Replace Lebron with Peak Kawhi on the 2009 & 2010 Cavs

[Ainosterhaspie]

The Raptors are such a perfect squad for 09 James. Gasol/Siakam/Green/Lowry all great defenders all competent or better three point shooters. Then you've got FVV and Powell as additional spacing options. They would have cruised through these playoffs.

I'm not sure that James ever played with a squad that fit him as well as that squad would have. 2016 Cavs is probably closest, but I'd rather have Gasol than Love and Siakam than Thompson. Smith and Green is about the same. Lowry is a downgrade offensively but an upgrade defensively over Irving. FVV is better than Dellavadova. Raptors would give LeBron better spacing and better defense than Cavs did.

The Raptors support is much better both in terms of talent and fit than the 09 Cavs were and James took that team to 66 wins and barely lost to the conference champs primarily because they couldn't defend the interior. Gasol fixes that hole. 09 LeBron with less spacing than the Raptors would give him scored at will against the league's best defense.

Completely disagree with this. While Kawhi on the Cavs makes them much worse, Lebron on the 2019 Raptors probably loses in the second round to the Sixers.

Lebron's one flaw is that his talent is so complete and transcedent from a young age that all his teams end up being all about him doing everything, he's the primary playmaker and scorer, he's the offense. The problem with this is you'll not get the best out of playmakers when pairing them with Lebron, guys like Lowry or even FVV will be somewhat marginalized, Siakam probably doesn't even have his big breakthrough so quickly because it's all about Lebron.

Kawhi is different in the sense that he's more of a super role player on offense, he's dominant scoring the ball but he doesn't really monopolize the offense and mixes perfectly with someone like Lowry who's at his best as the primary ballhandler/playmaker and other guys who can create. He can get the bulk of his 30 points spotting up, ISOing off broken plays. He'll struggle in a team that needs a guy to do it all offensively (like the 2009 and 2010 Cavs), but he mixes up perfectly with other playmakers as he won't 'get in their lane'.

The problem with Lebron on the Raptors roster is the offense would end up revolving around him completely. It's the curse of being too talented perhaps; Lebron is so good at every facet of the game that you can't really justify enabling Lowry, Siakam, Gasol, etc... strengths on your offense instead of letting Lebron dominate even if it'd be better for the team (not because those players are better at their strong points than Lebron, but because they're more limited and can only excel in those particular roles, unlike Lebron).

That's why I like his fit with AD on the Lakers. AD is potentially the best off ball player of all-time, certainly up there anyway, so he can play to his full potential even with Lebron dominating the offense.

LeBron’s need to have the ball and inability to play off ball is seriously exaggerated. Irving had a higher usage than he did with the Cavs during the second go. He played within Miami's system. He worked really well off ball next to Wade who was a good playmaker and he's done similar with other decent playmakers as well. There are plenty of examples in his career where he's done this.

There are also times where he's been very ball dominant, usually for reasons that had nothing to do with him. Like in 2015 where the best talent was injured, no one but him could make a play and they needed to slow the game to have a chance. LeBron running everything isn't ideal, but it's a very useful failsafe.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Great, Kareem was the best player in postseason in 1971, 1974, 1977, 1979 and 1980. Along with 1970 if you count 2017 (which is debatable at best). That gives him 6 postseaons better than Kawhi's second best. I won't even talk about James in 2017, who was at least as good as Kawhi in playoffs.

Leonard has two years that were comparable to Kareem post merger and we have only seen him play until 27 years old at this point.

Until 27 years old, Kareem already had 3 postseasons better than Kawhi's 2017.

Kareem also had two clearly better postseasons post-merger than Kawhi's best. He was far better defender, better scorer, better passer, better rebounder. Kawhi has no case over 1977 and 1980 Kareem.

Kawhi is +12 TS in 2017 and Kareem is only +8 in 1980. The offensive talent in 2017 was also better and harder to defend, so I think the gap is even bigger on efficiency. You have to remember, part of the reason for the decrease in efficiency during Kareems era was because less offensive talent in the league and not necessarily because better defense was being played. The game has advanced skills in offense across the league than it did back in kareem's era. Still, kawhi is more efficient scorer.

Duncan vs Kobe is like kawhi vs Kareem

You favor the wing players on offense over the bigs, that's just how the game is. Duncan overall is better than Kobe because the defensive gap is still too big for Kobe to make up. However, Kawhi is much closer defensively to Kareem and makes up the gap of being the overall better player.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

The Raptors are such a perfect squad for 09 James. Gasol/Siakam/Green/Lowry all great defenders all competent or better three point shooters. Then you've got FVV and Powell as additional spacing options. They would have cruised through these playoffs.

I'm not sure that James ever played with a squad that fit him as well as that squad would have. 2016 Cavs is probably closest, but I'd rather have Gasol than Love and Siakam than Thompson. Smith and Green is about the same. Lowry is a downgrade offensively but an upgrade defensively over Irving. FVV is better than Dellavadova. Raptors would give LeBron better spacing and better defense than Cavs did.

The Raptors support is much better both in terms of talent and fit than the 09 Cavs were and James took that team to 66 wins and barely lost to the conference champs primarily because they couldn't defend the interior. Gasol fixes that hole. 09 LeBron with less spacing than the Raptors would give him scored at will against the league's best defense.

Completely disagree with this. While Kawhi on the Cavs makes them much worse, Lebron on the 2019 Raptors probably loses in the second round to the Sixers.

Lebron's one flaw is that his talent is so complete and transcedent from a young age that all his teams end up being all about him doing everything, he's the primary playmaker and scorer, he's the offense. The problem with this is you'll not get the best out of playmakers when pairing them with Lebron, guys like Lowry or even FVV will be somewhat marginalized, Siakam probably doesn't even have his big breakthrough so quickly because it's all about Lebron.

Kawhi is different in the sense that he's more of a super role player on offense, he's dominant scoring the ball but he doesn't really monopolize the offense and mixes perfectly with someone like Lowry who's at his best as the primary ballhandler/playmaker and other guys who can create. He can get the bulk of his 30 points spotting up, ISOing off broken plays. He'll struggle in a team that needs a guy to do it all offensively (like the 2009 and 2010 Cavs), but he mixes up perfectly with other playmakers as he won't 'get in their lane'.

The problem with Lebron on the Raptors roster is the offense would end up revolving around him completely. It's the curse of being too talented perhaps; Lebron is so good at every facet of the game that you can't really justify enabling Lowry, Siakam, Gasol, etc... strengths on your offense instead of letting Lebron dominate even if it'd be better for the team (not because those players are better at their strong points than Lebron, but because they're more limited and can only excel in those particular roles, unlike Lebron).

That's why I like his fit with AD on the Lakers. AD is potentially the best off ball player of all-time, certainly up there anyway, so he can play to his full potential even with Lebron dominating the offense.

You hit it right out of the park, LeBron monopolized every offense he has been apart of. Kawhi doesn't do this and lets his teammates do their own thing more. Its what makes you feel comfortable plugging Kawhi on a variety of different rosters, while LeBron its pretty limited. Its probably why Irving didn't want to play with him and why love/bosh got worse with him. This factor is what makes Kawhi a better offensive player. LeBron just runs too much 1 on 5 offense crap, kind of like a bigger version of Harden.

[KTM_2813]

You hit it right out of the park, LeBron monopolized every offense he has been apart of. Kawhi doesn't do this and lets his teammates do their own thing more. Its what makes you feel comfortable plugging Kawhi on a variety of different rosters, while LeBron its pretty limited. Its probably why Irving didn't want to play with him and why love/bosh got worse with him. This factor is what makes Kawhi a better offensive player. LeBron just runs too much 1 on 5 offense crap, kind of like a bigger version of Harden.

This kind of thing is just disingenuous. At a minimum, LeBron did not monopolize the 2013 Heat's offense, which was such an amazing brand of team basketball that Zach Lowe literally said they'd "mastered NBA offense". There have been many other stretches of his career where he played a more off-ball role as well. We can debate subjective stuff all day, but this post is objectively false.

[DatAsh]

I really don’t get this thread.

You’re replacing an arguably GOAT offensive player in a perfect fit with a top 5 offensive player in any given year and in a horrible fit.

You’re replacing a DPOY caliber defender with an average to slightly above average defender.

Andy you expect them to get better? Really?

Could it be more clear cut than this?

[toodles23]

Has there ever been a more obvious sock account in human history than Bringyourgame?

This thread is a mess.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Has there ever been a more obvious sock account in human history than Bringyourgame?

This thread is a mess.

That ain't my account man. He said David Robinson is top 5 alltime and i wouldn't be caught dead saying that. I do like his views on Kawhi though.

[Joey Wheeler]

The Raptors are such a perfect squad for 09 James. Gasol/Siakam/Green/Lowry all great defenders all competent or better three point shooters. Then you've got FVV and Powell as additional spacing options. They would have cruised through these playoffs.

I'm not sure that James ever played with a squad that fit him as well as that squad would have. 2016 Cavs is probably closest, but I'd rather have Gasol than Love and Siakam than Thompson. Smith and Green is about the same. Lowry is a downgrade offensively but an upgrade defensively over Irving. FVV is better than Dellavadova. Raptors would give LeBron better spacing and better defense than Cavs did.

The Raptors support is much better both in terms of talent and fit than the 09 Cavs were and James took that team to 66 wins and barely lost to the conference champs primarily because they couldn't defend the interior. Gasol fixes that hole. 09 LeBron with less spacing than the Raptors would give him scored at will against the league's best defense.

Completely disagree with this. While Kawhi on the Cavs makes them much worse, Lebron on the 2019 Raptors probably loses in the second round to the Sixers.

Lebron's one flaw is that his talent is so complete and transcedent from a young age that all his teams end up being all about him doing everything, he's the primary playmaker and scorer, he's the offense. The problem with this is you'll not get the best out of playmakers when pairing them with Lebron, guys like Lowry or even FVV will be somewhat marginalized, Siakam probably doesn't even have his big breakthrough so quickly because it's all about Lebron.

Kawhi is different in the sense that he's more of a super role player on offense, he's dominant scoring the ball but he doesn't really monopolize the offense and mixes perfectly with someone like Lowry who's at his best as the primary ballhandler/playmaker and other guys who can create. He can get the bulk of his 30 points spotting up, ISOing off broken plays. He'll struggle in a team that needs a guy to do it all offensively (like the 2009 and 2010 Cavs), but he mixes up perfectly with other playmakers as he won't 'get in their lane'.

The problem with Lebron on the Raptors roster is the offense would end up revolving around him completely. It's the curse of being too talented perhaps; Lebron is so good at every facet of the game that you can't really justify enabling Lowry, Siakam, Gasol, etc... strengths on your offense instead of letting Lebron dominate even if it'd be better for the team (not because those players are better at their strong points than Lebron, but because they're more limited and can only excel in those particular roles, unlike Lebron).

That's why I like his fit with AD on the Lakers. AD is potentially the best off ball player of all-time, certainly up there anyway, so he can play to his full potential even with Lebron dominating the offense.

LeBron’s need to have the ball and inability to play off ball is seriously exaggerated. Irving had a higher usage than he did with the Cavs during the second go. He played within Miami's system. He worked really well off ball next to Wade who was a good playmaker and he's done similar with other decent playmakers as well. There are plenty of examples in his career where he's done this.

There are also times where he's been very ball dominant, usually for reasons that had nothing to do with him. Like in 2015 where the best talent was injured, no one but him could make a play and they needed to slow the game to have a chance. LeBron running everything isn't ideal, but it's a very useful failsafe.

Lebron doesn't need to have the ball all the time, nor is he unable to play off the ball. But his teams always end up with him controlling everything. It's more ingrained habit and being too talented than inability; he has always controlled his team's play since he was a kid and he's so talented that he can be successful like that so he can't really be convinced to take on a smaller role; when you're good enough to do everything, it's only natural that you want to do everything! Kyrie is a good running mate for him because he's basically just a scorer, having Lebron control the offense and Kyrie as a play finisher is a good fit for him. As for Wade and Lebron, the talent was overwhelming enough that they could still win, but the fit clearly wasn't perfect, we never saw both of them play to their full potential at the same time.

Lebron is probably the best talent in the history of the NBA, but he's not someone who'll make everyone around him thrive and be able to make his huge impact while letting others play their game. He's not a guy you plug in to a team and he'll simply add to what they have, he'll replace what they have. Kawhi's scoring ability on offense complemented Lowry's primary playmaking, Gasol's ability to create from the post, Siakam... if you introduce Lebron instead you can't assume his talent will simply be added to what the Raptors already have, he'll take over the offense and those other players will be cast into smaller roles where they can't really play to their full potential. Lebron is so great that it might still be enough to win, granted, but it's clearly not as good a fit.

[Joey Wheeler]

The Raptors are such a perfect squad for 09 James. Gasol/Siakam/Green/Lowry all great defenders all competent or better three point shooters. Then you've got FVV and Powell as additional spacing options. They would have cruised through these playoffs.

I'm not sure that James ever played with a squad that fit him as well as that squad would have. 2016 Cavs is probably closest, but I'd rather have Gasol than Love and Siakam than Thompson. Smith and Green is about the same. Lowry is a downgrade offensively but an upgrade defensively over Irving. FVV is better than Dellavadova. Raptors would give LeBron better spacing and better defense than Cavs did.

The Raptors support is much better both in terms of talent and fit than the 09 Cavs were and James took that team to 66 wins and barely lost to the conference champs primarily because they couldn't defend the interior. Gasol fixes that hole. 09 LeBron with less spacing than the Raptors would give him scored at will against the league's best defense.

Completely disagree with this. While Kawhi on the Cavs makes them much worse, Lebron on the 2019 Raptors probably loses in the second round to the Sixers.

Lebron's one flaw is that his talent is so complete and transcedent from a young age that all his teams end up being all about him doing everything, he's the primary playmaker and scorer, he's the offense. The problem with this is you'll not get the best out of playmakers when pairing them with Lebron, guys like Lowry or even FVV will be somewhat marginalized, Siakam probably doesn't even have his big breakthrough so quickly because it's all about Lebron.

Kawhi is different in the sense that he's more of a super role player on offense, he's dominant scoring the ball but he doesn't really monopolize the offense and mixes perfectly with someone like Lowry who's at his best as the primary ballhandler/playmaker and other guys who can create. He can get the bulk of his 30 points spotting up, ISOing off broken plays. He'll struggle in a team that needs a guy to do it all offensively (like the 2009 and 2010 Cavs), but he mixes up perfectly with other playmakers as he won't 'get in their lane'.

The problem with Lebron on the Raptors roster is the offense would end up revolving around him completely. It's the curse of being too talented perhaps; Lebron is so good at every facet of the game that you can't really justify enabling Lowry, Siakam, Gasol, etc... strengths on your offense instead of letting Lebron dominate even if it'd be better for the team (not because those players are better at their strong points than Lebron, but because they're more limited and can only excel in those particular roles, unlike Lebron).

That's why I like his fit with AD on the Lakers. AD is potentially the best off ball player of all-time, certainly up there anyway, so he can play to his full potential even with Lebron dominating the offense.

You hit it right out of the park, LeBron monopolized every offense he has been apart of. Kawhi doesn't do this and lets his teammates do their own thing more. Its what makes you feel comfortable plugging Kawhi on a variety of different rosters, while LeBron its pretty limited. Its probably why Irving didn't want to play with him and why love/bosh got worse with him. This factor is what makes Kawhi a better offensive player. LeBron just runs too much 1 on 5 offense crap, kind of like a bigger version of Harden.

I didn't say that... Lebron is still a significantly superior offensive player all things considered.

Kawhi is just a better option from a plug and play perspective; if you have a good team like the Raptors, you can add Kawhi to complement it and put you over the top. I'm afraid you can't do that with Lebron; if you take Lebron on you're looking at rebooting your franchise and build your team around him.

Raptors 2019 were same old Raptors with the addition of Kawhi; if it had been Lebron joining, they'd have become Lebron's team. It's complete fantasy land to think Lebron was just going to complement what the Raptors already had going on and put them over the top like Kawhi did.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Completely disagree with this. While Kawhi on the Cavs makes them much worse, Lebron on the 2019 Raptors probably loses in the second round to the Sixers.

Lebron's one flaw is that his talent is so complete and transcedent from a young age that all his teams end up being all about him doing everything, he's the primary playmaker and scorer, he's the offense. The problem with this is you'll not get the best out of playmakers when pairing them with Lebron, guys like Lowry or even FVV will be somewhat marginalized, Siakam probably doesn't even have his big breakthrough so quickly because it's all about Lebron.

Kawhi is different in the sense that he's more of a super role player on offense, he's dominant scoring the ball but he doesn't really monopolize the offense and mixes perfectly with someone like Lowry who's at his best as the primary ballhandler/playmaker and other guys who can create. He can get the bulk of his 30 points spotting up, ISOing off broken plays. He'll struggle in a team that needs a guy to do it all offensively (like the 2009 and 2010 Cavs), but he mixes up perfectly with other playmakers as he won't 'get in their lane'.

The problem with Lebron on the Raptors roster is the offense would end up revolving around him completely. It's the curse of being too talented perhaps; Lebron is so good at every facet of the game that you can't really justify enabling Lowry, Siakam, Gasol, etc... strengths on your offense instead of letting Lebron dominate even if it'd be better for the team (not because those players are better at their strong points than Lebron, but because they're more limited and can only excel in those particular roles, unlike Lebron).

That's why I like his fit with AD on the Lakers. AD is potentially the best off ball player of all-time, certainly up there anyway, so he can play to his full potential even with Lebron dominating the offense.

You hit it right out of the park, LeBron monopolized every offense he has been apart of. Kawhi doesn't do this and lets his teammates do their own thing more. Its what makes you feel comfortable plugging Kawhi on a variety of different rosters, while LeBron its pretty limited. Its probably why Irving didn't want to play with him and why love/bosh got worse with him. This factor is what makes Kawhi a better offensive player. LeBron just runs too much 1 on 5 offense crap, kind of like a bigger version of Harden.

I didn't say that... Lebron is still a significantly superior offensive player all things considered.

Kawhi is just a better option from a plug and play perspective; if you have a good team like the Raptors, you can add Kawhi to complement it and put you over the top. I'm afraid you can't do that with Lebron; if you take Lebron on you're looking at rebooting your franchise and build your team around him.

Raptors 2019 were same old Raptors with the addition of Kawhi; if it had been Lebron joining, they'd have become Lebron's team. It's complete fantasy land to think Lebron was just going to complement what the Raptors already had going on and put them over the top like Kawhi did.

Kawhi compliments good teams better than LeBron does, we both agreed on that. What I disagree with is that LeBron would be better even on bad teams. We haven't seen Kawhi take 23-25 shots per game on a bad team. I think Kawhi is better on any team because he's the better team player and not a control freak with the offense. The gap on shooting is huge, kawhi shoots 89% and LeBron shoots in the 60s or 70s percentage, scoring wise its Leonard by far because he can carry a bigger load on better efficiency in the playoffs and also because LeBron's title wins hes averaging 26 and 26. Thats when lebron's teams thrive the most is when he's not the clear cut #1 scoring option like cavs 2016. LeBron averaged just 1 more point than Irving and that was his best year team performance wise. Kawhi as a 1st option hasn't lost a playoff series yet 6-0 and was on the roaring beating Durant-Curry and that's something LeBron could never do.

So LeBron is more like a Magic Johnson and Kawhi is Jordan, depends who you think is better.

[homecourtloss]

Has there ever been a more obvious sock account in human history than Bringyourgame?

This thread is a mess.

That ain't my account man. He said David Robinson is top 5 alltime and i wouldn't be caught dead saying that. I do like his views on Kawhi though.

So...someone creates an account TODAY, and posts exclusively IN THIS THREAD on a board that gets very few replies on average per thread, AND he shows the same amount of vim and vigor as HBK_Kliq about Kawhi topics?

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Has there ever been a more obvious sock account in human history than Bringyourgame?

This thread is a mess.

That ain't my account man. He said David Robinson is top 5 alltime and i wouldn't be caught dead saying that. I do like his views on Kawhi though.

So...someone creates an account TODAY, and posts exclusively IN THIS THREAD on a board that gets very few replies on average per thread, AND he shows the same amount of vim and vigor as HBK_Kliq about Kawhi topics?

Ironic I guess but not me. You can disagree with me all you want but that's out of line to call me a liar. You're acting like a tony parker type guy man, relax.

[homecourtloss]

That ain't my account man. He said David Robinson is top 5 alltime and i wouldn't be caught dead saying that. I do like his views on Kawhi though.

So...someone creates an account TODAY, and posts exclusively IN THIS THREAD on a board that gets very few replies on average per thread, AND he shows the same amount of vim and vigor as HBK_Kliq about Kawhi topics?

Ironic I guess but not me. You can disagree with me all you want but that's out of line to call me a liar. You're acting like a tony parker type guy man, relax.

Gotta say—you’re bringing replies and life to these PC board threads.

[Joey Wheeler]

You hit it right out of the park, LeBron monopolized every offense he has been apart of. Kawhi doesn't do this and lets his teammates do their own thing more. Its what makes you feel comfortable plugging Kawhi on a variety of different rosters, while LeBron its pretty limited. Its probably why Irving didn't want to play with him and why love/bosh got worse with him. This factor is what makes Kawhi a better offensive player. LeBron just runs too much 1 on 5 offense crap, kind of like a bigger version of Harden.

I didn't say that... Lebron is still a significantly superior offensive player all things considered.

Kawhi is just a better option from a plug and play perspective; if you have a good team like the Raptors, you can add Kawhi to complement it and put you over the top. I'm afraid you can't do that with Lebron; if you take Lebron on you're looking at rebooting your franchise and build your team around him.

Raptors 2019 were same old Raptors with the addition of Kawhi; if it had been Lebron joining, they'd have become Lebron's team. It's complete fantasy land to think Lebron was just going to complement what the Raptors already had going on and put them over the top like Kawhi did.

Kawhi compliments good teams better than LeBron does, we both agreed on that. What I disagree with is that LeBron would be better even on bad teams. We haven't seen Kawhi take 23-25 shots per game on a bad team. I think Kawhi is better on any team because he's the better team player and not a control freak with the offense. The gap on shooting is huge, kawhi shoots 89% and LeBron shoots in the 60s or 70s percentage, scoring wise its Leonard by far because he can carry a bigger load on better efficiency in the playoffs and also because LeBron's title wins hes averaging 26 and 26. Thats when lebron's teams thrive the most is when he's not the clear cut #1 scoring option like cavs 2016. LeBron averaged just 1 more point than Irving and that was his best year team performance wise. Kawhi as a 1st option hasn't lost a playoff series yet 6-0 and was on the roaring beating Durant-Curry and that's something LeBron could never do.

So LeBron is more like a Magic Johnson and Kawhi is Jordan, depends who you think is better.

Neither of them is anything like Magic, whose defining trait was to extract the most out of everyone around him and dominate with very low usage. I can see Kawhi/Jordan comparison, but Jordan was more athletic and just a bit better at most aspects of the game.

Lebron is a different breed in that he can do absolutely everything on a basketball court. The only comparable player in that regard is Russel Westbrook, but Lebron is bigger, stronger and has a higher basketball IQ. But being able to do everything can be both a blessing and a curse because it's a team sport and having one player actually do everything (even if he's capable of it) isn't ideal. When Westbrook averaged 32/11/10 in RG and 37/12/11 in the playoffs, the Thunder were a really bad team despite Westbrook doing everything. The Lebron conundrum is that in almost every he might be in he'll be the most skilled scorer, the most skilled playmaker, the strongest player, the best rebounder, etc... and the guy with the best motor too, so teams will naturally tend to become overreliant on him.

Kawhi is not a better scorer than Lebron (he's a better shooter though), nor can he "shoulder a bigger load" (that's absurd), he just has a narrower skillset that's easier to fit on good teams. You can't even make hypotheticals about adding Lebron to the Raptors because the Raptors as we knew them would cease to exist if they added Lebron, the team would be dismantled and rebuilt around Lebron. Siakam would probably have been traded, Lowry becomes largely redundant as Lebron will command the offense, Gasol will be reduced to spotting up on offense, etc... it becomes a fundamentally different team to the point where comparisons are just pointless. What happens if Lebron joins x team? That team will become a completely different team so who knows really.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I didn't say that... Lebron is still a significantly superior offensive player all things considered.

Kawhi is just a better option from a plug and play perspective; if you have a good team like the Raptors, you can add Kawhi to complement it and put you over the top. I'm afraid you can't do that with Lebron; if you take Lebron on you're looking at rebooting your franchise and build your team around him.

Raptors 2019 were same old Raptors with the addition of Kawhi; if it had been Lebron joining, they'd have become Lebron's team. It's complete fantasy land to think Lebron was just going to complement what the Raptors already had going on and put them over the top like Kawhi did.

Kawhi compliments good teams better than LeBron does, we both agreed on that. What I disagree with is that LeBron would be better even on bad teams. We haven't seen Kawhi take 23-25 shots per game on a bad team. I think Kawhi is better on any team because he's the better team player and not a control freak with the offense. The gap on shooting is huge, kawhi shoots 89% and LeBron shoots in the 60s or 70s percentage, scoring wise its Leonard by far because he can carry a bigger load on better efficiency in the playoffs and also because LeBron's title wins hes averaging 26 and 26. Thats when lebron's teams thrive the most is when he's not the clear cut #1 scoring option like cavs 2016. LeBron averaged just 1 more point than Irving and that was his best year team performance wise. Kawhi as a 1st option hasn't lost a playoff series yet 6-0 and was on the roaring beating Durant-Curry and that's something LeBron could never do.

So LeBron is more like a Magic Johnson and Kawhi is Jordan, depends who you think is better.

Neither of them is anything like Magic, whose defining trait was to extract the most out of everyone around him and dominate with very low usage. I can see Kawhi/Jordan comparison, but Jordan was more athletic and just a bit better at most aspects of the game.

Lebron is a different breed in that he can do absolutely everything on a basketball court. The only comparable player in that regard is Russel Westbrook, but Lebron is bigger, stronger and has a higher basketball IQ. But being able to do everything can be both a blessing and a curse because it's a team sport and having one player actually do everything (even if he's capable of it) isn't ideal. When Westbrook averaged 32/11/10 in RG and 37/12/11 in the playoffs, the Thunder were a really bad team despite Westbrook doing everything. The Lebron conundrum is that in almost every he might be in he'll be the most skilled scorer, the most skilled playmaker, the strongest player, the best rebounder, etc... and the guy with the best motor too, so teams will naturally tend to become overreliant on him.

Kawhi is not a better scorer than Lebron (he's a better shooter though), nor can he "shoulder a bigger load" (that's absurd), he just has a narrower skillset that's easier to fit on good teams. You can't even make hypotheticals about adding Lebron to the Raptors because the Raptors as we knew them would cease to exist if they added Lebron, the team would be dismantled and rebuilt around Lebron. Siakam would probably have been traded, Lowry becomes largely redundant as Lebron will command the offense, Gasol will be reduced to spotting up on offense, etc... it becomes a fundamentally different team to the point where comparisons are just pointless. What happens if Lebron joins x team? That team will become a completely different team so who knows really.

Kawhi has had 732 points on 62% TS when has LeBron done that on a title team? Lebron is the slightly better slasher but Kawhi's shooting over LeBron's shooting is a bigger gap than their slashing gap.

LeBron is like Magic Johnson in the sense that his strength is playmaking, not scoring. LeBron's best team success came when he was a 1a type scorer in 2016 and not a clear cut first option scorer.

The only thing LeBron is better than Kawhi at is playing like a point guard. Shooting, scoring, defense, rebounding kawhi is better. Kawhi is better than LeBron for a lot of the same reasons that Jordan is better than Lebron but I guess LeBron fans will never accept that. Jordan fans already have lebron fans on there asses, so they want to pretend like Kawhi isn't better than LeBron as well.

[Joey Wheeler]

Kawhi compliments good teams better than LeBron does, we both agreed on that. What I disagree with is that LeBron would be better even on bad teams. We haven't seen Kawhi take 23-25 shots per game on a bad team. I think Kawhi is better on any team because he's the better team player and not a control freak with the offense. The gap on shooting is huge, kawhi shoots 89% and LeBron shoots in the 60s or 70s percentage, scoring wise its Leonard by far because he can carry a bigger load on better efficiency in the playoffs and also because LeBron's title wins hes averaging 26 and 26. Thats when lebron's teams thrive the most is when he's not the clear cut #1 scoring option like cavs 2016. LeBron averaged just 1 more point than Irving and that was his best year team performance wise. Kawhi as a 1st option hasn't lost a playoff series yet 6-0 and was on the roaring beating Durant-Curry and that's something LeBron could never do.

So LeBron is more like a Magic Johnson and Kawhi is Jordan, depends who you think is better.

Neither of them is anything like Magic, whose defining trait was to extract the most out of everyone around him and dominate with very low usage. I can see Kawhi/Jordan comparison, but Jordan was more athletic and just a bit better at most aspects of the game.

Lebron is a different breed in that he can do absolutely everything on a basketball court. The only comparable player in that regard is Russel Westbrook, but Lebron is bigger, stronger and has a higher basketball IQ. But being able to do everything can be both a blessing and a curse because it's a team sport and having one player actually do everything (even if he's capable of it) isn't ideal. When Westbrook averaged 32/11/10 in RG and 37/12/11 in the playoffs, the Thunder were a really bad team despite Westbrook doing everything. The Lebron conundrum is that in almost every he might be in he'll be the most skilled scorer, the most skilled playmaker, the strongest player, the best rebounder, etc... and the guy with the best motor too, so teams will naturally tend to become overreliant on him.

Kawhi is not a better scorer than Lebron (he's a better shooter though), nor can he "shoulder a bigger load" (that's absurd), he just has a narrower skillset that's easier to fit on good teams. You can't even make hypotheticals about adding Lebron to the Raptors because the Raptors as we knew them would cease to exist if they added Lebron, the team would be dismantled and rebuilt around Lebron. Siakam would probably have been traded, Lowry becomes largely redundant as Lebron will command the offense, Gasol will be reduced to spotting up on offense, etc... it becomes a fundamentally different team to the point where comparisons are just pointless. What happens if Lebron joins x team? That team will become a completely different team so who knows really.

Kawhi has had 732 points on 62% TS when has LeBron done that on a title team? Lebron is the slightly better slasher but Kawhi's shooting over LeBron's shooting is a bigger gap than their slashing gap.

LeBron is like Magic Johnson in the sense that his strength is playmaking, not scoring. LeBron's best team success came when he was a 1a type scorer in 2016 and not a clear cut first option scorer.

The only thing LeBron is better than Kawhi at is playing like a point guard. Shooting, scoring, defense, rebounding kawhi is better. Kawhi is better than LeBron for a lot of the same reasons that Jordan is better than Lebron but I guess LeBron fans will never accept that. Jordan fans already have lebron fans on there asses, so they want to pretend like Kawhi isn't better than LeBron as well.

Last two playoffs, Lebron averaged 34 on 62% and 33 on 65% TS. Lebron's strength is... everything really. He's an elite offense unto himself.

Scoring is comparable, Lebron is the better individual scorer, Kawhi is better at scoring in the flow of the offense.

Rebounding is similar. Lebron is a way superior playmaker, therefore generates far more and better team offense and is a couple tiers above as an offensive player.

Kawhi is clearly better defensively, but overall Lebron is just the superior individual force even now.

[PaulieWal]

It was a good run.