2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[Peregrine01]

Harden is certainly better than Durant now but I'm not sure if the mainstream media/general populace will widely acknowledge it yet. Durant still has a lot of clout in his name.

It's kind of crazy how media narratives can be completely off from what we see with our plain eyes.

[Peregrine01]

KD's defense has gotten concerning. He was never a guy blowing up plays off-ball but now he's pretty much nonexistent as a rim protector and has been getting bodied inside. Against guards, it's not looking like he can stay with a lot of guys off the dribble. I just can't see this Nets defense getting meaningfully better to prevent getting killed in the paint in the playoffs. They're just gonna have to rely on outscoring everyone.

I feel a narrative blowing up where Harden becomes seen as the true alpha which leads to another wave of mockery toward KD that hasn't responded well to any time it's happened.

Surprised it hasn't happened yet. The Nets are a below .500 team without Harden so far and it's clear he's their most important player. I do see very similar parallels with the KD Warriors.

[MartinToVaught]

KD's defense has gotten concerning. He was never a guy blowing up plays off-ball but now he's pretty much nonexistent as a rim protector and has been getting bodied inside. Against guards, it's not looking like he can stay with a lot of guys off the dribble. I just can't see this Nets defense getting meaningfully better to prevent getting killed in the paint in the playoffs. They're just gonna have to rely on outscoring everyone.

I feel a narrative blowing up where Harden becomes seen as the true alpha which leads to another wave of mockery toward KD that hasn't responded well to any time it's happened.

Luckily for KD, Harden tends to choke in the playoffs once the refs stop giving him all the calls, so he'll only have to deal with that narrative during regular seasons. It was a lot worse for Durant's legacy when Steph was carrying him in the playoffs.

[Colbinii]

KD's defense has gotten concerning. He was never a guy blowing up plays off-ball but now he's pretty much nonexistent as a rim protector and has been getting bodied inside. Against guards, it's not looking like he can stay with a lot of guys off the dribble. I just can't see this Nets defense getting meaningfully better to prevent getting killed in the paint in the playoffs. They're just gonna have to rely on outscoring everyone.

I feel a narrative blowing up where Harden becomes seen as the true alpha which leads to another wave of mockery toward KD that hasn't responded well to any time it's happened.

Luckily for KD, Harden tends to choke in the playoffs once the refs stop giving him all the calls, so he'll only have to deal with that narrative during regular seasons. It was a lot worse for Durant's legacy when Steph was carrying him in the playoffs.

Steph never really carried Durant in the post-season. Kevin Durant didn't get backlash for his play from 2017-2019...

[Colbinii]

KD's defense has gotten concerning. He was never a guy blowing up plays off-ball but now he's pretty much nonexistent as a rim protector and has been getting bodied inside. Against guards, it's not looking like he can stay with a lot of guys off the dribble. I just can't see this Nets defense getting meaningfully better to prevent getting killed in the paint in the playoffs. They're just gonna have to rely on outscoring everyone.

I feel a narrative blowing up where Harden becomes seen as the true alpha which leads to another wave of mockery toward KD that hasn't responded well to any time it's happened.

Surprised it hasn't happened yet. The Nets are a below .500 team without Harden so far and it's clear he's their most important player. I do see very similar parallels with the KD Warriors.

Don't we already know this? Durant has been in the league for 14 seasons and he has never been the type of guy to truly make his teammates "better". He is an all-time great scorer and solid playmaker but his game is about scoring at a high efficiency and doing his thing while everyone else does there thing. It is why Westbrook was the catalyst of the Thunder and why Durant could never truly integrate into the Warriors system.

You cant build a system with Durant the way you can Magic, Bird, LeBron or Kobe and expect Durant to be the nucleus of that system.

[MartinToVaught]

I feel a narrative blowing up where Harden becomes seen as the true alpha which leads to another wave of mockery toward KD that hasn't responded well to any time it's happened.

Luckily for KD, Harden tends to choke in the playoffs once the refs stop giving him all the calls, so he'll only have to deal with that narrative during regular seasons. It was a lot worse for Durant's legacy when Steph was carrying him in the playoffs.

Steph never really carried Durant in the post-season. Kevin Durant didn't get backlash for his play from 2017-2019...

How soon we forget the hilariously easy shots Durant was always getting against single coverage because of Curry's gravity. Remember the Rockets series that went all the way to Game 7 in large part because Durant was trying to be the hero and playing selfish isoball (including two 0-assist games and a 1-assist game, which shouldn't even be possible on a team with Curry and Klay)?

KD's only impressive playoff run with the Warriors was his last one, and even then, he got injured and missed a bunch of games and it didn't result in a ring.

[Colbinii]

Luckily for KD, Harden tends to choke in the playoffs once the refs stop giving him all the calls, so he'll only have to deal with that narrative during regular seasons. It was a lot worse for Durant's legacy when Steph was carrying him in the playoffs.

Steph never really carried Durant in the post-season. Kevin Durant didn't get backlash for his play from 2017-2019...

How soon we forget the hilariously easy shots Durant was always getting against single coverage because of Curry's gravity. Remember the Rockets series that went all the way to Game 7 in large part because Durant was trying to be the hero and playing selfish isoball (including two 0-assist games and a 1-assist game, which shouldn't even be possible on a team with Curry and Klay)?

KD's only impressive playoff run with the Warriors was his last one, and even then, he got injured and missed a bunch of games and it didn't result in a ring.

I think the term carried is a bit extreme when categorizing Durants level of play in 2017 and 2018.

I'm not forgetting anything, you're simply being too harsh on Durant. Durant is like Kawhi in that he is never going to be the "system" but if you put a great system around the player (Spurs, Toronto and now Clippers for Kawhi) then the player(s) can excel and will continue doing their thing.

[Peregrine01]

I feel a narrative blowing up where Harden becomes seen as the true alpha which leads to another wave of mockery toward KD that hasn't responded well to any time it's happened.

Surprised it hasn't happened yet. The Nets are a below .500 team without Harden so far and it's clear he's their most important player. I do see very similar parallels with the KD Warriors.

Don't we already know this? Durant has been in the league for 14 seasons and he has never been the type of guy to truly make his teammates "better". He is an all-time great scorer and solid playmaker but his game is about scoring at a high efficiency and doing his thing while everyone else does there thing. It is why Westbrook was the catalyst of the Thunder and why Durant could never truly integrate into the Warriors system.

You cant build a system with Durant the way you can Magic, Bird, LeBron or Kobe and expect Durant to be the nucleus of that system.

Good descriptor of KD. I think most here are pretty clear on his value as a player, which has only become more crystallized over time. The mainstream narrative about him being Lebron’s sole peer is rather off the mark. KD is a guy who needs to play off others to maximize his value - he’s not the centerpiece on a great offense.

[Colbinii]

Surprised it hasn't happened yet. The Nets are a below .500 team without Harden so far and it's clear he's their most important player. I do see very similar parallels with the KD Warriors.

Don't we already know this? Durant has been in the league for 14 seasons and he has never been the type of guy to truly make his teammates "better". He is an all-time great scorer and solid playmaker but his game is about scoring at a high efficiency and doing his thing while everyone else does there thing. It is why Westbrook was the catalyst of the Thunder and why Durant could never truly integrate into the Warriors system.

You cant build a system with Durant the way you can Magic, Bird, LeBron or Kobe and expect Durant to be the nucleus of that system.

Good descriptor of KD. I think most here are pretty clear on his value as a player, which has only become more crystallized over time. The mainstream narrative about him being Lebron’s sole peer is rather off the mark. KD is a guy who needs to play off others to maximize his value - he’s not the centerpiece on a great offense.

Where do you think Kobe and Jordan fall? Closer to LeBron or KD in that regard?

[Dr Positivity]

I've never been a fan of regular season Durant compared to other top 20 all time caliber stars. Good in playoffs though.

[falcolombardi]

to put it in very crude terms, someone like durant has a great impact by taking a quarter or so of a team possesions and using them at usually reliably strong efficiency and resiliency against defense

that is great, but other than spacing (which is valuablw dont get me wrong) he wont do much for the efficiency of the other team possesions. (this is where a so-so efficiency guy like prime westbrook who generated great shots for role players shined)

but players like harden, curry, lebron and now doncic can score in elite efficiency on their own, then playmake or create good shots for everyone else too. they can do BOTH which is why these kind of offensive engines are so invaluable and have more impact offensively than specialized scorers imo

[Peregrine01]

Don't we already know this? Durant has been in the league for 14 seasons and he has never been the type of guy to truly make his teammates "better". He is an all-time great scorer and solid playmaker but his game is about scoring at a high efficiency and doing his thing while everyone else does there thing. It is why Westbrook was the catalyst of the Thunder and why Durant could never truly integrate into the Warriors system.

You cant build a system with Durant the way you can Magic, Bird, LeBron or Kobe and expect Durant to be the nucleus of that system.

Good descriptor of KD. I think most here are pretty clear on his value as a player, which has only become more crystallized over time. The mainstream narrative about him being Lebron’s sole peer is rather off the mark. KD is a guy who needs to play off others to maximize his value - he’s not the centerpiece on a great offense.

Where do you think Kobe and Jordan fall? Closer to LeBron or KD in that regard?

I have Kobe and Jordan as clearly ahead of KD as offensive hubs, though neither can play the heliocentric role like Lebron does.

[Dr Positivity]

Good descriptor of KD. I think most here are pretty clear on his value as a player, which has only become more crystallized over time. The mainstream narrative about him being Lebron’s sole peer is rather off the mark. KD is a guy who needs to play off others to maximize his value - he’s not the centerpiece on a great offense.

Where do you think Kobe and Jordan fall? Closer to LeBron or KD in that regard?

I have Kobe and Jordan as clearly ahead of KD as offensive hubs, though neither can play the heliocentric role like Lebron does.

I feel like Kobe was his team's PG as much as Lebron, not as good a player though. Jordan under Phil played more off ball than both but still a good playmaker and proved he could be as ball dominant if he wanted.

[Peregrine01]

Where do you think Kobe and Jordan fall? Closer to LeBron or KD in that regard?

I have Kobe and Jordan as clearly ahead of KD as offensive hubs, though neither can play the heliocentric role like Lebron does.

I feel like Kobe was his team's PG as much as Lebron, not as good a player though. Jordan under Phil played more off ball than both but still a good playmaker and proved he could be as ball dominant if he wanted.

That's kind of how I saw it too. I think playmaking is generally used too narrowly. To me, it means putting pressure on defenses to open up easier looks for teammates. That can be done directly with the pass or indirectly by drawing so much attention from defenses that it creates opportunities for others.

To me, I don't think KD did either as well as the contemporaries and past offensive greats that he's often compared with, despite being a highly efficient volume scorer. Defenses are rather content just letting him get his, since "getting his" usually entails pacifying his teammates. Both Kobe and Jordan, despite being high volume scorers themselves, seemed to uplift the play of their teammates in ways that KD just doesn't.

[Doctor MJ]

Where do you think Kobe and Jordan fall? Closer to LeBron or KD in that regard?

I have Kobe and Jordan as clearly ahead of KD as offensive hubs, though neither can play the heliocentric role like Lebron does.

I feel like Kobe was his team's PG as much as Lebron, not as good a player though. Jordan under Phil played more off ball than both but still a good playmaker and proved he could be as ball dominant if he wanted.

Ah but remember when Kobe would actually go into PG-mode? He thought by proving he could play scorer or play passer that meant he could do it all. Kobe basically made clear that he didn't understand that optimal play meant just making the right decision.

All that said, he was clearly smarter out there than KD .

[Colbinii]

I have Kobe and Jordan as clearly ahead of KD as offensive hubs, though neither can play the heliocentric role like Lebron does.

I feel like Kobe was his team's PG as much as Lebron, not as good a player though. Jordan under Phil played more off ball than both but still a good playmaker and proved he could be as ball dominant if he wanted.

Ah but remember when Kobe would actually go into PG-mode? He thought by proving he could play scorer or play passer that meant he could do it all. Kobe basically made clear that he didn't understand that optimal play meant just making the right decision.

All that said, he was clearly smarter out there than KD .

That was great and Jordan would do the same.

Its part of why guys like LeBron, Nash, Bird, Magic, Oscar and even Paul are [in my opinion] better offensive players. They could almost effortlessly and without thinking make the correct or optimal basketball play.

Yes, it was often correct for the 50% mid-range shooter in Michael Jordan to take that shot but it often wasn't correct for the low-to-mid 40% mid-range shooter in Kobe to be taking those shots routinely.

I dont want to make this seem like I am bashing Kobe--he had one hell of a career and is a clear top 15-20 player of all-time.

[MO12msu]

Jazz or Suns gonna be rewarded with the Lakers in round 1

[Dr Positivity]

Lakers/Warriors play in game... all the ratings

[Strepbacter]

I have Kobe and Jordan as clearly ahead of KD as offensive hubs, though neither can play the heliocentric role like Lebron does.

I feel like Kobe was his team's PG as much as Lebron, not as good a player though. Jordan under Phil played more off ball than both but still a good playmaker and proved he could be as ball dominant if he wanted.

Ah but remember when Kobe would actually go into PG-mode? He thought by proving he could play scorer or play passer that meant he could do it all. Kobe basically made clear that he didn't understand that optimal play meant just making the right decision.

All that said, he was clearly smarter out there than KD .

This a hilariously reductive read of Bryant's game.

Bryant was one of the eight best offensive players ever. I'm guessing he had a far greater understanding of optimal play than you do.

[Colbinii]

I feel like Kobe was his team's PG as much as Lebron, not as good a player though. Jordan under Phil played more off ball than both but still a good playmaker and proved he could be as ball dominant if he wanted.

Ah but remember when Kobe would actually go into PG-mode? He thought by proving he could play scorer or play passer that meant he could do it all. Kobe basically made clear that he didn't understand that optimal play meant just making the right decision.

All that said, he was clearly smarter out there than KD .

This a hilariously reductive read of Bryant's game.

Bryant was one of the eight best offensive players ever. I'm guessing he had a far greater understanding of optimal play than you do.

Don't shoot the messenger