RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #1 (LeBron James)

[Hornet Mania]

For me GOAT is a club more than an individual. The title is always dependent on what an observer values most, or how they weigh different factors together. With that in mind I'll quickly run through the GOAT Club in order of their entrance into the league, and why I feel each of these men has a legitimate case. (But I should note, paradoxically perhaps, that I would rank some players ahead of guys in this group. That's because while I do think all these men have a case I do not necessarily agree with that case)

Bill Russell- The greatest winner of all time. Peerless in terms of team success, a physical defensive force with an extremely underrated basketball IQ. He was ahead of his time in many ways and it's no coincidence that he was the centerpiece of what will likely forever remain the greatest dynasty in NBA history.

Wilt Chamberlain- Eye-popping stats. Perhaps the most physically dominant player ever (hat tip to Shaq on that 'perhaps') and his numbers look like video game stats even taken in the context of their era. If stats = greatness to you then Wilt is your man.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar- The Captain dominated at every level, it should first be noted. He has a legit case as the greatest HS, college and NBA player respectively. His two-way value was incredible, he was an elite defensive anchor both in-era and all-time and offensively he was a force for two solid decades. Speaking of longevity, his is unmatched in the elite strata of players (although Lebron is now hot on his heels), iirc he had the longest stretch between first and last Finals MVP in league history winning it first in 71 and last in 85. In terms of total career value I feel Kareem is king.

Michael Jordan- The presumptive GOAT for decades if you ask the average sports fan. Jordan was an unprecedented offensive dynamo on the perimeter, pushing the sport in a new direction. He proved resoundingly that an elite perimeter player can win championships in the same way big men had previously dominated the NBA. His two-way ability is underrated, Jordan was a fantastic defender and relished being able to excel on that side of the floor. In the modern era no player had led his team to the dizzying heights the Bulls enjoyed as they won 6 titles in 8 years, never losing in a season where Jordan played from the beginning. His performances as a closer were legendary, as was his competitive spirit. To me Jordan was the best player ever at his peak.

Tim Duncan- A model of consistency. Duncan's box scores do not come close to capturing his full impact on and off the court. He turned San Antonio into the envy of the league and provided an even-keel stability that no other dynasty, save perhaps the Russell Celtics, could boast. His GOAT case is the weakest among all the players listed here but he's solid as can be in terms of knowing what you're going to get every game every year. In an all-time draft Duncan has to be considered for the first pick, so to me that makes him a member of the GOAT Club.

Lebron James- The most recent entrant in the club. Lebron boasts a top-tier peak (only below Shaq and MJ imo) and top-tier longevity (only below Kareem, Malone and essentially tied with Duncan imo). The fact he is still writing new chapters in his legacy will only help to solidify his position in years to come. At present I only have him behind Jordan (due to peak) and Kareem (due to The Captain being quite close at peak with superior longevity). One more year like this one and he passes Kareem, another two or three like 2020 and his career value would eclipse Jordan so much that it might overcome the lingering suspicion I have that MJ was simply superior as a player.

My votes for #1

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James

[70sFan]

Kareem aggressively protested the lakers trading for magic and was annoyed about magic getting a bigger role in the offense. Than magic went and started a **** coup in the press.

Really the OG Shaq+Kobe

I haven't heard anything about that and if you read this article, it seems that Magic was more happy with trading Kareem than the other way:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-01-08-sp-2903-story.html

It was also Magic who demanded a trade in case of not firing Paul Westhead. Young Magic was a lot harder to deal with than most realize...

This. Magic Johnson is my favorite basketball player and he was wondrous to watch in early years as grew into his game. He was also, in retrospect, full of himself and overestimated his abilities. He was a kid. Really, Kareem's demeanor worked to his advantage here. Not to be a dick or anything, but when a guy at the beginning of his third year, whose lousy play (and a way errant shot) kept the team from advancing in an elimination game the year before says that the guy who was 3rd in MVP voting the year before--and won the damn thing the year before that on a championship team--is holding a team back ... well, most players would have been a lot more angry. publicly and privately, than Kareem. Kareem dealt with it the right way. I'd actually say that by letting Riley handle it (correctly) and recognizing Magic's immaturity and not letting that impede their relationships on and off court, Kareem did a lot more to keep Magic than the other way around.

Fantastic point and I definitely agree. People blame Kareem for not being a good leader, but this specific situation shows that Jabbar was simply more mature than most players and he understood how to deal with Magic approach.

Imagine Davis playing terribly in 2021 playoffs, then getting ridiculous contract, then asking for firing Vogel and saying that they'll be better without LeBron... Now imagine what people would think about Davis here. I love Magic and he's one of my favorite players as well (I'm highly impressed by how he matured as a player in mid-80s), but he acted like a immature bufoon. That's the reality and huge proprs for both Kareem (for staying calm and not breaking down a team) and Riley (for dealing with Magic). Otherwise, it's possible we'd never see Showtime Lakers at its best.

[Texas Chuck]

After reading some brilliant posts here,

No doubt.

They have me wanting to re-evaluate Kareem as well. I can't get him up to 1, but I had him 5th of the 5 guys I felt like deserved any serious consideration and I'm starting to wonder if that's right.

And I've always been a Russell guy for reasons already laid out by multiple people itt, but have come over to Lebron in the last year or so and 2020 certainly only strengthened Lebron's case, but if I believe what I believe about basketball there is a real case to be made that Russell is GOAT and probably always will be GOAT and everyone else plays for 2nd.

If it weren't for Lebron's crazy longevity this is Russell and I don't really struggle with it. Now I'm teetering between the two again.

[homecourtloss]

2009 is LeBron's best regular season. He was also amazing in the first two rounds of the play-offs but his heroball on sub-par efficiency in the ECF makes it difficult to see it as better than 2012, 2013, 2016 or 2018.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2009-nba-eastern-conference-finals-magic-vs-cavaliers.html
LeBron .591 TS% (RS league average that year .544).
Fwiw ... 11.3 TOV%, 40 AST%, 38.8 Usage%, Ortg 118.

I have to wonder what "par" would be.

Against a #1, -6.4 rDrtg team.

He was also +5.8% reFG% vs. what the Magic gave up during the season.

[Homer38]

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2009 is LeBron's best regular season. He was also amazing in the first two rounds of the play-offs but his heroball on sub-par efficiency in the ECF makes it difficult to see it as better than 2012, 2013, 2016 or 2018.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2009-nba-eastern-conference-finals-magic-vs-cavaliers.html
LeBron .591 TS% (RS league average that year .544).
Fwiw ... 11.3 TOV%, 40 AST%, 38.8 Usage%, Ortg 118.

I have to wonder what "par" would be.

Against a #1, -6.4 rDrtg team.

And the cavs offense were not the problem in this series....The defense were!

[homecourtloss]

For all you people who are absolutely bewildered by me not licking Bron's balls:

He had a great game 1 against Orlando. Shooting 30 times from the field and making a very impressive 20 of those shots. This game greatly boosts his average for the finals because it was all downhill from there. Scoring 41 points on 39% from the field, while having a +- of -12 is an AI type of shooting performance. At some point taking all these shots isn't helping your team win.

Now I'm gonna step away for a bit because I can't say I'm all that fond of people making things personal and I might say some things I'll regret.

You posted something that was factually incorrect, i.e., “subpar efficiciency” vs. Orlando, got called on it, got defensive and said “I’m not gonna lick LeBron’s balls,” and now you say others made it personal? OK.

[homecourtloss]

In terms of Michael Jordan I see him as one of the most reliable offensive anchors of all time combined with above average defense for most of his entire career. During his prime he could basically do everything on offense, penetrate, go to the post, cut, facilitate, offensive rebound and score in transition. The main thing that made him so deadly was not just his huge skillset but also the fact that he was ruthless and efficient in how he used said skillset. I think his portability is great and he has the tools to play in most any era. In terms of total value accumulated, I might have LeBron slightly ahead but with his tools and mind I still have more trust in Jordan. Not a perfect player but he was as close as anyone imo.

How is Jordan a more reliable offensive anchor than LeBron? I went over their Playoff numbers and their scoring is actually quite comparable. Jordan would score at a bit higher volume but the efficiency edge goes to LeBron. Unless you wanna isolate specific periods or extreme examples in their careers...

Like for instance, comparing MJ's 87-91 seasons with LeBron's 07-11 seasons... in which case, it is true that at that point of both players respective careers, Jordan was a more reliable offensive anchor mostly because his scoring ability was better at that point in time to LeBron's.

If we compare 1992 & 1993 to 2012 & 2013, i would still go with Jordan for offense, but the gap has definitely visibly closed, and when you account for LeBron's versatility and defensive edge in those seasons.

2014,2016,2017,2018 and 2020 is actually LeBron's peak offensive resilience years, imo, and they stack up well against the Top 5 Jordan seasons in that sense, imo.

So really, if we're talking about offensive anchor resiliency, MJ's 87-91 should be stacking up to LeBron's 14-20 (minus '15 and '19) while 1992 and 1993 against 2012 and 2013 are kind of a wash. And Jordan's 96-98 run is compared to LeBron's 09-11 run if we're ranking it in terms of offensive reliability/resilience.

The problem after that is that Jordan doesn't have anything left worthwhile to stack, while LeBron has 2006,2007,2008 and 2015.

Additionally, Lebron’s scoring and efficiency held up really well against very good to great defenses in the playoffs, much better than Jordan’s scoring and efficiency did.

[70sFan]

In terms of Michael Jordan I see him as one of the most reliable offensive anchors of all time combined with above average defense for most of his entire career. During his prime he could basically do everything on offense, penetrate, go to the post, cut, facilitate, offensive rebound and score in transition. The main thing that made him so deadly was not just his huge skillset but also the fact that he was ruthless and efficient in how he used said skillset. I think his portability is great and he has the tools to play in most any era. In terms of total value accumulated, I might have LeBron slightly ahead but with his tools and mind I still have more trust in Jordan. Not a perfect player but he was as close as anyone imo.

How is Jordan a more reliable offensive anchor than LeBron? I went over their Playoff numbers and their scoring is actually quite comparable. Jordan would score at a bit higher volume but the efficiency edge goes to LeBron. Unless you wanna isolate specific periods or extreme examples in their careers...

Like for instance, comparing MJ's 87-91 seasons with LeBron's 07-11 seasons... in which case, it is true that at that point of both players respective careers, Jordan was a more reliable offensive anchor mostly because his scoring ability was better at that point in time to LeBron's.

If we compare 1992 & 1993 to 2012 & 2013, i would still go with Jordan for offense, but the gap has definitely visibly closed, and when you account for LeBron's versatility and defensive edge in those seasons.

2014,2016,2017,2018 and 2020 is actually LeBron's peak offensive resilience years, imo, and they stack up well against the Top 5 Jordan seasons in that sense, imo.

So really, if we're talking about offensive anchor resiliency, MJ's 87-91 should be stacking up to LeBron's 14-20 (minus '15 and '19) while 1992 and 1993 against 2012 and 2013 are kind of a wash. And Jordan's 96-98 run is compared to LeBron's 09-11 run if we're ranking it in terms of offensive reliability/resilience.

The problem after that is that Jordan doesn't have anything left worthwhile to stack, while LeBron has 2006,2007,2008 and 2015.

Additionally, Lebron’s scoring and efficiency held up really well against very good to great defenses in the playoffs, much better than Jordan’s scoring and efficiency did.

That's not true, Jordan's scoring and efficiency was just fine agianst good to great defenses:

Here are culminative stats against -2.0 rDRtg defenses or better:

2008-20 LeBron James (128 games): 28.8 ppg on 48.5% FG, 35.1% 3FG, 73.6% FT and 57.5% TS (+3.42% rTS) in 41.9 mpg
1985-98 Michael Jordan (108 games): 32.4 ppg on 47.6% FG, 32.4% 3FG, 83.1% FT and 56.2% TS (+2.67% rTS) in 42.0 mpg

"Much better" is a huge overstatement...

Edit: for interested, I include Kareem's stats as well:

1970-81 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (56 games): 30.3 ppg on 52.1% FG, 72.3% FT, 55.1% TS (+3.75 rTS%) in 45.3 mpg

[Jordan Syndrome]

After reading some brilliant posts here,

No doubt.

They have me wanting to re-evaluate Kareem as well. I can't get him up to 1, but I had him 5th of the 5 guys I felt like deserved any serious consideration and I'm starting to wonder if that's right.

And I've always been a Russell guy for reasons already laid out by multiple people itt, but have come over to Lebron in the last year or so and 2020 certainly only strengthened Lebron's case, but if I believe what I believe about basketball there is a real case to be made that Russell is GOAT and probably always will be GOAT and everyone else plays for 2nd.

If it weren't for Lebron's crazy longevity this is Russell and I don't really struggle with it. Now I'm teetering between the two again.

I am actually struggling with placing Kareem in the top-3 and I wonder how he will fare against Magic/Bird/Wilt/Shaq/Kobe/Dirk/Garnett/Hakeem/Moses. I currently have a "clear" top 4 with Duncan rounding it out, and while I have in the past places Kareem in this top tier, I am starting to wonder if he is overrated by myself.

[70sFan]

After reading some brilliant posts here,

No doubt.

They have me wanting to re-evaluate Kareem as well. I can't get him up to 1, but I had him 5th of the 5 guys I felt like deserved any serious consideration and I'm starting to wonder if that's right.

And I've always been a Russell guy for reasons already laid out by multiple people itt, but have come over to Lebron in the last year or so and 2020 certainly only strengthened Lebron's case, but if I believe what I believe about basketball there is a real case to be made that Russell is GOAT and probably always will be GOAT and everyone else plays for 2nd.

If it weren't for Lebron's crazy longevity this is Russell and I don't really struggle with it. Now I'm teetering between the two again.

I am actually struggling with placing Kareem in the top-3 and I wonder how he will fare against Magic/Bird/Wilt/Shaq/Kobe/Dirk/Garnett/Hakeem/Moses. I currently have a "clear" top 4 with Duncan rounding it out, and while I have in the past places Kareem in this top tier, I am starting to wonder if he is overrated by myself.

What makes you so unsure about Kareem's case?

[Jordan Syndrome]

No doubt.

They have me wanting to re-evaluate Kareem as well. I can't get him up to 1, but I had him 5th of the 5 guys I felt like deserved any serious consideration and I'm starting to wonder if that's right.

And I've always been a Russell guy for reasons already laid out by multiple people itt, but have come over to Lebron in the last year or so and 2020 certainly only strengthened Lebron's case, but if I believe what I believe about basketball there is a real case to be made that Russell is GOAT and probably always will be GOAT and everyone else plays for 2nd.

If it weren't for Lebron's crazy longevity this is Russell and I don't really struggle with it. Now I'm teetering between the two again.

I am actually struggling with placing Kareem in the top-3 and I wonder how he will fare against Magic/Bird/Wilt/Shaq/Kobe/Dirk/Garnett/Hakeem/Moses. I currently have a "clear" top 4 with Duncan rounding it out, and while I have in the past places Kareem in this top tier, I am starting to wonder if he is overrated by myself.

What makes you so unsure about Kareem's case?

1) Is he the capable of being the offensive catalyst of a great offense?

2) How did his offensive and defensive peaks overlap?

3) Did he ever have a run as great as Peak Duncan?

[70sFan]

1) Is he the capable of being the offensive catalyst of a great offense?

I think he proved it both in Milwaukee and LA. 1980 Lakers were a great offensive team. 1971-74 Bucks were also amazing. If you wonder about how much of it is Oscar, then keep in mind that Bucks played without Oscar at over 60 wins pace in 1972.

I don't think it's arguable that Jababr was offensive catayst of 1980 Lakers team.

2) How did his offensive and defensive peaks overlap?

I think that he was at his best defensively in 1971-77 period, while his best offensive years were probably in 1974-80. So there is some overlap and you have to keep in mind that Kareem was all-time great offensive player for whole decade and he didn't really regress defensively until 1979.

3) Did he ever have a run as great as Peak Duncan?

I think that 1971, 1974, 1977 and 1980 all can be argued. If you don't want to include incomplete posteasons, you can leave 1977. If you are very high on boxscore prodcution, I guess that 1971 won't make it either (but keep in mind that Bucks were brutally dominant in 1971 and Kareem faced all-time great defensive matchups in all series he played). There is no reason to exclude 1974 and 1980 though and I say this as the biggest Duncan fan in the world.

[Joao Saraiva]

For all you people who are absolutely bewildered by me not licking Bron's balls:

He had a great game 1 against Orlando. Shooting 30 times from the field and making a very impressive 20 of those shots. This game greatly boosts his average for the finals because it was all downhill from there. Scoring 41 points on 39% from the field, while having a +- of -12 is an AI type of shooting performance. At some point taking all these shots isn't helping your team win.

Now I'm gonna step away for a bit because I can't say I'm all that fond of people making things personal and I might say some things I'll regret.

G1: 49 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals, 3 blocks, 2 TOs, 71.2 ts%
It's not a great performance. It's an all time performance.

G2: 35 points, 4 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal, 6 TOs, 61.9 ts%
Including game winner. Very good game despite de 5 AST/6TO ratio being bad. His efficiency and volume however speak for themselves.

G3: 41 points, 7 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 2 TO on 53.2ts%
It's still a very good game. Despite not being as efficient, his AST/TO ratio is much actually great.

G4: 44 points, 12 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 8 TOs on 51.7 ts%
Yeah this is a performance that speaks volume with no efficiency. Still since you brough +/- to the table, LeBron was +6 here.
Not his greatest game, but still not a negative one for sure.

G5: 37 points, 14 rebounds, 12 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 4 TOs on 57.2ts%
Needless to say it was another legendary performance. Also 17 points, 4 rebounds and 4 assists in the 4th with no TOs. What else is needed?

G6: 25 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block, 3 TOs on 50.3ts%
I'd say this is the only subpar game of the series for him.

So we got 2 legandary performances, 3 games with a positive +/- in a series that ended in 6, 4 games with low TOs, ton of assists and points and 3 games of very efficient scoring.

Subpar... Go look at all the Jordan series and compare it to this one. We'll see how many subpar series he had according to your criteria.

Anyway it's getting out of topic, and if you wish to think this is a subpar series.... well, that's on you. It's getting out of topic so I won't reply to this anymore.

And it's about LeBron vs Jordan for you after all. I might just not engage much with people in general on the early parts of the top 100 as very little of what I've seen so far I'd count as constructive and helpful discussion.

Also he had a ridiculous amount of free throws that helped his TS%. In terms of FG%, which I was talking about, it's a different story. Game 1 was great or legendary as you'd put it, game 2 was good, 4 and 5 were average and 3 and 6 were bad. The only point I was making is that this version of LeBron is not peak LeBron in my eyes.

If you don't count FTs? Why shouldn't I count FTs? Am I going to not count them for other players? Did the NBA decide FTs don't count? Hell yeah I'm going to count FTs. And 3 pointers. And whatever it is that a player can make to put points for his team. If he goes 20-20 from the FT line and 0-2 FG he had a super efficient 20 points night. Am I going to say that player had a bad night cause he had 0% FG? It doesn't even make sense. And if somebody comes here with MJ vs Knicks having a bad FG% and makes an omission about the FTs or against Seattle, I'm going to bring ts% back again.

It's not about LeBron vs Jordan. As far as I'm concerned at least Russell, KAJ, MJ and Wilt have an argument for the GOAT spot. LeBron is just one of those players.

I talked about MJ because he was very consistent, but if the 2009 ECF is a subpar series, then even MJ has a lot of those.

About not having 09 as LeBron's peak... that's fine also. But when you're taking a formula into consideration, you can't take away one year cause it doesn't fit the agenda.

Do the formulas however you want them... prime is consecutive years, put the value of FMVP inside the value of the season, reward long runs, reward going to the finals or whatever. Taking away one year cause it doesn't fit the agenda is just wrong. That's like saying Hakeem isn't a top player because I decided 93-95 Hakeem shouldn't count, cause it was an anomally. With those 3 seasons gone, it's fair to say Karl Malone should be ranked above Hakeem. You see what I mean? You put a formula ora criteria, you should follow it despite the results not being what you thought at 1st.

I would be more OK if he said, despite LeBron's peak being #1 by the formula, I'm giving the nod peak wise to MJ (it's not because it's the LeBron vs MJ debate, it's because MJ became #1 on his list peak wise) because I don't think that was peak LeBron for this and that and that reason. Presenting the numbers as MJ #1 is just dishonest.

Are we clear about what I am against?

[Jordan Syndrome]

1) Is he the capable of being the offensive catalyst of a great offense?

I think he proved it both in Milwaukee and LA. 1980 Lakers were a great offensive team. 1971-74 Bucks were also amazing. If you wonder about how much of it is Oscar, then keep in mind that Bucks played without Oscar at over 60 wins pace in 1972.

I don't think it's arguable that Jababr was offensive catayst of 1980 Lakers team.

2) How did his offensive and defensive peaks overlap?

I think that he was at his best defensively in 1971-77 period, while his best offensive years were probably in 1974-80. So there is some overlap and you have to keep in mind that Kareem was all-time great offensive player for whole decade and he didn't really regress defensively until 1979.

3) Did he ever have a run as great as Peak Duncan?

I think that 1971, 1974, 1977 and 1980 all can be argued. If you don't want to include incomplete posteasons, you can leave 1977. If you are very high on boxscore prodcution, I guess that 1971 won't make it either (but keep in mind that Bucks were brutally dominant in 1971 and Kareem faced all-time great defensive matchups in all series he played). There is no reason to exclude 1974 and 1980 though and I say this as the biggest Duncan fan in the world.

Thanks. I'll keep this in mind and do some more digging tonight.

[70sFan]

1) Is he the capable of being the offensive catalyst of a great offense?

I think he proved it both in Milwaukee and LA. 1980 Lakers were a great offensive team. 1971-74 Bucks were also amazing. If you wonder about how much of it is Oscar, then keep in mind that Bucks played without Oscar at over 60 wins pace in 1972.

I don't think it's arguable that Jababr was offensive catayst of 1980 Lakers team.

2) How did his offensive and defensive peaks overlap?

I think that he was at his best defensively in 1971-77 period, while his best offensive years were probably in 1974-80. So there is some overlap and you have to keep in mind that Kareem was all-time great offensive player for whole decade and he didn't really regress defensively until 1979.

3) Did he ever have a run as great as Peak Duncan?

I think that 1971, 1974, 1977 and 1980 all can be argued. If you don't want to include incomplete posteasons, you can leave 1977. If you are very high on boxscore prodcution, I guess that 1971 won't make it either (but keep in mind that Bucks were brutally dominant in 1971 and Kareem faced all-time great defensive matchups in all series he played). There is no reason to exclude 1974 and 1980 though and I say this as the biggest Duncan fan in the world.

Thanks. I'll keep this in mind and do some more digging tonight.

I hope that it'll be helpful. If you find something that disagrees with my post, let me know. I'm always keen to such discussions

[Jaivl]

I am actually struggling with placing Kareem in the top-3 and I wonder how he will fare against Magic/Bird/Wilt/Shaq/Kobe/Dirk/Garnett/Hakeem/Moses. I currently have a "clear" top 4 with Duncan rounding it out, and while I have in the past places Kareem in this top tier, I am starting to wonder if he is overrated by myself.

Oh, Moses in the top 12? I'll be eagerly waiting for that! Always like me some funky (but I'm guessing substantiated) picks.

[Jordan Syndrome]

I am actually struggling with placing Kareem in the top-3 and I wonder how he will fare against Magic/Bird/Wilt/Shaq/Kobe/Dirk/Garnett/Hakeem/Moses. I currently have a "clear" top 4 with Duncan rounding it out, and while I have in the past places Kareem in this top tier, I am starting to wonder if he is overrated by myself.

Oh, Moses in the top 12? I'll be eagerly waiting for that! Always like me some funky (but I'm guessing substantiated) picks.

I know Odinn21 is high on Moses and I have come around on him over the past few years.

[No-more-rings]

I can't go much in depth as I'd like.

I have 3 GOAT candidates: MJ, Lebron and Kareem. Russell and Wilt just a shade below.

I can see arguments for all 3.

I do have MJ and Lebron ahead of Kareem by a clear but not significant margin.

On MJ vs Lebron:

I think there's compelling arguments on both sides. Lebron's longevity is definitely well document and he has that over Jordan.

Lebron's peak and prime are thereabouts to Jordan's whereas Jordan's longevity definitely lags behind Lebron's.

Since everything has to be nitpicked and analyzed under a microscope, I still have a real hard time ignoring Lebron's 2011 finals performance. It wasn't that he lost. He lost in the 2017 finals and 2018 finals too, but he left no doubt who the best player was. He left that doubt heavily in 2011. He was outplayed by Wade and Dirk in the series. This is the 2nd time in a series where Lebron wasn't even the 2nd best player. 2007 finals would be the other. I know his team was severely outmatched, but I don't think Lebron played as well as he could have(even back then). I also thought Lebron's performance vs the Celtics in 2010 is another mystery. Rondo arguably outplayed him too and Lebron didn't give off this impression that he was going down swinging(like he did in 2017 and 2018). I don't want to say that he quit, but I felt he could have done more. Was he much worse as a player in 2010 than 2009? I don't think so. You saw his excellence vs the Magic a year prior. I'm not saying he should have replicated that vs the Celtics, but I do think he could have played better.

Jordan isn't perfect and he's lost plenty of series, but I'm not sure there's a series on his resume where he was to blame for the loss. Whenever Jordan was expected to win, he did win. I also firmly believe and have stated that I do think Lebron has aged better than Jordan. I think old man Lebron is better than old man Jordan. However, I think younger Jordan is better than younger Lebron. I see Lebron's peak in his 30's. I think MJ peaked clearly when he was under 30.

I think something clicked in Lebron following the 2016 finals, and he has this incredible gear since that I don't think he had before. He displayed that gear in certain games. Game 6 vs the Celtics in 2012 is still to me Lebron's greatest game. It was an incredible display of mental composure and confidence. The pressure he was facing that game probably eclipses any pressure an athlete has ever faced. I've seen full series of similar performances of that nature since 2016. His performance vs the Celtics in the 2017 ECF is like watching a man play vs HS kids. He was sensational.

I do think Lebron is somewhat lacking a 'perfect season' on his resume. A season where his RS and playoffs were both extremely dominant for Lebron's lofty standards. He's had dominant playoff runs, but the RS was a bit lacking. He's had dominant RS runs, but then his playoffs were a bit lacking. Jordan's 91 season remains the greatest peak to me, and I think his RS run and playoff run was excellent. He had arguably the GOAT RS. Then he followed that up by being even better in the playoffs. I'm well aware of Lebron's 09 season and I think this could fit that description, but I still have a hard time placing that season as Lebron's best, when what transpired in 2010 and 2011 follows a short time later. I know situations change, but I think Lebron had weaknesses then that could be somewhat exposed. These weaknesses do not exist in 2016, 2018, 2020 and 2017.

I think Jordan peaks just a teeny bit higher than Lebron and has a better prime by a teeny bit. I'd take Jordan's best 3 year or 5 stretch over Lebron's by the tiniest of margins. I'll go back to this again, but I don't think Jordan was to blame for any of his playoff losses. I think you can attribute that blame to Lebron in the 2011 finals, and arguably the 2010 series vs Boston. Lebron's longevity is definitely higher, but I value peak and prime a bit more for GOAT player.

My vote

1. Michael Jordan

2. Lebron James

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I just had a heated discussion about this in another thread, but his 2013 finals were dangerously close to falling into the same category as 2011 vs Mavs and 2010 vs Boston. He got major redemption in game 7, but we all know they were very dangerously close to losing in game 6. In 9 times out of 10 the Spurs close out that 4th quarter. Prior to game 6 he was averaging just 21.6 ppg on 49.4 ts%. Compare that to his first three rounds where he averaged 26.2 ppg on 61.3 ts%, or his 26.8 ppg on 64 ts% in the regular season. I'm not calling it a bad series overall, but i do think he would've been eaten alive by critics if they didn't pull that series out of their butts.

[limbo]

Additionally, Lebron’s scoring and efficiency held up really well against very good to great defenses in the playoffs, much better than Jordan’s scoring and efficiency did.

MJ:

1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


LeBron:

2006: vs. Pistons = 26.6 ppg on .516 %TS [-2.0 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Pistons = 25.7 ppg on .537 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-2.3 rDRtg, 7th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2009: vs. Magic = 38.5 ppg on .591 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2010: vs. Celtics = 26.8 ppg on .556 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2012: vs. Knicks = 27.8 ppg on .604 %TS [+7.7 rTS] (-3.6 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2012: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .587 %TS [+6.0 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Pacers = 29 ppg on .609 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Spurs = 25.3 ppg on .529 %TS [-0.6 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2014: vs. Bobcats = 30.0 ppg on .671 %TS [+13.0 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Spurs = 28.2 ppg on .679 %TS [+13.8 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2015: vs. Hawks = 30.3 ppg on .506 %TS [-2.8 rTS] (-2.5 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2015: vs. Warriors = 35.8 ppg on .477 %TS [-5.7 rTS] (-4.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2016: vs. Hawks = 24.3 ppg on .573 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-5.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2016: vs. Warriors = 29.7 ppg on .562 %TS [+2.1 rTS] (-2.6 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2017: vs. Warriors = 33.6 ppg on .630 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-4.8 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2018: vs. Raptors = 34.0 ppg on .579 %TS [+2.3 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2018: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .610 %TS [+5.4 rTS] (-4.7 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

[Ainosterhaspie]

Some of these criteria, reducing the evaluation to just a 7 or 10 year window are incomprehensible to me. You have guys like Russell, Kareem and LeBron who were MVP/FMVP caliber for 13+ years and just hand waive it as not mattering. How can being good enough to be the best player on a title team not matter for evaluating the greatest player ever.

I get discounting Vince Carter's last five years where all he's doing is collecting a paycheck, but Kareem winning FMVP in 71 and 85 seems like a strong indicator that he had more than 7-10 years of building a case for GOAT.

Just picking a limited window makes no sense. Let's say the window is 10 years. Player A's lowest rated season in those 10 years is let's say a 95. Player B's lowest in 12 years is 96. Maybe B didn't hit 100 as much as A, but if you're counting one guy's 95 and ignoring multiple 96s from another guy, there are some serious flaws in your system.

You take a guy who is marginally better over ten years and decide that marginal advantage is more important than 5 to 10 more years where another guy has a clear edge of high level not just borderline all star play, but all NBA first team or borderline MVP play. What is the rationale behind that? You run those two careers through 1,000 random iterations and the longer career with more high level play is going to lead to more success for his team.

I guess the point is, if you're gling to have an arbitrary cutoff where you ignore several seasons, that cut off should at the very least involve looking at a certain level of performance. Years that fall below are ignored and years that are above count. Then compare how many seasons different players have at or above the cutoff point. That at least makes some sort of sense even if I'd argue it's a poor way to evaluate an entire career.

Is Jordan 97 or 98 the low for what qualifies for consideration as a good enough season to merit consideration for GOAT? If so how about comparing the seasons that Jordan and other have that were at or above that level.