few full games from the mid to late 70's, admittedly. Any all time great games you have of his would be a huge help!

Sure, here are some of the most notable ones:

Spoiler:


4. I would need countering evidence about the strength of competition they faced, which counters everything I've seen and studied myself. All of which, so far, leans towards Wilt facing tougher defenses and teams, in general, both RS and playoffs.

You have to keep in mind that even though Wilt faced strong defensive teams more frequently, Kareem played significantly more postseason games overall. That means even though Wilt on average faced tougher defensive competition, Kareem played similar number of games against them, because he played more games period.

It's not like Kareem didn't have a lot of series against top tier defenses: 1970 Knicks, 1972 Lakers, 1974 Bulls and Celtics, 1977 Blazers, 1978-79 Sonics, whole 1980 run 1984-85 Celtics... Kareem faced as various set of defensive rosters as any player in the league history.

Even now, just since joining this board, I've moved both Magic and Kareem significantly up in my all time rankings. Because of the erudition of people like yourself. :D You really are a die-hard historian and fan, but you talk like an Insider/GM in terms of nuance and sophistication.


Thank you, I wouldn't go that far. I just want to look at these players as objectively as possible. It's wrong to think that I prefer Kareem over Wilt in terms of my personal preferences, I like them on equal level. I also don't really like someone like LeBron, but it's likely that he'll finish 1st on my GOAT list after this season.


Thank you so much for taking the time to post everything, especially the links!!!!! So very much appreciated!! :D

Just curious, why will LeBron be your GOAT after this season? Especially above Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Wilt?
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#165 » by 70sFan » Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:14 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:I wonder, then, how much footage exists, and where is it? Do you have any idea?

I don't know how much footage the NBA has in their archives, it's probably much more than anything we have seen.

I think that my collection of Wilt/1970s Kareem games is the biggest one available online. You can watch all of them on my Patreon, but if you want to see some of them, I can just post them here.
Thanks for asking. Off the top of my head....

1. I would have to see evidence that the ABA didn't significantly weaken the quality of the NBA from 1967-1976.

The problem with that is that Wilt also played during that period, so it hurts half of his career as well. Don't forget that Kareem played 13 seasons after the merger.

2. I would need to watch a ton more of Jabaar's absolute prime. I saw him a ton after 1984, and have watched a lot of footage of the 1980's Series (esp the Finals) on YouTube. But very few full games from the mid to late 70's, admittedly. Any all time great games you have of his would be a huge help!

Sure, here are some of the most notable ones:

Spoiler:


4. I would need countering evidence about the strength of competition they faced, which counters everything I've seen and studied myself. All of which, so far, leans towards Wilt facing tougher defenses and teams, in general, both RS and playoffs.

You have to keep in mind that even though Wilt faced strong defensive teams more frequently, Kareem played significantly more postseason games overall. That means even though Wilt on average faced tougher defensive competition, Kareem played similar number of games against them, because he played more games period.

It's not like Kareem didn't have a lot of series against top tier defenses: 1970 Knicks, 1972 Lakers, 1974 Bulls and Celtics, 1977 Blazers, 1978-79 Sonics, whole 1980 run 1984-85 Celtics... Kareem faced as various set of defensive rosters as any player in the league history.

Even now, just since joining this board, I've moved both Magic and Kareem significantly up in my all time rankings. Because of the erudition of people like yourself. :D You really are a die-hard historian and fan, but you talk like an Insider/GM in terms of nuance and sophistication.


Thank you, I wouldn't go that far. I just want to look at these players as objectively as possible. It's wrong to think that I prefer Kareem over Wilt in terms of my personal preferences, I like them on equal level. I also don't really like someone like LeBron, but it's likely that he'll finish 1st on my GOAT list after this season.


Thank you so much for taking the time to post everything, especially the links!!!!! So very much appreciated!! :D

Just curious, why will LeBron be your GOAT after this season? Especially above Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Wilt?

Because of the length and strength of his prime. I have to say that I'm not very impressed with his season right now in absolute terms (relative to his age, he's great).
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#166 » by OhayoKD » Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:50 am

ty 4191 wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:You can’t be like “uhhh no” and post Kareem scoring more points more efficiently like it’s a nail in the coffin lol


If can't tell the difference (in orders of magnitude) between the average defense Wilt faced (45% of games vs Elite + ATG defenses faced) vs. Kareem (14%)...you're hopeless.

Go back and read the OP and look at the percentages for all the players. You'll see that nobody faced defenses like Wilt did. Not even close.

"Wilt > Kareem" is not a logical extrapolation from "Wilt faced tougher defense than Kareem". Facing more adverse conditions doesn't make a player better itself.
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#167 » by ty 4191 » Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:24 pm

OhayoKD wrote:"Wilt > Kareem" is not a logical extrapolation from "Wilt faced tougher defense than Kareem". Facing more adverse conditions doesn't make a player better itself.


A researcher/analyst friend of mine sent me this, which is directly apropos to this entire discussion:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PBH_Sb6IywvCQ8LDLtka4jOzuLdYRKIsvrjIyN67knM/edit#gid=0

Thoughts, everyone?
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#168 » by OhayoKD » Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:30 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:"Wilt > Kareem" is not a logical extrapolation from "Wilt faced tougher defense than Kareem". Facing more adverse conditions doesn't make a player better itself.


A researcher/analyst friend of mine sent me this, which is directly apropos to this entire discussion:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PBH_Sb6IywvCQ8LDLtka4jOzuLdYRKIsvrjIyN67knM/edit#gid=0

Thoughts, everyone?

Shouldn't wilt's "average defense faced" score be a lot higher?
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#169 » by ty 4191 » Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:44 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:"Wilt > Kareem" is not a logical extrapolation from "Wilt faced tougher defense than Kareem". Facing more adverse conditions doesn't make a player better itself.


A researcher/analyst friend of mine sent me this, which is directly apropos to this entire discussion:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PBH_Sb6IywvCQ8LDLtka4jOzuLdYRKIsvrjIyN67knM/edit#gid=0

Thoughts, everyone?

Shouldn't wilt's "average defense faced" score be a lot higher?


Perhaps?

It's still 22% ahead of KG, all time, which is fairly staggering.
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#170 » by OhayoKD » Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:58 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
A researcher/analyst friend of mine sent me this, which is directly apropos to this entire discussion:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PBH_Sb6IywvCQ8LDLtka4jOzuLdYRKIsvrjIyN67knM/edit#gid=0

Thoughts, everyone?

Shouldn't wilt's "average defense faced" score be a lot higher?


Perhaps?

It's still 22% ahead of KG, all time, which is fairly staggering.

oh i was looking at the 4 year stretches
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#171 » by ty 4191 » Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:24 am

70sFan wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:I wonder, then, how much footage exists, and where is it? Do you have any idea?

I don't know how much footage the NBA has in their archives, it's probably much more than anything we have seen.


70's Fan: My private messages aren't going through, apparently. Do you have a link or a spreadsheet with your complete defensive data based on dNrtg?

Thank you!

PS: Here's mine, for Overall Net Rating for superstars playoffs opponents:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wMi7Spb6ypHAonfIt0XidIFX6kZAkokQSit_vrPtpcU/edit#gid=0
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#172 » by ty 4191 » Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:25 am

OhayoKD wrote:oh i was looking at the 4 year stretches


If he used 1960-1965 or 1961-1966, Wilt's would probably be on par with anyone's 5 year peak in terms of opposition defenses faced.
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#173 » by 70sFan » Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:03 am

ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:I wonder, then, how much footage exists, and where is it? Do you have any idea?

I don't know how much footage the NBA has in their archives, it's probably much more than anything we have seen.


70's Fan: My private messages aren't going through, apparently. Do you have a link or a spreadsheet with your complete defensive data based on dNrtg?

Thank you!

PS: Here's mine, for Overall Net Rating for superstars playoffs opponents:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wMi7Spb6ypHAonfIt0XidIFX6kZAkokQSit_vrPtpcU/edit#gid=0

Sorry, my spreadsheet isn't available online. I will try to upload it when I find more time.

Great work with your one by the way, it will be very helpful in the future!
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#174 » by ty 4191 » Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:05 pm

70sFan wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:I don't know how much footage the NBA has in their archives, it's probably much more than anything we have seen.


70's Fan: My private messages aren't going through, apparently. Do you have a link or a spreadsheet with your complete defensive data based on dNrtg?

Thank you!

PS: Here's mine, for Overall Net Rating for superstars playoffs opponents:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wMi7Spb6ypHAonfIt0XidIFX6kZAkokQSit_vrPtpcU/edit#gid=0

Sorry, my spreadsheet isn't available online. I will try to upload it when I find more time.

Great work with your one by the way, it will be very helpful in the future!


Thank you in advance for uploading it. Very much appreciated!

And, thank you for the kudos. You know how many hours this takes! :)
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#175 » by ty 4191 » Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:42 am

70sFan wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:I don't know how much footage the NBA has in their archives, it's probably much more than anything we have seen.


70's Fan: My private messages aren't going through, apparently. Do you have a link or a spreadsheet with your complete defensive data based on dNrtg?

Thank you!

PS: Here's mine, for Overall Net Rating for superstars playoffs opponents:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wMi7Spb6ypHAonfIt0XidIFX6kZAkokQSit_vrPtpcU/edit#gid=0

Sorry, my spreadsheet isn't available online. I will try to upload it when I find more time.

Great work with your one by the way, it will be very helpful in the future!


Hi 70'sFan! Do you have that spreadsheet to share?

Thanks so much! Greatly appreciated! :D
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#176 » by ty 4191 » Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:44 am

Bump this up.
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Re: NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses 

Post#178 » by ty 4191 » Sat May 25, 2024 3:27 pm

Bump this masterpiece of a project up! :)

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