Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate?

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Who is better?

DWill
61
41%
CP3
86
59%
 
Total votes: 147

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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#181 » by dogrufus » Wed Dec 1, 2010 7:28 am

erudite23 wrote: But there's other "stats" that favor Deron. For example, there is a stat called drawn charges and Deron annually bests Paul there. But you don't see it bandied about much for some reason. I can't even find it online without digging. But there are others. Like 6'3" versus 6'0". Deron is able to contest shots and bother people in a way that Paul can't. 220 pounds versus 190. You never see an opposing PG post Deron up twice. Some are dumb enough to try once, but then that's that. Paul, though, is at the mercy of bigger guys in the post (often forcing either a switch, or a big guy to help, thus resulting in another player's stats reflecting the mismatch...which is not reflected in Opp PER). I've seen it with my own eyes. I've also seen Paul get caught up going through screens on a regular basis and I've seen him leave his man wide open in an effort to pick someone from behind or to jump a pass he sees coming. I've seen it. I guess there's no way to prove things from an anecdotal perspective, but I've seen it. And, ultimately, defense is a team proposition. Paul's defense has been just a tad bit better than Deron's...with better big men. If Paul was so much better than Deron, along with his defensive bigs being that much better, too....wouldn't that show up in the team stats? No one has answered that.


So now we're penalizing Chris Paul's defense because he plays with better defensive big men. Are you also willing to penalize Williams' offense for playing with better offensive big men? I didn't think so.

But that's a good point about the drawn charges. A drawn charge is probably almost as good as a steal (gives the opponent a foul, but doesn't lead to easy buckets). Does he draw more than two additional charges per game than Paul? Because then it'd be approaching the impact of Paul's steals.

Deron does have a few advantages. No one can deny he is bigger. He can guard some SGs and he is better in the post. Quite frankly though post play has become rare enough these days among big men, let alone point guards. It's not exactly a huge deal for a PG. And Paul does have some quickness advantage over Deron though he has lost about a 1/4 step since the knee injury. His hands are probably the quickest in the league though.

The thing with CP3 is that generally, he can't guard the Tyreke Evans-sized PGs of the world but they can't stay in front of him either, so they generally put smaller defenders on CP3. Deron is one of the very few body types that will match up really well. He has the maximum size and bulk a defender can have while having juust enough quickness and mobility to stay with CP3 off the dribble. It's like how Yao matches up really well with Dwight Howard because of that big size advantage, but most people agree who generally impacts games more in this league.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#182 » by NO-KG-AI » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:29 am

Size=/= defense, much in the way that it doesn't equal rebounding(hence Deron never grabbing 9 or more boards).

Paul played a full year without a good defensive big. Chandler played half the season, and played the other half on a busted ankle and was terrible, the dude couldn't even jump in the playoffs. The rest of the season was played with David West and Sean Marks, and Paul had a much better defensive rating and +/- than Deron has ever recorded. The Hornets were still 9th defensively, with Paul standing way out in first place in defensive rating amongst every Hornets player, particularly the guys who actually saw significant floor time.

I'm sure Deron is better at guarding centers than Paul is too, but he can't guard his spot well enough to even outplay his own backups, so good luck with that.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#183 » by BarneyGumble » Wed Dec 1, 2010 3:39 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:Deron Vs. Cp3 is the first case in the history of basketball where coaches and stats side with one guy in lopsided manner, but there is still an argument.


This is the most delusional post of the decade. The stats are lopsided? Really? If I recall...CP3 in his MVP-runner up season only had Deron by about a point and an assist per game. Yeah, thats pretty lopsided.

And last I checked, more coaches are on the DWill bandwagon than the dick-puncher bandwagon....so again, lopsided?

You lose credibility with these ridiculous claims...
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#184 » by BarneyGumble » Wed Dec 1, 2010 3:41 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:
I'm sure Deron is better at guarding centers than Paul is too, but he can't guard his spot well enough to even outplay his own backups, so good luck with that.


Another gem from the man who said Deron was not even the best player on the Jazz.

Yeah, we love ya NO-KG-AI! Keep up the comedy :lol:
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#185 » by Bradford » Wed Dec 1, 2010 5:40 pm

DWill_daShizzle wrote:
NO-KG-AI wrote:
I'm sure Deron is better at guarding centers than Paul is too, but he can't guard his spot well enough to even outplay his own backups, so good luck with that.


Another gem from the man who said Deron was not even the best player on the Jazz.

Yeah, we love ya NO-KG-AI! Keep up the comedy :lol:
He said that? lol who exactly does he think is their best player then?!??
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#186 » by dogrufus » Wed Dec 1, 2010 6:06 pm

DWill_daShizzle wrote:This is the most delusional post of the decade. The stats are lopsided? Really? If I recall...CP3 in his MVP-runner up season only had Deron by about a point and an assist per game. Yeah, thats pretty lopsided.

And last I checked, more coaches are on the DWill bandwagon than the dick-puncher bandwagon....so again, lopsided?

You lose credibility with these ridiculous claims...


If you were smarter you would understand that raw numbers aren't the most important thing. Paul got his numbers in a much slower paced system than Deron (higher pace inflates counting stats) and with much better efficiency.

I don't know why I'm bothering though, I might as well be talking to a dog. Even if you were smart enough to understand advanced stats, your massive bias would prevent it anyway.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#187 » by FJS » Wed Dec 1, 2010 6:59 pm

I'm not going to say if Deron is better or not than Paul, but the thing is than two years ago, nobody would have taken Deron, right now the thing is 46% to Deron 54% to Paul, so something is changing in people's minds.

The thing is any of those two are significantly better than the other one, and some people here are trying to make a case than one is hands down better than other, and this is laughable.

In my mind Deron is raising his level, and Paul is maintain it. Right now is a toss up, and you can't lose with any of two.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#188 » by BarneyGumble » Wed Dec 1, 2010 7:08 pm

dogrufus wrote:If you were smarter you would understand that raw numbers aren't the most important thing. Paul got his numbers in a much slower paced system than Deron (higher pace inflates counting stats) and with much better efficiency.

I don't know why I'm bothering though, I might as well be talking to a dog. Even if you were smart enough to understand advanced stats, your massive bias would prevent it anyway.


Wait, a guy named dog-rufus is comparing me to a dog? :lol:
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#189 » by BarneyGumble » Wed Dec 1, 2010 7:12 pm

Bradford wrote:He said that? lol who exactly does he think is their best player then?!??


a few days ago, from the New Orleans Forum:

NO-KG-AI wrote:Deron Williams needs to become clearly the best player on his team before he can start talking to real superstars.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#190 » by dogrufus » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:07 pm

FJS wrote:I'm not going to say if Deron is better or not than Paul, but the thing is than two years ago, nobody would have taken Deron, right now the thing is 46% to Deron 54% to Paul, so something is changing in people's minds.

The thing is any of those two are significantly better than the other one, and some people here are trying to make a case than one is hands down better than other, and this is laughable.

In my mind Deron is raising his level, and Paul is maintain it. Right now is a toss up, and you can't lose with any of two.


The only reason the poll is anywhere close is because everyone wrote Paul off when he was hurt last year and this thread is full of Jazz fans while the Hornets have no fans. If you took a poll of fans of teams other than the Jazz or Hornets it wouldn't be nearly as close.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#191 » by dogrufus » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:16 pm

DWill_daShizzle wrote:
Wait, a guy named dog-rufus is comparing me to a dog? :lol:


I suppose I should apologize to dogs, they're usually easier to reason with.

Whatever I might compare you to it's not nearly as absurd as a guy named DWill_daShizzle expecting to be taken seriously in a debate on Chris Paul vs. his man crush.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#192 » by carrottop12 » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:21 pm

There seems to be an opinion that Jazz fans have sour grapes over taking Deron before Paul because of Paul's statistics, and that is why we argue that Deron is better than Paul to avoid embarrassment.

This would be the only time in the history of sports when statistics are valued more highly than winning, especially when you have two players who are clearly the best on their team, and clearly the best at their position.

If the Jazz had taken Deron, and he had repeatedly left them out of the playoffs, and Paul was taking his team to the WCF, and had 4 playoff series wins, I'd probably be sour.

But Paul hasn't done any of that. In fact, since he's been on the team, and presumably the best player on the team, they've missed the playoffs more often than they've made them. :blank:
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#193 » by BarneyGumble » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:26 pm

dogrufus wrote:The only reason the poll is anywhere close is because everyone wrote Paul off when he was hurt last year and this thread is full of Jazz fans while the Hornets have no fans. If you took a poll of fans of teams other than the Jazz or Hornets it wouldn't be nearly as close.


You mean like the GM poll that was conducted at the beginning of the season? Or do you mean just a poll for people that lean towards Chris Paul? :)
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#194 » by BarneyGumble » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:28 pm

dogrufus wrote:
DWill_daShizzle wrote:
Wait, a guy named dog-rufus is comparing me to a dog? :lol:


I suppose I should apologize to dogs, they're usually easier to reason with.

Whatever I might compare you to it's not nearly as absurd as a guy named DWill_daShizzle expecting to be taken seriously in a debate on Chris Paul vs. his man crush.


I will concede that I am the biggest DWill homer on these boards and that I cannot be objective to debate with, but thats only because DWill is the best! hahaahah.

That being said, I can still point out faulty logic that others use like saying stats tell the story but then refusing to acknowledge winning head-to-head games or playoff wins as a meaningful stat.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#195 » by BarneyGumble » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:30 pm

Bat wrote:There seems to be an opinion that Jazz fans have sour grapes over taking Deron before Paul because of Paul's statistics, and that is why we argue that Deron is better than Paul to avoid embarrassment.

This would be the only time in the history of sports when statistics are valued more highly than winning, especially when you have two players who are clearly the best on their team, and clearly the best at their position.

If the Jazz had taken Deron, and he had repeatedly left them out of the playoffs, and Paul was taking his team to the WCF, and had 4 playoff series wins, I'd probably be sour.

But Paul hasn't done any of that. In fact, since he's been on the team, and presumably the best player on the team, they've missed the playoffs more often than they've made them. :blank:


This post deserves some kind of an award. :clap:
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#196 » by dogrufus » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:31 pm

Bat wrote:There seems to be an opinion that Jazz fans have sour grapes over taking Deron before Paul because of Paul's statistics, and that is why we argue that Deron is better than Paul to avoid embarrassment.
:



No, you don't argue for Deron to avoid embarassment. You do so because you are HOMERS. Biased, non-objective homers. That's what all these BS "winning" arguments come down to. If you happened to be a Hornets fan you'd be arguing how the stats show Paul is better and Deron is winning more because his teams have had more talent and better coaching.

If it was anything more than you all just being massive homers, then we'd see fans of teams other than the Jazz coming here in droves to argue that Deron is superior. But we haven't seen that. In fact, the majority of posters without an agenda (like myself, a Knick fan) have calmly pointed out that Paul is the better player. You are just a bunch of biased homers. That's why none of your anecdotal, completely unsupported opinions about why Williams is the Bill Russell of point guards aren't convincing anyone who isn't already convinced.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#197 » by carrottop12 » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:35 pm

It would make sense to call me a homer if everything I have been saying is false. You can defend losing with superior shooting numbers all you want, but I'll keep the guy who leads his team to wins, always.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#198 » by BarneyGumble » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:40 pm

dogrufus wrote:
Bat wrote:There seems to be an opinion that Jazz fans have sour grapes over taking Deron before Paul because of Paul's statistics, and that is why we argue that Deron is better than Paul to avoid embarrassment.
:



No, you don't argue for Deron to avoid embarassment. You do so because you are HOMERS. Biased, non-objective homers. That's what all these BS "winning" arguments come down to. If you happened to be a Hornets fan you'd be arguing how the stats show Paul is better and Deron is winning more because his teams have had more talent and better coaching.


Thats not true. In their rookie campaigns, even I was saying the Jazz probably messed up and drafted the wrong guy. I mean, in their rookie seasons...there really wasnt much of an argument. But now, things have changed. DWill has stepped up his game above and beyond Paul's. And we just relish it is all...

If it was anything more than you all just being massive homers, then we'd see fans of teams other than the Jazz coming here in droves to argue that Deron is superior. But we haven't seen that. In fact, the majority of posters without an agenda (like myself, a Knick fan) have calmly pointed out that Paul is the better player.


Well looking through this thread and the General Board thread, there are plenty of non-Jazz fans that think DWill is numero uno.

But you are correct...Paul still leads this poll in this thread. But honestly, the guys who matter are picking Deron. Guys who cover the games and get paid for their analysis...and guys who play the game and get paid for it. I'm taling about guys like Barkley, Legler, Jalen Rose, Charlie Rosen, Kobe Bryant, Brandon Jennings, the more than half of GMs in the league, and other who have proclaimed publicly that Deron is the #1 player at his position...
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#199 » by erudite23 » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:40 pm

dogrufus wrote:
So now we're penalizing Chris Paul's defense because he plays with better defensive big men. Are you also willing to penalize Williams' offense for playing with better offensive big men? I didn't think so.


I'm not "penalizing", and the point about Deron's superior offensive squads being more to do with his superior supporting cast has been made ad-naseum for years, without anyone ever throwing the Hornets defensive superiority into question. So while the Jazz have better (at times far better) offense, it's because of D-Wills supporting cast, but when the Hornets have better defense its because of CP? Huh?


But that's a good point about the drawn charges. A drawn charge is probably almost as good as a steal (gives the opponent a foul, but doesn't lead to easy buckets). Does he draw more than two additional charges per game than Paul? Because then it'd be approaching the impact of Paul's steals.


I'd say its generally a far better indicator of defensive performance, since defense is all about moving your feet and getting into good position. Leaders in drawn charges much closer resemble a list of high quality defenders than that of steals or blocked shots. And a drawn charge has at least as much value as a steal because it turns the ball over, gets the opposing player in foul trouble and helps push the other team into the bonus (which leads to easier scoring opportunities).


Deron does have a few advantages. No one can deny he is bigger. He can guard some SGs and he is better in the post. Quite frankly though post play has become rare enough these days among big men, let alone point guards. It's not exactly a huge deal for a PG. And Paul does have some quickness advantage over Deron though he has lost about a 1/4 step since the knee injury. His hands are probably the quickest in the league though.

The thing with CP3 is that generally, he can't guard the Tyreke Evans-sized PGs of the world but they can't stay in front of him either, so they generally put smaller defenders on CP3. Deron is one of the very few body types that will match up really well. He has the maximum size and bulk a defender can have while having juust enough quickness and mobility to stay with CP3 off the dribble. It's like how Yao matches up really well with Dwight Howard because of that big size advantage, but most people agree who generally impacts games more in this league.


I don't want to try and say that CP's steals and such aren't good qualities, because they obviously are. And I agree, he probably has some of the quickest hands in the league. Top 5 certainly. All I'm saying is that he is the type of player who's positives are easily quantified, (particularly on defense, but also to a certain degree offensively) but who's negatives are easily obscured in respect to statistics. Deron is the opposite, hence the nature of the debate.


Also, one of the biggest advantages that Deron has is in the post. He gets at least one easy bucket a game from posting up his opponent, and when he plays a small guy like CP, Parker or Aaron Brooks, he goes to the well a lot, sometimes they just feed him the ball until the other team is forced to make a change. Its a pretty big deal, and is becoming even more so. As he ages, I wouldn't be surprised to see him become a Gary Payton level threat down there. He has an amazing body for it, and he's got a natural feel for back-to-the-basket play.
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Re: Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate? 

Post#200 » by dogrufus » Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:41 pm

Bat wrote:It would make sense to call me a homer if everything I have been saying is false. You can defend losing with superior shooting numbers all you want, but I'll keep the guy who leads his team to wins, always.


Ok then Rajon Rondo is the best PG in the NBA by your standard.

Apparently we're not allowed to consider the level of talent a player's team has had while evaluating their success, so Rondo has been the best PG in the NBA since 2008. He's won a ring and been to 2 Finals.

Why are we even debating Williams and Paul? It should be Rondo vs. everyone else.

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