RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Bill Russell)

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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#161 » by 70sFan » Wed Jul 12, 2023 2:48 pm

ijspeelman wrote:
70sFan wrote:What games from pre-LA career have you seen? I don't think we have 6-8 pre-Lakers Wilt games available.


I used to have all the games on a playlist on YouTube, but a lot of my videos in that playlist have been deleted.

On YouTube, I only found 4 (partial games which I should have clarified).






I was under the impression there were more. I remember the channel called "Wilt Chamberlain Archive" having full NBA games there, but I'm either completely mistaken or they were taken down.

70sFan wrote:Agree with Shaq, disagree with Hakeem. Hakeem clogged the lane just as much as Wilt and he didn't provide the same value as a lob finisher and offensive rebounder. You may argue that he had some value due to the shooting advantage, but it's not a significant part of Hakeem's game.

It's also important to mention that Hakeem was one of the most one side (left block) reliant volume post players I have ever tracked. Wilt also liked the left block more, but not to the same degree.


I need to do more film research for Hakeem in general, especially for this project so I may just be mistaken with his movement. Feel free to send any clips for Wilt, Hakeem, or anyone.

I will share clips and more footage in general next week.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#162 » by lessthanjake » Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:37 pm

Following up on my prior post about the huge “shot quality” increase with Steph on the floor, I want to dig a little more into why/how that happens. When we drill down into it, we find that the reason Steph’s teammates’ average so much higher shot quality with him on the floor is primarily because they get a way higher percent of their FGAs at the rim when Steph is on the floor. Using the method I described in my earlier post, here’s some numbers for the average increase in percent-of-FGAs-at-the-rim for teammates when certain players are on or off the court. As you’ll see in the below numbers, Steph is a complete outlier, even as compared to the greatest passers of the era. And this actually makes sense. He has so much gravity, creates so much defensive confusion with his off-ball movement, and gets doubled on the pick and roll so far out that he just constantly creates immense space for his teammates to utilize to manufacture shots at the rim:

Average Increase in Teammates’ Rim Shot Frequency with Player on the Floor (only counting teammates with 1,000+ minutes with the player)

1. Steph Curry (2014-2015 to 2018-2019): +11.89%

2. Steph Curry (2014-2015 to 2022-2023): +9.32%

3. Nikola Jokic (2020-2021 to 2022-2023): +6.90%

4. Draymond Green (2014-2015 to 2022-2023): +4.80%

5. Steve Nash (2004-2005 to 2011-2012): +3.28%

6. LeBron James (2014-2015 to 2017-2018): +2.77%

7. Shaquille O’Neal (2000-2001 to 2003-2004): +2.23%

8. Kobe Bryant (2000-2001 to 2009-2010):: +1.91%

9. Tim Duncan (2000-2001 to 2006-2007): +1.70%

10. James Harden (2012-2013 to 2019-2020): +1.32%

11. LeBron James (2005-2006 to 2009-2010): +1.26%

12. Luka Doncic (2019-2020 to 2022-2023): +0.20%

13. Giannis Antetokounmpo (2019-2020 to 2022-2023): -0.55%

14. Chris Paul (2011-2012 to 2016-2017): -0.6%

15. LeBron James (2010-2011 to 2013-2014): -1.08%


Shots at the rim are the best shots in basketball. And Steph increases his teammates’ ability to generate them in a completely outlier-like fashion. And I think this goes to the point that, in my view, Steph is the greatest playmaker of his generation, and perhaps the greatest playmaker in the history of basketball. We see this in data like this, in impact data, and in a close look at film.

And I think that this shouldn’t be surprising to people. Basketball is ultimately a game about shooting the basketball into the hoop. Steph Curry is easily the best in history at doing that. The fact that that outlier ability at the game’s most fundamental skill would radically warp defenses in a way that breaks them is not at all surprising.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#163 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 12, 2023 5:06 pm

70sFan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:What about defense? I think it's critical to make a distinction:

Are we judging Shaq based on how effective he actually was on defense in general?, or,
Are we scouting him based on his weaknesses...which are much more glaring when viewed back from this pace & space era?

I scoured Shaq defense more for his era than modern era and I still came up underwhelmed - bad fundamentals, weak timing, very low motor, a lot of dumb fouls, poor positioning and many missed contests.

I'm not saying he was bad defender, he had his value due to the size and post defense, but he's not even close to a great defender even in his era that suited him more than any other era.


Appreciate your analysis.

I think what I see in general with Shaq is that there were exploits to use against him on both sides of the floor that really didn't get used against him reliably.

On offense, that exploit was flopping. In the modern era, when you're overpowered, you just flop and there's a solid chance refs are going to fall for it. Most guys trying to guard Shaq back in the time actually tried to sincerely defend him, and with the action the refs let Shaq take, there really wasn't a way to stop his power. I have complicated feelings about all this because I hate flopping.

On defense, well, I think that in general he did have positive defensive impact - not at Duncan's level of course - but I think in a savvier era with better shooting, that would flip negative - assuming of course we get exactly the same Shaq. If Shaq's defense became a serious weakness early in his career, he and his teams might have grown differently.

70sFan wrote:
You talk about being raised stories from people watching from the time, and you're effectively pointing out a blind spot they had that wasn't all that applicable when they were actually watching Shaq except in rare exceptions. However this stacks up in one's personal GOAT assessment, what's undeniable is that at the time it was so freaking scary that teams stocked up on bigs and eventually made rule changes specifically to curtail what Shaq was doing...which the '03-04 Pistons are often pointed to as exploiting.


I often wondered how much truth it is within these stories about signing 7 feet scrubs just for Shaq. It was a normal thing for teams back then to get at least one big body for post defense. Shaq definitely influenced some of these choices, but I doubt the league would look much different without him.


Hmm. Well first I'll say that I very much believe that all of these major American sports leagues are copycat leagues. When a champion emerges that seems like more than a one-off, teams shift how they do things. Part of that means adopting similar strategy, part of that means adopting counterstrategies.

I can assure you that for several years the entire league was focused on how to stop Shaq. That definitely included defensive strategy by individual teams. It included the illegal defense rule changes which served many purposes, but part of the sell on it was to find new ways to stop Shaq. Along the way it certainly made teams think about their roster and who they'd be using not just be their Shaq defender...but who was going to defend Shaq when the first guy was out for foul trouble.

I don't know that I have a satisfying way of demonstrating mathematically that more bigs were getting drafted because of the threat of Shaq, but we can at least look at free throws, which is a proxy for defenses taking fouls so long as a guy isn't flopping to get to the line...which Shaq wasn't.

Shaq had huge FTA numbers in the regular season of course, but it was the playoffs where teams were really focused here.

If we take the list of guys with the most FTA per 100 possessions in all of playoff history, Shaq has the career lead at 15.3 FTA/100. Duncan checks in at 10.1 FTA/100.

If we go by peak year Shaq again tops the list with a 19.8. Duncan's clocks in at 14.9, which is of course less than Shaq's career average.

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying Shaq was better on offense because he got more free throws - hell, you wanted to avoid Shaq taking free throw so everyone one of those attempts is kind of a bad thing. Only that all of those free throws come from fouls on Shaq, you need people to take those fouls, mostly that was opposing bigs, and since they only get 6 per game, that meant they tended to foul out and a team planning ahead thus knew they literally couldn't use one guy defending Shaq all game, and they needed someone else on the roster who could plausibly do it.

Of course now we know they probably should have just been putting smaller guys on Shaq who flop on defense and burn him with quickness on the other side of the court, but back then, that wasn't the dominant approach.

70sFan wrote:
The league really never saw what Duncan as doing as the same time up league-warping effect, and frankly, I think they were correct in their assessment. Doesn't mean Duncan wasn't overall more impactful, but it wasn't just the imagination of people watching the game that Shaq was the more unstoppable force, the whole NBA felt that way.

I don't know, teams treated Duncan very tough back in the early 2000s. I think they also overreacted a little bit, but it doesn't change the fact that Duncan was actually seen as the dominant inside force.

To get to some +/- stuff, let me point this out. If we rank the best 9 year post-season per48 on/off from the TB database, here's the top 5:

1. Shaq ('97-05) +15.4
2. LeBron ('12-21) +15.0
3. Garnett ('01-13) +14.4
4. Kidd ('02-10) +12.5
5. Ginobili ('04-12) +11.9

Now, does that trump all other stats in the same family? Nah. I'm all for bringing up stuff like RAPM, but I do think it's important to take note when raw stuff goes in another direction.

When you say there's nothing to indicate that Shaq had a level of impact that matched/surpassed other bigs, I would say that's not true. There are certainly indicators that go in that direction, just as I'll acknowledge indicators that go Duncan's way.

If one stat from the same family gives Shaq edge, but another one gives Duncan the edge, then I don't conclude it with " well it indicates that Shaq was on another level than Duncan" or the other way around. It is another reason to believe that theu were actually on similar level.


Fair point. My point here was not that I had statistical proof of Shaq's superior impact, but that a notion that Duncan actually had the clear cut edge is a reach.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#164 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 12, 2023 5:35 pm

70sFan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:That lasted from 1999 to 2001. After the Spurs got humiliated in the 2001 playoffs, Shaq was clearly seen as THE player of the era, and while Duncan's later titles helped his career case, nothing he did really made most think he was Shaq's equal in prime.

So it lasted in 1999-01, then the Spurs lost and Shaq got the edge, but then Duncan outplayed him in two consecutive years... I don't know, I think you don't look at this objectively Doc.

I have KG, LeBron & Bowen.

While I do believe Duncan was wronged a few years earlier when Bowen became the guy getting DPOY love from the Spurs, once we get beyond a certain point Bowen had a pretty consistent defensive +/- edge from what I see. Duncan played a bit more minutes which helps some, but it's not really a gigantic edge.


Cool, but Duncan had significantly more important role on the Spurs than Bowen and the Spurs defense certainly wasn't built around Bruce either. Plus minus aren't everything.

I won't comment LeBron, it's not something I can agree with at all. Duncan was closer to Garnett in 2008 than anyone was to Duncan in my opinion and the truth is that he's not remembered that way because he lost (unlike KG).


Reasonable points with Duncan vs Bowen. Were I asked in general who was the more valuable defense, someone great in a Duncan-role or someone in a Bowen-role, I'd point to the Duncan. I also don't want to act like +/- is everything.

At the same time, as a defensive big falls from peak, there comes a point where his impact can drop below a perimeter guy, right? While that in theory could never be relevant on Duncan's Spurs, we should have a sense for what it would take.

With Duncan what I see in general is that in his prime he has the +/- advantage, and then he loses it. He never stops being valuable, and thus essential to that contending team that eventually broke through again with a glorious chip in 2014, but I don't see a reason to put him as the most valuable defender on the team indefinitely.

If you have an argument for a particular threshold that just never gets reached, I'd like to know what that threshold is.

70sFan wrote:
In 2009 you have him as a Top 3 DPOY. In that year, the team had a better DRtg in both the regular & post season with him on the bench, and this was dramatically so in their 1st round upset to the Mavs. Does this concern you?

It does, which is why I said "probably" and not "certainly".

In 2013 & 2014 there are minutes issues particularly in the regular season, but clearly I can get looking past that if you're just focused on the playoffs. Thing is, wasn't Kawhi Leonard the more resilient playoff defender those years? The github single year playoffs RAPM gives Kawhi the stronger DRAPM both years, and if I do a similar count to 2009 where I ask "For whom was the on-court DRtg better than the team's overall DRtg?" for those playoffs, I get a count of Kawhi 6 to Duncan 4. (I'll note that I have Kawhi in my Top 3 DPOY both year.)

No, I don't think Kawhi was more resilient than Duncan. I also suggest not using this database, their results aren't reliable.


What should I use instead?

Also, I completely get concerns about specific RAPM sources and would appreciate your thoughts on who is more reliable and why.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#165 » by rk2023 » Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:18 pm

lessthanjake wrote:
Spoiler:
Following up on my prior post about the huge “shot quality” increase with Steph on the floor, I want to dig a little more into why/how that happens. When we drill down into it, we find that the reason Steph’s teammates’ average so much higher shot quality with him on the floor is primarily because they get a way higher percent of their FGAs at the rim when Steph is on the floor. Using the method I described in my earlier post, here’s some numbers for the average increase in percent-of-FGAs-at-the-rim for teammates when certain players are on or off the court. As you’ll see in the below numbers, Steph is a complete outlier, even as compared to the greatest passers of the era. And this actually makes sense. He has so much gravity, creates so much defensive confusion with his off-ball movement, and gets doubled on the pick and roll so far out that he just constantly creates immense space for his teammates to utilize to manufacture shots at the rim:

Average Increase in Teammates’ Rim Shot Frequency with Player on the Floor (only counting teammates with 1,000+ minutes with the player)

1. Steph Curry (2014-2015 to 2018-2019): +11.89%

2. Steph Curry (2014-2015 to 2022-2023): +9.32%

3. Nikola Jokic (2020-2021 to 2022-2023): +6.90%

4. Draymond Green (2014-2015 to 2022-2023): +4.80%

5. Steve Nash (2004-2005 to 2011-2012): +3.28%

6. LeBron James (2014-2015 to 2017-2018): +2.77%

7. Shaquille O’Neal (2000-2001 to 2003-2004): +2.23%

8. Kobe Bryant (2000-2001 to 2009-2010):: +1.91%

9. Tim Duncan (2000-2001 to 2006-2007): +1.70%

10. James Harden (2012-2013 to 2019-2020): +1.32%

11. LeBron James (2005-2006 to 2009-2010): +1.26%

12. Luka Doncic (2019-2020 to 2022-2023): +0.20%

13. Giannis Antetokounmpo (2019-2020 to 2022-2023): -0.55%

14. Chris Paul (2011-2012 to 2016-2017): -0.6%

15. LeBron James (2010-2011 to 2013-2014): -1.08%


Shots at the rim are the best shots in basketball. And Steph increases his teammates’ ability to generate them in a completely outlier-like fashion. And I think this goes to the point that, in my view, Steph is the greatest playmaker of his generation, and perhaps the greatest playmaker in the history of basketball. We see this in data like this, in impact data, and in a close look at film.

And I think that this shouldn’t be surprising to people. Basketball is ultimately a game about shooting the basketball into the hoop. Steph Curry is easily the best in history at doing that. The fact that that outlier ability at the game’s most fundamental skill would radically warp defenses in a way that breaks them is not at all surprising.


Would you mind compiling OKC Westbrook and Luka’s values in this regard?
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#166 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:32 pm

ZeppelinPage wrote:Besides the ridiculousness of simply looking at team ratings from 60+ years ago with zero context and determining a players worth on offense based solely on that--I do find it comical that their highest finish in ORtg listed is literally the season where the coach instructed Wilt to shoot 40 times a game in order to prevent his offensively-inept teammates from missing more shots.


So, a few things I feel a need to respond to here.

The first is that word "ridiculousness". Please try to avoid such language. So it's clear, I spent a lot of time yesterday talking to others by PM to emphasize the need to keep things light and positive, so this isn't me taking issue with your wording out of the blue as if you are the problem, so much as wanting to make sure it's clear that we're doing our best wherever we see things escalate to ease it back down. I know from personal experience that when others get more aggressive, I tend to get more aggressive too. In the absence of moderation it doesn't just seem acceptable but necessary. But we're really trying here because we know from prior experience how pissed off we can get with each other over a course of 100 threads. Please feel free to PM me about this.

The second is my sense that you've seen more of the past than most, and you're frustrated with people jumping in half a century after the fact thinking they know better. If that's the case, that's an understandable feeling and I want to be clear that I think everyone should listen to those who were around at the time when the events in question were actually occurring. I want to here your experiences and thoughts, and I'm glad you're in this project.

For the final part, I'm going to focus on Seth's wording. It's relevant to your point, but I'm going to aim it specifically at what he said just because those quotes give me a lot I feel I need to point out. Feel free of course to continue the conversation from there, or to emphasize your own wordings instead.

ZeppelinPage wrote:I've always found Seth Partnow, formerly of Nylon Calculus and previous Director of Basketball Research for the Milwaukee Bucks, to have a simple but apt perspective on the idea that Wilt's volume scoring was directly creating poor offensive team ratings:
Read on Twitter


I find Seth in general to be a bit light on basketball intuition - in fairness, that's how I see most statisticians - and specifically light on understanding the aspects of the game that pertain to team synergy. He's also someone who hasn't done anywhere near as much historical research as many of us on these boards - I've seen him say stuff pertaining to the '90s that makes me shake my head. He's intelligent and at times insightful, but he has limitations - as do we all of course - and when he starts making the comparison to Jokic, he really, really shows them imho.

Now, generally, what Seth is doing here is saying that it's impossible for a player to have positive scoring data in the box score and not be valuable unless there's bad coaching strategy, and we should not hold bad coaching strategy against the player.

I'll say first that the question of how to handle sub-optimal coaching when evaluating a GOAT list is a tricky thing, and that there's room for philosophical divergence between knowledgeable people. I've dealt with this a lot with guys like Nash & Garnett who I do not believe were optimally used for much of their career. This relates to why I for a number of years ranked Garnett ahead of Duncan - I think Garnett's better at basketball if you just use him with strategies we know to be more optimal today.

While I now am ranking Duncan ahead of Garnett - for criteria reasons I've already gone into but can elaborate upon here if requested - I'd certainly respect an argument for Garnett over Duncan based on these reasons still, and something analogous can be applied to Wilt.

With my Duncan > Garnett perspective though for this iteration of the project, the same thing that's going to hold back Garnett is going to hold back Wilt, regardless of how much it was just about the coaches telling him to do the wrong thing.

All that can be agree to disagree stuff, but the thing that really bothers me about Seth's approach here is that he's not bothering to consider the scale of how Wilt's scoring/passing tradeoff changed, and even begin to think about why on earth coaches would do this, let alone why it turned out to be a good idea.

Let me put in perspective like this. If we look at some great players and look at their peak & nadir of ratio between True Shooting Attempts and Assists, here's what we get:

Player: Peak, Nadir
LeBron: 4.2, 2.2
Kareem: 7.8, 3.6
Jordan: 8.0, 3.4
Wilt: 19.8, 2.4
Russell: 8.8, 2.2
Duncan: 8.1, 4.8
Hakeem: 12.3, 6.4
Shaq: 10.8, 6.4
Magic: 2.1, 1.0
Kobe: 7.3, 4.1
Garnett: 5.8, 3.5

I've bolded Wilt and am looking to emphasize how extreme Wilt's variance is here. In a nutshell: This is the furthest thing from normal, and it raises the question of Why?

Some clearly would try to argue that it's because Wilt was so incredibly versatile he could dominate in many different ways, and certainly there's some truth to that, but the same is frankly true of a number of these guys and you still don't see anything so extreme from them.

For me, I just keep going back to a fundamental basketball thing:

If you're taking what the defense will give you, then you shouldn't have a shoot-mode vs an assist-mode when you have the ball that takes place over extended periods of time like this. You make the best play. If they put to much individual pressure on you, exploit that with a pass, when they ease up, exploit it with scoring.

I understand that Wilt was told to go for maximum points in '61-62, but he wasn't being told to go for maximum points in, say, '65-66, so why is it in '66-67 he dropped from being the guy who shot more FGA than anyone else on the team per minute to 9th out of 11 the next? And why did it work so, so much better? (Note, by TSA Wilt's a bit higher than 9th and I can calculate that if requested.)

Regardless of what we conclude for the RealGM 100, to me those questions are the most important thing for people to be asking and trying to understand.

And this is unfortunately the type of analysis that Seth never gets to when he approaches history like this.

Mind you, approaching history more robustly probably won't help him much with his career. Being able to do things for the present and future are more valuable for a statistician, and he's done that well enough to carve out a career which is no small thing. But the way he doesn't even get to the important basketball question before he rolls his eyes and moves on is, to me, a real sign of the constraints to his knowledge he's put around himself that will keep him from growing further, and I see that as a wasted opportunity.

Back to you Zep: I'm not alleging that these same limitations are on you. I know you care more about history than Seth does. Nevertheless, the question I emphasized still remains:

If Wilt were capable of achieving a normal balance between shooting & passing that was optimal in his environment based on what the defense gave him, why the drastic swings? I don't think it's realistic to think that when Hannum comes in in 1996 he insisted that Wilt shoot way less than everyone else. I think he gave Wilt a new focus, and this is what happened. A player already recognizing passing opportunities and making them as a matter of course wouldn't have seen such a drastic swing simply, but with Wilt it did, and that swing would go far more extreme in the years to come.

Now, I'd be remiss if I didn't speak to how awesome Wilt was in his last years focusing on rebounding and defense. I listed the last year various guys were MVP candidates and Wilt came out at age 36...which was of course his final year. That's really, really impressive, but it also raises the question of why it made sense for him to try to score so little given that he still had much of the advantages he had when he was younger when he scored so much.

Was it was best for the team? Quite possibly...but if Wilt were good enough at making shooting vs passing decisions, why would it make sense to do this? It's not like he couldn't do that stuff while also getting rebounds and being a defensive threat. To circle back to somethin Seth alluded to:

I don't think it would ever make sense to do this with Jokic, because Jokic is an incredible decision maker. He can play with guys for whom scoring is there thing, and it doesn't stop them from doing their thing, he makes it easier for them while still having high offensive primacy
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#167 » by ShaqAttac » Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:01 pm

VOTE
1. BILL RUSSELL
1 Russ, will say more down under
2 Mikan, will say more down under
3 Bron, Nukes every1 but russ n cap in "Impact", crazy longetvity, plays in way better league, apm goes craaazy
4 Cap, Crazzy longetvity, also better in "impact" for his peak than every1 but bron n russ from what im seein, was awesome before he even entereed nba
5. Timmy D, always on a good team, all-time carry job in 03, all-time leadeer who took paycuts to help antonio win, n honestly, was prob the best player of the 2000's, I thought shaq was 1 but i cant argue with da facts.
6. Dream, I know its crazy soundin, but I think he got a good arg here from what im seein. same rs impaact, n went nova in the pos. Eni n KD make really goood points so ill let em d up. basically tho his "impact' In rs is comp and he gets way better in the yoffs. He also carried meh help to b2b chips while MJ literallly only won with an uberduper superteam. Unless im missin sumthn MJ would be the only nom whose never won without a deathsquad.


VOTE BILL RUSSELL
this is p easy. He won 11 rings as the best player by faar and was so good ppl been strugglin hard to come up with any kinda arg against the season when he was bout to retire. Man literally crusshes superteams with bad help n was also the coach. He also was facin craazy comp
ut this doesn't mean anything of itself. For the KD parallel to work, the Celtics need to be great(relative to the comp) without Russell. Nothing suggests this is true beyond the Celtics first few titles(i listed the different stuff in my previous post). Crucially everything we have suggests the opposite was true in 1969, and here the competition is far better than "not weak".

Assuming you are not trying to break era-relativity, here are 3-ways we can look at opposition strength
1. Look at how the teams look relative to the league for the era(bullets and knicks are outliers by srs, Lakers are close)
2. Look at how the comp was relative to the league that season(Celtics beat the best, 2nd best and 4th best opponent they could have had by SRS)
3. Look at how the comp was in surrounding seasons(Knicks SRS doubles en-route to a championship the following year, Bullets and Lakers srs drops but they take the Knicks to 7 and LA win a championship and make 3 finals)

By any of these approaches the Celtics faced an all-time difficult gauntlet and there is absolutely nothing to suggest the Celtics were some stacked super-squad. "Competition" is not a serious argument here. Bill went through just about the hardest possible route, with weak support, in a year where the best teams were unusually good. Not sure how that doesn't get him to a tier 1(era-relative) peak unless you arbitrarily decide to curve 1969 down to what feels reasonable without scaling the other title-winning years up.


Idrg how u can arg against a guy who won way more than every1 and also won with less help. Team went bitw to bad without him when he was supposed to be waashed. If you got him low coz the league sucked i get you. But ppl sayin they era-relative and not havin russ 1 is cap. He only ever lost when hurt and he stay winnin even when his teammates sucked facin the death-star. Ez 1 for me.

2. HAKEEM OLAJUWON

I didnt know whether to go with him or duncan but according to fp, eni, and kds stuff he was actually the best playoff monster of his league and comp to mj and magic in the reg season. MJ was definitely luckier so if Hakeem's "impact" is the same and then > in the playoffs I dont see how i can go with jordan. Maaaybe duncan is better but...idk. Apparently he has higher rs impact and he a playoff monster too.. i guess if yall make good args yall could switch me.


Gonna nominate:
MIKAN
I wanna vote MIKAN for 2 but imma keep my vote in case i need to use it for bron.

This is also p simple. He was waay better than everyone else in a waay no one else was, was the best on o and d, and won 7 rings.
DoctorMJ wrote:George Mikan (1924) "Mr. Basketball", 6'10" center, the first true big man, 7 total pro titles with Chicago Gears & Lakers

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Origin: Illinois
College: DePaul
Series Wins: 23
All-League 1st Team: 8 times
Star-Prime: 8 seasons
POY wins: 8, POY shares: 8.0
OPOY wins: 3, OPOY shares: 3.8
DPOY wins: 6, DPOY shares: 6.2


The obvious top player from the era so maybe not a ton to be gleaned from going into further detail, but some observations:

- Mikan appears to have been the best offensive player in pro basketball basically from the time he turned pro. Eventually others arrive in the league to top him, but he remains elite until the rule change of 1951 that widened the key from 6 to 12 feet specifically to stop him. From that point onward, while Mikan likely remained the best rebounder in the world, it seems that the rule change did have the desired effect.

- Mikan almost certainly would have been an even more impactful defender from the jump if not for the banning of goaltending. As it was, it seems like it took Mikan some time to re-optimize his defensive play. He had a recurring issue of foul trouble that was often the Achilles heel for his teams win the lost.

- So far as I can tell, Mikan's defensive dominance in the NBA was less about shotblocking and more about rebounding. Certainly the shotblocking threat was there to a degree, but in a league with such weak shooting percentage, rebounding was arguably king.

ik we dont got data, but he won the 2nd most and he was way better than every1 else. Seems like a simple 2 to me.

Hope that was good!

Tbh Magic stat also looks good and better than hakeem in the rs so im not really sure
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#168 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:34 pm

My prior 1st Vote and Nomination remain applicable. Vote 2 will be new.

Vote 1: Bill Russell

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Spoiler:
The Great Rivals
Alright, Imma take a bit of a journey here, and I'll give the trigger warning that Wilt Chamberlain will loom large here, and will be criticized. I don't do this because I hate Wilt, but because Wilt was always seen as the GOAT basketball talent, and the standard by which others were judged. Even Russell himself came to be re-defined as a contrast to Wilt in a way that was very different from how he was perceived originally - which I might say could have been called a Goliath-type.

So, I think that probably the most important specific comparison to understand when doing historical basketball GOATs is Russell vs Wilt. We get all sorts of stories past down about this comparison, and all savvy young skeptics find the following point resonant:

It's a team game, so if one star seems to be doing a lot more than the other but his team is losing, maybe it's because it's a TEAM GAME! It doesn't help when you hear arguments that start throwing around words like 'loser' to describe a guy whose teams did a lot more winning than losing. There's no doubt that winning-bias type arguments have been used for forever to argue for Russell over Wilt. Sufficed to say then, when I came to RealGM as a more-informed-than-most basketball fan, I ranked Wilt ahead of Russell.

As I dove deeper into the past however, a few things really shaped my perspective and swung me to the other side:

1. The fact that all through this time period it seems that defensive impact was possible to a considerably greater extent than offensive impact. This is something that by itself might be more of an argument for Russell over Oscar & West than Wilt. Simply put, in a world where offensive impact is more possible than defensive, which is where I think we tend to start by default, there are really good reasons to think that not just Wilt but other players were more deserving of MVPs than Russell.

When you realize that defense truly was king back then, then at least in-era, you lose a lot of that reason to be skeptical about Russell. When you watch a pitcher in baseball or a goalie in hockey seemingly shutdown the opposing offense, you have no qualms about calling that player the MVP of that game even if that guy couldn't be expected to hit homers or skate with grace. And to extent, the data told me that basketball in that era was somewhat analogous.

This alone didn't put Russell ahead of Wilt though, because Wilt was also capable of massive defensive impact, and Wilt was about as good of an offensive player as they come, right? I mean, even if we grant Russell the edge on defense, can it really make up for Wilt scoring 20-30 more points than Russell?

2. The incredible success of the '66-67 76ers, where Wilt was less of a scorer, and yet the team took a massive leap forward on offense.

This is where going through year-by-year and thinking about why the people involved made the decisions they made ended up having a profound impact on me. If Wilt is the greatest scorer of the age, then why would any coach come in and tell Wilt to shoot MUCH less? Well and good to say to say that changing the approach allowed for Wilt to have facilitator's impact on his teammate, but that implies that it was a choice between Shooter Wilt and Passer Wilt, and Passer Wilt was just better (at least for the context in question). From there you actually got people saying Wilt was the GOAT scorer and even better as a passer, which just doesn't make a lot of sense.

At the heart of the issue is that in the end shooting and passing are decisions that a player makes in the moment, and the expectation has always been that a player will need to do both, and thus is on the hook for deciding which move is best each and every moment. And so if a player gets incrementally better players around him, he should be a smidge less likely to shoot and more likely to pass.

So what does it say when a coach comes in and afterward a player becomes MUCH less likely to shoot and MUCH more likely to pass? That it's not really about the change in teammates, but the change to a kind of default setting. A "default setting" that really should be as close to undetectable as possible if you're reacting to what the defense gives you.

And if you're that new coach and you have any sort of common sense at all, you don't do this to any star just for the heck of it, let alone the most celebrated scorer in the history of the sport. You would only do it if you saw a problem and were so confident in what you say that you were willing to risk becoming a laughing stock for all time. And make no mistake, had Alex Hannum's new scheme backfired, that's what he would have been. When you question conventional wisdom and conventional wisdom proves correct, you generally look like a fool. When you do that in your career on something big enough to always be the first thing people remember about you, it's often a career killer.

So then I think the most important question for folks to answer about '66-67, is: What did Hannum see? So long as you take this part very seriously as essential to evaluation of Wilt, I respect others coming to different conclusions.

Way back in the day when I was doing the blogging thing I wrote a post that's probably (hopefully?) still worth reading:

Chamberlain Theory: The Real Price of Anarchy in Basketball

Which led to this general takeaway about basketball:

There is more to judging the effectiveness of a scorer, or a player in general, than simply his most obvious related statistics, and pursuit of those obvious statistics without proper awareness for the rest of the court can erase most if not all of a scorer’s positive impact, even when those obvious statistics are as great as any in all of history.

Interestingly as I read this now I think about something I wasn't aware of back then: Goodhart's Law

Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes.

Often paraphrased (and simplified) as

When the measure becomes the target, it ceases to be a good measure.

Anyway, getting back to Russell vs Wilt, while previously I had been in a camp that might have said something like "I believe you that Russell had an edge on defense even above Wilt, but I can't fathom it was enough to make up for Wilt's 50 to 18 PPG scoring advantage", that became a lot harder to be skeptical of when I had to admit to myself that I believe that 24 PPG Wilt was actually more effective than 50 PPG Wilt.

Once I got past that statistical hang up, believing that Russell was often more valuable than Wilt seemed actually plausible.

3. I do think something that just needs to be acknowledged is that this notion of winning as many titles as possible to become the GOAT just wasn't the same thing back then, and it really wasn't the same for someone like Wilt who understandably saw basketball as just one source of public success. "Bigger than the game" makes it sound like it's about ego, but in the deeper past top athletes would jump from sport to sport to the movies to the recording studio wherever attention and fortune availed.

In some ways, that's always been true and is true now...but the difference is that someone like LeBron knows that the more he achieves through his years in the NBA, the bigger his reach after he retires. Literally this wasn't even true for Wilt. Winning a title was important...but from there to him it didn't follow that he should milk the success to achieve a dynasty. To him, it made financial sense to get himself to Hollywood. (Noteworthy that LeBron is in Hollywood now too...but he didn't come until after he was convinced he couldn't win more where he was.)

All this to say then that in some ways the entire basis of this project is "unfair" to Wilt in a way that the Peak project is not. He really wasn't trying to "max out" his NBA career the way guys do now, and the NBA-centered nature of this project then ends up effectively penalizing Wilt for this.

This pertains to why I tend to emphasize that there are myriad different ways to rank these guys, and a difference in spot lit criteria in a project such as this can easily lead to one thinking that someone else completely denies the greatness of a guy simply because a particular criteria ends up casting a smaller shadow than another angle would.

Russell on the Regular
Okay, let me continue on this point but widen out the gaze a bit:

While Wilt's tendency to stargaze is a completely understandable thing that just happens to penalize him under Career Achievement criteria, there is also the matter that it's really, really hard to keep beating all comers again and again and again the way Russell and the Celtics did. There's a certain joy in repetition that you need from this. It's not about winning the 11th title, it's about the process of proving yourself every day. It's about self-discipline, and in a team sport, working well with teammates on and off the court. If you don't have all those things, you're either going to run out of gas a lot sooner, or you're going to rip yourselves apart.

While I'm not going to say that Bill Russell is the only player with the mindset who could have put his team on his back to the top so regularly for so long, I think it speaks to a powerful capability where we all exist on a spectrum of greater and lesser ability to do it. I see many, many other stars who I think clearly don't have what it takes, and frankly I don't think I could have done it had I had Russell's body. I think it's important to recognize that this in and of itself is part of what makes Russell so special.

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Russell the Defensive Archetype
Alright, so far I've alluded to Russell's defensive greatness but I haven't really drilled down. I'm going to point to another blog post I wrote, this at the end of that experiment:

Searching for Bill Russell ~ Starring Anthony Davis (2012)

The context here was my excitement over Anthony Davis as a prospect, which makes it interesting to look back on in its own right, but I bring it up here for the same reason why I was focused on finding a new Russell at the time: I see Russell as essentially the ideal build for a defensive player.

As stunningly agile as he was for his size, Chamberlain still could not compare with Russell in this regard. He had various clear advantages to Russell (strength, and likely fine motor skills come to mind), but the agility gap meant that there were simply things Russell could do than Chamberlain couldn’t. From Bill Russell: A Biography:

Bill understood that Wilt’s game was more vertical, that is, from the floor to the basket. Wilt’s game was one of strength and power…Bill’s game was built on finesse and speed, what he called a horizontal game, as he moved back and forth across the court blocking shots, running the floor, and playing team defense.

Russell’s quickness, along with instincts and superb leaping ability, meant that Russell could cast a larger shadow on the defensive side of the court. He could run out to challenge perimeter shooting, and recover quickly enough that he wouldn’t let his team get burned. That ability to have more global impact, and his sense to use it wisely, made him a more valuable defensive player than Chamberlain could ever be.


That you'd want length has always been a thing that's clear in basketball, but it's not necessarily obvious that a more lithe frame is better than a thicker one. Strength has its advantages too after all, and if basketball were a merely one-on-one sport where one guy just backed the other guy down, thicker would be better.

But it's a team game on an open field. It's a game of horizontal space, as is alluded to in the quote, and that's where Russell's unique combination of strengths gave him immense benefit.

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Russell the Revolutionary
Now, this is a project that isn't about things like influence, and so a player being a spearhead doesn't necessarily help his case. Nonetheless, I think it's important to understand how Russell became what he became.

Russell was not a star in high school. Not because of an ultra-late growth spurt. Not because of racism. Why? A few things:

First, he played at California-state-champion type high school (McClymonds). There was extreme talent on the team, and as a result Russell didn't come of age with everything built toward making use of him. He came of age fitting in with other talents.

But I don't mean to imply that Russell was the secret MVP of those high school team with his teammates getting all the scoring glory. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that he was THAT good at the time, and when Russell describes his journey, he makes clear that the place where he really found his way in basketball was not in high school, but on a traveling all-star team he happened to join after high school.

Why do I say "happened"? As he describes it, the traveling all-star team was launched in the middle of the school year, but because Russell was a "splitter" who graduated on an earlier track, and he was the only senior on the team for whom this is true, when the all-star team came looking to add a McClymonds player to their roster, Russell was the only choice available.

And so it happened that Russell ended up spending months after his high school career riding on a bus from town to town playing basketball without any active coaching, and something funny occurred:

From "Second Wind" by Bill Russell
Within a week after the All-Star tour began, something happened that opened my eyes and chilled my spine…Every time one of them would make one of the moves I liked, I’d close my eyes just afterward and try to see the play in my mind. In other words, I’d try to create an instant replay on the inside of my eyelids.

“On this particular night I was working on replays of many plays, including McKelvey’s way of taking an offensive rebound and moving quickly to the hoop. It’s a fairly simple play for any big man in basketball, but I didn’t execute it well and McKelvey did. Since I had an accurate version of his technique in my head, I started playing with the image right there on the bench, running back the picture several times and each time inserting a part of me for McKelvey. Finally I saw myself making the whole move, and I ran this over and over, too. When I went into the game, I grabbed an offensive rebound and put it in the basket just the way McKelvey did. It seemed natural, almost as if I were just stepping into a film and following the signs.”

“For the rest of the trip I was nearly possessed by basketball. I was having so much fun that I was sorry to see each day end, and I wanted the nights to race by so that the next day could start. The long rides on the bus never bothered me. I talked basketball incessantly, and when I wasn’t talking I was sitting there with my eyes closed, watching plays in my head. I was in my own private basketball laboratory, making blueprints for myself.


Russell began this process of watching basketball in his head as an active participant, and soon began focusing less on trying to do what he saw other guys do, and instead how to defend against those guys. And then he started revolutionizing basketball right there with his eyes closed - not that he knew that then - what he knew is that he came back from the tour a much, much better basketball player.

Now, before we buy in entirely to the idea that Russell was a scrub in high school, I mean, the man did get a scholarship offer to play for the University of San Francisco (USF). Not a powerhouse program, but that doesn't mean they just hand out scholarships to anybody. Russell says that the USF scout had happened to see him play a particularly good game in high school, I'll let you decide how much of this is false modesty.

The cool thing though at USF is that since freshman couldn't play on the Varsity team, he basically got another year developing before having to fit in with stars under a coach. And in that year, he met KC Jones, and the two of them basically went Einstein on the game:

“We decided that basketball is basically a game of geometry –of lines, points and distances–and that the horizontal distances are more important than the vertical ones.”

“KC and I spent hours exploring the geometry of basketball, often losing track of the time. Neither of us needed a blackboard to see the play the other was describing…It was as if I was back on the Greyhound, assembling pictures of moves in my mind, except that KC liked to talk about what combinations of players could do. I had been daydreaming about solo moves, but he liked to work out strategies. KC has an original basketball mind, and he taught me how to scheme to make things happen on the court, particularly on defense…He was always figuring out ways to make the opponent take the shot he wanted him to take when he wanted him to take it, from the place he wanted the man to shoot.”

“Gradually, KC and I created a little basketball world of our own. Other players were lost in our conversations because we used so much shorthand that no one could follow what we were saying. Most of the players weren’t interested in strategy anyway.”


The pair would soon take the college basketball world by storm, and take USF to the big time and back-to-back NCAA championships.

I'd note here in Russell you have an example of someone with an incredibly active basketball imagination once it got turned on - which of course didn't happen until he had time AWAY from coaches - but it's not that I'm saying that his talent on this front was one-of-a-kind and that that was his truly greatest strength. Russell was unusual in such talent surely, but really it was him getting into certain types strategic habits with the reinforcement of a similar mind that caused something of an exponential curve. And of course, the application of that curve was on Russell's body, which was a far greater body talent than what Jones possessed.

I also think Russell elaborate on the horizontal game tellingly in this quote but unfortunately I'm not sure which book it was from:

Beginning in my freshman year, I developed the concept of horizontal and vertical games. I made a distinction between the two that others had not done. The horizontal game meant how I played side to side. The vertical game was how I played up and down. I knew that if I could integrate the two games, our team could win. I would always be in a position to determine where the ball was and where it was going.

What I saw was how much more there was to the game than that. I would lie awake at night and play with numbers. How much time was there in an NBA game? Forty-eight minutes. How many shots were taken in a game? Maybe a hundred and sixty, eighty or so on each side. I calculated the number of seconds each shot took—a second, a second and a half—and then I multiplied by a hundred. Two hundred forty seconds at most—or four minutes. Then add a single extra second for a foul shot missed and then the ball put in play; add another minute at the most. So, five minutes out of forty-eight are actually taken up in the vertical game.


What I'm hoping you're getting a picture of is a young man who started thinking for himself about how he could best help his team win at basketball.

From an innovator's perspective, this is what would put Russell at the very top of my list of all basketball players in history. This archetype of the horizontal & vertical force who intimidated shots like nobody's business but who relied on non-vertical agility to do a whole bunch of other things that were valuable, Russell basically invented it. Not saying no one before had ever done anything like it, but it wasn't what was being taught by coaches.

In Russell's words:

On defense it was considered even worse to leave your feet…The idea was for the defensive player to keep himself between his man and the basket at all times. Prevent lay-ups, keep control, stay on your feet. By jumping you were simply telegraphing to your opponent that you could be faked into the air. Defenses had not begun to adjust to the jump shot.


Russell would be the one, then, who would make that adjustment and have the world take notice, and only after he did that did the coaches begin coaching players to do Russell-type things.

Note: As I say this you might be thinking that this can't be true because of the arrival of the Big Man in the '40s with George Mikan and Bob Kurland to college basketball. Some things to note:

Quickly after the arrival of those players, goaltending was introduced as a rule. Had it not, then certainly at-the-rim shot-blocking would have quickly become THE way to play defense.

So what Russell's talking about isn't the ability to get your hand considerably higher than the rim, but about aggressively blocking shots on the way up, and not just for your man, but from anybody on the other team, which wasn't seen as a realistic option until Russell.

Caveat: A distinction must be made between Kurland & Mikan. Kurland was the true mega-shot-blocker, not Mikan. As such, it's possible that Russell would have grown up in a different landscape had Kurland chosen to play pro ball.

With that said, Kurland was the the big man star of the US Olympic teams in their '48 & '52 gold medals, and Russell was the star of the '56 team. From what I've read, even for players used to getting beat by Kurland in the Olympics, Russell felt shockingly different because of his quickness.

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Russell and the Future
Okay, I've probably long since lost folks with my meanders, so let me try to tie this back together:

With what I've written so far I think it's clear why Russell would be my pre-Kareem GOAT, but what about Kareem and all the players who came after?

Well, Russell vs Kareem is a great comparison and I completely understand voting for Kareem. Kareem is literally a guy who I'd have given the DPOY to in some years, and I think his scoring impact was far more reliable than Wilt's. Shouldn't that be enough to give him the nod?

Well, when I think about player achievement, I have a tendency to focus on the team success of the player with more team success and ask myself if I think the other player can do better. And the thing is, I don't think Kareem's Celtics could match Russell's Celtics. I think in Kareem you've got someone more like a longer Kurland, whereas in Russell you've got a combination of length & quickness that was basically unheard of at least until Olajuwon.

I could see arguments for coming up with the ideal team with a comparable amount of supporting talent for Kareem being better than those Celtics, but there's really nothing I can imagine that I'd bet on winning 11 titles in 13 years.

Now, you might say, "Well but no one can do that, so Russell is going to be your GOAT forever", but this is where we get into the degree of difficulty of the league. It's not going to take the same title winning percentage to top Russell. What will it take? We'll see. It's not about hitting a particular pre-set threshold. It's a case-by-case comparison. I take both Jordan & LeBron as serious candidates to surpass Russell, and in 2020 I put both ahead of Russell.

But, that was coming from a perspective that was essentially 2020-oriented. Do I think Russell would be the best player in today's game? No. I think that once the shooters in the game got good enough, it decreased how much you could dominate the game as a defender, and that gives offensive stars the edge.

Thing is, it didn't just give Jordan & James the edge. It gives entire types of players the edge, so on what basis did I have Russell at #3? As I reflected, it just became undeniably inconsistent, and if I ran it back again, I'm not sure where Russell would have landed.

I'll admit to this feeling wrong to me, and that feeling influenced me to ruminate, but I do want to be clear that I don't like the idea of changing my criteria so that I can keep a particular player super-high. I suppose though, while I'm fine with Russell not being at the top of my list, the idea of him moving way far down just makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong.

Not that I'm the first person to think this - many, many people have thought I've done things wrong along these lines and criticized my approach as disrespecting the past. In the end though it's not so much about respecting the past being worthy of a particular spot on the list, but of how I want to try to rank guys from the past.

Do I want to try to gauge the Russells of the world primarily based on how they'd fair against a technique that exists because of a rule change that came about after (and because of) them?, or, Do I want to focus on why what they did in their day that was so worth remembering?

Viewed like this, it's the latter.

Back to Jordan & LeBron in comparison to Russell, it's not just that they have less rings, but that they have warts in their careers. Jordan was something of an individualist in a team game whose strengths allowed him to take game by the horns in his prime, but whose attitude had a destructiveness to it that showed itself more late in his career (Washington), but it's not like it wasn't there before. It could have tripped him up more severely in prime, and I feel like it was bound to cause problems as he aged.

LeBron on the other hand has a combination of missed opportunities and tendency to jump ship (or push those around him overboard) that I think has kept his career from reaching the heights of what I really still see as possible in today's game. Maybe I'll look back on this vote in the years to come and think this was naive - maybe no one will top him for decades to come and I'll end up again re-evaluating LeBron and putting back on top, but as things stand, I'm more impressed with what Russell did....


Vote 2: Tim Duncan

Alright, we've got Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem & Duncan. All have arguments against each other.

I'm going to start with Duncan vs Hakeem, which might be the one that bothers me the most depending on my criteria. Like Garnett, I'm more impressed by what Hakeem brought to the table than Duncan - not by a lot, but forced to choose peak vs peak, I'll take Hakeem.

But, while you can make a case for Hakeem having accomplished more than Duncan, the reality is that Duncan had a very long career leading to incredible cumulative team success, and while we don't have detailed +/- data from much of Hakeem's career, what we do have honestly seems to give Duncan the edge. Definitely a case that Duncan was just plain better there, but regardless and more relevant: I'm not prepared to make a case for Hakeem's career over Duncan's all things considred.

Duncan vs Shaq. As I've alluded to, this is a place where I'm quite comfortable letting longevity decide the matchup. I hold it against Shaq that he had a tendency toward inconsistent play, drama queening, and blowing up teams. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that if you had a chance to draft either Shaq or Duncan, you'd be wise to pick Duncan.

Duncan vs Wilt. I hold similar things against Wilt and this is why I've had Duncan ahead of both Shaq & Wilt for a good while.

I will say, having gone through again recently year-by-year, while it actually hurt Shaq, it helped Wilt. So while I know I'm going to rank Shaq at the bottom of this foursome, Wilt could end up above or below the Duncan/Hakeem duo. To try to put some shape to the dilemma:

If I'm going simply based on my POY shares, Wilt has the edge on the back of him finishing 2nd more times than anyone else. One might say that Wilt has a harder degree-of-difficulty due to the presence of Russell, or easier based on the fact that there just wasn't that much competition back then...but to get 2nd, it generally meant topping Oscar & West who were incredible players. I'll keep chewing on what I see on this, but just taking on face value, the question then becomes:

Does Duncan's non-Top 5 year achievement allow him to top Wilt? Well, this is where that whole "Could I imagine Wilt leading a franchise the way Duncan did?". Maybe today it'd be different, but back then? I don't think so. I don't think that really made sense given his goals.

Now, one might ask: Was what Wilt did changing teams all that different from LeBron-style Player Empowerment? If it isn't, in which case one might ask whether Duncan should be ahead of LeBron if it matters enough to surpass Wilt.

Two big things:

1. LeBron was always first and foremost on a GOAT NBA career in a way that Wilt was not. I would understand someone looking at that as just an era thing to be normalized away, but mentality-wise, it is different.

2. I'm afraid there's a big POY share gap for me when I just tally things up between LeBron & Wilt. In a nutshell, if I separate players into tiers base on places where there's a major gap in the tally, it would look like this:

Tier 1: Bill Russell
Tier 2: LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, George Mikan, Magic Johnson
Tier 3: Wilt Chamberlain...and everyone else.

Mikan aside, who is going to get hurt significantly by the degree-of-difficulty, hard for me to put others ahead of the other 5...and while Wilt stacks up well, he's still in that tier down where things get all bunched up.

Nomination: Magic Johnson

Image

Speaking of Magic, he'll be my first Nominee. To tell a bit of my journey here:

When I started on RealGM, I had Magic higher than the Olajuwons/Shaqs/Duncan/KGs. Then I started focusing on two things:

1. Longevity - where Magic's HIV diagnosis forever damaged what he could achieve.

2. Impact - Shaq, Duncan & KG had such high impact, and impact on both sides of the ball, that it was hard to imagine that Magic was enough better to make up for longevity issues.

Also, related to impact, was me consider how lucky Magic was to arrive on the Lakers. Incredible team success to be sure, but to be expect to a degree with that talent around you, right?

On the longevity front, I've walked it back a bit. While I'm still fine using extended longevity as a tiebreaker, I'm generally more focused in what a player can do in 5-10 years, because for the most part that's when a franchise can expect to build a contender with you. And of course, Magic had that. In Magic's 12 years before the HIV retirement, the Lakers had an amount of success that's just plain staggering for any career.

12 years. 12 years 50+ wins. 32 playoff series wins.

For the record, if my count is correct, LeBron himself only has 12 50+ win years (though he does have 41 playoff series victories).

So yeah, Magic packed in so much success into his career, that it's hard to take seriously longevity as that big of concern to me. Tiebreaker at most really.

Of course he had help and I don't want to just elevate the guy because he had more help...but being the star and leader of the team having the most dominant decade run since Russell is not something to be brushed aside lightly. I think we need to be very careful about assuming other guys have a comparable realistic ceiling.

Going back to LeBron, I'll say that watching him through his career has also helped me gain more confidence in Magic's ability to find ways to control the game around him no matter the context or how his body changed. I think Magic had an extremely strong intuition about how to win the arm-wrestling contest of basketball, finding little affordances to gain leverage over time, and I think it's offensive geniuses who in general have this capacity in the modern (and even somewhat-near-modern game).[/quote]
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lessthanjake
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#169 » by lessthanjake » Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:55 pm

rk2023 wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:
Spoiler:
Following up on my prior post about the huge “shot quality” increase with Steph on the floor, I want to dig a little more into why/how that happens. When we drill down into it, we find that the reason Steph’s teammates’ average so much higher shot quality with him on the floor is primarily because they get a way higher percent of their FGAs at the rim when Steph is on the floor. Using the method I described in my earlier post, here’s some numbers for the average increase in percent-of-FGAs-at-the-rim for teammates when certain players are on or off the court. As you’ll see in the below numbers, Steph is a complete outlier, even as compared to the greatest passers of the era. And this actually makes sense. He has so much gravity, creates so much defensive confusion with his off-ball movement, and gets doubled on the pick and roll so far out that he just constantly creates immense space for his teammates to utilize to manufacture shots at the rim:

Average Increase in Teammates’ Rim Shot Frequency with Player on the Floor (only counting teammates with 1,000+ minutes with the player)

1. Steph Curry (2014-2015 to 2018-2019): +11.89%

2. Steph Curry (2014-2015 to 2022-2023): +9.32%

3. Nikola Jokic (2020-2021 to 2022-2023): +6.90%

4. Draymond Green (2014-2015 to 2022-2023): +4.80%

5. Steve Nash (2004-2005 to 2011-2012): +3.28%

6. LeBron James (2014-2015 to 2017-2018): +2.77%

7. Shaquille O’Neal (2000-2001 to 2003-2004): +2.23%

8. Kobe Bryant (2000-2001 to 2009-2010):: +1.91%

9. Tim Duncan (2000-2001 to 2006-2007): +1.70%

10. James Harden (2012-2013 to 2019-2020): +1.32%

11. LeBron James (2005-2006 to 2009-2010): +1.26%

12. Luka Doncic (2019-2020 to 2022-2023): +0.20%

13. Giannis Antetokounmpo (2019-2020 to 2022-2023): -0.55%

14. Chris Paul (2011-2012 to 2016-2017): -0.6%

15. LeBron James (2010-2011 to 2013-2014): -1.08%


Shots at the rim are the best shots in basketball. And Steph increases his teammates’ ability to generate them in a completely outlier-like fashion. And I think this goes to the point that, in my view, Steph is the greatest playmaker of his generation, and perhaps the greatest playmaker in the history of basketball. We see this in data like this, in impact data, and in a close look at film.

And I think that this shouldn’t be surprising to people. Basketball is ultimately a game about shooting the basketball into the hoop. Steph Curry is easily the best in history at doing that. The fact that that outlier ability at the game’s most fundamental skill would radically warp defenses in a way that breaks them is not at all surprising.


Would you mind compiling OKC Westbrook and Luka’s values in this regard?


Luka was actually already included in my post—he was at +0.20%. I just calculated Westbrook’s OKC number starting at 2010-2011 (didn’t seem fair to count his first couple years before that), and it comes out to +1.09%.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#170 » by DraymondGold » Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:29 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:Hakeem in Impact Metrics
Given all the discussion on Hakeem, I thought it might be interesting to go through all the available impact data we have. All of the stats we have are imperfect (RAPM has small samples, WOWY-based stuff is noisy), but I'd argue that they can still help us get a handle on a player when examined on the whole, in conjunction with contextual and film analysis. I'm going to start this post by summarizing the available 'pure' impact metrics, with the hope of getting more into the box/hybrid metrics, context, and film analysis in the upcoming days/threads.

So: how do available (pure) impact metrics rate Hakeem relative in the upcoming tiers? I'll use the previous projects' remaining Top 14 players plus Curry for these tiers. In chronological order: Russel, Wilt, Oscar, West, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Curry.

Raw WOWY: This is probably Hakeem's most favorable impact stat. How does he look?
-10-year Prime WOWY: Oscar, West, Bird, Shaq, Garnett, Curry > Hakeem. (Magic barely behind).
-Multi-season lineup changes (the OhayoKD special): Russell looks GOAT-level and definitely gets above Hakeem. Others may look better as well, but there's less of a single database to check for these full-season trade/injury/rookie/retirement-based WOWY data.

Overall in raw WOWY, Hakeem only has a case over Wilt, Magic, Duncan, and Kobe. Russell, Shaq, and KG are better than Hakeem, as are all the all-time non-bigs.

Adjusted WOWY: if we adjust for teammates (in the same way you can adjust raw plus minus to make APM/RAPM):
-10-year Prime WOWYR: Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West, Magic, Shaq, Garnett, Kobe > Hakeem (barely Duncan barely behind, Bird behind; no Curry data)
-10-year Prime GPM (alternate calculation method for WOWYR): Russell, Oscar, West, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe > Hakeem (Wilt behind; no Curry data).
-10-year Average between adjusted-WOWY stats: Russell, Oscar, West, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett > Hakeem = Kobe (barely over Bird or Wilt; no Curry data).

So in adjusted WOWY stats, Hakeem doesn't really have a case over the same bigs (Russell, Shaq, Garnett) plus Duncan, and all the all-time guards (Oscar, West, Magic, and likely Curry given Curry’s GOAT raw WOWY stats). He has a weak case over Kobe, some case over Wilt and Bird.

RAPM: We have small samples of Hakeem's RAPM, thanks to Squared2020. We have ~136 prime games (14 games in 1988 + 25 games in 1991 + 19 games in 1996 = 58 games in his 10-year prime, plus full-season data in 1997). We also have full post-prime and 9 games from his rookie season. Small samples can be very noisy (so larger uncertainty range), but 25 games in 1991 is big enough to not be entirely noise (particularly when boosted by the context of data from 3 other prime years, and data from 6 non-prime years).

How does Hakeem look in prime RAPM? His values are +1.82 in 1985, +1.52 in 1988, +3.19 in 1991, +3.50 in 1996, +3.37 in 1997. In other words...
Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Curry >> Hakeem (with no data for Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West). I.e., Hakeem's RAPM data is significantly lower than all the available players in this tier. But we're dealing with small samples, where Hakeem's teams underperformed vs their full-season rate.

What if we curve Hakeem's numbers up, based on his team's full-season play (so if Hakeem's teams performed 12% worse in the games we have vs their full-season rating, what if we assume the underperformance is equally from Hakeem and his teammates and so boost Hakeem's numbers by 12%)?
Hakeem ends up having +1.7 in 1988, +3.4 in 1991, +4.8 in 1996. Which is an improvement!... that still isn't enough to get Hakeem over the better years of literally any of the other available players in this tier.

Okay, if we still think the measurement is too noisy, what if we only compare the full-season data at equivalent ages (so age 34+). This gives a handle on how players aged, and maybe can help us infer prime value based on the decline.
Hakeem (age 34+): 3.37, 3.11, 2.62, 1.56, 0.5, 1.04
Shaq (age 34+): 1.97, 2.96, 0.62, -1.32, 0.43.
Duncan (age 34+): 3.26, 5.1, 5.24, 4.03, 3.04
Garnett (age 34+): 5.73, 6.89, 6.3, 3.46, 1.53
Kobe (age 34+): 0.74, 1.89, 0.18, -0.86
Finally, at least he's not last again!

So in (limited) prime RAPM, Hakeem looks worse than every available player in this tier. As an older player, Hakeem looks better than Shaq and Kobe (but under Duncan and Garnett). But again, this data is not ideal, and it may not capture his playoff improvement (which I'll try to get to in the coming posts/days).

Overall Takeaways: I’ll leave the box stats and playoff stats for a future post. These are important factors to consider (especially playoff stats for Hakeem), and I don’t want to rush them for now.

But in the mean time, these are all the true/“pure” impact stats we have for Hakeem. They all have limitations. Raw WOWY and WOWYR are both quite noisy with large uncertainty. The prime RAPM data use small samples, and are thus noisy. And the post-prime RAPM data is less noisy, but misses the seasons we’re actually interested in. However, taken together, they can still be used to help pin down the value of prime Hakeem. And what I've checked (so far) puts Hakeem towards the bottom of this tier.

Looking at players who are currently up for being voted in:
-Russell > Hakeem. The raw WOWY (multi-season lineup changes) data clearly favor Russell, as do all the adjusted WOWY data. We have no Russell RAPM data.
-Shaq >! Hakeem. Shaq’s better in every raw WOWY and adjusted WOWY stat, and his prime RAPM is significantly ahead. The only advantage Hakeem seems to have is age 34+ RAPM, so you’d need a very heavy longevity weighting to prefer Hakeem to Shaq.
-Duncan >~ Hakeem. You can argue Hakeem if you heavily weight raw WOWY data, but the adjusted WOWY data (WOWYR, GPM, etc.) favor Duncan, the available prime RAPM data significantly favors Duncan, as does the late-career full-season RAPM.

-Hakeem > Wilt. Wilt is a more interesting discussion. WOWY-based data has never been quite as high on Wilt. Hakeem is higher in the raw WOWY data, and is higher in the adjusted WOWY data (though not by much, well within the bounds of uncertainty). We have no Wilt RAPM, so it seems like the available data favors Hakeem.
For those who'd like to make a pro-Wilt argument, some of this can be explained with context: Wilt has down years in 1965/69/70/73, which are the very same years he’s switching teams/injured/retiring, so his available WOWY samples may be dominated by the down years. Alternatively, an argument for Wilt may focus more on box stats, or focus more on evaluating Wilt’s “talent” over his per-season “impact”.

As for the other players, WOWY/available RAPM data pretty clearly favors the all-time guards (Oscar, West, Magic, Curry) as well as Garnett and possibly Bird, so it may be time to start nominating them. A longevity-heavy, playoff-heavy weighting might be able to push Hakeem past some of them, but many of these players are favored in all the available impact metrics.

Since Hakeem has been nominated already (and the others haven't), this to me suggests that people are either not valuing the impact data we have that heavily (at least compared to box stats or film or qualitative analysis), or perhaps are valuing longevity and inferred playoff improvement enough to push out the non-bigs (despite their per-season advantage over some of these bigs). I'd love to hear thoughts on this.

Me personally, I'm not ready to have Hakeem at the very bottom of these tiers (particularly given the longevity, and possibly given the playoff-improvement pending more film/data analysis)... but I do find it somewhat concerning (for a Top 10 player) that his adjusted WOWY data is so low, and that he has literally no single (available) RAPM sample that would put him at strong-MVP or all time. I might have him closer to ~10th, rather than fighting for 4th.

Sources:
-Thinking Basketball's Prime WOWY/WOWYR dataset (the traditional source for WOWY/WOWYR)
-Curry raw WOWY was approximately calculated by me in the RealGM Greatest Peaks Project
-Squared2020's RAPM for historical players (the traditional source for historical RAPM)
-Goldstein's RAPM for post-1997 (the traditional source for RAPM)


Hakeem is ahead in Scaled WOWYRand Alt Scaled. He falls behind Duncan in 10-year Scaled GPM. Hakeem's Prime WOWYR is the same as Duncan's, and he has a higher Prime WOWYR. Hakeem falls slightly behind Duncan in average due to to the decent discrepancy between between their GPM values. However, their averages are nearly equal and Hakeem actually looks better in multiple variations of WOWY.
Thanks for following up on this Luka! You're right they're quite close in adjusted WOWY metrics.

To get a little more detail, our 3 adjusted WOWY-based stats are:
Hakeem: Prime WOWYR (5.3), Alt-prime WOWYR (6.5), GPM (4.7).
Duncan: Prime WOWYR (5.2), Alt-prime WOWYR (5.0), GPM (6.9).
[for those who don’t know, WOWYR is calculated using players only above a certain minute threshold, to avoid noise by over-fitting/crediting players who barely play. You can lower that minute threshold to get alt-WOWYR. It's generally less accurate than Prime WOWYR, but it was included by TB because it has some variation on who it likes compared to Prime WOWYR].

Hakeem’s overall average: 5.5
Duncan’s overall average: 5.7

Like I said, the overall adjusted WOWY metrics favor Duncan, but it’s very slight. They’re basically tied in traditional WOWYR, with Hakeem just eking by (by 0.1, a much smaller margin than our uncertainty of ~1–2). Hakeem is clearly ahead in alt-WOWYR, Duncan is ahead by more in GPM and ahead in the overall average. Alt-WOWYR is our least trusted metric, in the sense that it does the worst job at predicting team wins or correlating with RAPM.

Since Duncan’s ahead in the more trusted metrics and slightly ahead in the three metric average, that’s why I said Duncan was *slightly* favored by adjusted WOWY metrics. But it’s close. Hakeem has a clearer advantage in raw WOWY like you say, and Duncan has a clearer advantage in RAPM.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#171 » by lessthanjake » Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:40 pm

DraymondGold wrote:
Spoiler:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:Hakeem in Impact Metrics
Given all the discussion on Hakeem, I thought it might be interesting to go through all the available impact data we have. All of the stats we have are imperfect (RAPM has small samples, WOWY-based stuff is noisy), but I'd argue that they can still help us get a handle on a player when examined on the whole, in conjunction with contextual and film analysis. I'm going to start this post by summarizing the available 'pure' impact metrics, with the hope of getting more into the box/hybrid metrics, context, and film analysis in the upcoming days/threads.

So: how do available (pure) impact metrics rate Hakeem relative in the upcoming tiers? I'll use the previous projects' remaining Top 14 players plus Curry for these tiers. In chronological order: Russel, Wilt, Oscar, West, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Curry.

Raw WOWY: This is probably Hakeem's most favorable impact stat. How does he look?
-10-year Prime WOWY: Oscar, West, Bird, Shaq, Garnett, Curry > Hakeem. (Magic barely behind).
-Multi-season lineup changes (the OhayoKD special): Russell looks GOAT-level and definitely gets above Hakeem. Others may look better as well, but there's less of a single database to check for these full-season trade/injury/rookie/retirement-based WOWY data.

Overall in raw WOWY, Hakeem only has a case over Wilt, Magic, Duncan, and Kobe. Russell, Shaq, and KG are better than Hakeem, as are all the all-time non-bigs.

Adjusted WOWY: if we adjust for teammates (in the same way you can adjust raw plus minus to make APM/RAPM):
-10-year Prime WOWYR: Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West, Magic, Shaq, Garnett, Kobe > Hakeem (barely Duncan barely behind, Bird behind; no Curry data)
-10-year Prime GPM (alternate calculation method for WOWYR): Russell, Oscar, West, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe > Hakeem (Wilt behind; no Curry data).
-10-year Average between adjusted-WOWY stats: Russell, Oscar, West, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett > Hakeem = Kobe (barely over Bird or Wilt; no Curry data).

So in adjusted WOWY stats, Hakeem doesn't really have a case over the same bigs (Russell, Shaq, Garnett) plus Duncan, and all the all-time guards (Oscar, West, Magic, and likely Curry given Curry’s GOAT raw WOWY stats). He has a weak case over Kobe, some case over Wilt and Bird.

RAPM: We have small samples of Hakeem's RAPM, thanks to Squared2020. We have ~136 prime games (14 games in 1988 + 25 games in 1991 + 19 games in 1996 = 58 games in his 10-year prime, plus full-season data in 1997). We also have full post-prime and 9 games from his rookie season. Small samples can be very noisy (so larger uncertainty range), but 25 games in 1991 is big enough to not be entirely noise (particularly when boosted by the context of data from 3 other prime years, and data from 6 non-prime years).

How does Hakeem look in prime RAPM? His values are +1.82 in 1985, +1.52 in 1988, +3.19 in 1991, +3.50 in 1996, +3.37 in 1997. In other words...
Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Curry >> Hakeem (with no data for Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West). I.e., Hakeem's RAPM data is significantly lower than all the available players in this tier. But we're dealing with small samples, where Hakeem's teams underperformed vs their full-season rate.

What if we curve Hakeem's numbers up, based on his team's full-season play (so if Hakeem's teams performed 12% worse in the games we have vs their full-season rating, what if we assume the underperformance is equally from Hakeem and his teammates and so boost Hakeem's numbers by 12%)?
Hakeem ends up having +1.7 in 1988, +3.4 in 1991, +4.8 in 1996. Which is an improvement!... that still isn't enough to get Hakeem over the better years of literally any of the other available players in this tier.

Okay, if we still think the measurement is too noisy, what if we only compare the full-season data at equivalent ages (so age 34+). This gives a handle on how players aged, and maybe can help us infer prime value based on the decline.
Hakeem (age 34+): 3.37, 3.11, 2.62, 1.56, 0.5, 1.04
Shaq (age 34+): 1.97, 2.96, 0.62, -1.32, 0.43.
Duncan (age 34+): 3.26, 5.1, 5.24, 4.03, 3.04
Garnett (age 34+): 5.73, 6.89, 6.3, 3.46, 1.53
Kobe (age 34+): 0.74, 1.89, 0.18, -0.86
Finally, at least he's not last again!

So in (limited) prime RAPM, Hakeem looks worse than every available player in this tier. As an older player, Hakeem looks better than Shaq and Kobe (but under Duncan and Garnett). But again, this data is not ideal, and it may not capture his playoff improvement (which I'll try to get to in the coming posts/days).

Overall Takeaways: I’ll leave the box stats and playoff stats for a future post. These are important factors to consider (especially playoff stats for Hakeem), and I don’t want to rush them for now.

But in the mean time, these are all the true/“pure” impact stats we have for Hakeem. They all have limitations. Raw WOWY and WOWYR are both quite noisy with large uncertainty. The prime RAPM data use small samples, and are thus noisy. And the post-prime RAPM data is less noisy, but misses the seasons we’re actually interested in. However, taken together, they can still be used to help pin down the value of prime Hakeem. And what I've checked (so far) puts Hakeem towards the bottom of this tier.

Looking at players who are currently up for being voted in:
-Russell > Hakeem. The raw WOWY (multi-season lineup changes) data clearly favor Russell, as do all the adjusted WOWY data. We have no Russell RAPM data.
-Shaq >! Hakeem. Shaq’s better in every raw WOWY and adjusted WOWY stat, and his prime RAPM is significantly ahead. The only advantage Hakeem seems to have is age 34+ RAPM, so you’d need a very heavy longevity weighting to prefer Hakeem to Shaq.
-Duncan >~ Hakeem. You can argue Hakeem if you heavily weight raw WOWY data, but the adjusted WOWY data (WOWYR, GPM, etc.) favor Duncan, the available prime RAPM data significantly favors Duncan, as does the late-career full-season RAPM.

-Hakeem > Wilt. Wilt is a more interesting discussion. WOWY-based data has never been quite as high on Wilt. Hakeem is higher in the raw WOWY data, and is higher in the adjusted WOWY data (though not by much, well within the bounds of uncertainty). We have no Wilt RAPM, so it seems like the available data favors Hakeem.
For those who'd like to make a pro-Wilt argument, some of this can be explained with context: Wilt has down years in 1965/69/70/73, which are the very same years he’s switching teams/injured/retiring, so his available WOWY samples may be dominated by the down years. Alternatively, an argument for Wilt may focus more on box stats, or focus more on evaluating Wilt’s “talent” over his per-season “impact”.

As for the other players, WOWY/available RAPM data pretty clearly favors the all-time guards (Oscar, West, Magic, Curry) as well as Garnett and possibly Bird, so it may be time to start nominating them. A longevity-heavy, playoff-heavy weighting might be able to push Hakeem past some of them, but many of these players are favored in all the available impact metrics.

Since Hakeem has been nominated already (and the others haven't), this to me suggests that people are either not valuing the impact data we have that heavily (at least compared to box stats or film or qualitative analysis), or perhaps are valuing longevity and inferred playoff improvement enough to push out the non-bigs (despite their per-season advantage over some of these bigs). I'd love to hear thoughts on this.

Me personally, I'm not ready to have Hakeem at the very bottom of these tiers (particularly given the longevity, and possibly given the playoff-improvement pending more film/data analysis)... but I do find it somewhat concerning (for a Top 10 player) that his adjusted WOWY data is so low, and that he has literally no single (available) RAPM sample that would put him at strong-MVP or all time. I might have him closer to ~10th, rather than fighting for 4th.

Sources:
-Thinking Basketball's Prime WOWY/WOWYR dataset (the traditional source for WOWY/WOWYR)
-Curry raw WOWY was approximately calculated by me in the RealGM Greatest Peaks Project
-Squared2020's RAPM for historical players (the traditional source for historical RAPM)
-Goldstein's RAPM for post-1997 (the traditional source for RAPM)


Hakeem is ahead in Scaled WOWYRand Alt Scaled. He falls behind Duncan in 10-year Scaled GPM. Hakeem's Prime WOWYR is the same as Duncan's, and he has a higher Prime WOWYR. Hakeem falls slightly behind Duncan in average due to to the decent discrepancy between between their GPM values. However, their averages are nearly equal and Hakeem actually looks better in multiple variations of WOWY.
Thanks for following up on this Luka! You're right they're quite close in adjusted WOWY metrics.

To get a little more detail, our 3 adjusted WOWY-based stats are:
Hakeem: Prime WOWYR (5.3), Alt-prime WOWYR (6.5), GPM (4.7).
Duncan: Prime WOWYR (5.2), Alt-prime WOWYR (5.0), GPM (6.9).
[for those who don’t know, WOWYR is calculated using players only above a certain minute threshold, to avoid noise by over-fitting/crediting players who barely play. You can lower that minute threshold to get alt-WOWYR. It's generally less accurate than Prime WOWYR, but it was included by TB because it has some variation on who it likes compared to Prime WOWYR].

Hakeem’s overall average: 5.5
Duncan’s overall average: 5.7

Like I said, the overall adjusted WOWY metrics favor Duncan, but it’s very slight. They’re basically tied in traditional WOWYR, with Hakeem just eking by (by 0.1, a much smaller margin than our uncertainty of ~1–2). Hakeem is clearly ahead in alt-WOWYR, Duncan is ahead by more in GPM and ahead in the overall average. Alt-WOWYR is our least trusted metric, in the sense that it does the worst job at predicting team wins or correlating with RAPM.

Since Duncan’s ahead in the more trusted metrics and slightly ahead in the three metric average, that’s why I said Duncan was *slightly* favored by adjusted WOWY metrics. But it’s close. Hakeem has a clearer advantage in raw WOWY like you say, and Duncan has a clearer advantage in RAPM.


Your point about alt-WOWYR raised a question for me: Are you aware of which one of traditional WOWYR or GPM correlates better with RAPM? And relatedly, do these WOWYR measures correlate with RAPM more or less than raw WOWY (not really sure how exactly one would go about determining if raw WOWY correlates, since it’s based on limited data snippets in specific years, so maybe there’s just not an answer to this)?

The way I see it, WOWY-related stuff is most useful in the sense that it can allow us to, in a way, approximate RAPM-like data in the era before play-by-play data exists. So, I’m a little curious which measure actually seems to do that the best in the years where we have both.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#172 » by DraymondGold » Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:57 pm

OhayoKD wrote:Welcome back! :D
Cheers! Big Hakeem post incoming...
Part A: Hakeem’s Playoff Improvement
OhayoKD wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:Hakeem in Impact Metrics
Given all the discussion on Hakeem, I thought it might be interesting to go through all the available impact data we have. All of the stats we have are imperfect (RAPM has small samples, WOWY-based stuff is noisy), but I'd argue that they can still help us get a handle on a player when examined on the whole, in conjunction with contextual and film analysis. I'm going to start this post by summarizing the available 'pure' impact metrics, with the hope of getting more into the box/hybrid metrics, context, and film analysis in the upcoming days/threads.

So: how do available (pure) impact metrics rate Hakeem relative in the upcoming tiers? I'll use the previous projects' remaining Top 14 players plus Curry for these tiers. In chronological order: Russel, Wilt, Oscar, West, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Curry.

Raw WOWY: This is probably Hakeem's most favorable impact stat. How does he look?
-10-year Prime WOWY: Oscar, West, Bird, Shaq, Garnett, Curry > Hakeem. (Magic barely behind).

Indeed. But that is regular-season specific. We did just vote a guy who ranks lower in Ben's version(similar in the simple stat-muse ones) largely on the basis of playoff elevation(team-wide and box). Hakeem looks like an even bigger riser with an even bigger "box" increase to boot. Shaq's teams generally fall-off, Bird(and to a degree Steph) is a pretty well established-faller, KG(my incoming nomination vote), be it due to inability or lack of opportunity never established a significant postseason-track record(statistically falls a bit, but I value his 04 run highly), and Oscar/West were not established elevators(largely thanks to a player I voted for in the #3 thread and have as the #1 era=relative prime).
Indeed! These are just regular season numbers. But I think it’s worth asking a few questions.

1. How much do we expect Hakeem to improve in the playoffs? 5%? 10%? 15 or 20%? Even more?
2. How much would Hakeem have to improve (or would other players have to decline) for him to close the gap with these other players in the playoffs?
3. If Hakeem does end up being the more valuable playoff performer, how much more valuable does he need to be to make up for the regular season gap (which in theory would give his teams lower playoff seedings than other stars and thus make championships less likely)?

To answer these questions, I think it’s important to quantify how much Hakeem improves in the playoffs. We actually have some Augmented Plus Minus numbers to analyze the modern players. As a reminder, AuPM combines plus minus data and box data to try to estimate RAPM in small samples (like the playoffs, when we don’t have enough games to get a trustworthy RAPM value in a single playoff run).

How do the modern players in this tier compare in AuPM?
Player: Avg RS AuPM/G; Avg Playoff Change; Avg PS AuPM/G; percentage of playoffs when they improve.
Hakeem: 2.47; +0.37; 2.83; 50% [1994-1995]
Shaq: 3.88; +0.28; 4.15; 67%
Duncan: 3.60; +0.30; 3.90; 50%
Garnett: 3.58; + .33; 3.90; 50%
Kobe: 3.16; +0.11; 3.26; 33%
Curry: 5.11; -0.07; 5.04; 57%

Qualifier: We do only have a limited sample size for Hakeem, but 1994 and 1995 are often considered his playoff peak (though personally I prefer 1993-1994 as overall years).

A few observations:
-Regular season: The regular season rankings correlates *approximately* with how WOWY and available RAPM see these players in the regular season. Curry is on top by a massive margin, Shaq and KG are above Hakeem (like prime WOWY and prime RAPM), Duncan’s above Hakeem (unlike prime WOWY but like WOWYR and RAPM), Kobe and Hakeem are at the end (although this puts Kobe above Hakeem, like prime RAPM but unlike WOWY and late-career RAPM). There’s some changing of the exact order, but the approximate groupings are the same as those I gave by looking at trends across WOWY/WOWYR/RAPM
-Playoff improvement: Hakeem is the biggest playoff riser! He improves by +0.37 AuPM. Garnett, Duncan, and Shaq are the next biggest playoff risers. Kobe and Curry improve the least.
-Hakeem: However, Hakeem doesn’t improve in the playoffs *nearly* enough to catch up, particularly to the Shaq/Duncan/KG/Curry group.
-Curry: Curry’s still first. Although he’s the only playoff faller in the group, he’s so far ahead in the regular season that a small playoff fall isn’t enough for others to catch up. Notably Curry actually improves in 57% of his playoffs (4/7): this suggests that he really only gets worse when he’s injured, but that those injuries are enough to bring his average playoff change down to be slightly negative

Since you value WOWY, what if we apply these playoff changes to our WOWY data? Let’s look at how much the players rise/fall in playoff AuPM by percentage and apply that to these players’ regular season WOWY. Hakeem improves his AuPM in the playoffs by 15%, Shaq by 7%, Duncan by 8%, Garnett by 9%, Kobe by 3%, Curry falls by -1%.

If we do this, Hakeem just passes Shaq in playoffs-only WOWY (but not by a clear enough margin to be free of their uncertainty range), but he’s still behind both KG and Curry.

Part B: Qualitative Arguments and Longevity
Qualitatively:
You suggest Shaq, Bird, and Curry are playoff fallers, citing team performance and box stats to various extents.
-Are you sure Shaq’s teams have a playoff fall-off? I seem to recall his team offensive results not dropping off at least, but I may be misremembering. I’m open to seeing something I've missed.
-Bird and Curry are both off-ball heavy players with a greater injury risk than Hakeem. I think it’s worth distinguishing between the drop off in box stats when they’re injured (which I’d argue is real) vs any drop off in box stats when healthy. If there is a drop off in their healthy playoff runs (which isn’t always true), this may be because box stats miss their off-ball value. Both Bird and Curry face massive defensive attention in the playoffs, and their counter (unlike Hakeem!) is often to go off-ball and create opportunities for teammates with their spacing, gravity, by drawing double teams and opening up passing lanes for teammates, etc. These kind of actions can be missed by box stats but captured by plus minus data. I’m not aware of enough plus minus data for playoff Bird, but for Curry, this seems true: his playoff plus minus data (like AuPM above) show that Curry doesn’t have enough of a playoff drop-off to put him below playoff Hakeem.
-For the older players, no disagreement about Russell > Hakeem. Wilt’s a unique enough player that it might be worth leaving him for a separate post.
-What makes you say “West was not [an] established elevator” in the playoffs? If anything, I’d say he has quite the opposite reputation as one of the biggest playoff risers ever. His team performance and box stats certainly go up relative to era: his teams look like the best offensive dynasty of the 60s even over Oscar’s, for example. And his scoring certainly improve more than just about anyone’s, up there with Hakeem and Jordan.
OhayoKD wrote:With that in mind, Hakeem also has excellent career-wide "lift"(-2.8 to +2.5) despite playing significantly more than Bird, Curry, Magic, West, or Oscar(averages tend to go down over bigger stretches). So altogether a top-10 in-the-convo-for-era-best rs profile paired with nigh unrivalled playoff-elevation(Lebron is really the only peer imo), paired with a raw longetvity advantage already marks Hakeem as a strong candidate over the field. The only players I'd mark as definitively superior-looking would be Lebron, Kareem, and Russell. I also think Duncan looks better(fantastic rs portfolio(+7.7, +0.6 without from 1998-2008, +7.7 with, +1.4 without from 1998-2015), great team success(4-championships in prime, 2 gauntlets, 1 dominant run) with not absurd-looking support, elevation in 02/03), but the playoffs make that murkier.

Those also happen to be the 4 players I'd rate higher, but all 4 benefitted from far more favorable on/off-court situations(For Lebron that was somewhat self-made) as did pretty much every other player mentioned in this comparison(excepting Wilt and Garnett).
Longevity:
Yep, fair point here. Injuries unfortunately dented the careers of many of the best all-time bigs (West, Magic, Bird, Curry), so if you rate Hakeem over them because of longevity, that’s very reasonable.

If you’ll allow me one push-back: Even if you weigh longevity heavily, there’s still a WOWY-based case for the outlier WOWY guards (Oscar, West, Curry) and even some of the bigs with greater longevity (KG, Shaq). To quote your (sage) advice, WOWY "is a rate stat!"

I don’t have the full career lift numbers on me, so this is more of a rough estimate (but I’d encourage others to check this calculation with the better numbers!). It’s more to illustrate the point. What if we multiply each player’s Prime WOWY (which is in units of per game, right?) with their total number of games...

Curry: +10.2 per game * 882 games= +8996.4 in his career
Oscar: +8.4 per game * 1040 games= +8736.0 in his career
Garnett: +5.7 per game * 1462 games = +8333.4 in his career
West: +7.8 per game * 932 games = +7269.6 in his career
Shaq: +5.5 per game * 1207 games = +6638.5 in his career
Hakeem: +5.2 per game * 1238 games= +6437.6. in his career

Again, this is just a ballpark estimate to get a rough estimate of total career WOWY. Since I’m only using prime WOWY rather than full-career WOWY, if you think Hakeem has the best non-prime years in WOWY, he may rise a bit. And this is regular season only, so that may also make Hakeem rise (although I’ve argued the playoff improvement is not enough, smaller than people think). But even with these assumptions, I think it’s significant that West, Oscar, and Curry can all end up with clearly better career raw WOWY despite the worse longevity! Garnett also has higher career WOWY, boosted by his better prime WOWY and his better longevity. Shaq's ahead, but his advantage is small.

Part C: Multi-year Lineup changes
OhayoKD wrote:
-Multi-season lineup changes (the OhayoKD special): Russell looks GOAT-level and definitely gets above Hakeem. Others may look better as well, but there's less of a single database to check for these full-season trade/injury/rookie/retirement-based WOWY data.

I'm honored to have a special :D

but context is important using said extraps(the trade-off for larger samples is noise), and specifically what you're comparing. And while clearly not a match for Russell(no one really is with a truly era-relative, rather than srs-relative approach). In this case Hakeem's "extraps" come on a team which did shockingly well in his first-three years in the league but started coking-up as early as 1986. With this in mind I think the "extrap" looks decent:
Ben has his own(presumably more sophisticated) approach which likes Hakeem even better; "Prime WOWY" ranks Olajuwon 10th. Magic and Jordan rank 12th and 20th, respectively. Keep in mind the samples here are much, much smaller, but at least there aren't extraneous distortions to worry about as we may with something like WOWYR

Getting back to larger samples(or in this case, the largest possible sample), Drafting Hakeem produces a +5 SRS improvement for the Rockets without significant roster additions(this is top-ten worthys, and better than what Magic or Jordan managed), and they've reached the final(interrupting a dynasty on the way) by year two. That start looks GOAT-worthy. Then, when various catastrophes take place starting in 1987, Hakeem still does an admiral job keeping a shipwreck afloat before capitalizing spectacularly with limited help.

In retrospect "goat-worthy" was hyperbolic(Kareem and Lebron win-out rather clearly), but I think it is a positive addition to his case in a comparison with most of the players you list.

We can also look at teammate-signals where notable "co-stars" like sampson(half-a-season) and thorpe(16-games) leave for substantial stretches and the Rockets are basically unaffected(you might note this is basically a a much cleaner version of what WOWYR does with a much larger per/szn sample of 'off").

Cannot say the same for the celtics without mchale or the warriors without draymond. Comparable to Duncan without 03 Ginobli though. Overall, would say this strengthens his case a bit further.
Indeed, you do have a special :D

And thanks for the extra info — Interesting stuff. One issue I have with this (purely on a practical level) is that there’s no single database to check the multi-year lineup change WOWY, like the kind you get from rookie year, trades, near season-long injuries, and retirements. While we have a single place we can look for 10 year Prime WOWY, 10 year Prime WOWYR, even individual raw WOWY stretches (within a single season), there’s no single spot to look for these multi-year lineup changes.

It might be worth having someone create an organized database for this, at least for the usual suspects (say the standard top 15-20 players). I’m thinking of having a marker for what happened in the player’s career (Rookie year / trade leaving team A / trade joining team B / ~season-long injury / retirement), a marker for how many games the “on” sample is, how many games the “off” sample is, the raw WOWY (ideally based on change in SRS but MoV would do).

Optional improvements to this database might include a correction factor for diminishing returns on good teams & associated WOWY uncertainty based on sample size (like Thinking Basketball provides for their within-one-season WOWY data), and major changes in the team roster/coaching staff from the two seasons (as this is one of the major blindspots of this kind of raw data).

Obviously it would take a lot of work to put together systematically, but it would be a fantastic resource to have in one spot. And make it a lot easier to compare e.g. Hakeem vs Duncan vs West vs Curry, etc. with this kind of data.

Part D: RAPM
OhayoKD wrote:
RAPM: We have small samples of Hakeem's RAPM, thanks to Squared2020. We have ~136 prime games (14 games in 1988 + 25 games in 1991 + 19 games in 1996 = 58 games in his 10-year prime.

58-games over 3-years(and keep in mind the "off" here is not full-games, simply whatever minutes he's off) does not strike me as something one should put significant weight on.
Squared2020 Prime RAPM (small samples):
I put slightly more weight on possession data (i.e. RAPM) relative to WOWY and may put slightly more weight on 58 games (136 including 1997), but that may just differences in our weightings and criteria. Which is okay!

Even if you think the Squared2020 samples are too small to be trusted, I would just point out that it’s an interesting coincidence that Hakeem has clearly worse RAPM than the others, even in years that are near his defensive peak (I’d have 88 and 91 on either side of his defensive peak in 89-90). If the signal remains in larger samples, that might suggest his defense doesn’t have as much separation over Duncan/Garnett as previously thought, or his (regular season) offense might be much less additive than previously thought.

OhayoKD wrote:As is, when we use proper samples...
Okay, if we still think the measurement is too noisy, what if we only compare the full-season data at equivalent ages (so age 34+). This gives a handle on how players aged, and maybe can help us infer prime value based on the decline.
Hakeem (age 34+): 3.37, 3.11, 2.62, 1.56, 0.5, 1.04
Shaq (age 34+): 1.97, 2.96, 0.62, -1.32, 0.43.
Duncan (age 34+): 3.26, 5.1, 5.24, 4.03, 3.04
Garnett (age 34+): 5.73, 6.89, 6.3, 3.46, 1.53
Kobe (age 34+): 0.74, 1.89, 0.18, -0.86
Finally, at least he's not last again!

Ah, but you're forgetting something. RAPM is a rate-stat. To properly assess impact, we also need volume. And when we do that:

Image
(Hakeem)
Image
(Duncan)
Image
(Garnett
Image
(Shaq)
Image
(Kobe)

When we consider, volume I'd say Hakeem looks rather impressive, performing far better than Kobe with similar minutes, far better than Shaq despite more minutes and only worse than KG and Duncan who averaged significantly less minutes following shorter primes.
Goldstein Late-career RAPM (full season samples):
RAPM is a rate-stat. Good point!

But isn’t it a per 100 possessions stat, not a per minute stat? I believe you’ve circled their minutes per game? Let me know if I’m misreading these images.

*quickly googles* Yeah, I think RAPM is usually given per 100 possessions (e.g. https://squared2020.com/2017/09/18/deep-dive-on-regularized-adjusted-plus-minus-i-introductory-example/, https://www.nbastuffer.com/analytics101/adjusted-plus-minus/, https://jecutter.github.io/blog/rapm-model/ ).

How do these change if we look at RAPM per Season (adjusting for total season possessions)? He may still end up over Kobe or Shaq (Kobe certainly wouldn’t surprise me!). But if he still ends up being behind KG or Duncan, I’d argue that’s a point in their favor, no?

Part E: Summary
[cutting your stuff about Hakeem's prime WOWY, career WOWY, and team playoff performance because something in there is causing a formatting error in my reply. I may try to get to the team performance stuff at a later date. That leaves us with the Duncan comparison and the summary:]
OhayoKD wrote:Personally, they look extremely similar(as one might expect), so why don't we check how Duncan's impact looks

raw extended
1998-2015 Duncan: +7.4 with, +1.4 without
1998-2008 Duncan: +7.7 with, +0.6 without

Concentrated/multi-season-adjustments(relative to Jordan), AKA "The Ohayo special"
Spoiler:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107489778#p107489778
TLDR:
-> 2004/2005 Spurs with improved help from 03 are roughly a 48-win team
-> 1999 D-rob's production and minutes degrades from 1998 after career-crippling injury, peak D-rob leads teams similar to the 94 bulls
-> Spurs win 4 championships with support i'd estimate at weak(2003) to good-but-not-stacked(1999, 2005, 2007), always winning at least 50, (for the regular-season, hit +7 in 1999(60-win pace w-l), hit +6 in 2002 and +5.3 in 2003 with 58 and 60 actual wins respectively, and look significantly better using standard deviation or comparing to the field)
-> Language was too strong/definitive, but 1999 is dominant and 2007/2005 are impressive considering the opposition quality
-> Looks great in a box/impact hybrid
-> Input Duncan's 3-5 years as similar to Mike's(mantain the internal-scaling) and Ben's formula probably puts Duncan's CORP ahead
(I used the wrong BPM, disregard those notes)


RAPM(Cheema)
5-year peaks(rs and playoffs):
Image
Career-wide(rs and playoffs):
Image
5-year Rolling
Image

In Summary

Hakeem, by "box" looks very similar(rs and playoffs) and is a similar type of player as a guy who arguably sports the best non-lebron(recently voted as a comfortable #1) apm portfolio since 1997(notably including Shaq, KG, Curry, and MJ when he played on his 2nd and 5th best regular season teams). Hakeem also looks the part in proper RAPM sets when we account for minutes played, and also looks great by career and prime rs-samples(even tinier rapm samples excepted), also looks great in large stretches without key teammates(that thing WOWYR tries to do), and also looks great when we focus in on larger, concentrated samples

And that is all the regular-season.

I still think I'm going to favor Russell and Duncan but as of now I have Hakeem as the 5th greatest player ever, and I would hope we don't let his "reputation" dominate how we assess him as a contributor to winning.

(Thanks for reading! :D)
No qualms with rating Duncan highly. The APM type stuff is very favorable to him. I’m not convinced he’s clear of KG or Curry depending on your source for RAPM, but he clearly has the longevity advantage at least over Curry.

My biggest issue with Hakeem, skill-wise, has always been his passing and creation. Creation more generally (be it with passing, screening, movement off-ball, etc.) tends to be very important whether looking at plus minus type data, WOWY type data, and even team results. And Duncan was been a *far* more willing passer Hakeem for much of their career, as well as the more willing screener, the better off-ball rebounder, off-ball leader / offensive communicator, etc.

Most of the tracking I’ve done for Hakeem shows him shooting into double teams and triple teams far more than I would like. His passing and off-ball skills (e.g. screening, rebounding, etc.) seem to be lag behind some of the other all-time bigs like Duncan, Wilt, Russell, KG, etc. So:
-when I see his prime RAPM (in his worse passing years) much lower than… basically everyone in this tier (including lower than Duncan, his closest stylistic match),
-when I see him being rated lower in adjusted WOWY metrics,
-when I see him being rated lower than at least some people in this tier in some late-career RAPM or even raw WOWY….
then I fear that his lack of a creation game through much of his prime may be bringing down his defense and scoring. To me, that lack of creation and passing is what distinguishes him and Duncan, and I worry his box stats that are similar to Duncan may be missing this. I’m not quite ready to have him 5th (to me he’s still closer to 10th, like I said in my last post)

Let me know what you think! :D
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#173 » by One_and_Done » Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:11 pm

Looks like Bam Russell is going to win, which is the first vote I really disagree with. Next thread is shaping up like a Duncan coronation, so I'll be focusing more on my runner up choices soon which will be Shaq, followed by Magic and Hakeem.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#174 » by 70sFan » Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:13 pm

Sorry that I can't answer to everything, as I said I don't have much time to contribute that much. I will just share 2007/08 Bowen and Duncan DRtg numbers from pbp.com database:

Bowen: 102.00
No Bowen: 101.58

Duncan: 101.59
No Duncan: 102.33

Duncan and Bowen: 101.98
Duncan, no Bowen: 100.41
Bowen, no Duncan: 102.07
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#175 » by DraymondGold » Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:34 pm

lessthanjake wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:
Spoiler:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Hakeem is ahead in Scaled WOWYRand Alt Scaled. He falls behind Duncan in 10-year Scaled GPM. Hakeem's Prime WOWYR is the same as Duncan's, and he has a higher Prime WOWYR. Hakeem falls slightly behind Duncan in average due to to the decent discrepancy between between their GPM values. However, their averages are nearly equal and Hakeem actually looks better in multiple variations of WOWY.
Thanks for following up on this Luka! You're right they're quite close in adjusted WOWY metrics.

To get a little more detail, our 3 adjusted WOWY-based stats are:
Hakeem: Prime WOWYR (5.3), Alt-prime WOWYR (6.5), GPM (4.7).
Duncan: Prime WOWYR (5.2), Alt-prime WOWYR (5.0), GPM (6.9).
[for those who don’t know, WOWYR is calculated using players only above a certain minute threshold, to avoid noise by over-fitting/crediting players who barely play. You can lower that minute threshold to get alt-WOWYR. It's generally less accurate than Prime WOWYR, but it was included by TB because it has some variation on who it likes compared to Prime WOWYR].

Hakeem’s overall average: 5.5
Duncan’s overall average: 5.7

Like I said, the overall adjusted WOWY metrics favor Duncan, but it’s very slight. They’re basically tied in traditional WOWYR, with Hakeem just eking by (by 0.1, a much smaller margin than our uncertainty of ~1–2). Hakeem is clearly ahead in alt-WOWYR, Duncan is ahead by more in GPM and ahead in the overall average. Alt-WOWYR is our least trusted metric, in the sense that it does the worst job at predicting team wins or correlating with RAPM.

Since Duncan’s ahead in the more trusted metrics and slightly ahead in the three metric average, that’s why I said Duncan was *slightly* favored by adjusted WOWY metrics. But it’s close. Hakeem has a clearer advantage in raw WOWY like you say, and Duncan has a clearer advantage in RAPM.


Your point about alt-WOWYR raised a question for me: Are you aware of which one of traditional WOWYR or GPM correlates better with RAPM? And relatedly, do these WOWYR measures correlate with RAPM more or less than raw WOWY?

The way I see it, WOWY-related stuff is most useful in the sense that it can allow us to, in a way, approximate RAPM-like data in the era before play-by-play data exists. So, I’m a little curious which measure actually seems to do that the best in the years where we have both.
Good questions, and something that might be worth asking Ben (Thinking Basketball) about :D

WOWYR vs GPM: I'm not aware of specifics unfortunately.
For WOWYR, we're told "correlation coefficient of 0.67 (for scaled results) and an average error (MAE) of 1.1 points." So it definitely correlates well with RAPM, but there's also definitely uncertainty.
For GPM, we're told GPM "will yield a better ballpark of those players with relatively consistent 10-year primes" (due to mathematically complex reasons), but it's left up to us to determine who the consistent and inconsistent players are. For the Wilt fans out there, this might be evidence that GPM (an adjusted WOWY metric) does a poor job at capturing Wilt's value... if anyone is inconsistent year to year, Wilt is (changing teams, massively changing play styles, changing goals each season from trying to lead the league in scoring in 62 vs trying to lead the league assists in 68 vs trying to lead the league in FG% in 73, etc.). If we discount GPM for Wilt and look at our other Adjusted WOWYR stats (Prime WOWYR and alt-Prime WOWYR), Wilt looks clearly better than Duncan and Russell (though the WOWYR article talks about how the context may somewhat underrate Russell here), tied with Hakeem, just below Garnett/Shaq, and within uncertainty range to argue him above anyone.
We're also told GPM does a better job at accounting for "varying point differentials over the years" (i.e. at correcting for changing Standard Deviations in SRS, which ties into the earlier conversation).
But unfortunately we have no info on how well in correlates with RAPM.

In general, Thinking Basketball recommends looking at all adjusted WOWY metrics together (WOWYR, alt-WOWYR, GPM) and seeing if a player looks good in all 3 or on average, and checking whether there are methodological reasons that a metric may do worse at judging certain players (such as GPM with Wilt). Of course, he stresses this is a high-uncertainty metric that shouldn't be taken

Prime WOWYR vs Prime WOWY: No quantitative measures are given, but it's implied WOWYR does better. WOWY is a raw, unadjusted impact metric, just like on/off but using games instead of possessions to measure value. WOWYR is an adjusted impact metric, like APM/RAPM. So it makes sense that WOWYR would do better at predicting RAPM.

Adjusted WOWY metrics in general are explicitly said to do a better job than Prime WOWY at estimating the value of players who don't miss a ton of games or get traded during their best seasons (he explicitly calls out prime Jordan and Russell, with GPM doing the best job at measuring Russell's standard-deviation-style dominance in his era). However, certain contexts can cause higher uncertainties for players (he explicitly states Bird's WOWYR values have high uncertainty and likely underrate him, by falsely giving small-sample Reggie Lewis some of his value).

Qualifier: we don't just have 10-year prime WOWY (looking at changes within a single season when a player's in or out), we also have the individual sample Multi-season Lineup Change based WOWY. This is the kind of stuff OhayoKD tends to use. It includes
A) Rookie years (comparing team SRS/MOV the season before a player joins and the season after),
B) Trade years (comparing Team A's SRS/MOV the season before they left and the season after they left, and Team B's SRS/MOV the season before they joined and the season after they joined)
C) ~Season-long injuries (Comparing team SRS/MOV the season before/after a player's major injury vs during the injured year(
D) Retirement years (comparing team SRS/MOV in the last season of a player vs after they retired).
This can get you much bigger off/out sample sizes than raw Prime WOWY (which helps for e.g. players like Russell). However, it's not always available in a player's best years, and it can also be biased if players improve/fall-off during one of the seasons, if lineups change, or even if coaching staffs change between the two seasons (some of these may limit its accuracy e.g. for Jordan). This kind of multi-season lineup change WOWY has not been systematically collected into a database to compare its accuracy vs RAPM or WOWYR. Maybe one day!

My General Philosophy: You say WOWY-based stuff should generally be used to approximate RAPM/impact for the earlier guys. In general, that's consistent with how I use it.

To me, I try to check all the available stats: Plus minus stuff if they're available, raw Prime WOWY, adjusted WOWY metrics (WOWYR, GPM), multi-season lineup change WOWY, (and even the dreaded box-based metrics). There's a few possibilities that might ensue...

Case 1: WOWY/adjusted WOWY and RAPM agree that a player's always great (e.g. Curry). If a player's consistently great across the board, they're probably pretty valuable! So I tend to rank them pretty highly.

Case 2: WOWY and adjusted WOWY metrics disagree, limited RAPM data (e.g. Jordan, Russell). If different WOWY/WOWYR metrics evaluate the same differently, then I try to look into the context to see which stat I believe more. Generally I prefer the adjusted WOWY metrics though, as adjusting for teammates is obviously pretty important in impact data.

Case 3: WOWY/adjusted WOWY disagree with RAPM (e.g. Nash, Chris Paul). Here I tend to prefer RAPM / other plus minus data, as it's generally less noisy. However, it's not systematic. Both types of stats are trying to measure impact in a given role, and they measure impact using different signals, so it's possible for WOWY type stuff to be picking up something real that RAPM is missing.
Take Steve Nash, who's much higher in WOWY and WOWYR than he is in RAPM. Generally, WOWY type stuff is biased towards players who *are* the system. These are the kind of players who are harder to replace when they miss a few games or even a longer stretch of games, which drastically drops the team performance when the players are off (and thus improves their WOWY stats). I take the fact that Nash's WOWY is so high as a sign that the offensive system was completely dependent on him. Which could be used to argue in favor of Nash as a GOAT level offensive player, but the fact that his overall RAPM stuff is lower than GOAT level part of the reason I generally rate Nash lower than e.g. Curry all time (who's also an offensive GOAT candidate, with GOAT level WOWY stuff and plus minus stuff).
Another factor: WOWY type stuff is biased against players with great, versatile coaches. Better coaches can do a better job adjusting the system when a star player is out, limiting how bad the drop-off is (and thus underrating their WOWY). Worse coaches build their teams around their star player, but don't do a good job adjusting their system when a star player is out. So when an all-time player who's paired with an all-time coach has slightly worse raw WOWY stats than expected (e.g. Jordan with Jackson, Duncan with Popovich), I tend to curve those players' ratings up accordingly. This is one area where adjusted WOWY stats may do a better job at measuring a player's impact than raw WOWY: it sees how much less the Bulls fall off without Pippen/Grant compared to Jordan, it sees how less the Spurs fall off without Parker or Bowen compared to Duncan, and thinks "hey, maybe these Jordan and Duncan guys are a little better than their raw WOWY suggests..."
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#176 » by lessthanjake » Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:47 pm

DraymondGold wrote:.


Excellent response—thank you! I think we are on the same page as to how we look at and weigh these different measures.

The point about good coaches adjusting seems like a really good one, though of course there’s no way to actually quantify it. As is often true, even with hard data, the interpretation of the data ends up requiring subjective judgments and weighting.

EDIT: The coaching thing does lead me to a point that relates back to Steph Curry, who I’ve been talking about a lot. The Warriors have not done well in games Steph hasn’t played. But they actually *do* have a coach that I think we’d all consider quite good. One interpretation of that is that WOWY therefore *underrates* Steph Curry, even though it still has him being essentially GOAT-level. That actually seems like a reasonable inference to me, but it’s also possible that Steve Kerr is a good coach overall who isn’t great at adjustments like this.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#177 » by ijspeelman » Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:41 am

Although I’ve already voted, I’m still weighing Duncan v Russell. It’s hard for me to grasp a player who was dominate on both ends (Duncan) as being less impactful than someone I find to be a neutral offensive player at best (Russell).

I know it’s due to era and how Russell’s defensive position made up for his offensive deficiencies.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#178 » by lessthanjake » Thu Jul 13, 2023 1:05 am

Some food for thought, via Augmented Plus Minus numbers:

League Leader in AuPM/g by Season

1993-94: David Robinson
1994-95: David Robinson
1995-96: Michael Jordan
1996-97: Karl Malone
1997-98: Shaquille O’Neal
1998-99: Jason Kidd
1999-00: Shaquille O’Neal
2000-01: Shaquille O’Neal
2001-02: Tim Duncan
2002-03: Kevin Garnett
2003-04: Kevin Garnett
2004-05: Dirk Nowitzki
2005–06: Dwyane Wade
2006-07: Tim Duncan
2007-08: Kevin Garnett
2008-09: LeBron James
2009-10: LeBron James
2010-11: LeBron James
2011-12: LeBron James
2012-13: LeBron James
2013-14: Steph Curry
2014-15: Steph Curry
2015-16: Steph Curry
2016-17: Steph Curry
2017-18: Steph Curry
2018-19: Steph Curry
2019-20: Giannis Antetokounmpo
2020-21: Nikola Jokic
2021-22: Nikola Jokic
2022-23: Nikola Jokic

Average Regular Season AuPM/g in Prime Timespans we have data for

- Michael Jordan (1995-1996 to 1997-1998): 5.633
- Stephen Curry (2013-2014 to 2022-2023): 5.356
- LeBron James (2008-2009 to 2019-2020): 5.308
- Shaquille O’Neal (1997-1998 to 2004-2005): 4.90
- Tim Duncan (1998-1999 to 2006-2007): 4.822
- Kevin Garnett (1999-2000 to 2007-2008): 4.611
- Hakeem Olajuwon (1993-1994 to 1995-1996): 4.467

Average Playoff AuPM/g in Prime Timespans we have data for

- LeBron James (2008-2009 to 2019-2020: 6.010
- Michael Jordan (1995-1996 to 1997-1998): 5.700
- Stephen Curry (2013-2014 to 2022-2023): 5.578*
- Tim Duncan (1998-1999 to 2006-2007): 4.900
- Shaquille O’Neal (1997-1998 to 2004-2005): 4.900
- Kevin Garnett (1999-2000 to 2007-2008): 4.517
- Hakeem Olajuwon (1993-1994 to 1995-1996): N/A (no data)

* All the 2022-2023 playoff AuPM/g data feels to me like it’s too high, such that it might be on a different scale for some reason. If you take that out, Steph’s playoff average is instead 5.143. But note that, different scale or not, Steph had the 3rd highest AuPM/g in the 2022-2023 playoffs and only below Jokic out of players that made it out of the first round, so the number was good.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#179 » by ZeppelinPage » Thu Jul 13, 2023 1:48 am

Doctor MJ wrote:For me, I just keep going back to a fundamental basketball thing:

If you're taking what the defense will give you, then you shouldn't have a shoot-mode vs an assist-mode when you have the ball that takes place over extended periods of time like this. You make the best play. If they put to much individual pressure on you, exploit that with a pass, when they ease up, exploit it with scoring.


As 70sFan mentioned earlier I just don't think there is enough evidence of Wilt not doing this, especially when on film he is hitting cutters and passing off doubles just like Kareem would do. I mean, he was averaging 5 assists in '64 and '66.

I understand that Wilt was told to go for maximum points in '61-62, but he wasn't being told to go for maximum points in, say, '65-66, so why is it in '66-67 he dropped from being the guy who shot more FGA than anyone else on the team per minute to 9th out of 11 the next? And why did it work so, so much better? (Note, by TSA Wilt's a bit higher than 9th and I can calculate that if requested.)

Regardless of what we conclude for the RealGM 100, to me those questions are the most important thing for people to be asking and trying to understand.


Wilt isn't going for maximum points in '66 anyways. He's leading the entire team in assists! Factoring in offensive rebounds and tip-ins from the pace he's shooting around the same amount as Hakeem, Shaq, or any other all-time center is while averaging 5 assists. On film he's also passing and hitting players while still scoring similarly to how Kareem would.

Back to you Zep: I'm not alleging that these same limitations are on you. I know you care more about history than Seth does.


I appreciate that; right back at you. My main agreement with Seth, from a broad perspective on NBA history, is that we both see immense value for a team when a player consistently leads the league in both FGA and FG%. So we tend to scrutinize the team and coaches surrounding the player in question, rather than placing blame on him. I don't believe that passing to players like Guy Rodgers and Woody Sauldsberry, who have the two lowest career totals in TS Added, would have resulted in a better offense. I think a major difference in 1967 was the coaching change that instituted a new offense and allowed for improvement in guys like Chet Walker, Wali Jones, and Billy Cunningham to be open more often.

If Wilt were capable of achieving a normal balance between shooting & passing that was optimal in his environment based on what the defense gave him, why the drastic swings? I don't think it's realistic to think that when Hannum comes in in 1996 he insisted that Wilt shoot way less than everyone else. I think he gave Wilt a new focus, and this is what happened. A player already recognizing passing opportunities and making them as a matter of course wouldn't have seen such a drastic swing simply, but with Wilt it did, and that swing would go far more extreme in the years to come.

Was it was best for the team? Quite possibly...but if Wilt were good enough at making shooting vs passing decisions, why would it make sense to do this? It's not like he couldn't do that stuff while also getting rebounds and being a defensive threat.


I hear you and understand this viewpoint. A fundamental difference between our views is that I don't believe Hannum joined the team and specifically changed the offense because of Wilt. I think the modifications were more for the benefit of his teammates than anything. Under Schayes, there were fewer opportunities for Wilt to pass (despite being a willing passer). However, when Hannum implemented his "wheel offense"—a strategy involving players circulating around Wilt throughout a possession, it provided more openings for Wilt, which increased his opportunities to pass. With more talented teammates, this kind of offense worked wonders along with Wilt scoring so efficiently. But I think whether Wilt was scoring or passing more, the '67 team was going to function well around him like this. I blame the offensive results previous to 1967 more on Wilt's teammates and coaches than himself. Hannum had tried to institute this same wheel system with the Warriors in 1964 but the team had zero offensive talent and it actually made the offense worse compared to '62 and '63 because poor offensive players were shooting.

One thing I have to say is that I have never understood this scoring mode/passing mode thing that Ben Taylor came up with based on limited footage.

In 1967, Wilt is clearly not shooting much; he's fully engaged in "passing mode", not integrating his scoring and passing abilities. Yet, they have the greatest offense ever that year with him playing this way. He's not blending his scoring and passing, an approach considered crucial—yet he anchors this all-time great offense?

In December 1968, he reverts to his 1965 persona and shifts into "scoring mode", averaging 30/5 (nearly exactly what he did prior to '67), leading to a 15-2 record. He then reverts to full-on "passing mode" to finish the season and they finish 24-5.

In 1962, he's very clearly in his "scoring-mode" yet their offenses are better than in 1964, 1965, 1966, and not that far off from 1968, yet he was passing more in those seasons than in 1962.

I understand where you're coming from but I just don't buy that the lack of offensive results were his fault when most of his teammates are shooting below league average for their careers before 1967. He's a very efficient high-volume scorer and surrounded with more defensively-oriented teammates until 1965. After that point, his teammates weren't the kind of scorers yet (Chet and Cunningham would eventually improve) and the coaching strategies were lacking. Yes, they improve greatly in 1967 as a result of Wilt in Hannum's offense, but guys like Chet Walker and Wali Jones regress for much of the season in 1968 and the team gets worse with Wilt playing the same way as in 1967. Therefore, I don't think it's as simple as placing the blame on Wilt for the performances of his entire team.

Regardless, I don't believe that the footage or any other sources support this idea that he was not "blending" his abilities in 1964-1966. On film he passes out of double-teams, connects with cutters, and takes scoring opportunities when no one else is open. This is why I believe that the effectiveness of his play hinged more on his teammates and overall coaching than on any aspect of his personal performance.
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Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #4 (Deadline 7/12 11:59pm) 

Post#180 » by Dooley » Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:15 am

Apologies as I haven't had the time to engage as I'd like due to being unexpectedly busy with work & family stuff over the past week - that said I want to make sure I get a vote in this round and hopefully dive back in in more depth in coming rounds. So this will mostly just be an overview of my overall thoughts.

I generally find this to be a particularly difficult round to vote - in my mind, Jordan and Lebron separate themselves as the absolute best of the perimeter players; Kareem separates himself as the absolute best of the big men; once you get past those guys, the lines differentiating the different players are far less sharp and it's much harder to draw a bright line between different players in the same tier. That said, between the four players I think are really serious contenders here - Shaq, Wilt, Duncan, Hakeem - I think Shaq and Wilt are the two that you can more easily make criticisms of: Shaq for his relatively lackluster defense and shorter prime, Wilt for his short peak and the fact that (because of a combination of team circumstances and Wilt's own agency) Wilt often was in situations that did not maximize his ability as a basketball player.

That leaves Duncan and Hakeem, and I think the two are incredibly close - defensive geniuses, great two-way game, huge winning footprint. I accept that there are a lot of arguments that Duncan's supporting cast was much better than Hakeem's. But I think you still have to say that he was the centerpiece of the defense as a whole over many different periods. Yeah, he had help, but he was still basically the best defender on those teams IMO. And I've always been a little bit leery looking at the relatively fallow years in the middle of Hakeem's career; I think Duncan was much more consistent year-to-year, particularly in the RS. I'm generally really high on Duncan's offense as someone who could carry the load as a scorer but could also be a really super-premium #2 guy on offense. And I think Duncan was also just one of the truly great teammates in league history.

So, in light of those factors:

VOTE

1. Tim Duncan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon


For my nominee, not gonna think about it a super long time - I think Magic and Steph are the two most compelling candidates as GOAT point guard contenders, and between the two, I think Steph has the more interesting case to discuss (although I fully expect both to make it into the nominee pool very soon). So nomination - Steph Curry

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