The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 7)

[Run DLC]

I still see LeBron winning finals MVP, but he has to put in more effort in scoring.

[The Master]

If you could make a starting 5 of LeBrons but each position had to be a different season of LeBron, what would your lineup be?

I'm assuming something like this:

PG: 2019-20 LeBron
SG: 2012-13 LeBron
SF: 2013-14 LeBron
PF: 2017-18 LeBron
C : 2008-09 LeBron

PG: 2019-20 LeBron (best season in passing)
SG: 2012-13 LeBron (best season in shooting)
SF: 2008-09 LeBron (best season statistically as SF)
PF: 2011-12 LeBron (best defensive season as power forward left)
C: 2015-16 LeBron (best season in rim protection in playoffs)

[RCM88x]

PG: 2020
SG: 2009
SF: 2013
PF: 2018
C: 2016

[Heej]

This is actually pretty cool.

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It’s remarkable that in year 17 he’s still legitimately one of the greatest athletes in the game and one of the greatest physical specimens we have ever seen. He has clearly lost a step, but make believe you never had a 2004-2019 Lebron James to judge him against. Divorce yourself from prior Lebron comparisons and make believe that player did not exist. Make believe I show you this player in silhouette form so you don’t see the receding hair, greys in the beard or age in the face. You just see this guy running up and down the floor playing his game and doing his thing. I could convince you he was 23 years old. If 2020 Lebron James were your first exposure to this player you would come away blown away by his athleticism. His end to end speed, his lethal one legged jump that has made for some ridiculous above the rim forays in this postseason. He was such an amazing athlete in his prime that he could afford to clearly lose a decent chunk of athletic ability and still retain enough to be in the top 1 percentile athletically.

This is not the story of a guy in his advanced years merely falling back on his experience and vet savvy and basketball IQ to make big impacts (although his strengths there are certainly noteworthy). A large reason he’s still so great is because he’s legitimately one of the most impressive physical specimens out there at age 35

The way he just jumped over, through, and around Jimmy on that one flying reverse layup just made me feel bad for Butler. Like you're guarding a guy like that and he just bodies you in that fashion you can't help but acknowledge the sheer physical superiority this 35 year old man has over you. He's gotta be a 90th percentile athlete in the league, no? He was embarrassing Westbrook who's like 5 years younger and still a physical powerhouse.

[The Master]

I still see LeBron winning finals MVP, but he has to put in more effort in scoring.

Yeah, I think that ~28-10-9 will be enough, he needs to be close to AD in scoring, if he's able to average triple double it might be helpful as well. But this is probably short series, if one of them plays one crappy game like Steph used to in 17/18 then it's over.

[zimpy27]

If you could make a starting 5 of LeBrons but each position had to be a different season of LeBron, what would your lineup be?

I'm assuming something like this:

PG: 2019-20 LeBron
SG: 2012-13 LeBron
SF: 2013-14 LeBron
PF: 2017-18 LeBron
C : 2008-09 LeBron

PG: 2019-20 LeBron (best season in passing)
SG: 2012-13 LeBron (best season in shooting)
SF: 2008-09 LeBron (best season statistically as SF)
PF: 2011-12 LeBron (best defensive season as power forward left)
C: 2015-16 LeBron (best season in rim protection in playoffs)

He actually hit the most 3s and took some of the most 3s in 17-18 so maybe that should be the SG.
I agree with you at PG and SF
He was bigger in Miami so maybe 12-13 at PF and 13-14 at C, he had the most dunks in these seasons as a PF.

PG: 2019-20 LeBron
SG: 2017-18 LeBron
SF: 2008-09 LeBron
PF: 2012-13 LeBron
C : 2013-14 LeBron

[The Master]

He actually hit the most 3s and took some of the most 3s in 17-18 so maybe that should be the SG.
I agree with you at PG and SF
He was bigger in Miami so maybe 12-13 at PF and 13-14 at C, he had the most dunks in these seasons as a PF.

PG: 2019-20 LeBron
SG: 2017-18 LeBron
SF: 2008-09 LeBron
PF: 2012-13 LeBron
C : 2013-14 LeBron

In 12-13, it was his best offball version we've seen with Wade's last dance in regular season, and he was still able to guard small guys, that's why I chose him as SG. In 13-14 he regressed defensively a lot to previous five-six season, he was neutral to slightly positive in advanced stats, if we take actual impact (obviously, in this virtual team he would have much more energy to play defense) I would select this season to second LeBron's starting five and definitely not to first one's frontcourt.

But that's some choice to make, his MVP season ('10) hasn't been even mentioned

[nzahir]

Lebron has been feeding AD constantly, hard to score a lot when you are being not very aggressive to score

I can see Miami start to double AD way more though, which will let Lebron score

Dumb of Miami to stop doubling AD tbh, they can't guard him, especially with Bam hurt/out

If AD gets doubled though, Lebron will feast

[dcstanley]

Watch on YouTube

I’m still in awe of this run. I gotta say this is probably my favorite playoff run of Lebron’s career. He was such a force offensively, the shot-making is just insane. I really think this was Lebron’s offensive peak.

[Baski]

Also has anyone noticed how much of a hater Coach Nick of BBallBreakdown is? The dude takes every opportunity to try to show and blame LeBron for defensive breakdowns even when it clearly wasn’t his fault. Point out bad calls by the refs that favored the Lakers without ever doing the same for ones that benefited the other team where he looks the other way. In the recent video he showed 1st quarter clips for half the video just because it was close then. And he’s basically suggesting that the only reason Miami lost was the injuries.

Surprised how shamelessly biased he can come off sometimes. The video he made about the game 3 loss to the Nuggets where he went over all the bad defensive plays and missed rebounds by AD and then basically said "the Nuggets didn't score on this so I don't think this possession matters" outed him to me.
Never seen anyone say that the opponent getting an offensive rebound is inconsequential to a game before he did. There was a sequence of like 3 straight Orebs by the Nugs and he still said "I don't think this possession matters". Had me like "and you call yourself a coach"?

[Dupp]

Watch on YouTube

I’m still in awe of this run. I gotta say this is probably my favorite playoff run of Lebron’s career. He was such a force offensively, the shot-making is just insane. I really think this was Lebron’s offensive peak.

I reckon he would have hit that game winner vs warriors in game 1 too if JR passed the ball after he got that rebound. Lebron was open all alone at the three point line.


But yeah amazing run

[LA Bird]

Just as a reminder why I don't frequent the General Board much, this is the most And1ed post on a LeBron thread there right now:

The reason people dislike Lebron is because the shameless way he, the NBA, and the media have colluded in building up his legacy. They have used every dirty, dishonorable trick in the book to do this.

We have been through 10 straight years of lies, distortions, and fake narratives being hoisted upon us by the espn, the nba, and Lebron's media team. In the process they have thoroughly disrespected every great player that has come before him and even after him. From Kobe to Jordan, to Magic, Kareem, Bird, Steph, Kawhi, Durant, Giannis, the entire decade of the 90s have all been trashed over the years in an effort to build up Lebron. Because of this the NBA's prestigious history and legacy has taken a big hit. Younger fans have no knowledge of and respect for the history of the league as a result. For us older fans who care about the integrity if the league and of the sport this has been tough to see.

The irony in complaining about the media hyping up LeBron's legacy when in reality they have tried to tear him down more than any other player in history. Skip Bayless makes 5 mil a year and his whole shtick is trashing LeBron on national TV. Name another player who has such a popular sports commentator dedicated to hating on him 24/7. And this is actually a consistent theme around LeBron where people are simultaneously overcritical with him while claiming he gets favorable treatment. His detractors cry about biased refs gifting LeBron easy FTs but in reality refs don't call a lot of fouls on him because he is too strong. Only 15.5% of LeBron's points were from FTs this season - of the 27 players who averaged 20 or more points, only two had a lower proportion of their points coming from FTs. The league regularly rewards superstars with easy All-Defensive selections but when it comes to LeBron, not only does he not get the same benefit of doubt, he is denied selection when he actually deserves them. The Lakers defense of the two stars together suffered a far larger defensive decline without LeBron (+6.2 DRtg) than they did without Davis (+0.2 DRtg) but Davis gets voted #2 in DPOY while LeBron didn't get enough votes to make either All Defensive teams. But people will still say LeBron is an overrated defender who is trying to steal credit for the Lakers defense from Davis. Double standards are the norm when it comes to LeBron and more often than not, they are actually going against him rather than in his favor.

I also find it funny how this guy talks about earlier legends are being disrespected to build up LeBron. As though Jordan fans weren't already writing Russell and Wilt out of history and all time rankings because they came from a 'weak era'. But but LeBron is disrespecting the prestigious legacy and integrity of the league with his dirty lies and dishonorable tricks.

[Ursusamericanus]

This is actually pretty cool.

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Epic. What an absolute beast. He does get my vote as GOAT following these finals.

[homecourtloss]

Just as a reminder why I don't frequent the General Board much, this is the most And1ed post on a LeBron thread there right now:

The reason people dislike Lebron is because the shameless way he, the NBA, and the media have colluded in building up his legacy. They have used every dirty, dishonorable trick in the book to do this.

We have been through 10 straight years of lies, distortions, and fake narratives being hoisted upon us by the espn, the nba, and Lebron's media team. In the process they have thoroughly disrespected every great player that has come before him and even after him. From Kobe to Jordan, to Magic, Kareem, Bird, Steph, Kawhi, Durant, Giannis, the entire decade of the 90s have all been trashed over the years in an effort to build up Lebron. Because of this the NBA's prestigious history and legacy has taken a big hit. Younger fans have no knowledge of and respect for the history of the league as a result. For us older fans who care about the integrity if the league and of the sport this has been tough to see.

The irony in complaining about the media hyping up LeBron's legacy when in reality they have tried to tear him down more than any other player in history. Skip Bayless makes 5 mil a year and his whole shtick is trashing LeBron on national TV. Name another player who has such a popular sports commentator dedicated to hating on him 24/7. And this is actually a consistent theme around LeBron where people are simultaneously overcritical with him while claiming he gets favorable treatment. His detractors cry about biased refs gifting LeBron easy FTs but in reality refs don't call a lot of fouls on him because he is too strong. Only 15.5% of LeBron's points were from FTs this season - of the 27 players who averaged 20 or more points, only two had a lower proportion of their points coming from FTs. The league regularly rewards superstars with easy All-Defensive selections but when it comes to LeBron, not only does he not get the same benefit of doubt, he is denied selection when he actually deserves them. The Lakers defense of the two stars together suffered a far larger defensive decline without LeBron (+6.2 DRtg) than they did without Davis (+0.2 DRtg) but Davis gets voted #2 in DPOY while LeBron didn't get enough votes to make either All Defensive teams. But people will still say LeBron is an overrated defender who is trying to steal credit for the Lakers defense from Davis. Double standards are the norm when it comes to LeBron and more often than not, they are actually going against him rather than in his favor.

I also find it funny how this guy talks about earlier legends are being disrespected to build up LeBron. As though Jordan fans weren't already writing Russell and Wilt out of history and all time rankings because they came from a 'weak era'. But but LeBron is disrespecting the prestigious legacy and integrity of the league with his dirty lies and dishonorable tricks.

All truth here—all of it. The fact that James didn’t even make any all defensive team in 2016 when he had arguably the greatest defensive season from a primary offense creator first option ever is ridiculous,

[homecourtloss]

Watch on YouTube

I’m still in awe of this run. I gotta say this is probably my favorite playoff run of Lebron’s career. He was such a force offensively, the shot-making is just insane. I really think this was Lebron’s offensive peak.

He’s playing at perhaps 8-10 pounds lighter here than he is right now. Wonder if that’s the weight he’ll play at next year.

[JVL]

Watch on YouTube

I’m still in awe of this run. I gotta say this is probably my favorite playoff run of Lebron’s career. He was such a force offensively, the shot-making is just insane. I really think this was Lebron’s offensive peak.

He was possessed. I've never seen a man on a mission like in that playoff run.

[limbo]

thought?

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Really incredible how someone who supposedly has “no skill“ (fOOtWoRK) and only has physical gifts has adapted to his older game better than the supposedly all skilled Kobe and Jordan.

This is due to LeBron finally learning how to leverage his strength and use his body better.

We have to remember LeBron was a finesse player when he came into the league. It was obvious his style of scoring was inspired by MJ/Kobe, because he was trying all the fancy finesse layups and fallaway mid-range jumpers.

It took a lot of trail and error and general experience for LeBron to realize he's actually 6'8 built like Hercules and that he should probably use that fact more than trying to play like he was MJ.

I remember i used to scream at LeBron, even in some of the Miami years, where he bulked up even more, for not knowing how to use his body and poise to get quality shots at the rim. Which is weird, because he was still converting at Shaq level efficiency, but it was mostly based on straight-line drives, athleticism and high-flying. Once he faced elite rim protection in the Playoffs like the Spurs or even Pacers, he had trouble adjusting when his straight line driving didn't work. He didn't have a counter to go to, it was just force the issue and hope for the best.

Watch how LeBron been finishing around the rim the last 4 seasons. Pure savvy. Just taking his time, working his body into a good position and leveraging his strength/footwork.

You know that spin-cycle layup LeBron abuses now. That wasn't in his bag 5 years ago. He would've just bee line it to the rim and hope he doesn't get a charge or gets blocked. Now with the the spin cycle, he just slowly gets the defender leaning one way, and uses his massive body to shield him off. Easy bucket.

Another very crucial move LeBron picked up in the last couple of years is the 'putting defenders in the cage/prison move'. This is a mastermind move abused by all the offensive geniuses like Harden, Luka, CP3, Curry, even Lowry. LeBron figured out that he didn't have to go 100 miles per hour to the rim every time he got past the first line of defense like he used to even back in Miami. He can simply use a screen, get by, put the defender on his back to slow down his momentum and then force the defense to respond and make a play from there. It kind of slows down the action almost to a freeze, making it easier to make a good read. When you're running 100 miles per hour into the paint and you have the defense at your hip guiding you away you have way less options available.

[70sFan]

People vastly overstate the skill difference in 2012-14 James and 2020 James. Or they vastly underrate Heatles James skillset. It's almost like he was a Russell Westbrook scorer in that era...

2013 and 2014 LeBron was already a complete package. He was a better shooter then (much smoother form, especially from catch and shoot), he already had deadly post game and his usage of body was already there. How can anybody say that he lacked his signature spin move, when he already abused it to death in 2013?

It's fine to prefer more experienced version of James, but acting like the skills gap is huge doesn't make any sense. It reminds me how people always say they prefer 2nd three peat MJ because of more refined skills, as if 1991-93 Jordan wasn't monster in that aspect...

[limbo]

Here goes 70sFan blowing everything out of proportion again...

Outside a more consistent long range shooting stroke, 13/14 LeBron is not more skilled than he is now... That doesn't mean 13/14 was 'Russell Westbrook' in terms of skill or whatever that was suppose to mean...

If you have 13/14 as peak James, that's fine, but it's because of athleticism/motor gap (and more consistent shooting), it's not because he was all-around sharper, more skilled or smarter. He definitely didn't use and leverage his body/strength to the same success as he does now, but again that was offset to a large degree by the fact that he was simply faster, more athletic, jumped higher and had a better motor
... But thise aren't basketball 'skills' or IQ. Those are physical attributes...

No one is acting like the skill gap is huge, but it's definitely noticeable in certain areas and makes logical sense as well. Tell me how do you rationalize that 2013 LeBron would be 'more skilled' than now? What, did he not pick up anything in 7 years of going to the Finals and playing GOAT level teams? Did he got dumber on defense? Did his eyes got worse in 5 years so his vision became worse?

The only skill attribute that you could argue is worse now than it was in 2013 is his shooting, because LeBron is known as a guy that constantly tinkers his form on top of being a very selective/streaky shooter. This enables a larger variance in how well he's able to shoot. And better/more consistent shooting is definitely not a negligible advantage. But as far as reading and reacting he's gotten more skilled in that area because he's simply smarter and has picked up more tools to add in his collection in the last 7 years.

And yes, MJ was the same in a way. Except i think MJ's athletic decline was more instrumental to his impact than LeBron's is. MJ relied on his GOAT level explosiveness far more. He did bulk up during 1996-1998 to give him more bullying power, but he's not a 6'8, 250 pound monster that sleeps in a cryogenic chamber like LeBron. Jordan went to smoke a cigars and gamble before and after he was playing... LeBron actually puts in the time to make sure his body is operating at the best possible level it can.

Jordan was more skilled and stronger in 1996-1998. But the lost of athleticism/explosiveness had a bigger impact on his overall output. That's why the gap between 1991 MJ and 1998 MJ is bigger than the gap between 2013 LeBron and 2020 LeBron.

[Homer38]

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