Retro POY '01-02 (ends Thu morning PST)

[sp6r=underrated]

I guess it is time to vote. As always I enjoyed the conversation between posters in this thread. My general opinion is that 1-2 was very close and 3-7 was very close.

1. Shaq: The more I thought about it, the more easy this vote was. Similar logic to Mufusa, Ronnymac, and "Doctor MJ." I should address the SA series briefly. I have voted before for players who got outplayed in a series, and I know of several years going back were I will be voting the same way. Shaq had an epic playoffs after the SA series, so it wasn't like he sputtered his way through the playoffs. Duncan played amazing in the PO. Still it would have taken a truly historic level series against LA, for me to vote against Shaq who had a great PS, and while Duncan's was great it didn't reach that level.
2. TD: easy choice

3. KG:
4. Dirk:

I have to agree with Drza that the 4 are being undersold in this thread. While PO matter a lot to me, head to head doesn't, or to be more precise I don't give special attention to head to head series in comparison to other series. Like him I just wasn't as sold on Dirk, though I have to admit the great posts by Mystic make me feel like I don't appreciate Dirk enough.

5. Kobe: I debated heavily T-MAC and Kobe. I decided to look at how Kobe did in the 15 games Shaq missed to get an idea of how 2002 Kobe would have done without Shaq.

MPG, PPG, RPG, APG, BPG, SPG, TOV, TS
39.7, 28.4, 6.3, 6.2, 0.5, 1.2, 2.9, .519

The lakers went 7-8 over the games. (8 home games, 8 games against teams that didn't make playoffs).

I generally wasn't as impressed with Kobe's playoffs as others are. He scored with an Iverson level efficiency and had large stretches were he was really struggling. IMO, Kobe is making people's top 3 or 4 primarily for the PO. He didn't play that great and was playing as a number 2. So I'm not elevating him and I think it is very much a mistake to have him top 3.

Still though I have to acknowledge he is close enough to T-MAC that I'll give him the edge.

HM
TMAC: I have no confidence I made the right decision
Kidd: I am a skeptic of Kidd. Great player but I feel about him the way Gongxi and Drza feel about Nash

[TMACFORMVP]

Here's my vote:

1. Shaquille O'neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Jason Kidd

[ElGee]

My 2002 POY Ballot:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Shaquillle O'Neal
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dirk Nowitzki

Duncan and Shaq are agonizingly close...so the tiebreaker is essentially the games missed.

After that there is a huge drop to 3rd. I'm a little stuck on what to do there and there have been a lot of quality posts delving into these three players. As I've said before, KG takes a leap the next year, and I don't think he was having the same defensive impact in that scheme. Heck, against Washington they had him guarding Michael Jordan (not a good idea). That said, I think he impacts the game in way more ways than Kobe, his team has a really good ORtg, yada yada the usual.

But Kobe had a subpar season across the board (regular season and playoff performance). A better year (03, 01) and he would be 3rd.

Dirk, also in this group, falls in 5th with just ridiculous offensive production. Still, he was on an offensive juggernaut and I think his best days -- skill wise and performance wise -- are yet to come.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Shaq
2. Duncan

As I said I'm voting Shaq for the 3 title years barring a great argument against. This year I see Shaq as clearly the alpha dog and big daddy of the league and he killed all in the playoffs/finals. Prime Shaq is one of the best players ever

Duncan is the Durant to his Oden, easy #2

3. Kobe - I think the guy's a winner. I kind of regret putting Tmac so high in 03 in retrospect. The more I think of it, the more Kobe is what I want from a star player mentally just as much as Tmac isn't. I want the guy obsessed with winning and who will do anything for it, not the guy with questions of whether he cares.

4. Dirk - Gets the edge over KG because Dirk laid one of the biggest cans of whoop-ass ever in their playoff series. Best offense in the league with early Nash and Finley, pretty impressive.

After that it comes down to KG, Tmac, Kidd, and Webber who missed a lot of games but had a probably should've been the best player on a champion if not for the refs run. I remain a unimpressed by Tmac's poor efficiency on one of the best 3pt shooting teams in the league giving great spacing. I just don't know about Kidd due to his weak shooting. He obviously helped a lot on d but I am unsure of how much impact an individual perimeter player can have defensively. So KG and Webber. I'm going...

5. Kevin Garnett - 21/12/5 with defense, led a 50 win Twolves. Got steamrolled by Dirk but w/e.

Because after all this is about the best players... even if equals, Webber has to be hurt for GP.

[tha_rock220]

Choosing between Duncan and Shaq in 02 is incredibly hard. I guess what it comes down to is Shaq was the won who lead his team to the title and got the Finals MVP even though he and Duncan basically neutralized each other in the playoffs that year.

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Kidd
4. Kobe
5. Garnett

[Silver Bullet]

1. Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Duncan
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Jason Kidd

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm not trying to crap on Kidd, as I generally have respect for his game. He's been a great player for a long time.

But I'm just not seeing this --

15 points on 39% shooting (48% EFG), 10 assists and seven rebounds; led his team to the Finals in a conference where 52 wins was good enough to earn the No. 1 seed

-- as a Top 5 player.

I generally don't like the whole "weaker-conference" argument, but in this case I think it fits as getting to the Finals was a major -- possibly only -- feather in Jason's cap.

Put that team in today's Western conference, and there's a decent chance the Nets don't even make the playoffs.

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

[Optimism Prime]

1 Shaq
2 Duncan
3 Garnett
4 Bryant
5 Dirk

[Doctor MJ]

'01-02 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Shaquille O'Neal 16   8   1   0   0 221   0.884
2. Tim Duncan        9  14   2   0   0 198   0.792
3. Kobe Bryant       0   3   8  10   4  95   0.380
4. Kevin Garnett     0   0   7   1   3  41   0.164
5. Tracy McGrady     0   0   5   3   5  39   0.156
6. Jason Kidd        0   0   2   6   7  35   0.140
7. Dirk Nowitzki     0   0   0   4   5  17   0.068
8. Chris Webber      0   0   0   1   0   3   0.012
9. Paul Pierce       0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004


[bastillon]

'01-02 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Shaquille O'Neal 16   8   1   0   0 221   0.884
2. Tim Duncan        9  14   2   0   0 198   0.792
3. Kobe Bryant       0   3   8  10   4  95   0.380
4. Kevin Garnett     0   0   7   1   3  41   0.164
5. Tracy McGrady     0   0   5   3   5  39   0.156
6. Jason Kidd        0   0   2   6   7  35   0.140
7. Dirk Nowitzki     0   0   0   4   5  17   0.068
8. Chris Webber      0   0   0   1   0   3   0.012
9. Paul Pierce       0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004


wow, Kobe got so overrated. there isn't any reason to rank him over KG/T-Mac and let alone outproducing them COMBINED in POY shares...

[sp6r=underrated]

'01-02 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Shaquille O'Neal 16   8   1   0   0 221   0.884
2. Tim Duncan        9  14   2   0   0 198   0.792
3. Kobe Bryant       0   3   8  10   4  95   0.380
4. Kevin Garnett     0   0   7   1   3  41   0.164
5. Tracy McGrady     0   0   5   3   5  39   0.156
6. Jason Kidd        0   0   2   6   7  35   0.140
7. Dirk Nowitzki     0   0   0   4   5  17   0.068
8. Chris Webber      0   0   0   1   0   3   0.012
9. Paul Pierce       0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004


wow, Kobe got so overrated. there isn't any reason to rank him over KG/T-Mac and let alone outproducing them COMBINED in POY shares...

I voted for KG and Dirk over Kobe, and share your disagreement with top 3 votes. Though I will say, 3-7 was very close for myself and most people, so even if someone had Kobe at and T-MAC at 7 it didn't mean they thought it was a huge gap or anything.

[bastillon]

Kobe 0.38
KG 0.16
T-Mac 0.16
Kidd 0.14
Dirk 0.7

close call between these players ? agreed.
but it's just that something doesn't add up here, because it wasn't a close call according to voters in the first place. I don't know.

[NO-KG-AI]

Well it's pretty easy when you see "omg, if you put this player above Kobe, im gonna rank him at 1-2 just to make up the difference".

He seems to be the only one getting absurdly high ratings in years he shouldn't, but that's to be expected given the circumstances.

[Gongxi]

That's kinda what I was talking about in the perils of having a quarter of the voting base be Laker fans, but oh well.

[sp6r=underrated]

Well it's pretty easy when you see "omg, if you put this player above Kobe, im gonna rank him at 1-2 just to make up the difference".

He seems to be the only one getting absurdly high ratings in years he shouldn't, but that's to be expected given the circumstances.

In fairness
1. Kobe got undersold in 06 by some voters.
2. Only two voters really gave Kobe a high push, and I don't think they were manipulating ballots just very misguided individuals.

[Sedale Threatt]

I left him off my ballot entirely for 04.

[drza]

Well it's pretty easy when you see "omg, if you put this player above Kobe, im gonna rank him at 1-2 just to make up the difference".

He seems to be the only one getting absurdly high ratings in years he shouldn't, but that's to be expected given the circumstances.

In fairness
1. Kobe got undersold in 06 by some voters.
2. Only two voters really gave Kobe a high push, and I don't think they were manipulating ballots just very misguided individuals.

LOL! I was planning on coming in and making a similar "to-be-fair" type response, because as we've seen with Kobe, Nash, and KG in particular there are definite differences of opinion about them. I don't think it's a conspiracy or manipulation.

So, I was nodding soberly as I ready your post...until the last line. Then I laughed out loud.

[NO-KG-AI]

I agree with both of you, but I know whenever it comes down to "I could have put either guy here" he's going to get the benefit of the doubt, and then we have the person making him top 2 with the other person being number 1, and the team winning 50 games and getting bounced.

He got undersold when his teams are bad, which is why it's funny, he's getting the leg up on guys like T-Mac and KG right now, and when he was forced to deal with teams like KG has, he ends up off the ballot like 04-05.

But yea, KG, Kobe, Nash... the polarizing figures that make this project so interesting

[Sedale Threatt]

I left him off for sucking in the Finals and creating a year-long distraction with his Colorado drama.