The Stephen Curry Thread (2015-16 Pt. 1)

[rich316]

We will see, Curry will always be in the GOAT peak convo for being the MVP of a 71+ win team. At this point his raw stats don't stand head-and-shoulders above the crowd, and his defensive contribution will always be lower than any of the other candidates. The playoffs will tell where he ends up.

[AceofSpades69]

No not GOAT scoring season if he doesn't average over 30 ppg. Would need to be closer to 33 ppg.

If un-adjusted PPG is all that matters for GOAT scoring season, than I guess Wilt is the GOAT scorer, and 06 Kobe is a better scorer than 91-93 Jordan.

That's completely distorting what he said but whatever.
GOAT scoring season = ATG volume + ATG efficiency. <30 ppg is not ATG volume.

[Asianiac_24]

That's completely distorting what he said but whatever.
GOAT scoring season = ATG volume + ATG efficiency. <30 ppg is not ATG volume.

Curry only plays 34 minutes a game. Per 36, he is scoring 31.5 PPG. Jordan only scored more than that PER36 in 1987, and he took 28 shots a game to do it. Curry is taking 20 shots a game. Volume wise, Curry is ATG level.

[AceofSpades69]

That's completely distorting what he said but whatever.
GOAT scoring season = ATG volume + ATG efficiency. <30 ppg is not ATG volume.

Curry only plays 34 minutes a game. Per 36, he is scoring 31.5 PPG. Jordan only scored more than that PER36 in 1987, and he took 28 shots a game to do it. Curry is taking 20 shots a game. Volume wise, Curry is ATG level.

Using PER36 data to justify ATG volume is laughable from any kind of perspective. PER36 is useful when comparing two players above 36 mpg and that's it. But if you're bringing it up just to go and give Curry numbers for minutes he hasn't played in, do me a favor and don't bring that biased bs argument to a GOAT discussion.

[MisterHibachi]

That's completely distorting what he said but whatever.
GOAT scoring season = ATG volume + ATG efficiency. <30 ppg is not ATG volume.

Curry only plays 34 minutes a game. Per 36, he is scoring 31.5 PPG. Jordan only scored more than that PER36 in 1987, and he took 28 shots a game to do it. Curry is taking 20 shots a game. Volume wise, Curry is ATG level.

Per 100, Curry is scoring 42.2. Jordan has 7 seasons above that number, 6 excluding 86.

[magicman1978]

That's completely distorting what he said but whatever.
GOAT scoring season = ATG volume + ATG efficiency. <30 ppg is not ATG volume.

Curry only plays 34 minutes a game. Per 36, he is scoring 31.5 PPG. Jordan only scored more than that PER36 in 1987, and he took 28 shots a game to do it. Curry is taking 20 shots a game. Volume wise, Curry is ATG level.

Why use per 36 and then talk about total shots? A bit misleading don't you think?

[BasketballFan7]

That's completely distorting what he said but whatever.
GOAT scoring season = ATG volume + ATG efficiency. <30 ppg is not ATG volume.

Curry only plays 34 minutes a game. Per 36, he is scoring 31.5 PPG. Jordan only scored more than that PER36 in 1987, and he took 28 shots a game to do it. Curry is taking 20 shots a game. Volume wise, Curry is ATG level.

You can't just use per 36 like that. Minutes matter. Beasley is 26/10 per 36, Kanter is 22/14. Reggie Evans is the second best rebounder of all time. Some extremely examples obviously, but the same applies to Curry in essence.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Oh god, he averages 30 points instead of 33

Makes up for the 5-6-7% TS%

[MyUniBroDavis]

That's completely distorting what he said but whatever.
GOAT scoring season = ATG volume + ATG efficiency. <30 ppg is not ATG volume.

Curry only plays 34 minutes a game. Per 36, he is scoring 31.5 PPG. Jordan only scored more than that PER36 in 1987, and he took 28 shots a game to do it. Curry is taking 20 shots a game. Volume wise, Curry is ATG level.

Using PER36 data to justify ATG volume is laughable from any kind of perspective. PER36 is useful when comparing two players above 36 mpg and that's it. But if you're bringing it up just to go and give Curry numbers for minutes he hasn't played in, do me a favor and don't bring that biased bs argument to a GOAT discussion.

So curry wasn't a top 5 scorer last year.

Got it.

[Asianiac_24]

Using PER36 data to justify ATG volume is laughable from any kind of perspective. PER36 is useful when comparing two players above 36 mpg and that's it. But if you're bringing it up just to go and give Curry numbers for minutes he hasn't played in, do me a favor and don't bring that biased bs argument to a GOAT discussion.

I fail to see a reason why Curry should be punished for sitting out 4th quarters because his teaming is blowing out the other team. His production on the court, volume scoring wise, is clearly ATG level. Using PER36 data is clearly better than pointing out Curry's raw PPG as some kind of an indicator that he isn't scoring better than Jordan.

Per 100, Curry is scoring 42.2. Jordan has 7 seasons above that number, 6 excluding 86.

Jordan also shoots way more shots and played in a faster paced 80s era, where most of his huge volume scoring season occurred.

Why use per 36 and then talk about total shots? A bit misleading don't you think?

The point I wanted to get across is that saying Curry is not having the GOAT scoring season because he doesn't have the raw volume is extremely flawed. He shoots way less than MJ, while being way more efficient. Not to mention, again, that per minute wise, his volume is on par with Jordan's very best.

You can't just use per 36 like that. Minutes matter. Beasley is 26/10 per 36, Kanter is 22/14. Reggie Evans is the second best rebounder of all time. Some extremely examples obviously, but the same applies to Curry in essence.

I do realize that minutes matter. However, the players mentioned weren't playing big minutes for obvious flaws. Beasley because he is not efficient, Kanter because of his defense, and Evans because of basically everything else BUT rebounding.

Curry is not playing heavy minutes because 1. Trends of the new NBA / sports science and 2. his team is blowing out the opponent. Those are factors Curry cannot control.

[RSCD3_]

+996 right now, almost assured to pass 96 jordan and its quite possible to get 1k

[magicman1978]

GS is playing at a page of 99.5. Bulls - 88 (95.5), 89 (97.0), 90 (96.7), 91 (95.6) - looks like Curry has the pace advantage.

Also, are you saying you were being intentionally misleading using total shots? Or do you not realize that the per 36 total shots were 25 for Jordan in the season you were referencing vs 21.2 for Steph this year. If we look at per 100 possessions, which would give us a more accurate comparison:

88 Jordan - 43.6pts, 30.3 shots
89 Jordan - 40.0 pts, 27.3 shots
90 Jordan - 42.7pts, 30.5 shots
91 Jordan - 42.7pts, 30.4 shots
16 Steph - 42.2pts, 28.4 shots

Steph still has the advantage, but the discrepancy is not what you were trying to make it out to be. Also, one thing people don't take into account is turnovers. If you're talking about efficiency, turnovers definitely is a factor.

However, taking that all into account - Steph is having a better year scoring wise than Jordan ever had.

[yoyoboy]

Curry now at:

29.8 / 5.5 / 6.7 on 66.5 % TS

Still the offensive RS GOAT peak for me, but not sure about overall anymore. Definitely still in the convo though. Have to think more on this.

Question:

Is it still the GOAT scoring season now, or does MJ 88 or Durant 14 have a case in your opinion?

I don't really see how current Curry is having a better regular season than 09 LeBron for example. LeBron posted a higher PER, BPM, WS/48, and only a marginally worse ORTG (124 vs 122, though that gap might be even smaller after tonight). Furthermore, he was undoubtedly a much more impactful defender than Curry, since the aforementioned metrics don't emphasize defensive contributions as much. I'm pretty sure LeBrob's superior in basically every rendition of RAPM, as well. And he led his team to what will be about 6 less wins than this Warriors team will get, despite Curry having at least 3 players (Draymond, Klay, Iggy) around him better than the next best player LeBron had on his team. Curry's team is also much better coached than LeBron had with Mike Brown if that means anything. Finally, James played about 350 more minutes than Curry will end up playing. Seeing how Curry has worn down as the season has progressed, negatively affecting his numbers, you have to give LeBron credit for that kind of endurance and the ability to sustain his superior numbers over a larger sample size/minutes load.

I think too often when a really good team rolls around people will use backwards logic and try to formulate an argument why Player A, the best player on Team A, has to be the better than Player B, the best player on Team B, based off of Team A being better than Team B. It only seems just... Basically what I'm trying to say is that I've noticed a tendency here of wanting to "reward" the player on the better team, and sometimes it goes overboard. For instance, guys like Kevin Love will never be given due credit for his 2014 season because the Wolves only won 40 games. People choose to ignore his supporting cast and the bad late game luck that went the team's way. The logic is the Wolves weren't a playoff team, so there's no way Kevin could have had the kind of impact his stats suggested. Yet, if you threw a guy like Durant on that team, and the Wolves won 60+ games while Love had the exact same season as far as production and impact, he would've been seen in a much better light and no one would've questioned how good he was.

Now this is all coming from someone who still has Curry's 2016 season as one of the top 10 regular seasons of all time. Hell, maybe top 5. I just want to see people make fair comparisons instead of automatically placing Curry's season as the GOAT season simply because he might lead the Warriors to 73 wins. I'm not saying people don't give evidence to support their arguments either; I just think there's a bias created where people will go into the comparison with the goal of finding numbers and logical reasons why the guy on the better team - in this case, Curry - has to be the better player/have had the better season, rather than keeping an open mind and considering the support for both sides.

[pelican piranha]

I can think of multiple seasons that have been more impressive than this season from Curry.

[tsherkin]

I can think of multiple seasons that have been more impressive than this season from Curry.

Great; which ones, so we can discuss them.

[lorak]

I can think of multiple seasons that have been more impressive than this season from Curry.

"The Wire" seasons 1, 3, 4 and 5, right?

[Nbafanatic]

I can think of multiple seasons that have been more impressive than this season from Curry.

"The Wire" seasons 1, 3, 4 and 5, right?

"Breaking Bad" seasons 3 through 5 and this current "Better Call Saul" season are good choices too.

[Dipper 13]

Great; which ones, so we can discuss them.

How about 1968 West? The major issue is he only played 51 games. However according to the pace "estimates", the Lakers offense was +8.1 in those 51 games.

[AceofSpades69]

Curry only plays 34 minutes a game. Per 36, he is scoring 31.5 PPG. Jordan only scored more than that PER36 in 1987, and he took 28 shots a game to do it. Curry is taking 20 shots a game. Volume wise, Curry is ATG level.

Using PER36 data to justify ATG volume is laughable from any kind of perspective. PER36 is useful when comparing two players above 36 mpg and that's it. But if you're bringing it up just to go and give Curry numbers for minutes he hasn't played in, do me a favor and don't bring that biased bs argument to a GOAT discussion.

So curry wasn't a top 5 scorer last year.

Got it.

Didn't get it.

[therealbig3]

Well, you can't really compare RAPM across seasons, so I'm curious to see if someone can come up with a way to do that. But from what I understand, Curry and Green are 1 and 2, and I think you can make a good case that Green's is artificially inflated because of Curry. Almost like Green is "stealing" Curry's RAPM, because their numbers are pretty identical last I checked, even with regards to the offensive vs defensive split, which doesn't seem right to me...everyone knows Green is primarily a defensive player, so to see his offensive RAPM dominate his overall output, in a split that looks identical to Curry's, is a little weird.

Regardless, last I checked, Curry still beats everyone else, including Kawhi, Durant, Westbrook, and LeBron. And in terms of on/off and raw +/-, Curry trumps 09 LeBron pretty clearly.

I also do think there's something to be said for Curry being the spearhead of one of the greatest offenses of all time, and LeBron never really coming close to doing that. I know we can point to his supporting cast in Cleveland and say that he never had the talent, but at the same time, we've undoubtedly seen him have some issues with regards to fit when he did have more talented supporting casts. I think you can make a really strong argument that what he had in Cleveland IS what his ideal supporting cast looks like: nobody to really demand too many touches on offense (including the PG and SG), catch and shoot players, PnR big men, and on the other side of the ball, defenders and rebounders. Looking back, I'm starting to feel that his 09 supporting cast is underrated with regards to the fit. Everyone talks about how Curry's current team fits him PERFECTLY, but you could say the same about LeBron's 09 Cavs team. And I also think maybe the Warriors fit Curry perfectly because of how versatile his offensive game is. He's the most portable superstar ever imo, because he can kill you with or without the ball, and he's developed into a really good passer from what I've seen.

Also, even if you think I'm underrating what Green brings to the table, I think you can also point out that Green's role and his opportunity to shine through as a star is basically created by Curry. Curry draws some pretty unprecedented gravity on offense, which basically allows Green to play 4 on 3 on every PnR, which allows Green's ball handling and decision-making to shine through, but without Curry, Green would never get that opportunity. And I don't find elite decision-making in a 4 on 3 situation to be comparable to a defense sending two guys at a 3pt shooter in the first place, because they're more scared of that than conceding the 4 on 3 opportunity.

So I actually think Curry's presence does a lot more for a team, at least on offense, that opens things up for everyone else more than LeBron's impact, which allows the Warriors to do what they do, even if the box score doesn't show it. And I'm not sure that the +/- DOESN'T show it. And I think the defensive advantages of LeBron over Curry tends to get overstated. And I also think LeBron was quite obviously a superior defender during his Miami career anyway, relative to his 09 self. In fact, I'm surprised that 2009 always gets mentioned as his peak, when imo, it's easily 2013. Maybe because the box score looks nicer in 2009? I'm not sure. In fact, I also think he was better in 2010 than he was in 2009.

But yeah, anyway, I couldn't understand why people DIDN'T think Curry was at a GOAT pace before, because he absolutely was. But he did cool off, and although I don't think the +/- disagrees with what I'm saying, I can also see how it can be interpreted differently than the way I see it.

I have no problem with people taking other seasons over Curry's current season (and again, we still have to see how he does in the playoffs). But I don't think Curry's should be dismissed either, I still believe it has a case.