RealGM Top 100 List #7

[penbeast0]

You dont consistently average 10-12 rebounds and close to 3 blocks by not trying on defense.

On a per minute basis, 34Dayz, may I introduce you to JaVale McGee?

[lorak]

(ThaRegul8r and Doctor MJ so far didn't nominate anyone; TMACFORMVP nominated but didn't vote)

Probably just missed it, but I put in an official vote for Shaq earlier in the same post with the Robinson nomination.

Ok, my bad.
So for now we have:

Shaq 9
Duncan 8
Hakeem 4
KB 2


and
LJ 7
Mikan 6
Barkley 5
Robinson 2
Dirk 1

But as penbeast0s noted still some active posters (for example Sedale Threatt) didn't vote so it should be very close till the end.

[34Dayz]

You dont consistently average 10-12 rebounds and close to 3 blocks by not trying on defense.

On a per minute basis, 34Dayz, may I introduce you to JaVale McGee?

Thats idiotic, there is no comparison between someone "who could average something" to someone who actually "did average it"

[pancakes3]

how about i submit that he tried on defense but he didn't try hard enough, and his "try" just wasn't good enough (to be the 7th greatest player of all time).

[34Dayz]

how about i submit that he tried on defense but he didn't try hard enough, and his "try" just wasn't good enough (to be the 7th greatest player of all time).

Shaq was actually a great team defender and one of the best in the league at deterring dribble penetration, really the only flaw in his defense from 93-03 was his PNR defense. Is it fair to call him a bad defender because he wasnt above average in one facet of it? no it is not.

Shaq's defensive impact was actually quite similar to Duncans from 93-03 anyone who actually watched them both in that time period would probably agree.

Hakeem was a level above but the difference was not so huge that it outweighed Shaq's dominance on the offensive end of the floor coupled with his intangibles.

The whole myth that Shaq was somehow a subpar defender in his Young/Prime years saddens me and absolutely no one ever critisized him for it (outside of his PNR defense) during that time period.

outside of defensive specialists like Wallace/Mutumbo and Hakeem (although he was not a specialist) Shaq's defensive impact was one of the best in the league at his position on the same tier as Duncans if maybe just a bit below it due to Duncans superior consistency.

There is a reason why I would say the majority of people consider Shaq better then Hakeem and Duncan (not all of them) and that was because overall he was the better player when you compared their oncourt impact. Certainly from 99-03 Shaq was generally considered a Tier above Duncan and I would say he basically played Prime Hakeem to a wash as a youngin so is it hard to believe that Prime Shaq would have a similar advantage over Hakeem.. not for me it isnt.

[Baller 24]

1) If Bryant is considered on par with Bird as a facilitator, than he's clearly better than or on par with LeBron James, and we all know that isn't remotely close.

2) We've been discussing a debate mainly between O'Neal & Olajuwon, but Duncan looks like he's sneaked his way into 2nd and almost tied up with O'Neal. Anyone make any strong cases for TD?

[34Dayz]

If Bryant is considered on par with Bird as a facilitator, than he's clearly better than or on par with LeBron James, and we all know that isn't remotely close.

One thing to consider here.

Lebron James, DWade, and Larry Bird have all had seasons where they have averaged 7-8 APG.

Even TMac has one season close to 7.

Kobe's peak Assist seasons clocked in just under 6APG and the rest are all firmly between 4-5.4 and I believe half of his career seasons are below 5.

I do believe Kobe has passing ability but I think its a Tier below those guys I listed above.

Also in those same seasons Lebron and Wade were above 30PPG and Bird was around 28PPG so its not like they weren't also shouldering the scoring load aswell.

[pancakes3]

never mind the fact that i don't think you're [34Dayz] eligible to vote, i fear you're poisoning the well with your qualitative declarations.

Shaq was actually a great team defender and one of the best in the league at deterring dribble penetration

i guess that's why AI dropped 48 on them in game 1 circa 2001, tony parker had his coming out party in '03, and chauncey billups ended up shooting more free throws than Kobe in '04. or even as a team the 3peat lakers were always somewhere in the middle in terms of FTA allowed.

Shaq's defensive impact was actually quite similar to Duncans from 93-03 anyone who actually watched them both in that time period would probably agree.

except for of course everyone in this forum who actually watched them and doesn't agree

Hakeem was a level above but the difference was not so huge that it outweighed Shaq's dominance on the offensive end of the floor coupled with his intangibles.

intangibles such as... missing 25 games a season, feuding with teammates and management, playing his way back into shape instead of showing up ready to go, etc?

The whole myth that Shaq was somehow a subpar defender in his Young/Prime years saddens me and absolutely no one ever critisized him for it (outside of his PNR defense) during that time period.

except of course for all the people who vote on all-d teams that didn't vote for Shaq.

outside of defensive specialists like Wallace/Mutumbo and Hakeem (although he was not a specialist) Shaq's defensive impact was one of the best in the league at his position on the same tier as Duncans if maybe just a bit below it due to Duncans superior consistency.

and Ewing, Drob, 'Zo, Oakley... and 8 Centers right there. IN HIS ERA. DEFENSIVELY SPEAKING. NOT COUNTING KG, DWIGHT, OR PIPPEN WITH THE BLAZERS. and somehow his defensive impact is "tier 1" ?

There is a reason why I would say the majority of people consider Shaq better then Hakeem and Duncan (not all of them) and that was because overall he was the better player when you compared their oncourt impact. Certainly from 99-03 Shaq was generally considered a Tier above Duncan and I would say he basically played Prime Hakeem to a wash as a youngin so is it hard to believe that Prime Shaq would have a similar advantage over Hakeem.. not for me it isnt.

well... scratch 03 since timmy walked away with all sorts of hardware that season. you're essentially talking about the 3peat seasons where Shaq>Duncan. sure. I'll give you that. then what? a first half career of tantalizingly almost-there, yet failed expectations and a tail half career of a steady descent into obscurity? an all-time great scorer, no doubt, but a proven lazy defender and conspicuously light list of accolades you'd expect from a GOAT center: 0 Rebounding titles, 0 DPOYs, 0 1st team all-d teams (three 2nd teams during the threepeat), and only 1 MVP over a course of 18 seasons,

[Baller 24]

One thing to consider here.

Lebron James, DWade, and Larry Bird have all had seasons where they have averaged 7-8 APG.

Even TMac has one season close to 7.

Kobe's peak Assist seasons clocked in just under 6APG and the rest are all firmly between 4-5.4 and I believe half of his career seasons are below 5.

I do believe Kobe has passing ability but I think its a Tier below those guys I listed above.

Also in those same seasons Lebron and Wade were above 30PPG and Bird was around 28PPG so its not like they weren't also shouldering the scoring load aswell.

Yes, McGrady's role was evolved greatly in terms of a role as a facilitator once he joined the Rockets. In terms of having a scoring load, just take LeBron James into example, he's had consistent seasons of 27+ PPG and 6/7APG+ seasons, it's incredibly hard, especially in '10 where he was doing 30/8.6/7rpg while playing elite defense at the same time.

[34Dayz]

The only one poisoning the well here is you with your obvious hate for Oneal.. its sad really.

Like I said anyone who watched Shaq from 93-03 would admit he had a similar impact on the defensive end of the floor when compared with Duncan. Please do not assume that everyone on this forum shares your opinion on these matters because they don't.

In Shaq's younger year's and during his Prime the only non defensive specialists at his position that were greater defensively were probably just Hakeem and Mourning. In terms of overall defensive Impact I have Shaq and Duncan on the same Tier, however Duncan was more consistent so I do have him slightly ahead of Shaq in this regard but not enough so to put him a Tier above the man.

Shaq was good enough offensively that not being the absolute best defender at his position should not knock him down in the rankings he was still consistently one of the best defensive centers/anchors in the league.

[MacGill]

Question, where has Tsherkin been? I would have thought he'd be all over these threads?

[Baller 24]

Shaq and Duncan faced each other a total of 5 times in the playoffs from '99 to '04. Shaq (not Bryant) won 3 of the playoff series ('01, '02, '04), while Duncan won 2 ('99, '03). Duncan in those elimination games or series clinching games had an average of the following:

27.8 PPG, 14.6 RPG, 3 APG, 2.2 BPG, FG 56%

Shaq in those following elimination games or series clinching games had an average of the following:

26.2 PPG, 12.8 PPG, 1.6 APG, 3.4 BPG, FG 52%

If we're going to come to the conclusion that Olajuwon and O'Neal played on par with each other in the '95 finals, but it was the supporting casts that made the difference in terms of how well they played, and how superior one cast was to another, then can't we conclude the same case for Duncan? They're clearly playing on par with each other in the elimination/series clinching games. And you can clearly look at '03 and say that team overachieved.

[34Dayz]

Interesting post Baller... I never really thought to look at it that way.

I always felt Shaq was a Tier above everyone in the league from 99-03.. but perhaps it was closer then I previously thought Prime Duncan was very very good.

Still I think its more logical to compare the entire series as opposed to just the clinching games.

Obviously their play over the entire series would be relevant don't you think?

I have reviewed this before and I think generally Shaq put up better stats when they met up in the PS.. not always but I think in the majority of the series he did and in 04 pretty significantly.

[Vinsanity420]

One thing to consider here.

Lebron James, DWade, and Larry Bird have all had seasons where they have averaged 7-8 APG.

Even TMac has one season close to 7.

Kobe's peak Assist seasons clocked in just under 6APG and the rest are all firmly between 4-5.4 and I believe half of his career seasons are below 5.

I do believe Kobe has passing ability but I think its a Tier below those guys I listed above.

Also in those same seasons Lebron and Wade were above 30PPG and Bird was around 28PPG so its not like they weren't also shouldering the scoring load aswell.

Kobe played in the triple post/triangle offense for most of his career - you can't really average more than 7 assists in that system ( Pippen maxed out at 7), since the system relies mostly on hockey assists. You need to make two passes to hit the open shooter or cutter at the correct angle. It's a two pass-away offense. It's no coincidence that his highest recorded assist season comes when he didn't play in the triangle offense.

Elgee recorded a stat called opportunities created

Besides scoring, the major contribution to a basketball offense is playmaking. Or, more specifically, the ability to draw extra defenders away from their assignments. As a measure of how well a player does this, assists leave something to be desired; they are only tallied when a pass is made to a player who scores, regardless of how helpful the pass was. Which is why we need a way to detect who creates open shots for teammates by drawing extra defensive pressure. For that, I use something I call “Opportunities Created.”

http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/upl ... ers-oc.jpg

That's a link of the 2010 playoffs - you see that Kobe was elite in a decent sample size of 1700 possessions - certainly not an entire tier below Wade or LeBron.

[34Dayz]

Perhaps your right and the system had something to do with it, however if that's the case why do you think his APG rate only went up by .5-1 during that season he played outside the triangle? Do you think it was because he was unaccustomed to it?

Still he definitely has skill as a passer I just felt it wasn't on the same Tier as certain other guards that I listed already.. perhaps the difference is less then I think its hard to quantify.

[penbeast0]

Pancakes and 34Dayz, do not turn this into a pissing contest. Agree to disagree but everyone can make their own judgments and will. Point out the errors but without the comments about each other.

[Vinsanity420]

Perhaps your right and the system had something to do with it, however if that's the case why do you think his APG rate only went up by .5-1 during that season he played outside the triangle? Do you think it was because he was unaccustomed to it? Still he definitly has skill as a passer I just felt it wasnt on the same Tier as certain other guards that I listed already.. perhaps the difference is less then I think its hard to quantify.

He's probably a 6 assist player outside of the tri. One thing to note though - he started thinking team first significantly more after 06. You compare his earlier play to his later play and you see that he was trying to work within the flow of the offense much more in comparison to his earlier days.

But you're right - passing is difficult to quantify.

[Baller 24]

Interesting post Baller... I never really thought to look at it that way.

I always felt Shaq was a Tier above everyone in the league from 99-03.. but perhaps it was closer then I previously thought Prime Duncan was very very good.

Still I think its more logical to compare the entire series as opposed to just the clinching games.

Obviously their play over the entire series would be relevant don't you think?

I have reviewed this before and I think generally Shaq put up better stats when they met up in the PS.. not always but I think in the majority of the series he did and in 04 pretty significantly.

I was doing series clinching/elimination games because the numbers really show the pressure the two play up to in favor of closing the series. Anyway, here are the numbers of when the two met in 5 different playoff series against each other:

Duncan:

25.9 PPG, 12.8 RPG, 4.0 APG, 2.7 BPG, FG 47%

Shaq:

23.9 PPG,13.3 RPG, 2.3 APG, 2.4 BPG, FG 53%

It's obviously very very close. From '99 to '04, Shaq has 3 championships, 1 MVP (You can say 2 if '01 is considered as robbed), 3 Finals MVPs. Duncan had 2 MVPs, 2 championships, and 2 Finals MVPs. Both had very dominant playoff runs -- '01 & '99, the difference is the 1 championship, while you can also favor Duncan stating he anchored a better defense with an inferior amount of talent compared that of Shaq's.

[Shaqsquatch]

I have a question. A poster listed in detail all the tangible things defensive centers are supposed to do in terms of team defense. Seeing as how Duncan during the "ring" years always had another 7 footer on the court with him with identical defensive responsibilities, my question is how in the world do you go about seperating Duncan's team defense contribution from D-Robs or Rasho or Nzar's outside of blocks and rebounds. Or are you just content to award Duncan 90 percent of the credit?
As I mentioned before - when Duncan shows hard on the pick and roll - the opposing team cant simply go baseline because there was another 7 foot defensive minded anchor always near the basket. That makes a huge difference stat wise over time I would think. Imagine what Shaq's team defense would be like if showed on the pick and roll - and had Dwight Howard still under the basket. Imagine again D howard getting stiffed on the credit because of the position he played was stacked (D-Rob)while Shaq getting all the credit because of the position he played was lacking competition(Duncan) - allowing him to rack up accolades. Giving Duncan near total credit for the Spurs awsome team defense stats and success when they are inseperately intertwined seems wrong.

[34Dayz]

Hmm.. that is closer then I thought but you also have to take into consideration how they performed against other opponents and the fact that SA's post defense was superior to LA's.

Would Duncan have produced aswell going against a defensive front line as good as his own?

Shaq was very good defensively especially in the early 00's but he never had a partner like DRob with him to try and slowdown Duncan with.