[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan

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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#161 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:58 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:The funny thing is usually when players have a reduced scoring load, their efficiency rises as they can better pick their spots. Kyrie has seen a massive reduction in volume AND efficiency, which is relatively peculiar.


Sometimes this happens though I wouldn't say it's an ironclad rule. Also, last year Kyrie posted the highest TS of his career both in RS and PS so it's not true that he's had a massive reduction in efficiency. His RS USG was also right in line with his career average though his PS USG was down slightly. I'd argue the combo of Harden and KD were more ball dominant than Lebron and Love, especially given how much Love's role was diminished in Cleveland, so that's worth factoring in here.


When Adjusted for opponent defense, he objectively did not have the best PS efficiency of his career which plays out in his rTS% and offensive value-metrics not being great.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#162 » by VanWest82 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:59 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:Kyrie is a little like Melo in that he’s effective when paired with a quality PG but if he’s the PG then it doesn’t work. Celtics tried to make Kyrie the PG. He was fine in Brooklyn last year until he got hurt. Obviously his stats weren’t going to look as impressive playing next to Harden AND KD. No need to create fake Lebron narratives here.


The real kicker here is where I say, "it is early," acknowledging that Kyrie has only played 655 minutes in the PS without Lebron, and therefore the results could be subject to change. Yet considering the drastic decrease in his performance is at least something notable that people might find interesting. It is almost as if you can't wait to say something that is contrarian to statistical evidence, you just miss everything else someone is saying and just utter anything on your mind.

It is not a fake narrative, when I present evidence that the difference in Kyrie's impact is statistically significant with or without Lebron. It is presenting a proposition that perhaps Lebron raised those Cavs offenses to the highest possible highs. The very same offenses you denigrate, were better than any Jordan ever lead.


It is kind of a fake narrative though when it's presented in a way as though Kyrie is dependent on Lebron specifically to achieve the highest levels of individual success. One could make a pretty solid argument that his three best regular seasons were last year and his two years in Boston. Those were his highest PER and BPM. I don't see how this is contrarian. It's just facts.

Also, I find it hard to believe any of the Cavs offenses were better than 96 Bulls once you adjust for era and opponents. Maybe if you're only looking at the postseason or something and not taking opponents into account.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#163 » by VanWest82 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:05 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:The funny thing is usually when players have a reduced scoring load, their efficiency rises as they can better pick their spots. Kyrie has seen a massive reduction in volume AND efficiency, which is relatively peculiar.


Sometimes this happens though I wouldn't say it's an ironclad rule. Also, last year Kyrie posted the highest TS of his career both in RS and PS so it's not true that he's had a massive reduction in efficiency. His RS USG was also right in line with his career average though his PS USG was down slightly. I'd argue the combo of Harden and KD were more ball dominant than Lebron and Love, especially given how much Love's role was diminished in Cleveland, so that's worth factoring in here.


When Adjusted for opponent defense, he objectively did not have the best PS efficiency of his career which plays out in his rTS% and offensive value-metrics not being great.


So here you want to adjust Kyrie downward for opponent (but not take role in Boston into account) over an extremely sss, but not for Cavs vs. historically crappy postseason opponents while completely ignoring their defense? Sure seems like we're picking and choosing.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#164 » by VanWest82 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:08 pm

Like I've said before, I'm out on only looking at Lebron/Cavs post season numbers from 15-18. How about we only look at MJ's numbers from the 86 Celtics series when he got to rehab the whole year and didn't have any hard miles on him. Lebron coasted and then played historically weak playoff opponents. It's so disingenuous. Evaluate the entire season.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#165 » by falcolombardi » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:19 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
Sometimes this happens though I wouldn't say it's an ironclad rule. Also, last year Kyrie posted the highest TS of his career both in RS and PS so it's not true that he's had a massive reduction in efficiency. His RS USG was also right in line with his career average though his PS USG was down slightly. I'd argue the combo of Harden and KD were more ball dominant than Lebron and Love, especially given how much Love's role was diminished in Cleveland, so that's worth factoring in here.


When Adjusted for opponent defense, he objectively did not have the best PS efficiency of his career which plays out in his rTS% and offensive value-metrics not being great.


So here you want to adjust Kyrie downward for opponent (but not take role in Boston into account) over an extremely sss, but not for Cavs vs. historically crappy postseason opponents while completely ignoring their defense? Sure seems like we're picking and choosing.


relative true shooting already accounts for rival
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#166 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:24 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
When Adjusted for opponent defense, he objectively did not have the best PS efficiency of his career which plays out in his rTS% and offensive value-metrics not being great.


So here you want to adjust Kyrie downward for opponent (but not take role in Boston into account) over an extremely sss, but not for Cavs vs. historically crappy postseason opponents while completely ignoring their defense? Sure seems like we're picking and choosing.


relative true shooting already accounts for rival


I'm convinced VanWest doesn't actually understand the numbers we are using, otherwise he wouldn't have made 2 of the statements he just made regarding rORTG and inflation adjusted relative true-shooting. They are "relative because they account for the opponents defense," and the Cavs PS offenses were better than any of the Bulls teams even when you account for opponent strength.

In other words, VanWest wants to pretend to know more than he actually does and hence why we probably have wasted a few too many days talking to him.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#167 » by falcolombardi » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:28 pm

VanWest82 wrote:Like I've said before, I'm out on only looking at Lebron/Cavs post season numbers from 15-18. How about we only look at MJ's numbers from the 86 Celtics series when he got to rehab the whole year and didn't have any hard miles on him. Lebron coasted and then played historically weak playoff opponents. It's so disingenuous. Evaluate the entire season.


you are comparing a single series of 4 games to a 16 series run....one series is a nearly useless sample size while 16 series is literally more games than a full regular season

is very obvious why that would be a bad comparision
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#168 » by VanWest82 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:28 pm

falcolombardi wrote:relative true shooting already accounts for rival


Gotcha. Thought it was just relative to league average TS.

So the creators of relative TS looked at the opposing match ups and saw that the two guys who guarded Kyrie the most last playoffs by a significant margin were Jrue Holiday and Marcus Smart, and they said these guys are chumps defensively so we better adjust Kyrie's TS downward? I'm just trying to understand here...
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#169 » by falcolombardi » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:36 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:relative true shooting already accounts for rival


Gotcha. Thought it was just relative to league average TS.

So the creators of relative TS looked at the opposing match ups and saw that the two guys who guarded Kyrie the most last playoffs by a significant margin were Jrue Holiday and Marcus Smart, and they said these guys are chumps defensively so we better adjust Kyrie's TS downward? I'm just trying to understand here...


it looks at what average percentages/ true shooting
celtics or bucks allowed in regular seasons and compares kyrie to that

if bulls allowed a 55% ts and kyrie scores at 54% vs them the stat says kyrie was -1 in efficiency against them
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#170 » by VanWest82 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:40 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:I'm convinced VanWest doesn't actually understand the numbers we are using, otherwise he wouldn't have made 2 of the statements he just made regarding rORTG and inflation adjusted relative true-shooting. They are "relative because they account for the opponents defense," and the Cavs PS offenses were better than any of the Bulls teams even when you account for opponent strength.

In other words, VanWest wants to pretend to know more than he actually does and hence why we probably have wasted a few too many days talking to him.


You're welcome to avoid my posts in the future just as you continue to avoid actually addressing any of my points, instead opting for ad hominems. You know someone doesn't a have a good argument when...
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#171 » by VanWest82 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:48 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:relative true shooting already accounts for rival


Gotcha. Thought it was just relative to league average TS.

So the creators of relative TS looked at the opposing match ups and saw that the two guys who guarded Kyrie the most last playoffs by a significant margin were Jrue Holiday and Marcus Smart, and they said these guys are chumps defensively so we better adjust Kyrie's TS downward? I'm just trying to understand here...


it looks at what average percentages/ true shooting
celtics or bucks allowed in regular seasons and compares kyrie to that

if bulls allowed a 55% ts and kyrie scores at 54% vs them the stat says kyrie was -1 in efficiency against them


I was being a little facetious. I don't mind that tool over a full season but in sss, especially in this specific example with Kyrie, I'd argue it's kinda useless unless it's broken down to the match up level. How about we look at TS allowed by Jrue and Smart on > 1 day of rest and compare what Kyrie did to that. Even then it wouldn't be a true representation because both those guys defended at a much higher level in the playoffs.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#172 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:56 pm

VanWest82 wrote:Like I've said before, I'm out on only looking at Lebron/Cavs post season numbers from 15-18. How about we only look at MJ's numbers from the 86 Celtics series when he got to rehab the whole year and didn't have any hard miles on him. Lebron coasted and then played historically weak playoff opponents. It's so disingenuous. Evaluate the entire season.


Already addressed but some new info.

86 PS MJ

RAPTOR-7.05
PIPM-2.7
Backpicks BPM-5.5

Lebron Prime "Coast" Seasons o(15-20):

14 LBJ
PIPM-5.48
RAPTOR-7.71
Backpicks BPM-8


15 LBJ
PIPM-2.77
RAPTOR-4.7
Backpicks BPM-6.5


16 LBJ
PIPM-5.77
RAPTOR-10.55
Backpicks BPM-9.5

17 LBJ
PIPM-7.26
RAPTOR-12.28
Backpicks BPM-9.3

18 LBJ
PIPM-3.84
RAPTOR-7.62
Backpicks BPM-8.4

20 LBJ
PIPM-6.5
RAPTOR-10.2
Backpicks BPM-9.37

I don't who he thinks 86 MJ is, as if that is something we have never seen before. And as per always, 95 is ignored when he had ample rest because of the results.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#173 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:57 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:I'm convinced VanWest doesn't actually understand the numbers we are using, otherwise he wouldn't have made 2 of the statements he just made regarding rORTG and inflation adjusted relative true-shooting. They are "relative because they account for the opponents defense," and the Cavs PS offenses were better than any of the Bulls teams even when you account for opponent strength.

In other words, VanWest wants to pretend to know more than he actually does and hence why we probably have wasted a few too many days talking to him.


You're welcome to avoid my posts in the future just as you continue to avoid actually addressing any of my points, instead opting for ad hominems. You know someone doesn't a have a good argument when...


I would take another look again. I have addressed all your points throughout this thread, I just don't think you are able to comprehend them. Furthermore, I wasn't responding to you today to begin with, I was simply having general chatter and you said the statistical evidence was a narrative. Just keep it moving man, your not wanted here.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#174 » by falcolombardi » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:17 pm

damn, this is getting personal

i would advise us all to take a breather and remember this is just basketball discu
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#175 » by VanWest82 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:18 pm

falcolombardi wrote:lebron lack of portability is why the cavs....defense(?) was bad?

one of the most versátile defensive players of our era lack of -defensive - portability is why a bad defensive roster was bad defensively ?

do you think if lebron left the offense to worse players and became a defensive specialist the defensive improvement would be enough to overcome the offensive drop off? (let alone inprove the team overall) you are asking lebron to be dikembe mutombo or Alonso mourning? cause that is the kind of defensive lift you are asking for

you just said that playing kyrie as the point guard was a bad idea by the celtics and then you criticize lebron for not dedicating to defense and letting kyrie run the offense instead ? who would have ran point guard then? lebron literally let kyrie take -MORE- shots than him despite being a less efficient scorer

do you think jordan would have happyly became a 3rd option behind love and kyrie amd dedicate himself to defense because the team had enough offense?


I don't think it needs to taken to extremes like you're doing here where Lebron all of a sudden becomes the 3rd option.

We saw Lebron's improved defensive effort in 16 in particular raise Cavs defensive ceiling which raised the team's ceiling so there's already precedent for what I'm suggesting.

As I've said previously, I always wondered why Cavs didn't run more sets for Love around the high post like Wolves did. They seemed to have a lot of success doing that. Would this have resulted in a dip in Cavs offense? Yeah, probably. But maybe Lebron being more involved defensively over the course of the season would've turned the tide for their 18th and 21st ranked defense. I don't think he needed to be Mutumbo to do that, just guard more good opposing players.

Jordan was mostly a scorer early in his career. Then in 88 he became one of the best help defenders in the league. But he still guarded guys like Isiah in playoff series. Then in 89 he became more of a PG given his team was lacking play making. Then in 90 he sacrificed having the ball. In 91 Finals, he had to become the PG again because Scottie was preoccupied with Magic. Later in his career, with the Bulls lacking scorers but gifted in play makers he switched back to just being a pure scorer. In 2013, after Nash went down Kobe had to become both the PG for MDA's offense and guard POA every night.

There are lots of examples of superstars changing their roles to suit the needs of the team. We just haven't seen that as much from Lebron, and those 15-18 Cavs teams were an opportunity for him to do something different to make up for a team weakness. At the very least it's an interesting what if even if it wouldn't have worked.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#176 » by falcolombardi » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:30 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:lebron lack of portability is why the cavs....defense(?) was bad?

one of the most versátile defensive players of our era lack of -defensive - portability is why a bad defensive roster was bad defensively ?

do you think if lebron left the offense to worse players and became a defensive specialist the defensive improvement would be enough to overcome the offensive drop off? (let alone inprove the team overall) you are asking lebron to be dikembe mutombo or Alonso mourning? cause that is the kind of defensive lift you are asking for

you just said that playing kyrie as the point guard was a bad idea by the celtics and then you criticize lebron for not dedicating to defense and letting kyrie run the offense instead ? who would have ran point guard then? lebron literally let kyrie take -MORE- shots than him despite being a less efficient scorer

do you think jordan would have happyly became a 3rd option behind love and kyrie amd dedicate himself to defense because the team had enough offense?


I don't think it needs to taken to extremes like you're doing here where Lebron all of a sudden becomes the 3rd option.

We saw Lebron's improved defensive effort in 16 in particular raise Cavs defensive ceiling which raised the team's ceiling so there's already precedent for what I'm suggesting.

As I've said previously, I always wondered why Cavs didn't run more sets for Love around the high post like Wolves did. They seemed to have a lot of success doing that. Would this have resulted in a dip in Cavs offense? Yeah, probably. But maybe Lebron being more involved defensively over the course of the season would've turned the tide for their 18th and 21st ranked defense. I don't think he needed to be Mutumbo to do that, just guard more good opposing players.

Jordan was mostly a scorer early in his career. Then in 88 he became one of the best help defenders in the league. But he still guarded guys like Isiah in playoff series. Then in 89 he became more of a PG given his team was lacking play making. Then in 90 he sacrificed having the ball. In 91 Finals, he had to become the PG again because Scottie was preoccupied with Magic. Later in his career, with the Bulls lacking scorers but gifted in play makers he switched back to just being a pure scorer. In 2013, after Nash went down Kobe had to become both the PG for MDA's offense and guard POA every night.

There are lots of examples of superstars changing their roles to suit the needs of the team. We just haven't seen that as much from Lebron, and those 15-18 Cavs teams were an opportunity for him to do something different to make up for a team weakness. At the very least it's an interesting what if even if it wouldn't have worked.


they could have tried somethingh different but is not like what they did was not working, in fact it worked pretty well, they made 3 finals, beat an all time great team and only lost against much more talented teams overall

the much bigger reason for losing in 2015 is that love and kyrie missed the finals (there goes the love high post point) , the much bigger reason they lost in 2017 and 2018 was a big talent disparity

even if they become a bit better overall by trading some offense for defense it wouldnt make love and kyrie be healthy in 2015 or it wouldnt stop a 73 win team from replacing Harrison barnes with Kevin durant

imagine a world where rodman and pippen missed the 96 finals, then in 98 there was a 2017 warriors esque super- superteam in the west

would we Blame jordan approach or the talent disparity for losing those finals?
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#177 » by VanWest82 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:41 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:I'm convinced VanWest doesn't actually understand the numbers we are using, otherwise he wouldn't have made 2 of the statements he just made regarding rORTG and inflation adjusted relative true-shooting. They are "relative because they account for the opponents defense," and the Cavs PS offenses were better than any of the Bulls teams even when you account for opponent strength.

In other words, VanWest wants to pretend to know more than he actually does and hence why we probably have wasted a few too many days talking to him.


You're welcome to avoid my posts in the future just as you continue to avoid actually addressing any of my points, instead opting for ad hominems. You know someone doesn't a have a good argument when...


I would take another look again. I have addressed all your points throughout this thread, I just don't think you are able to comprehend them. Furthermore, I wasn't responding to you today to begin with, I was simply having general chatter and you said the statistical evidence was a narrative. Just keep it moving man, your not wanted here.


Jesus dude. Are you speaking for all of RealGM here?

I am confused with how general chatter differs from you quoting me which is what you did initially and what I responded to. If you don't want someone to respond to you try not quoting them in the first place.

As far as me not understanding, you said Cavs offenses were better than anything MJ did. Later you qualified that to PS offenses, and then rORTGs. I've seen you use regular ORTGs in the past. You didn't provide any numbers to back up what you were referring to. How am I supposed to know exactly what you're talking about?

As far as not addressing my points, I post about the need to look at 15-18 Cavs regular season #s, and you respond by posting more postseason #s. I think the fact that Kyrie seemingly had his best regular seasons post Lebron would point to him not necessarily needing Lebron to achieve his highest level of individual success. Your post about Cavs playoff offenses vs. Kyrie's limited sample on playoff Celtics/Nets is valid but given the massive discrepancy in sample size I think it's fair to weigh the bigger sample. And again, I'd make this argument to include 15-18 Cavs regular seasons as well instead of always cherry-picking their postseasons and pretending like that's all that counts.

Whether you choose to quote me or not in the future, I'd appreciate it if you could leave out the personal stuff. Maybe I do occasionally need a refresher on the newer metrics that have come out though I don't think that's a requirement for posting here nor do I think that should entitle you to essentially call me an idiot for asking for clarification. Thanks.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#178 » by VanWest82 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:04 pm

falcolombardi wrote:they could have tried somethingh different but is not like what they did was not working, in fact it worked pretty well, they made 3 finals, beat an all time great team and only lost against much more talented teams overall

the much bigger reason for losing in 2015 is that love and kyrie missed the finals (there goes the love high post point) , the much bigger reason they lost in 2017 and 2018 was a big talent disparity

even if they become a bit better overall by trading some offense for defense it wouldnt make love and kyrie be healthy in 2015 or it wouldnt stop a 73 win team from replacing Harrison barnes with Kevin durant

imagine a world where rodman and pippen missed the 96 finals, then in 98 there was a 2017 warriors esque super- superteam in the west

would we Blame jordan approach or the talent disparity for losing those finals?


I don't think anyone blames Lebron for 2015 Finals; 2018 is arguably a different story given he punched the wall after game one and compromised any (slim) chance Cavs had to win games.

But my point here isn't just about the Finals or the playoffs for that matter. Those Cavs teams underwhelmed in the regular season every year except for 2016. Then they tried to be a flip-the-switch team for the post season which worked on offense but not defensively. I question Lebron's strategy there.

Also, if we're just talking about Finals, I think Cavs would've performed better vs. Warriors in 2017 had Lebron focused more on defense instead of trying to do everything offensively. Warriors likely would've won regardless but it might've been a fairer fight.

As I laid out in my earlier post, Jordan did alter his approach in the playoffs somewhat depending on opponent. One could argue the main reason Bulls went up 3-0 vs. Sonics was because MJ cut the head off of the snake with his defense on GP.

I'll be interested to see if/how Lebron alters his approach this season playing with someone like Westbrook. Will he be able to find new ways to impact the game? He's getting up there but I've always believed he's capable.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#179 » by Djoker » Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:06 pm

VanWest82 wrote:
Also, I find it hard to believe any of the Cavs offenses were better than 96 Bulls once you adjust for era and opponents. Maybe if you're only looking at the postseason or something and not taking opponents into account.


This.

As was pointed out earlier the second stint Cavs in 2017 and 2018 sacrificed defense for offense. A real judge of team quality is postseason net rating in which the best Jordan teams off course beat the best Lebron teams. But even that should be adjusted for opponent quality. The 2010's Eastern Conference was horrendous leading to a lot of beatdowns that inflate the relative stature of Lebron's teams in the playoffs.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan 

Post#180 » by twyzted » Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:06 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:I'm convinced VanWest doesn't actually understand the numbers we are using, otherwise he wouldn't have made 2 of the statements he just made regarding rORTG and inflation adjusted relative true-shooting. They are "relative because they account for the opponents defense," and the Cavs PS offenses were better than any of the Bulls teams even when you account for opponent strength.

In other words, VanWest wants to pretend to know more than he actually does and hence why we probably have wasted a few too many days talking to him.


You're welcome to avoid my posts in the future just as you continue to avoid actually addressing any of my points, instead opting for ad hominems. You know someone doesn't a have a good argument when...


I would take another look again. I have addressed all your points throughout this thread, I just don't think you are able to comprehend them. Furthermore, I wasn't responding to you today to begin with, I was simply having general chatter and you said the statistical evidence was a narrative. Just keep it moving man, your not wanted here.


I wouldnt go around throwing stones in glass house :roll:

Only thing you do is copy/paste from ben taylors patreon paywall or that goldstein. :roll:

Quoteing a guy and then go "ohh i wasnt talking to you" :lol: r/iamverysmart tough guy :lol:
Pennebaker wrote:Jordan lacks LeBron's mental toughness.

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