RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2

Moderators: trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ

Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,561
And1: 22,543
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#181 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:20 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Hmm....so I guess I go back to my question about how we should look at Mikan then. He was a true pioneer of the game, and used that hook to yield a tremendous span of dominance in comparison to his peers.


Both this and the below question are good ones. For me this is where I get into "How impressive was the talent/skill pool?"

It's quite correct in my mind to view the talent/skill pool as an S curve:

Image

I think most would agree that depending on where you are on the S curve, the more impressive a certain level of dominance is.

I think that the formation of the NBA occurs during the steep part of the curve, and that by the late 60s we're on the high end of things. There's more to it than that of course. The talent/skill pool has gotten bigger since then, but we've also had a ton of expansion.

Why do I say the late 60s is at about the modern levels? The FG% is a big one for me. In the first yea of the BAA the average FG% was 27.9. 10 years later it was at 38.0. And then in the next 10 year increments: 44.1, 46.5, 48.0, 45.5, 45.8.

So FG% has been about the same for the past 45 years, after skyrocketing for the first 20. To me that stabilization doesn't happen if we're seeing major changes to the quality of players in the league.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:What exactly would Russell do, that a guy like Mutumbo didn't in today's game? Could he even realistically match Dwight's imapct on Orlando? I hate asking these questions, because it seems like I'm diminishing Russell as a player, but I have to ask.


I think the key thing to understand about Russell is the quickness that comes partially because of his smaller frame. People tend to want to think that the bigger a center is the better, but everything is a tradeoff. Russell talked about his advantage over Wilt being the "horizontal game". This obviously didn't mean Russell didn't get vertical, but rather that he was always moving in and out from the basket to impact the opposing offense in more areas than a big, slower guy like Wilt could.

Now consider Hakeem Olajuwon. Hakeem was about the same size as Russell, and he's the only guy since they started tracking the stats who averaged 4 blocks and 2 steals in a season. Body-wise, he's the guy to compare Russell to.

But then also consider Kevin Garnett, who also is a long, lanky guy. In addition to moving around a lot like Russell, he's become a master defensive quarterback (or "linebacker" - I'm trying to get that slang term going). He has the awareness to see how the offense is flowing, make the right move, and tell his teammates to make the right move. I believe Russell had that in at least the quantity Garnett does - and frankly I can't imagine him being named player/coach otherwise.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
User avatar
An Unbiased Fan
RealGM
Posts: 11,738
And1: 5,709
Joined: Jan 16, 2009
       

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#182 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:24 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:There was nothing in Dwight Howard's offensive game a couple of years ago that Russell wouldn't have matched the moment he set foot in the modern league, the relevant difference being Russell's era and ours being that Howard faces a less congested paint in this era than Russell did in his.

Russell sure didn't come close to matching Dwight's efficiency. I really can't understand how a 20+ rpg center, isn't shooting 50% plus with ease, simply on putbacks. I mean he's shooting over 6'7-6'9 guys, and still putting up horrible efficiency in the paint. And keep in mind that the lane was only 12 feet wide until 65'.

Meanwhile, I don't know how Howard is against post scorers, because he rarely faces them. Anybody have stats or anecdotes from when he does?

In 2011, Orlando had the #1 center defense, giving up 46.9% FG, and #2 paint defense at 46.1%.
7-time RealGM MVPoster 2009-2016
Inducted into RealGM HOF 1st ballot in 2017
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 30,423
And1: 9,952
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#183 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:25 am

The problem with this argument is that we are talking Russell v. Kareem and the league didn't change that much. It was still a post scoring dominated league with no 3 point shot; just one that had two changes that gave players the opportunity to put up much flashier stats.

1. Expansion -- as someone posted, an undue percentage of the "most dominant" teams in history came from the period right after expansion when there were some truly horrible teams with zero talent. Players could fatten up their numbers and teams their W-L records against those weak expansion franchises.

2. The ABA -- the advent of the ABA gave players more power while stripping away some of the power. Whether this is related or not, it also led to a period where a lot of the great scorers almost boasted about not having to play defense (Gervin actually made the comment that defense is for those who can't score). Lazy defense also tends to inflate numbers and people playing for a possible big contract don't always play team ball (though they might also put in more effort because it's a contract year -- I would guess individual play for lazy players gets better while team cohesion gets worse; for true pros there would be a much smaller differential though they are human too).

Both of these factors would make it easier to be dominant in the 70s than in the 60s would be my guess based off available evidence -- not harder.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
GilmoreFan
Banned User
Posts: 1,042
And1: 2
Joined: May 30, 2011
Location: Dzra- KG's supporting casts on the Wolves were not similarly bad to anyone of his generation

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#184 » by GilmoreFan » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:36 am

Doc MJ, you can find more of my thoughts on KG's Wolves teams here:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1113634&p=28193168
User avatar
Optimism Prime
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 3,374
And1: 35
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
 

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#185 » by Optimism Prime » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:40 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Lots of stuff.


I'm sure this was a great post, but I just have to go on record as laughing when I saw "penetration."

I'm still a fifth-grader at heart.
Hello ladies. Look at your posts. Now back to mine. Now back at your posts now back to MINE. Sadly, they aren't mine. But if your posts started using Optimism™, they could sound like mine. This post is now diamonds.

I'm on a horse.
GilmoreFan
Banned User
Posts: 1,042
And1: 2
Joined: May 30, 2011
Location: Dzra- KG's supporting casts on the Wolves were not similarly bad to anyone of his generation

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#186 » by GilmoreFan » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:43 am

Jeff23 wrote:Vote: Russell
Nominating: Garnett


Not on the list. Sorry.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,561
And1: 22,543
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#187 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:45 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:I really can't understand how a 20+ rpg center, isn't shooting 50% plus with ease, simply on putbacks. I mean he's shooting over 6'7-6'9 guys, and still putting up horrible efficiency in the paint. And keep in mind that the lane was only 12 feet wide until 65'.


Ah, a key thing to understand is that as his career progressed he played offense further away from the basket to take advantage of his abilities as a distributor and presumably to make it that much easier for him to get back on the defense end.

So this wasn't a case of a guy becoming astonishingly bad at tip ins, it was case of a guy playing out of scoring position for tactical reasons.

Not saying he'd have ever been Wilt as a scorer, but if that had been the focus on his game, I expect we'd see scoring improvements over the course of his career like we typically see with a guy building his skillset and savvy.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
GilmoreFan
Banned User
Posts: 1,042
And1: 2
Joined: May 30, 2011
Location: Dzra- KG's supporting casts on the Wolves were not similarly bad to anyone of his generation

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#188 » by GilmoreFan » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:46 am

I forget if I counted Doc MJ's vote already, and realgm is still being ridiculously slow for some reason atm, so if someone else wants to go back and count it... isn't there only a few hours left for the vote? When happens in the event of a tie? We get the one die hard Wilt fan to change their vote?
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,561
And1: 22,543
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#189 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:48 am

Optimism Prime wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Lots of stuff.


I'm sure this was a great post, but I just have to go on record as laughing when I saw "penetration."

I'm still a fifth-grader at heart.


You're just lucky I didn't post a sine curve. :o
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,561
And1: 22,543
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#190 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:50 am

GilmoreFan wrote:I forget if I counted Doc MJ's vote already, and realgm is still being ridiculously slow for some reason atm, so if someone else wants to go back and count it... isn't there only a few hours left for the vote? When happens in the event of a tie? We get the one die hard Wilt fan to change their vote?


In the event of a tie, we allow in the guy who agrees with me.

(Actually, previously we did runoffs between the guys who are tied, but it's up to Baller & Beast.)
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
User avatar
Dr Positivity
RealGM
Posts: 62,863
And1: 16,408
Joined: Apr 29, 2009
       

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#191 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jul 3, 2011 12:51 am

Optimism Prime wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Lots of stuff.


I'm sure this was a great post, but I just have to go on record as laughing when I saw "penetration."

I'm still a fifth-grader at heart.


The chart doubles for Wilt's off court exploits

(and triples for Vince's on court game, if you flip it upside down)
Liberate The Zoomers
GilmoreFan
Banned User
Posts: 1,042
And1: 2
Joined: May 30, 2011
Location: Dzra- KG's supporting casts on the Wolves were not similarly bad to anyone of his generation

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#192 » by GilmoreFan » Sun Jul 3, 2011 1:52 am

In any event, once we get to the 4th or 5th vote, I think we're probably going to need some kind of preference system or re-vote for the people who didn't vote for the 2 leading candidates. Candidates shouldn't get voted in without a majority. It wasn't a problem with Jordan because he won so easily (and even for Erving it was clear he'd have won a revote), but come the 4th or 5th position there's going to be a much wider array of candidates getting votes I think.
User avatar
Baller 24
RealGM
Posts: 16,637
And1: 19
Joined: Feb 11, 2006

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#193 » by Baller 24 » Sun Jul 3, 2011 1:56 am

Yeah a vote off would be fine, Gilmore fan, if I'm counting correctly, Russell is +1 right now, correct?
dockingsched wrote: the biggest loss of the off-season for the lakers was earl clark
GilmoreFan
Banned User
Posts: 1,042
And1: 2
Joined: May 30, 2011
Location: Dzra- KG's supporting casts on the Wolves were not similarly bad to anyone of his generation

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#194 » by GilmoreFan » Sun Jul 3, 2011 2:09 am

I had them tied before MJ voted, but I don't remember if Doc MJ's vote was counted earlier. Jeff's vote I discounted obviously. I'll go back and check, but realgm is being problematically slow right now, so you may be better served checking yourself.
Sedale Threatt
RealGM
Posts: 51,098
And1: 45,546
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
Location: Clearing space in the trophy case.

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#195 » by Sedale Threatt » Sun Jul 3, 2011 2:43 am

Vote: Kareem
Nominate: KG
User avatar
Dr Positivity
RealGM
Posts: 62,863
And1: 16,408
Joined: Apr 29, 2009
       

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#196 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jul 3, 2011 2:52 am

I get the apprehension over like, the NBA in 1958 and 1960 and whether Bill's impact against a lot of players who wouldn't make the NBA today, should count

My biggest argument is look at 1968 and 1969. How much of an athletic and size disadvantage was the competition in those years than the next 15? I don't think it was a huge difference. Frankly expansion and the ABA arguably made the early 70s the weakest crop of "modern NBA" type players of the 69-83 range, especially considering the ABA thrived on flashy athletes. The 69 Celtics beat the 69 Sixers, Knicks and Lakers to win the title. All 3 in my opinion, are full of players who'd be fine translating to today's game physically, let alone Kareem's era. Cunningham/Walker/Greer/Jackson/Clark/Wali, Frazier/Reed/Debusschere/Bradley/Barnett, West/Baylor/Wilt - those are not Bob Pettit's 57 WhiteHawks. They're teams with size and speed and athleticism that are much like the good teams the last 40 years nobody doubts. And that's why nobody ever doubts the 1970 or 1973 Knicks holding up today even though they won the title literally the year after Bill Russell's dynasty ended, nor the 1971 Bucks or 1972 Lakers, even though both actually had it easier athletic competition wise than the 69 Celtics, in my opinion. The only reason the Celtics are doubted more than say the 1970 Knicks, is Bill Russell
Liberate The Zoomers
User avatar
Dr Positivity
RealGM
Posts: 62,863
And1: 16,408
Joined: Apr 29, 2009
       

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#197 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jul 3, 2011 3:17 am

By the way, why do I feel like the 69 Celtics-Knicks ECF is the most underrated legendary series ever even though I haven't watched any of it. How epic is that matchup - the new Knicks (who played at a 63 W pace post Debusschere trade) vs the old Celtics, two of the all time defense, rebounding and team/heart/sweat/intensity over the individual teams intersecting, Boston vs New York, every game is 10 pts or less margin and Boston's 2 swing wins are each by 1 pt. I'd love to get a JB download link for some of those games
Liberate The Zoomers
User avatar
Dipper 13
Starter
Posts: 2,276
And1: 1,439
Joined: Aug 23, 2010

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#198 » by Dipper 13 » Sun Jul 3, 2011 3:28 am

69 Celtics-Knicks ECFs


4:45 mark


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA5eChhcv1U[/youtube]
User avatar
Baller 24
RealGM
Posts: 16,637
And1: 19
Joined: Feb 11, 2006

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#199 » by Baller 24 » Sun Jul 3, 2011 3:49 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:By the way, why do I feel like the 69 Celtics-Knicks ECF is the most underrated legendary series ever even though I haven't watched any of it. How epic is that matchup - the new Knicks (who played at a 63 W pace post Debusschere trade) vs the old Celtics, two of the all time defense, rebounding and team/heart/sweat/intensity over the individual teams intersecting, Boston vs New York, every game is 10 pts or less margin and Boston's 2 swing wins are each by 1 pt. I'd love to get a JB download link for some of those games


I'm guessing your vote is Russell?

EDIT: Also include a nomination, I saw a post from your earlier, but it didn't have a primary vote and nomination. I don't think anyone else counted it either officially. You will be the tie breaker if you decide within the next 10 minutes.
dockingsched wrote: the biggest loss of the off-season for the lakers was earl clark
User avatar
Baller 24
RealGM
Posts: 16,637
And1: 19
Joined: Feb 11, 2006

Re: RGM Top 100 Vote Thread - #2 

Post#200 » by Baller 24 » Sun Jul 3, 2011 4:09 am

Well the deadlines passed, and it's only fair. This is what I've got a tally of so far:

Russell-12
Kareem-12
Wilt-1

Moses-7
KG-5
Karl Malone-6
West-4
LeBron-1
Oscar-2

Moses Malone wins, but we're at a tie.
dockingsched wrote: the biggest loss of the off-season for the lakers was earl clark

Return to Player Comparisons