2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[eminence]

Calls get missed all the time, I get that and it's fine enough. But it really seems like those that sell contact (flop) get a lot more benefit of the doubt on their whistle on the offensive end.

[Peregrine01]

'Marginal contact'

The L2Ms are getting into fully cooked territory if they weren't always.

This photo really highlights the issue at hand. If you try to play honest basketball and finish through contact, you're at a huge disadvantage.

Meanwhile, this gets called almost all the time:

Read on Twitter

All you need to do to get rewarded 2 FTs is to snap your head back and jump backward 10 feet so why don't players do this all the time instead of actually trying to get a bucket?

[Bidofo]

The Knicks just played a month of basketball like the best offense in the league and a -10 defense. 14-2 record with signature wins over almost fully healthy good/great teams in Minny, Philly, Denver, Miami, and Utah. 2 losses by a combined 8 points, one without Brunson. Sitting at a nice 5.57 SRS, good for 5th. Probably the best team the city has seen since the Finals-bound 1994 squad. It's completely surreal how good they finally are.

Leon Rose (and Worldwide Wes) has done a fantastic job forming a competent team with key additions every year. It's not easy building around a team with just Randle, but he filled the gaps perfectly. Just this year alone, he re-signed Hart, picked up DDV (huge revelation), and acquired OG + a surprisingly decent Achiuwa. He should be one of the early leaders for EOY.

OG is just absurd on defense. 100 DRTG when he's on the court for us in 500 minutes, and this is after the Knicks looked completely lost after Robinson went down. You look at a team playing Brunson and Randle heavy minutes and you don't expect an elite defense, but the Knicks have been just that with OG (105 DRTG with all 3, 285 minutes, sample size easy to ignore when you're a fan ). On or off ball, ISO or PnR, he's dominant and seemingly everywhere. He's in a perfect spot to maximize his impact and is probably playing the best defense I've seen out of a wing since peak Kawhi (you can tell I'm excited).

Read on Twitter

Love this tweet. Obviously we've now been hit with the injury bug and there are questions about Randle's playoffs effectiveness, but the only eastern team I'd be really worried about is Boston. The Bucks feel beatable, the Sixers even moreso. If we can reach the 2 seed, watch out

[Peregrine01]

I mean, how can you realistically expect defense to guard this if a call like this is going to be made?

Read on Twitter

[eminence]

of course they are meaningful. They openly admit calls they miss. It's just fans have an expectation that all calls should go their way. But its a level of transparency other leagues don't offer.

And the sooner people stop looking for reasons to complain the less of an issue it is. But now we watch super slow motion replay from 4 different angles and get angry if a ref missed something at full speed in real time with tremendous very large athletes. Newsflash to fans--it doesn't slow down matrix style for the refs as the game is going on....

I'm not upset about refs missing individual calls like that on Ant's drive. It happens.

When they say it was a correct non-call in the L2M? C'mon now. It shows them not admitting missed calls, which defeats the purpose of the L2M. Fake transparency isn't transparency at all.

[Texas Chuck]

of course they are meaningful. They openly admit calls they miss. It's just fans have an expectation that all calls should go their way. But its a level of transparency other leagues don't offer.

And the sooner people stop looking for reasons to complain the less of an issue it is. But now we watch super slow motion replay from 4 different angles and get angry if a ref missed something at full speed in real time with tremendous very large athletes. Newsflash to fans--it doesn't slow down matrix style for the refs as the game is going on....

I'm not upset about refs missing individual calls like that on Ant's drive. It happens.

When they say it was a correct non-call in the L2M? C'mon now. It shows them not admitting missed calls, which defeats the purpose of the L2M. Fake transparency isn't transparency at all.

Yes I see the photo. And they state it was incidental contact. Which btw happens on plays at the rim multiple times in every game without a whistle. Maybe they got it wrong, but they didn't call it IRL and then they reviewed it and still deemed it a no-call. You guys are convinced for whatever reason the league would try and lie about a call, knowing video exists for anyone to see. I don't think they are stupid or think we are all stupid. They just disagree on if that play was a foul. And I defer to them as knowing better than me. Most defer to themselves as knowing more than the experts. IDK...

[Texas Chuck]

And finding videos of one off silly stuff is exactly why I say this is self-feeding. That's one play over a 48 minute game, but now its representative of officiating as a whole not only to that poster, but then to other posters looking for reasons. I could go post hundreds of correctly officiated plays for every one of those.

[AEnigma]

You are literally acting as an example of why it is beneficial for them to mark things like that a correct no-call. If they had called that a foul in another game, suddenly it becomes correct in that game’s L2M. It is not remotely consistent, and if it is not consistent, then it is not offering anything of value.

You want to say refereeing is tough and on balance you are always going to have a few bad calls in a large sample? Fine, sure. But the L2Ms are only proof of the arbitrary nature of these calls, not of how good a job any particular team is doing.

[Peregrine01]

And finding videos of one off silly stuff is exactly why I say this is self-feeding. That's one play over a 48 minute game, but now its representative of officiating as a whole not only to that poster, but then to other posters looking for reasons. I could go post hundreds of correctly officiated plays for every one of those.

Let's be honest. The "run into a defender's body flail and jump backward" has become a standard call. Embiid gets to the line at least 4 times a game with that. And probably another 4 times a game sweeping his arms through guys.

[Texas Chuck]

And finding videos of one off silly stuff is exactly why I say this is self-feeding. That's one play over a 48 minute game, but now its representative of officiating as a whole not only to that poster, but then to other posters looking for reasons. I could go post hundreds of correctly officiated plays for every one of those.

Let's be honest. The "run into a defender's body flail and jump backward" has become a standard call. Embiid gets to the line at least 4 times a game with that. And probably another 4 times a game sweeping his arms through guys.

Then they need to change the rules maybe. I don't personally like that stuff either. But I understand its not a pick up game where that gets laughed off if you try and call foul. It's the NBA with very clearly defined rules. You do realize that if you are aware of this that the league is as well right? It's not like its unknown to them how players get themselves to the line. The league has decided for now this isn't incorrect. Yet it gets blamed on the refs. It's not a ref issue. Clearly.

[Doctor MJ]

The Knicks just played a month of basketball like the best offense in the league and a -10 defense. 14-2 record with signature wins over almost fully healthy good/great teams in Minny, Philly, Denver, Miami, and Utah. 2 losses by a combined 8 points, one without Brunson. Sitting at a nice 5.57 SRS, good for 5th. Probably the best team the city has seen since the Finals-bound 1994 squad. It's completely surreal how good they finally are.

Leon Rose (and Worldwide Wes) has done a fantastic job forming a competent team with key additions every year. It's not easy building around a team with just Randle, but he filled the gaps perfectly. Just this year alone, he re-signed Hart, picked up DDV (huge revelation), and acquired OG + a surprisingly decent Achiuwa. He should be one of the early leaders for EOY.

OG is just absurd on defense. 100 DRTG when he's on the court for us in 500 minutes, and this is after the Knicks looked completely lost after Robinson went down. You look at a team playing Brunson and Randle heavy minutes and you don't expect an elite defense, but the Knicks have been just that with OG (105 DRTG with all 3, 285 minutes, sample size easy to ignore when you're a fan ). On or off ball, ISO or PnR, he's dominant and seemingly everywhere. He's in a perfect spot to maximize his impact and is probably playing the best defense I've seen out of a wing since peak Kawhi (you can tell I'm excited).

Read on Twitter

Love this tweet. Obviously we've now been hit with the injury bug and there are questions about Randle's playoffs effectiveness, but the only eastern team I'd be really worried about is Boston. The Bucks feel beatable, the Sixers even moreso. If we can reach the 2 seed, watch out

I have to say, what the Knicks are doing right now is remarkable. I was starting to think of their run of success as OG's breakout, and then he misses time, and they just keep right on going. It's pretty scary.

Now as I say this, I'm a believer in that they're doing broadly, and a guy like OG is clearly the type to fit in and make the team all the more resilient in the playoffs...

but I still question whether you really want Randle being Randle when this team is firing on all cylinders. The idea of the Knicks being true contenders when their biggest salary is a guy I feel like might need to play bench seems tough.

[eminence]

of course they are meaningful. They openly admit calls they miss. It's just fans have an expectation that all calls should go their way. But its a level of transparency other leagues don't offer.

And the sooner people stop looking for reasons to complain the less of an issue it is. But now we watch super slow motion replay from 4 different angles and get angry if a ref missed something at full speed in real time with tremendous very large athletes. Newsflash to fans--it doesn't slow down matrix style for the refs as the game is going on....

I'm not upset about refs missing individual calls like that on Ant's drive. It happens.

When they say it was a correct non-call in the L2M? C'mon now. It shows them not admitting missed calls, which defeats the purpose of the L2M. Fake transparency isn't transparency at all.

Yes I see the photo. And they state it was incidental contact. Which btw happens on plays at the rim multiple times in every game without a whistle. Maybe they got it wrong, but they didn't call it IRL and then they reviewed it and still deemed it a no-call. You guys are convinced for whatever reason the league would try and lie about a call, knowing video exists for anyone to see. I don't think they are stupid or think we are all stupid. They just disagree on if that play was a foul. And I defer to them as knowing better than me. Most defer to themselves as knowing more than the experts. IDK...

Try another one. Disagreeing on whether that's a foul is not a serious take. It's a foul in anything resembling basketball. Missing the call in game is still fine, the L2M claiming that as incidental contact is not fine.

[Peregrine01]

And finding videos of one off silly stuff is exactly why I say this is self-feeding. That's one play over a 48 minute game, but now its representative of officiating as a whole not only to that poster, but then to other posters looking for reasons. I could go post hundreds of correctly officiated plays for every one of those.

Let's be honest. The "run into a defender's body flail and jump backward" has become a standard call. Embiid gets to the line at least 4 times a game with that. And probably another 4 times a game sweeping his arms through guys.

Then they need to change the rules maybe. I don't personally like that stuff either. But I understand its not a pick up game where that gets laughed off if you try and call foul. It's the NBA with very clearly defined rules. You do realize that if you are aware of this that the league is as well right? It's not like its unknown to them how players get themselves to the line. The league has decided for now this isn't incorrect. Yet it gets blamed on the refs. It's not a ref issue. Clearly.

Agreed on that. In an earlier post I mentioned that it's the officiating that's the primary problem, not the refs. But naturally the immediate animus will be directed toward whoever makes that call. In my view, the NBA has done a great disservice to refs with how they want officiating to be.

[Peregrine01]

The Knicks just played a month of basketball like the best offense in the league and a -10 defense. 14-2 record with signature wins over almost fully healthy good/great teams in Minny, Philly, Denver, Miami, and Utah. 2 losses by a combined 8 points, one without Brunson. Sitting at a nice 5.57 SRS, good for 5th. Probably the best team the city has seen since the Finals-bound 1994 squad. It's completely surreal how good they finally are.

Leon Rose (and Worldwide Wes) has done a fantastic job forming a competent team with key additions every year. It's not easy building around a team with just Randle, but he filled the gaps perfectly. Just this year alone, he re-signed Hart, picked up DDV (huge revelation), and acquired OG + a surprisingly decent Achiuwa. He should be one of the early leaders for EOY.

OG is just absurd on defense. 100 DRTG when he's on the court for us in 500 minutes, and this is after the Knicks looked completely lost after Robinson went down. You look at a team playing Brunson and Randle heavy minutes and you don't expect an elite defense, but the Knicks have been just that with OG (105 DRTG with all 3, 285 minutes, sample size easy to ignore when you're a fan ). On or off ball, ISO or PnR, he's dominant and seemingly everywhere. He's in a perfect spot to maximize his impact and is probably playing the best defense I've seen out of a wing since peak Kawhi (you can tell I'm excited).

Read on Twitter

Love this tweet. Obviously we've now been hit with the injury bug and there are questions about Randle's playoffs effectiveness, but the only eastern team I'd be really worried about is Boston. The Bucks feel beatable, the Sixers even moreso. If we can reach the 2 seed, watch out

I have to say, what the Knicks are doing right now is remarkable. I was starting to think of their run of success as OG's breakout, and then he misses time, and they just keep right on going. It's pretty scary.

Now as I say this, I'm a believer in that they're doing broadly, and a guy like OG is clearly the type to fit in and make the team all the more resilient in the playoffs...

but I still question whether you really want Randle being Randle when this team is firing on all cylinders. The idea of the Knicks being true contenders when their biggest salary is a guy I feel like might need to play bench seems tough.

How their defense remains so resilient despite Robinson or OG missing time shows just how important defensive coaching is. And just like how great defensive players get away with more and are allowed to be more aggressive, I've found that great defensive coaches seem to have the same effect - but this time over the whole team. How the Knicks can muddle up games without getting into much foul trouble is rather unique in this league.

[MartinToVaught]

And finding videos of one off silly stuff is exactly why I say this is self-feeding. That's one play over a 48 minute game, but now its representative of officiating as a whole not only to that poster, but then to other posters looking for reasons. I could go post hundreds of correctly officiated plays for every one of those.

Let's be honest. The "run into a defender's body flail and jump backward" has become a standard call. Embiid gets to the line at least 4 times a game with that. And probably another 4 times a game sweeping his arms through guys.

Then they need to change the rules maybe. I don't personally like that stuff either. But I understand its not a pick up game where that gets laughed off if you try and call foul. It's the NBA with very clearly defined rules. You do realize that if you are aware of this that the league is as well right? It's not like its unknown to them how players get themselves to the line. The league has decided for now this isn't incorrect. Yet it gets blamed on the refs. It's not a ref issue. Clearly.

I'm not sure it's entirely a league issue. I mean, yeah, they deserve some of the blame for only wanting scoring and not defense. But in years past, they've tried to crack down on some of this flopping BS with points of emphasis, and what always happens is that the refs take it seriously for the first month or two and then revert back to rewarding the same old flops. The refs are not devoid of agency. They still deserve some of the blame themselves.

[Fadeaway_J]

Is it OK to suggest that maybe Embiid was actually injured?

[sp6r=underrated]

Calls get missed all the time, I get that and it's fine enough. But it really seems like those that sell contact (flop) get a lot more benefit of the doubt on their whistle on the offensive end.

Offensive players do get more of a benefit of the doubt. It isn't bad officiating. The refs are calling the game the way they are instructed.

The NBA wants rules interpreted in favor of offense. Blame management and the fans who prefer watching offense to whatever degree offensive flopping annoys you/

[sp6r=underrated]

And finding videos of one off silly stuff is exactly why I say this is self-feeding. That's one play over a 48 minute game, but now its representative of officiating as a whole not only to that poster, but then to other posters looking for reasons. I could go post hundreds of correctly officiated plays for every one of those.

Let's be honest. The "run into a defender's body flail and jump backward" has become a standard call. Embiid gets to the line at least 4 times a game with that. And probably another 4 times a game sweeping his arms through guys.

Then they need to change the rules maybe. I don't personally like that stuff either. But I understand its not a pick up game where that gets laughed off if you try and call foul. It's the NBA with very clearly defined rules. You do realize that if you are aware of this that the league is as well right? It's not like its unknown to them how players get themselves to the line. The league has decided for now this isn't incorrect. Yet it gets blamed on the refs. It's not a ref issue. Clearly.

Exactly. If you dislike the fact offensive players can get free throws when they initiate the contact you need to blame your fellow.

NBA fans have made very clear they prefer the face-up game, with a heavy emphasis on offense built around pick and roll given that it leads to 3s and dunks. That is the style of basketball NBA fans want. So the owners tailored the rulebook to maximize its effectiveness relative to other styles. And they instruct the refs to call it the way the refs call it.

If you dislike it the blame doesn't lie with refs.

[eminence]

Calls get missed all the time, I get that and it's fine enough. But it really seems like those that sell contact (flop) get a lot more benefit of the doubt on their whistle on the offensive end.

Offensive players do get more of a benefit of the doubt. It isn't bad officiating. The refs are calling the game the way they are instructed.

The NBA wants rules interpreted in favor of offense. Blame management and the fans who prefer watching offense to whatever degree offensive flopping annoys you/

I, and everyone I've ever spoken with, are talking about league directives/rules (aka management) when talking about reffing generally.

[Texas Chuck]

You (and everyone you have spoken with somehow) are definitely the exception though. And I know you understand that because you see the same things we see.

And once again the different angle shows the same thing as the first one. And hand on the arm. And the league decided in real time and after review its not a foul.

I'm not trying to argue if it should be a foul or not. My disagreement with you is that I don't believe the league is trying to lie about it to what protect the ref? Because they have zero credibility if they regularly lie to us. So I am going to take the more logical explanation that they honestly didn't believe that to be a foul.

Because they aren't stupid and they aren't going to treat their fans and their media as stupid. It's self-defeating. But I also realize I am spitting into the wind. This is the current conversation among too many NBA fans. Instead of focusing on everything that is right they find something to pick at. Which could be fine I guess, except it only ruins their own enjoyment of the product.

By accepting the human nature of the endeavor and understanding what the league is after, I'm able to not get so hung up on officiating and can enjoy all the brilliant talent we have in the league.