2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[GSP]

Never seen a coach so consistently scheme and exploit an eras top contender like Spo has the Giannis Bucks. He owns them. Used to be before Giannis couldnt score on Bam but hes figured that matchup out. Its still not an easy one for him but he gets his. Miamis shooting and movement consistently stifle them regardless of their personnel or coach and defensively he has the keys. 2-1 in playoffs and hes won many games in Rs even w/o Jimmy playing

I dont care how bad Miamis record ends up they were 25th ranked offense last season lol...........Bucks do NOT want that matchup again 1st round

[Dr Positivity]

Wemby against the Raptors was absolutely ridiculous That he also has the passing skills (4 ast/36 already this year) makes it unfair

[penbeast0]

Damn, Deni Avdija got his looks with Kuzma sick and went for 43/15. Zion was getting open dunks all night on the other end though so still a loss but Deni looked good.

[rk2023]

Damn, Deni Avdija got his looks with Kuzma sick and went for 43/15. Zion was getting open dunks all night on the other end though so still a loss but Deni looked good.

Deni and Bilal are the guys most worth keeping as the Wiz project into a rebuild for the next few years to come.

[GSP]

Damn, Deni Avdija got his looks with Kuzma sick and went for 43/15. Zion was getting open dunks all night on the other end though so still a loss but Deni looked good.

Deni and Bilal are the guys most worth keeping as the Wiz project into a rebuild for the next few years to come.

Kispert and Tyus are good too Imo

Tyus is older but hes not ancient. Every young team needs that solid vet. Hes like a Mike Conley type of guard not as good whos still a starter on a playoff team himself.

[GSP]

Mikal is not him............I thought hed be a star Brooklyn but hes already 27 and never came close to being selected for Allstar. He will never be.......He is a 3rd or 4th option at best on offense on any real team with aspirations. Cam Thomas gives defenses more fear than Mikal. I havent watched alot of Nets game but it feels Mikals defense has fallen off a cliff too

[Lou Fan]

I'm listening to one of my friends make the same tired dumb takes about European players and European basketball and it made me wonder when did Euroleague become stronger than college ball? Surely at some point in the past college ball was stronger but around what time do you guys think that changed?

[penbeast0]

Stronger as an NBA feeder league or stronger if they played directly against each other?

[Owly]

I'm listening to one of my friends make the same tired dumb takes about European players and European basketball and it made me wonder when did Euroleague become stronger than college ball? Surely at some point in the past college ball was stronger but around what time do you guys think that changed?

Well firstly you need to define the question more tightly ... what historically do you mean by Euroleague (before the breakaway) and how deep does "College ball" go?

After that there are multiple things going on. Fewer players staying 4 years and fewer players staying somewhat close to 4 years (idk, but my gut says cutting out preps to pros made 1 year feel the default more than it had been ... I know a lot of guys were making the leap at the end ... maybe it was always going to be that way.

Europe is definitely getting better and a chunk of the elite guys now are European. The flip side is that more Europeans are probably aiming for (and making) the the NBA.

But even going back a bit we're talking about pros versus amateurs (with limitations on practice time). Adults versus young adults (some [literary] use of this term has extended to what I'd call children ... we know the general ages I mean). Not that some US college guys couldn't and don't get jobs playing ball elsewhere, they have and do. And while there's protectionism and work-permits and such-forth it's the next best guys that are getting these jobs at elite European teams. So you're getting better versions of the second tier of players on Euroleague teams.

I don't know the talent levels of average players but even in the 80s guys like Joe Barry Carroll, Antoine Carr, Brain Shaw, Danny Ferry were getting poached from the NBA by Italian teams. Real Madrid had George Karl coaching in the late 80s and early 90s (now as coaching goes ... yeah the USA college game had some muscle). There was some level of investment in the pro game. I don't think young Ruland was dominant in Spain. There are some factors that will favor professional leagues.

As I say it depends how deep you're going so the framing matters a great deal (the median D1 school involves counting down longer than the median Euroleague team and adding D2 and D3 would only compound the matter) too.

[sp6r=underrated]

Bucks are now 3-7, -20 since Doc took over.

[Special_Puppy]

Bucks are now 3-7, -20 since Doc took over.

Bucks net rating for the season with garbage time removed: 3.1
By contrast, the Celitcs have a net rating of *10.9* with garbage time removed
https://www.pbpstats.com/team-leverage-summary/nba?Season=2023-24&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

Its a shame because Giannis is having such an amazing season

[sp6r=underrated]

Bucks are now 3-7, -20 since Doc took over.

Bucks net rating for the season with garbage time removed: 3.1
By contrast, the Celitcs have a net rating of *10.9* with garbage time removed
https://www.pbpstats.com/team-leverage-summary/nba?Season=2023-24&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

Its a shame because Giannis is having such an amazing season

Celtics are playing like an ATG club so no shame in not measuring upto them. But still extremely disappointing.

[tsherkin]

Wemby against the Raptors was absolutely ridiculous That he also has the passing skills (4 ast/36 already this year) makes it unfair

Swing forward type skill set and approach, for sure. Flashing it, anyhow. Good vision, good timing, good variety of technical passing approaches. That's going to be a major asset to him. If/when he figures out how to shoot past 10 feet, he's going to become a very significant challenge on offense.

[SportsGuru08]

I didn't think Rivers would work out in Milwaukee, but damn.

[Special_Puppy]

Just saw a video where they said that the Spurs should be trying to build a playoff contender around Victor *this summer* lol. Spurs should just try to organically draft and develop players for the next 6-7 years and then go all in around 2030.

Watch on YouTube

;t=160s

[eminence]

I’m not saying they should rush, but waiting 6-7 years is goofy.

If you think Wemby will be ready as an All-NBA type guy next season, then make moves with that in mind.

[Special_Puppy]

I’m not saying they should rush, but waiting 6-7 years is goofy.

If you think Wemby will be ready as an All-NBA type guy next season, then make moves with that in mind.

Bulls first won a championship 7 years after Jordan was drafted. Warriors first won a championship 6 years after Curry was drafted. It really will probably take ~6 years for the Spurs to build a championship team that can seriously compete for several years.

[Doctor MJ]

I’m not saying they should rush, but waiting 6-7 years is goofy.

If you think Wemby will be ready as an All-NBA type guy next season, then make moves with that in mind.

Bulls first won a championship 7 years after Jordan was drafted. Warriors first won a championship 6 years after Curry was drafted. It really will probably take ~6 years for the Spurs to build a championship team that can seriously compete for several years.

Big things for me:

1. In the modern NBA, relying on building a core for 6-7 years before being a serious contender is a lot trickier than it was in the past. Now, maybe Wemby will be game for this an exception to the rule, but teams nowadays cannot expect a superstar to just wait around for a half decade plus before going all in. Players can and do force their way out of a franchise they see as going nowhere.

2. In the case of Curry we're honestly talking about wasted time on the front end. The first two years were wasted because of Monta Ellis' presence, the 3rd year was wasted because of Curry having injury issues, and the 4th & 5th years were wasted with a bad coach. There's absolutely no reason to think that you had to wait until Curry's 6th year to expect to be a contender.

Now, I'm with you that the Spurs shouldn't rush things. I think they should be patient, see what really seems to work with Wemby, and give up assets to improve only when they see a specific need already informed by what Wemby needs.

But nor would I advocate for an approach that welcomes tanking. This season is now already a tank so hopefully the Spurs will get something good from the draft to help next year, but the Spurs should be looking to be the best team they can next year with the talent they have.

And that might seem like a "Well duh" thing, but to be honest the way the Spurs began the year seemed like something that encourages bad habits. Trying an outside of the box thing is not something I want to knock Pop for, but making sure you using the most professional facilitator you have alongside your franchise big man just seems like the obvious thing to do, and that's not what Pop was doing early on. Seemed like instead he was hoping to identify a second franchise player to go along with Wemby, and while that would be an awesome thing to realize you already had, I think the priority should have been fit with Wemby from day one.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

2. In the case of Curry we're honestly talking about wasted time on the front end. The first two years were wasted because of Monta Ellis' presence, the 3rd year was wasted because of Curry having injury issues, and the 4th & 5th years were wasted with a bad coach. There's absolutely no reason to think that you had to wait until Curry's 6th year to expect to be a contender.

It's besides the point you were making, but I think that assessment of the 12-13 and 13-14 seasons is a bit harsh. The 2014 Warriors were a 5.15 SRS/+5.0 Net Rtg team that lost in the first round because they were up against and even better Lob City Clippers team. The 2013 team's metrics were lower but still above water, and in the second round they managed to take two games off the 2013 Spurs(one in the Spurs' building), which is nothing to sneeze at. I know Mark Jackson isn't very popular as a coach, but I don't think you can call those seasons wasted.

[Doctor MJ]

2. In the case of Curry we're honestly talking about wasted time on the front end. The first two years were wasted because of Monta Ellis' presence, the 3rd year was wasted because of Curry having injury issues, and the 4th & 5th years were wasted with a bad coach. There's absolutely no reason to think that you had to wait until Curry's 6th year to expect to be a contender.

It's besides the point you were making, but I think that assessment of the 12-13 and 13-14 seasons is a bit harsh. The 2014 Warriors were a 5.15 SRS/+5.0 Net Rtg team that lost in the first round because they were up against and even better Lob City Clippers team. The 2013 team's metrics were lower but still above water, and in the second round they managed to take two games off the 2013 Spurs(one in the Spurs' building), which is nothing to sneeze at. I know Mark Jackson isn't very popular as a coach, but I don't think you can call those seasons wasted.

Good points. Honestly, it's probably more reasonable to actually call those contending seasons given that they were a serious playoff threat.