RealGM Top 100 List #10

[tclg]

Garnet was also super high in MVP voting in 08. He was very clearly the driving force behind the celtics that year

[NO-KG-AI]

To anyone questioning if Garnett was the best player in the '08 Celtics, there really isn't a question about it, pretty much all objective evidence points to it as yes, he most certainly was.

For the season he was for sure. In the playoffs though Magic Johnson always for some reason says Pierce was the best player for the entire playoffs.

1) Pierce played worse in the playoffs than during the season. His numbers went down, despite playing about 3 more minutes. (to be fair, his PPG went up by .1, despite taking one more shot).

2) Magic Johnson is an idiot

3) Pierce wasn't even the top wing during those playoffs, not even close to be honest, he was terrible for a lot more games than he was great.

4) Garnett's points and rebounds rose, as did his 4th quarter scoring(where he outplayed Pierce)

5)To even make up for the massive edge KG has defensively, I'd think Pierce would need to outscore Garnett by alot of points. KG led in scoring, clutch scoring, 4th quarter scoring, whatever you want to point to.

6) Magic Johnson is an idiot

7) Kg's actual accolades(3rd in MVP voting, DPOY, biggest turnaround in history, ring) did less for his legacy than the fact that most people flat out just had to admit they were wrong about his impact, and that they underestimated how good he was in Minnesota, and it led to a lot more KG research.

edit: Magic Johnson is an idiot.

[Baller 24]

For the season he was for sure. In the playoffs though Magic Johnson always for some reason says Pierce was the best player for the entire playoffs.

Am I missing something here? Are you saying Magic Johnson thinks for you now and to disregard all objective evidence? Look at their overall play-off statistics, he's still better, by a good margin too.

[NO-KG-AI]

And his vote counts as much as everyone else. Crazy.

[lorak]

And his vote counts as much as everyone else. Crazy.

Yeah.
BTW, wouldn't it be great to create 12 men roster from 12 best realGM posters and let them discuss and create their own top 100? TLAF, tsherkin, ElGee, mysticbb, penbeast0, Chicago76, drza, Doctor MJ, fatal, ThaRegul8r and Bastillon. I would love to see something like that.

[Dr Positivity]

lol @ bastillion sneaking on there

[lorak]

I know, I know, he had very bad temper, hard character, but he definitely knows the game and was doing great researches.

[Laimbeer]

lol @ bastillion sneaking on there

[An Unbiased Fan]

What's everyone's take on the PG cluster coming up for nomination?

Stockton
Isiah
Frazier
Kidd
Payton
Nash
Cousy

[NO-KG-AI]

What's everyone's take on the PG cluster coming up for nomination?

Stockton
Isiah
Frazier
Kidd
Payton
Nash
Cousy

That's going to be a mess... IMO.

[colts18]

I don't see how Garnett is ahead of Karl Malone. I'll get into that in the next thread when it's relevant but I don't really see an argument other than 1 year peak. Garnett is 34 and is pretty much done. Karl Malone won an MVP when he was older than Garnett currently is. Malone had 2 top 5, 3 top 10 MVP finishes and 3 All-NBA seasons after age 34. 2003 and 2004 Karl Malone are basically close to the equivalent of current KG. That tells what you need to know.

[JordansBulls]

For the season he was for sure. In the playoffs though Magic Johnson always for some reason says Pierce was the best player for the entire playoffs.

Am I missing something here? Are you saying Magic Johnson thinks for you now and to disregard all objective evidence? Look at their overall play-off statistics, he's still better, by a good margin too.

Oh I'm not saying Pierce was the best player on the team that year. I had Garnett #2 on my list for the year that season on the Realgm POY. I'm just saying what other analysts have said.

[Laimbeer]

What's everyone's take on the PG cluster coming up for nomination?

Stockton
Isiah
Frazier
Kidd
Payton
Nash
Cousy

For me, Payton and Kidd never really distinguished themselves. They were really good for a long time, but the other guys have signature accomplishments.

Stockton - Career leader in two major statistics
Isiah - two titles as the guy, franchise maker
Frazier - two titles
Nash - two MVPs
Cousy - revolutionary, numerous titles, dominated his position in a Magic type fashion

[Baller 24]

Anyone putting Stockton at the top of the list is clearly valuing career accomplishments way too much. I personally don't even have him in the top 3 of the PGs listed.

[penbeast0]

Frazier -- titles, scoring, defense, clutch, the whole package, the cream of the next level crop behind West and Oscar

Payton -- less efficient than Frazier but with even more aggressive defense and great all around play

Stockton -- best playmaker, tied for most efficient with Nash, tough nasty defense, ironman

Those would be my first three choices though after Frazier it gets pretty interesting . . . and Kidd is going to be in the mix around where Nash is too. Cousy was the most dominant but it was an Allen Iverson like dominance with inefficient high scoring and questionable defense though his playmaking was a decade ahead of his time at least.

[Dr Positivity]

What's everyone's take on the PG cluster coming up for nomination?

Stockton
Isiah
Frazier
Kidd
Payton
Nash
Cousy

My quickglance rankings

1. Stockton - I know, not a perfect resume, but does most of the things you want in a supporting PG, good d, and plays forever in his star prime - which is especially important vs a Nash or Frazier

2. Nash - Highest peak of the group IMO and has now played 7 years in his Phoenix rosen form (wow, my life is going by quickly) which is not a terrible number, plus he's still an excellent player in Dallas

3. Isiah - Big impact on teammates, has the success credentials, did what those Detroit teams needed, big game playoff guy

4. Kidd
5. Payton - I know, Kidd has worse scoring ability, but give me the amazing passer and makes teammates better guy in Kidd over the ball pounder in Payton, though to GP's credit the Sonics offenses always put up good ORTGs

6. Frazier - Is at too much of a longevity weakness for me to put him higher.

7. Cousy - Replaces Mikan as the hardest guy to rank, I'm probably not thinking about him until the 30s though

[ElGee]

Wanted to share the In/Out runs I currently have in my library. I'm planning on adding about 30 older players (pre 1986) throughout the project, so if anyone wants someone I don't get to, let me know their dates of injuries and I'll add them. Ultimately, this will be a sortable blog post, but in the meantime I'll use alphabetical order for readability. Apologies for the crudeness.

These numbers are subject to the same issues as any +/- family, although I find them interesting because they do answer the question "so how did the team fare without him?" It's a question of situational value, but value is often tied to impact and impact tied to value, despite being slightly different things. (Of course, there is the occasional "they played the 10 worst teams in the league (08 Celtics?)," or "Vince Carter AND Jason Kidd were both injured (05 Nets?)."

From left to read, it reads: player - year - (missed games on team) - net difference in lineup - to - team MOV while in lineup. Bolded seasons are +10 or better. Red seasons are negatives.

Allen 2007 (27g) 3.8 to -1.7
Allen 2002 (13g) 1.8 to 0.1
Allen 2004 (26g) 1.7 to -0.1
Barkey 1997 (29g) 3.4 to 5.7
Barkey 1995 (14g) 0.1 to 3.9
Barkley 1994 (17g) 7.8 to 6.5
Barkley 1996 (11g) 4.9 to 1.0
Barkley 1987 (14g) 2.9 to 0.3
Barkley 1991 (15g) 1.2 to 0.0
Billups 2007 (12g) 3.3 to 4.6
Bird 1991 (22g) 8.0 to 8.0
Bird 1992 (22g) 3.5 to 4.5
Dantley 1988 (13g) -2.0 to 4.9
Drexler 1990 (9g) 8.3 to 7.2
Drexler 1996 (30g) 1.4 to 0.5
Drexler 1994 (18g) 0.4 to 2.6
Drexler 1993 (33g) -1.0 to 2.7
Duncan 2005 (10g) 11.2 to 10.0
Duncan 2004-05 (29g) 8.2 to 9.0
Duncan 2004 (13g) 4.7 to 8.0
Duncan 2000 (8g) 0.2 to 6.0
Ewing 1987 (19g) 7.1 to -4.6
Ewing 1994-96 (12g) 5.3 to 4.4
Garnett 06-07 (12g) 11.6 to -1.9
Garnett 2009 (25g) 5.3 to 9.1
Garnett 2010 (13g) 4.6 to 4.4
Garnett 2008 (11g) 1.7 to 10.5
Garnett 2011 (11g) 0.1 to 5.4
Hakeem 1992 (12g) 10.6 to -0.2
Hakeem 1995-96 (20g) 8.9 to 3.0
Hakeem 1986 (14g) 7.3 to 6.5
Hakeem 1995 (10g) 7.3 to 3.0
Hakeem 1991 (26g) 1.7 to 4.0
Hill 2005 (15g) 6.6 to -1.0
Hill 2000 (8g) 6.4 to 2.1
Hill 1995 (12g) -0.3 to -7.3
Isiah 1991 (34g) 1.3 to 3.8
Iverson 2002 (22g) 7.3 to 3.6
Iverson 2001 (11g) 3.7 to 4.8
Iverson 2006 (10g) 3.7 to -1.4
Iverson 2000 (12g) 2.1 to 1.6
Iverson 2004 (34g) -0.8 to -2.8
Jordan 1992-93 (7g) 11.3 to 8.8
Kareem 1975 (17g) 7.7 to 1.7
Kareem 1978 (20g) 5.8 to 4.2
Kidd 2005 (16g) 8.7 to 0.2
Kidd 2004 (15g) 3.6 to 3.2
Kidd 2000 (15g) 2.2 to 5.6
King 1985 (27g) 8.0 to -2.1
KJ 1996 (26g) 4.0 to 1.6
KJ 1993 (33g) 3.7 to 8.2
KJ 1997 (12g) 12.3 to 2.5
KJ 1994 (15g) 7.5 to 6.2
KJ 1990 (8g) 5.5 to 7.6
KJ 1995 (35g) -1.5 to 3.3
Kobe 2004 (17g) 7.2 to 5.4
Kobe 2000 (16g) 4.4 to 9.4
Kobe 2005 (16g) 2.8 to -2.4
Kobe 2006-07 (7g) 2.5 to 1.3
Kobe 2001 (14g) 1.8 to 3.7
Kobe 2010 (9g) -0.5 to 5.1
LeBron 2008+10 (13g) 12.5 to 4.1
Magic 1988 (10g) 10.9 to 7.2
Magic 1989 (5g) 10.4 to 7.8
McHale 1988 (18g) 5.1 to 7.1
McHale 1991 (14g) 4.8 to 6.6
McHale 1986 (13g) 2.6 to 9.9
Moses 1978 (25g) 4.8 to -2.7
Moses 1984 (11g) 2.9 to 2.6
Mourning 1996 (12g) 11.0 to 3.0
Mourning 1994 (22g) 9.0 to 2.2
Mourning 1997 (16g) 0.8 to 5.7
Mourning 1998 (24g) 1.7 to 5.4
Nash 2005-07 (16g) 13.2 to 7.5
Nash 2001 (12g) 6.6 to 5.2
Nash 2009 (8g) 6.3 to 2.5
Odom 2005 (18g) 6.1 to -1.6
Odom 2007 (26g) 5.4 to 1.6
Paul 2010 (37g) 1.8 to -1.6
Paul 2007 (18g) 0.0 to -1.6
Penny 1997 (23g) 10.3 to 2.5
Penny 2000 (22g) 6.4 to 6.9
Pippen 1994 (10g) 4.2 to 3.6
Pippen 1998 (38g) 3.1 to 8.6
Robinson 1992 (14g) 8.0 to 4.7
Rodman 1993 (22g) 8.0 to 0.7
Rodman 1996 (18g) 3.0 to 12.9
Rodman 1997 (27g) 2.8 to 11.7
Rodman 1995 (33g) 1.2 to 6.5
Shaq 2000-01 (11g) 7.7 to 6.5
Shaq 2003 (15g) 7.6 to 3.7
Shaq 2000-02 (25g) 5.7 to 7.0
Shaq 2002 (15g) 5.1 to 8.1
Shaq 1996 (28g) 4.4 to 7.1
Shaq 1998 (28g) 3.5 to 8.7
Shaq 1997 (31g) 2.9 to 5.4
Shaq 2004 (15g) 1.4 to 4.2
Stockton 1998 (18g) 3.4 to 7.3
Wade 2005-06 (12g) 6.2 to 5.7
Wade 2004 (21g) 4.0 to 1.5
Wade 2008 (31g) 3.1 to -7.5
Wade 2007 (31g) 1.5 to -0.4
Wallace 2005 (8g) 7.6 to 4.6
Wallace 2003 (9g) 4.9 to 4.2
Walton 1978 (24g) 13.3 to 10.0
Walton 1977 (17g) 12.6 to 8.4
Webber 1997 (10g) 3.7 to 2.1
Webber 1998 (11g) 3.5 to 1.1
Webber 2002 (28g) 2.6 to 8.5
Webber 2001 (12g) 0.8 to 5.9
Webber 2003 (15g) -1.5 to 6.2
Webber 1995 (28g) -2.4 to -6.4
West 1971 (13g) 10.9 to 4.5
West 1968 (31g) 6.4 to 7.8
West 1969 (21g) 4.9 to 5.4
Wilkins 1993 (11g) 5.9 to -0.1
Wilkins 1992 (40g) 2.3 to -0.4
Wilt Phi 1965 (42g) -0.8 to -0.5*
Wilt SF 1965 (44g) 3.1 to -4.1*
Wilt 1970 (70g) 0.3 to 2.3

*Trade

[penbeast0]

6. Frazier - Is at too much of a longevity weakness for me to put him higher.

Frazier played 13 years. The last 3 after NY blew him off hardly count as combined they were only a single declining season and his rookie year he didn't get much time so call it a 10 season prime. Of those, he had only one season under 76 games and all 10 were played at at least a marginal all-star level up to an all time great peak.

Compare to Dwyane Wade who is a serious contender for the next nomination, 8 seasons with only 5 healthy v. 14 with 10 healthy. Compare to Isiah or Magic and you only have 12 full seasons to 10 (though their rookie years were better). While Frazier wasn't an ironman who played forever like Stockton, 10 full seasons and a 9 season peak at all-star level isn't Kevin Johnson either.

[Baller 24]

Robinson and Bryant have the lead by a significant margin. I'm going to go ahead and close this out. Next time if a candidate blows out this easily, by 6+ on each we're going to have to just close it out if by the second day that candidate is still leading.

[Laimbeer]

Robinson and Bryant have the lead by a significant margin. I'm going to go ahead and close this out. Next time if a candidate blows out this easily, by 6+ on each we're going to have to just close it out if by the second day that candidate is still leading.

Do we speed up the pace as we go lower?