LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0

[ty 4191]

Once again, you guys are all arguing in circles over absolutely nothing. All vapid, waste of time nonsense and confirmation bias at work. Nothing more.

Lebron faced significantly better teams in the Finals, overall, than Jordan, based on SRS and other era and league adjusted measures.

And that's ALL this (now, totally inane) thread is about. Who faced better teams in the Finals?

[dcstanley]

Use Jordan and the Bulls as the antithesis of LeBron and team hopping, not the Warriors. The Warriors benefited from Steph’s ankle issues and a huge salary cap increase allowing them to sign a top free agent unlike Jordan’s situation.

is not lebron fault that the cavs got mo Williams and varejao instead of scottie pippen and horace grant

The Cavs also had one season drafting in the lottery during Lebron's first stint in Cleveland where they drafted Luke Jackson at number 10.

The Bulls had the 11th pick in the 1985 draft, the 9th pick in the 1986 draft, the 5th pick and 10th pick in the 1987 draft, the 11th pick in the 1988 draft, and the 6th pick in the 1989 draft. In the 1987 draft they selected both Pippen and Grant. That's 6 lottery picks in the first five seasons after Jordan was drafted.

[HeartBreakKid]

Use Jordan and the Bulls as the antithesis of LeBron and team hopping, not the Warriors. The Warriors benefited from Steph’s ankle issues and a huge salary cap increase allowing them to sign a top free agent unlike Jordan’s situation.

is not lebron fault that the cavs got mo Williams and varejao instead of scottie pippen and horace grant

The Cavs also had one season drafting in the lottery during Lebron's first stint in Cleveland where they drafted Luke Jackson at number 10.

The Bulls had the 11th pick in the 1985 draft, the 9th pick in the 1986 draft, the 5th pick and 10th pick in the 1987 draft, the 11th pick in the 1988 draft, and the 6th pick in the 1989 draft. In the 1987 draft they selected both Pippen and Grant. That's 6 lottery picks in the first five seasons after Jordan was drafted.

yeah exactly. it's silly to make it seem like the bulls and cavs had the same level of talent "organically".

[mcraft]

Use Jordan and the Bulls as the antithesis of LeBron and team hopping, not the Warriors. The Warriors benefited from Steph’s ankle issues and a huge salary cap increase allowing them to sign a top free agent unlike Jordan’s situation.

is not lebron fault that the cavs got mo Williams and varejao instead of scottie pippen and horace grant

The Cavs also had one season drafting in the lottery during Lebron's first stint in Cleveland where they drafted Luke Jackson at number 10.

The Bulls had the 11th pick in the 1985 draft, the 9th pick in the 1986 draft, the 5th pick and 10th pick in the 1987 draft, the 11th pick in the 1988 draft, and the 6th pick in the 1989 draft. In the 1987 draft they selected both Pippen and Grant. That's 6 lottery picks in the first five seasons after Jordan was drafted.

I didn’t realize the Bulls had so many high draft picks after Jordan got there. That’s crazy. I think as inept as the Cav’s front office is they could have got some better players to put around LeBron with that many lottery picks.

[JN61]

Last time I checked 4<6 and 4/10 < 6/10. So no it is not. Also when you think of all the HOF/all-star caliber/hell even good teammates they had during those runs it's not even close:

Jordan:
Pippen
Grant
Rodman
Kukoc
BJ Armstrong
Harper (way over the hill)
Kerr
Paxson

And when you look into their career achievements with and without Jordan:

WIthout:
5x all-star
1x all-nba 1st team
2x all-nba 3rd team
7x all defensive 1st team
3x all-defensive 2nd team
1x all-rookie first team
1x all-rookie 2nd team

WIth:
6x all-star
3x all-nba 1st team
2x all-nba 2nd team
2x all-nba 3rd team
7x all-defensive 1st team
2x all-defensive 2nd team
1x 6th man of the year

And then Looking into the best teammates of Lebron during that timespan:
Wade
Davis
Irving
Bosh
Love
Ray Allen (way over the hill)
Big Z
Mo Williams

Without:
39x all-star
5x all-nba 1st team
7x all-nba 2nd team
3x all-nba 3rd team
1x all-defensive 1st team
5x all-defensive 2nd team
x 6th man of the year
1x ROY
5x all-rookie first team
2x all-rookie 2nd team

With:
18x all-star
1x all-nba 1st team
1x all-nba 2nd team
3x all-nba 3rd team
1x all-defensive 1st team
x all-defensive 2nd team
x 6th man of the year

Lebron has just massive 18 vs 6 all-stars on his team advantage here on the best teammates category. And some of these all-stars for Jordan's teammates are outside of his 6-0 run which makes it even more sad when people try perk up their crush Lebron. Supporting cast Lebron has had during his run is just superior to Jordan. Jordan had Pippen as better player for longer but Wade career wise is ranked higher for most people, Lebron just sucked most of air out of him by dominating the ball and not letting Wade be Wade and last few years Wade then diminished similar to last (and first years) few years of Pippen.

[HeartBreakKid]

Last time I checked 4<6 and 4/10 < 6/10. So no it is not. Also when you think of all the HOF/all-star caliber/hell even good teammates they had during those runs it's not even close:

Jordan:
Pippen
Grant
Rodman
Kukoc
BJ Armstrong
Harper (way over the hill)
Kerr
Paxson

And when you look into their career achievements with and without Jordan:

WIthout:
5x all-star
1x all-nba 1st team
2x all-nba 3rd team
7x all defensive 1st team
3x all-defensive 2nd team
1x all-rookie first team
1x all-rookie 2nd team

WIth:
6x all-star
3x all-nba 1st team
2x all-nba 2nd team
2x all-nba 3rd team
7x all-defensive 1st team
2x all-defensive 2nd team
1x 6th man of the year

And then Looking into the best teammates of Lebron during that timespan:
Wade
Davis
Irving
Bosh
Love
Ray Allen (way over the hill)
Big Z
Mo Williams

Without:
39x all-star
5x all-nba 1st team
7x all-nba 2nd team
3x all-nba 3rd team
1x all-defensive 1st team
5x all-defensive 2nd team
x 6th man of the year
1x ROY
5x all-rookie first team
2x all-rookie 2nd team

With:
18x all-star
1x all-nba 1st team
1x all-nba 2nd team
3x all-nba 3rd team
1x all-defensive 1st team
x all-defensive 2nd team
x 6th man of the year

Lebron has just massive 18 vs 6 all-stars on his team advantage here on the best teammates category. And some of these all-stars for Jordan's teammates are outside of his 6-0 run which makes it even more sad when people try perk up their crush Lebron. Supporting cast Lebron has had during his run is just superior to Jordan. Jordan had Pippen as better player for longer but Wade career wise is ranked higher for most people, Lebron just sucked most of air out of him by dominating the ball and not letting Wade be Wade and last few years Wade then diminished similar to last (and first years) few years of Pippen.

Wade had nearly identical stats as Lebron when they played together the first season. Not true at all he "sucked the air out of Wade". Lebron James didn't make Dwayne Wade any worse...and if he did, why did they win titles then?

Also, are you not aware that Dwayne Wade has no meniscus in his knees? Are you intentionally pretending that is why he did not decline?



Lebron James played with more all-stars because he's been on more franchises....he also plays in an era where the title contenders have multiple all-stars. The 90s is pretty much the only era where there weren't teams that had two top ten players regularly playing with each other for a long period of time....other than MJ and Pippen lol.

Competition is relative, there is a reason why the Bulls didn't win rings in the 80s - the standard for what is a championship level team was totally different.

[Texas Chuck]

I think its intellectually dishonest to count accolade seasons away from Lebron as some big point in Mike's favor when Lebron played 4 seasons with Wade. 4 seasons with Bosh. 3 seasons with Kyrie. 2 seasons with AD.

I mean seriously?

Of course I know not to take it seriously when later in the same post you say "your crush Lebron".

[VanWest82]

Once again, you guys are all arguing in circles over absolutely nothing. All vapid, waste of time nonsense and confirmation bias at work. Nothing more.

Lebron faced significantly better teams in the Finals, overall, than Jordan, based on SRS and other era and league adjusted measures.

And that's ALL this (now, totally inane) thread is about. Who faced better teams in the Finals?

No it's not. OPer is comparing Finals records and a big part of that comparison is the fact that Lebron made more Finals which allowed him to face more good teams.

As soon as you acknowledge that then you have to start asking questions like "why did Lebron make so many Finals?" Was it because he repeatedly tried to stack the deck in his favor? Was part of it that he played in an historically weak conference for the better part of a decade where he didn't have to worry about things like playing hard all year to secure home court?

Finals opponent quality in relation to one's own team quality should be part of the discussion here but it certainly isn't the only thing.

[ty 4191]

No it's not. OPer is comparing Finals records and a big part of that comparison is the fact that Lebron made more Finals which allowed him to face more good teams.

As soon as you acknowledge that then you have to start asking questions like "why did Lebron make so many Finals?" Was it because he repeatedly tried to stack the deck in his favor? Was part of it that he played in an historically weak conference for the better part of a decade where he didn't have to worry about things like playing hard all year to secure home court?

Finals opponent quality in relation to one's own team quality should be part of the discussion here but it certainly isn't the only thing.

1.Re: "It's not the only thing." You're correct. I agree, actually. I am just sick of never ending anecdotal, totally unconvincing, ancillary arguments about one year, or a few years, instead of comparing who had better teammates, who played in a tougher division/conference, and who faced better teams, overall, in the playoffs and finals.

All this tripe thrown about between posters here for weeks, with zero hard data/statistical evidence to back it up.

That's why I started this discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2135772

2. DID Lebron James repeatedly try to stack the deck (or have it stacked) in his favor?

3. Yes. James played in an Eastern Conference that had a .431 winning percentage, overall, against the Western Conference 2004-2018. So, yes, this is true. The Eastern Conference had a .508 winning percentage, overall, against the Western Conference from 1985-1998.

[ty 4191]

Competition is relative, there is a reason why the Bulls didn't win rings in the 80s - the standard for what is a championship level team was totally different.

Yes, because the 80's were far more competitive, overall, than the 90's. Correct?

Is this what you're saying?

[Ballerhogger]

Once again, you guys are all arguing in circles over absolutely nothing. All vapid, waste of time nonsense and confirmation bias at work. Nothing more.

Lebron faced significantly better teams in the Finals, overall, than Jordan, based on SRS and other era and league adjusted measures.

And that's ALL this (now, totally inane) thread is about. Who faced better teams in the Finals?

ahhaha pretty much

[VanWest82]

No it's not. OPer is comparing Finals records and a big part of that comparison is the fact that Lebron made more Finals which allowed him to face more good teams.

As soon as you acknowledge that then you have to start asking questions like "why did Lebron make so many Finals?" Was it because he repeatedly tried to stack the deck in his favor? Was part of it that he played in an historically weak conference for the better part of a decade where he didn't have to worry about things like playing hard all year to secure home court?

Finals opponent quality in relation to one's own team quality should be part of the discussion here but it certainly isn't the only thing.

1.Re: "It's not the only thing." You're correct. I agree, actually. I am just sick of never ending anecdotal, totally unconvincing, ancillary arguments about one year, or a few years, instead of comparing who had better teammates, who played in a tougher division/conference, and who faced better teams, overall, in the playoffs and finals.

All this tripe thrown about between posters here for weeks, with zero hard data/statistical evidence to back it up.

That's why I started this discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2135772

2. DID Lebron James repeatedly try to stack the deck (or have it stacked) in his favor?

3. Yes. James played in an Eastern Conference that had a .431 winning percentage, overall, against the Western Conference 2004-2018. So, yes, this is true. The Eastern Conference had a .508 winning percentage, overall, against the Western Conference from 1985-1998.

It's difficult to get into these debates without resorting to some degree of observational argument. Even in the thread you just started, how do we account for the fact that Lebron is more ball dominant than MJ was post 89? Naturally that's going to skew any teammate analysis in Lebron's favor because the whole point of the triangle was to force MJ's teammates to become threats whereas the main drawback of Lebron ball is his teams generally have nothing to fall back on when he isn't out there making plays.

Also, are we sure we're able to accurately track impact statistically of a HOF vet? This is one area Lebron has undeniably benefited from more than MJ due to increased player movement and guys playing longer generally. Ben Wallace, Shaq, Ray Allen, Rondo, Dwight, Gasol, plus guys like Antawn, Joe Smith, Wally, Big Z, Birdman, Bibby, Miller, UD, Stack, Juwan, Battier, James Jones, Rashard, Frye, RJ, Marion, Perk, Korver, DWill, Bogut, Jeff Green, DRose, DWade, Danny Green, Wes Matthews, Melo,...

Whatever the individual, measurable on court contributions of that collective group their actual overall contributions to winning a title was surely greater. I don't know how to accurately measure that and I don't think anyone does, but I am pretty sure it's real given we see the trend not only on Lebron's teams but on other winning teams across many sports. So I guess I'm saying it's just really tough to quantify this stuff which is why there's so much ancillary discussion.

[SNPA]

No it's not. OPer is comparing Finals records and a big part of that comparison is the fact that Lebron made more Finals which allowed him to face more good teams.

As soon as you acknowledge that then you have to start asking questions like "why did Lebron make so many Finals?" Was it because he repeatedly tried to stack the deck in his favor? Was part of it that he played in an historically weak conference for the better part of a decade where he didn't have to worry about things like playing hard all year to secure home court?

Finals opponent quality in relation to one's own team quality should be part of the discussion here but it certainly isn't the only thing.

1.Re: "It's not the only thing." You're correct. I agree, actually. I am just sick of never ending anecdotal, totally unconvincing, ancillary arguments about one year, or a few years, instead of comparing who had better teammates, who played in a tougher division/conference, and who faced better teams, overall, in the playoffs and finals.

All this tripe thrown about between posters here for weeks, with zero hard data/statistical evidence to back it up.

That's why I started this discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2135772

2. DID Lebron James repeatedly try to stack the deck (or have it stacked) in his favor?

3. Yes. James played in an Eastern Conference that had a .431 winning percentage, overall, against the Western Conference 2004-2018. So, yes, this is true. The Eastern Conference had a .508 winning percentage, overall, against the Western Conference from 1985-1998.

It's difficult to get into these debates without resorting to some degree of observational argument. Even in the thread you just started, how do we account for the fact that Lebron is more ball dominant than MJ was post 89? Naturally that's going to skew any teammate analysis in Lebron's favor because the whole point of the triangle was to force MJ's teammates to become threats whereas the main drawback of Lebron ball is his teams generally have nothing to fall back on when he isn't out there making plays.

Also, are we sure we're able to accurately track impact statistically of a HOF vet? This is one area Lebron has undeniably benefited from more than MJ due to increased player movement and guys playing longer generally. Ben Wallace, Shaq, Ray Allen, Rondo, Dwight, Gasol, plus guys like Antawn, Joe Smith, Wally, Big Z, Birdman, Bibby, Miller, UD, Stack, Juwan, Battier, James Jones, Rashard, Frye, RJ, Marion, Perk, Korver, DWill, Bogut, Jeff Green, DRose, DWade, Danny Green, Wes Matthews, Melo,...

Whatever the individual, measurable on court contributions of that collective group their actual overall contributions to winning a title was surely greater. I don't know how to accurately measure that and I don't think anyone does, but I am pretty sure it's real given we see the trend not only on Lebron's teams but on other winning teams across many sports. So I guess I'm saying it's just really tough to quantify this stuff which is why there's so much ancillary discussion.

Yeah, it’s weird. It’s like not everything can be reduced to “ hard data/statistical evidence.” Totally bizarre how sometimes you have to know what you’re seeing and have the experience and wisdom to put it into context without relying on a mathematical formula to capture the nuance (which it never does). Strange that.

[ty 4191]

Also, are we sure we're able to accurately track impact statistically of a HOF vet?

There's an entire field of analytics dedicated to it. Ask "Elgee" aka Ben Taylor of Backpicks, for one.

Whatever the individual, measurable on court contributions of that collective group their actual overall contributions to winning a title was surely greater. I don't know how to accurately measure that and I don't think anyone does, but I am pretty sure it's real given we see the trend not only on Lebron's teams but on other winning teams across many sports. So I guess I'm saying it's just really tough to quantify this stuff which is why there's so much ancillary discussion.

People would argue that we can actually quantify- quite precisely- who was better, and who had better teammates, especially in the Plus Minus Era (1997-present). It just takes a ton of effort, time, and attention.

[stormi]

Lebron beating the 73-9 Warriors will forever trump anything Jordan did in his career.

Statpadding championships against Shawn Kemp and Charles Barkley isn't moving us.

[SNPA]

People would argue that we can actually quantify- quite precisely- who was better, and who had better teammates, especially in the Plus Minus Era (1997-present). It just takes a ton of effort, time, and attention.

Agreed. And those people would be wrong…and likely insufferable. This mindset demonstrates a misunderstanding of how humans work in complex environments and the nature of basketball and eras.

[VanWest82]

Lebron beating the 73-9 Warriors will forever trump anything Jordan did in his career.

Statpadding championships against Shawn Kemp and Charles Barkley isn't moving us.

Maybe if Lebron had beaten those Warriors with a healthy Curry and Bogut we could say that and perhaps we can say that anyway (I wouldn't), but framing it as Lebron beat a 73 win team is one of those narrative arguments which is designed to specifically gloss over the important details, namely that they never would've won anywhere close to 73 games had Bogut been out and Curry had to play on a partially torn MCL all year.

[ty 4191]

Those people would be wrong…and likely insufferable. This mindset demonstrates a misunderstanding of how humans work in complex environments and the nature of basketball and eras.

What does this even mean?

You like people utterly BS-ing and (only) inducing Recency and or Confirmation Bias endlessly? Endless drivel and palaver?

[VanWest82]

Here are two other considerations worthy of debate. How do we factor in the lockout in 2011 and pandemic in 2020? Lebron benefitted from both outlier seasons albeit for different reasons.

Celtics were probably Heat's biggest challenger in the East in 2012 but as an old team they really struggled with that crazy condensed schedule. It's hard to argue those guys were in tip top shape by the time the playoffs rolled around. I'd say the same thing about the ageing Spurs. Would Heat have won had Spurs made it that year? Heat had their own issues with Bosh getting hurt but fundamentally they were a younger team that was better able to withstand all the 4 in 6 nights stuff and get through the season in one piece.

2020 Lakers looked like they were shot out of a cannon in the bubble. They had clearly benefitted from the time off and looked like they'd been able to continue practicing together. Many stars/teams weren't able to do that due to lockdowns and looked significantly worse than they had months earlier.

It's unclear how much either of these circumstances impacted the end result but one could certainly make a case Lebron specifically benefitted both times.

[SNPA]

Those people would be wrong…and likely insufferable. This mindset demonstrates a misunderstanding of how humans work in complex environments and the nature of basketball and eras.

What does this even mean?

You like people utterly BS-ing and (only) inducing Recency and or Confirmation Bias endlessly? Endless drivel and palaver?

It means what it says. Lol

Human behavior is complex and not reducible to quantitative formulas. This leap you keep making from if it isn’t quantitive it must be tripe/drivel/bias etc is exactly what I’m referring to as insufferable. There is this thing called wisdom, it’s different than data.

Further, a quantitative argumentation in a basketball context is anything but immune to bias. It’s merely arguing bias using numbers instead of words.