James Harden is a superstar

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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#181 » by dream_catcher_9 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:10 pm

BmanInBigD wrote:He's having a great year and is a really good, young player. Superstar? Let's talk when he's a #1 option for a good team putting up anything CLOSE to those efficiency #'s. Easy to shoot a high percentage when you can pick your spots to shoot and are not having defenses game-plan for you. But I would LOVE to have him as a potential second or definitely third option.


wrong on 2 levels. First thing is that teams do gameplan for Harden, especially his PnR game. Second thing is that if it was so easy to do what Harden is doing, why isn't anyone else doing it? ..........
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#182 » by Blame Rasho » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:28 am

Blame Rasho wrote:People throw around the word superstar out way too often, but he has an inpact of legit star. He is a difference maker in the same vain as Manu Ginobili. I rather have him for 30 mins than 35 or 40 mins of some of comparable draft peers like Evans and such.

An underrated ability that most star players don't have is that they sometimes don't know when they aren't being effective at something, but superstar players have that ability.

I really like the comparison to Manu(who is a star but I think has a bigger inpact than his a "star" label) because of that, because even if he has having a bad shooting or handling the ball, he makes it a point to make up for it on the other end of the floor or doing the opposite thing on offense, i.e be a facilitator or be a scorer.

Get me?



Yup... I still agree with what I say...
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#183 » by Jase » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:07 am

RealGM needs more Harden sigs.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#184 » by richboy » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:51 am

dream_catcher_9 wrote:
BmanInBigD wrote:He's having a great year and is a really good, young player. Superstar? Let's talk when he's a #1 option for a good team putting up anything CLOSE to those efficiency #'s. Easy to shoot a high percentage when you can pick your spots to shoot and are not having defenses game-plan for you. But I would LOVE to have him as a potential second or definitely third option.


wrong on 2 levels. First thing is that teams do gameplan for Harden, especially his PnR game. Second thing is that if it was so easy to do what Harden is doing, why isn't anyone else doing it? ..........


Harden plays a good amount of minutes against second teams. What makes you think they game planning. Are you at the meetings?

Actually there are other guys coming off the bench and performing well. Harden gets added attention because his advance numbers are so good. Louis Williams gets 21 ppg per 36 minutes. It isn't as sexy because it doesn't come with the crazy efficiency. The thing is though if I tell Louis Williams to stop taking midrange shots. Only shoot when your wide open. Continue to drive to the rim you be much more efficient. I've changed the shots he is taken but have I changed the player. Could Williams afford to do that on a team that needs him to take tough shots.

That is the thing. Harden's numbers on some level don't scream superstar. The advance stats do. Harden has only taken 11 shots this year from 10-15 feet. Has only taken 33 shots from 16 feet to the 3 point line. Even 3 to 9 feet he shooting 31% from the field. It is pretty much all layups, free throws, or wide open 3s. So if I told Louis Williams stop all that midrange stuff and either go all the way to the rim or shoot the 3. Only shot the 3 when your wide open. Is he a superstar now?

Isn't the reality about Harden that he shows us that we should expect our role players and guys coming off the bench to be really efficient. Since they get to play off the superstar often. At the same time could you really expect a superstar to take 11 shots at 10-15 feet. For pretty much 90% of his 3s to be wide open. People seem to dismiss the fact that he plays 2 of the most difficult guys in the league to cover.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#185 » by dream_catcher_9 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:08 am

richboy wrote:
dream_catcher_9 wrote:
BmanInBigD wrote:He's having a great year and is a really good, young player. Superstar? Let's talk when he's a #1 option for a good team putting up anything CLOSE to those efficiency #'s. Easy to shoot a high percentage when you can pick your spots to shoot and are not having defenses game-plan for you. But I would LOVE to have him as a potential second or definitely third option.


wrong on 2 levels. First thing is that teams do gameplan for Harden, especially his PnR game. Second thing is that if it was so easy to do what Harden is doing, why isn't anyone else doing it? ..........


Harden plays a good amount of minutes against second teams. What makes you think they game planning. Are you at the meetings?

Actually there are other guys coming off the bench and performing well. Harden gets added attention because his advance numbers are so good. Louis Williams gets 21 ppg per 36 minutes. It isn't as sexy because it doesn't come with the crazy efficiency. The thing is though if I tell Louis Williams to stop taking midrange shots. Only shoot when your wide open. Continue to drive to the rim you be much more efficient. I've changed the shots he is taken but have I changed the player. Could Williams afford to do that on a team that needs him to take tough shots.

That is the thing. Harden's numbers on some level don't scream superstar. The advance stats do. Harden has only taken 11 shots this year from 10-15 feet. Has only taken 33 shots from 16 feet to the 3 point line. Even 3 to 9 feet he shooting 31% from the field. It is pretty much all layups, free throws, or wide open 3s. So if I told Louis Williams stop all that midrange stuff and either go all the way to the rim or shoot the 3. Only shot the 3 when your wide open. Is he a superstar now?

Isn't the reality about Harden that he shows us that we should expect our role players and guys coming off the bench to be really efficient. Since they get to play off the superstar often. At the same time could you really expect a superstar to take 11 shots at 10-15 feet. For pretty much 90% of his 3s to be wide open. People seem to dismiss the fact that he plays 2 of the most difficult guys in the league to cover.


I feel like Harden would be super efficient no matter who he played with. There is a reason he was one of the most efficient guards in college, it was because he knows what are good shots and bad shots. I don't think he is a superstar, but he is a star.

as for Lou Williams, he isn't as efficient as Harden because he is not as smart.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#186 » by bbms » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:29 am

dream_catcher_9 wrote:I feel like Harden would be super efficient no matter who he played with. There is a reason he was one of the most efficient guards in college, it was because he knows what are good shots and bad shots. I don't think he is a superstar, but he is a star.

as for Lou Williams, he isn't as efficient as Harden because he is not as smart.

And not as skilled, and not as strong, and not as good finisher.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#187 » by Josephpaul » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:50 am

So the thunder have 3 stars. Lucky!!! No, he is not.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#188 » by Rapcity_11 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:52 am

richboy wrote:
Harden plays a good amount of minutes against second teams. What makes you think they game planning. Are you at the meetings?


Maybe because a Harden PnR is run MANY times a game? (At a very high success rate)

Actually there are other guys coming off the bench and performing well. Harden gets added attention because his advance numbers are so good. Louis Williams gets 21 ppg per 36 minutes. It isn't as sexy because it doesn't come with the crazy efficiency. The thing is though if I tell Louis Williams to stop taking midrange shots. Only shoot when your wide open. Continue to drive to the rim you be much more efficient. I've changed the shots he is taken but have I changed the player. Could Williams afford to do that on a team that needs him to take tough shots.

That is the thing. Harden's numbers on some level don't scream superstar. The advance stats do. Harden has only taken 11 shots this year from 10-15 feet. Has only taken 33 shots from 16 feet to the 3 point line. Even 3 to 9 feet he shooting 31% from the field. It is pretty much all layups, free throws, or wide open 3s. So if I told Louis Williams stop all that midrange stuff and either go all the way to the rim or shoot the 3. Only shot the 3 when your wide open. Is he a superstar now?

Isn't the reality about Harden that he shows us that we should expect our role players and guys coming off the bench to be really efficient. Since they get to play off the superstar often. At the same time could you really expect a superstar to take 11 shots at 10-15 feet. For pretty much 90% of his 3s to be wide open. People seem to dismiss the fact that he plays 2 of the most difficult guys in the league to cover.


Do you even watch Harden play? You seem to just be looking at the stat sheet.

You also have way too low an appreciation for smart play. You think Lou Williams is told to take dumb shots? lol, come on. The NBA doesn't need to be a game of star players isolating and taking contested mid-range jumpers.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#189 » by franktony » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:58 am

Harden went from bust to one of the most promising SGs in the league because of one thing : The FT line.

He stopped jacking mid-range shots (something he is not good at) and started shooting open 3s and driving to the basket getting fouls. That's how his efficiency skyrocketed. He just realized how to play in a smart way using his best strengths.
It took him a while to figure things out, but now he is doing very well.

I've seen a few people claiming Harder is a max player, but i strongly disagree. He just is not a 1st option type of player.
People tend to think that he would destroy the league as a 1st option, but i feel it's exactly the opposite. People would actually realize that carrying the load of team offensively and facing the best perimeters in the league every freaking night is very different than having to face 2nd units coming off the bench without any pressure. Not saying he is not good because he is, but if team overpays for him wondering that Harden would take them to the next level, i can safely say that this team would be extremely disappointed.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#190 » by Rapcity_11 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:03 am

Coming from a Spurs fan, that's surprising. Have you not watched Manu his entire career?

Harden is almost a carbon copy of Ginobili.

By the way, Harden is always playing 30+ mins a games, more than half against starters.

Lastly, looking at Ginobili's hoopdata numbers his mid-range shots attempts are always very low. 3-5 a game between 3-23 feet.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#191 » by fallacy » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:44 am

Harden and Ginobili are exactly the same person, it's terrifying

Harden shots / Ginobili shots

Rim: 3.4 / 2.4
3-9: 1.0 / .5
10-15: .1 / .2
16-23: 1.0 / .9
3pt: 4.9 / 4.2


If you think Harden doesn't shoot midrange, you're in for a surprise if you watch Manu. Manu is actually allergic to midrange shots
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#192 » by richboy » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:33 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:
richboy wrote:
Harden plays a good amount of minutes against second teams. What makes you think they game planning. Are you at the meetings?


Maybe because a Harden PnR is run MANY times a game? (At a very high success rate)

Actually there are other guys coming off the bench and performing well. Harden gets added attention because his advance numbers are so good. Louis Williams gets 21 ppg per 36 minutes. It isn't as sexy because it doesn't come with the crazy efficiency. The thing is though if I tell Louis Williams to stop taking midrange shots. Only shoot when your wide open. Continue to drive to the rim you be much more efficient. I've changed the shots he is taken but have I changed the player. Could Williams afford to do that on a team that needs him to take tough shots.

That is the thing. Harden's numbers on some level don't scream superstar. The advance stats do. Harden has only taken 11 shots this year from 10-15 feet. Has only taken 33 shots from 16 feet to the 3 point line. Even 3 to 9 feet he shooting 31% from the field. It is pretty much all layups, free throws, or wide open 3s. So if I told Louis Williams stop all that midrange stuff and either go all the way to the rim or shoot the 3. Only shot the 3 when your wide open. Is he a superstar now?

Isn't the reality about Harden that he shows us that we should expect our role players and guys coming off the bench to be really efficient. Since they get to play off the superstar often. At the same time could you really expect a superstar to take 11 shots at 10-15 feet. For pretty much 90% of his 3s to be wide open. People seem to dismiss the fact that he plays 2 of the most difficult guys in the league to cover.


Do you even watch Harden play? You seem to just be looking at the stat sheet.

You also have way too low an appreciation for smart play. You think Lou Williams is told to take dumb shots? lol, come on. The NBA doesn't need to be a game of star players isolating and taking contested mid-range jumpers.


Well since I'm a OKC fan. Yes.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#193 » by richboy » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:06 am

There 1 big difference between Manu and Harden. Manu plsys his biggest and is often the Spurs go to player late in the game. Harden is relatively an after thought in late game situations.

When we talk about Harden's minutes against the bench. It isn't all about minutes. It is about production as well and when it comes. Harden has almost as many baskets in the second quarter as he has in quarter 1,3, and 4 combined. The second quarter is the quarter that most teams play there bench the most. It is also when he is most efficient. You compare it to his first quarter numbers he is not very productive and not nearly as efficient. Which is also similar to the third quarter. Then we get to 4th quarter and he isn't asked to do much in close games late. If Harden going to be my star player I need to know why he not productive when he first enters the game. Is he scoring 20 against the Lakers and 12 of them are when Kobe goes to rest.

Plus nobody really talks about. Harden is a ton more productive at SF when Durant is out or at PF than he is at SG. Most of the time he start the second quarter with Jackson, Cook, and him at SF. Why is his PER 29 at SF and under 15 at SG. Still have a lot of questions about Harden before I'm ready to talk about him being a superstar.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#194 » by Rapcity_11 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:10 pm

richboy wrote:There 1 big difference between Manu and Harden. Manu plsys his biggest and is often the Spurs go to player late in the game. Harden is relatively an after thought in late game situations.


For now, absolutely. That has way more to do with team role than ability though.

When we talk about Harden's minutes against the bench. It isn't all about minutes. It is about production as well and when it comes. Harden has almost as many baskets in the second quarter as he has in quarter 1,3, and 4 combined. The second quarter is the quarter that most teams play there bench the most. It is also when he is most efficient. You compare it to his first quarter numbers he is not very productive and not nearly as efficient. Which is also similar to the third quarter. Then we get to 4th quarter and he isn't asked to do much in close games late. If Harden going to be my star player I need to know why he not productive when he first enters the game. Is he scoring 20 against the Lakers and 12 of them are when Kobe goes to rest.


Again, this is entirely related to his role on the team. I don't see how any of that is a negative for Harden. (Or surprising in any way)

Plus nobody really talks about. Harden is a ton more productive at SF when Durant is out or at PF than he is at SG. Most of the time he start the second quarter with Jackson, Cook, and him at SF. Why is his PER 29 at SF and under 15 at SG. Still have a lot of questions about Harden before I'm ready to talk about him being a superstar.


And?

Harden is a combo guard on offense who defends 2's. How 82games breaks up his positioning is irrelevent.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#195 » by bastillon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:05 pm

comments in this thread have been laughable all along. I've been saying for MONTHS Harden is a superstar because of how efficient he is and how much impact he makes on team performance, back in the day people were questioning whether he can maintain that level and were very sceptical that he would. months later, Harden's at 67% TS and ~21 pts36, which is a level NEVER achieved in the history of NBA. but right, some idiots seem to think that the reason for it is that he takes easy shots.

I repeat... the reason for Harden's all-time level efficiency is taking easy shots...

no sh**, it takes a freakin sherlock to find out that you can't have top1 all-time scoring efficiency when you have poor shot selection. I mean I understand I shouldn't insult people or their intelligence but some of you should really read what you're typing before sending that nonsense online.

but the TRUE reason for Harden's offensive supremacy is because he is a full package. Harden plays pick and rolls as well as anybody, surely better than overrated pnr players like LeBron or Rose. Harden is drawing fouls at the rate unseen on any level by a SG in any era (6-7 FTA per 10-11 FGA). this is not some mysterious story about Harden realizing that he can get to the basket. millions of players find that out at some point but you have to look at this in a historical perspective. NOBODY has ever been able to come anywhere near that level. and if you look at the tape, you will easily see that Harden is excellent at forcing the contact, he's actually looking for FTs every time down (unlike most NBA superstars who would rather double pump for scoop layups or shoot floaters).

the second reason is that Harden is elite shooter. he's been shooting 84% FTs for the last 2 years, which is on the level of 90s MJ. he's also shooting about FIVE 3s per36 at 37%, making him one of the best 3pt shooters in the league.

most of the guys you're mentioning don't excell on that many levels, guys like Evans don't excell in any areas actually. if you combine those 2 aspects (foul drawing ability, perimeter shooting) there's not much that can stop you from just GOING OFF on your opponent. if you also have passing skills and decent ballhandling, you're becoming a legit offensive anchor and that's James Harden. you can put Harden with any reliable guys (floor spacers, finishers) and he will deliver offensively.

and yet instead of looking at the tape with attempt of making a detailed analysis, you'd rather settle for freaking raw stats, the same raw stats that seem to think that John Stockton is better than Hakeem, or that Kevin Love is on the level of Tim Duncan, or that Rondo is an elite offensive PG (and yet leads his team to laughable #27 ORTG). until people realize that raw stats are not there to give you a full picture but rather tools for further evaluation, there's no way you can possibly capture a slightest shadow of Harden's impact. but even if you're intellectually limited to using raw stats, consider this:

James Harden shoots 10 times a game. he scores 17 pts with that kind of usage. think about it for a second. think about how efficient that is. think about another perimeter player who comes close to that level. maybe then you will be able to appreciate Harden's floor value. otherwise there's no point in arguing with guys who quote 17/4/3 and think they debunked a great conspiracy theory because they looked up raw stats. those stats are NOT the reason people like me or rapcity will argue for Harden. it's how efficient he gets to those numbers. he's doing it with 2 extremely high usage players in Durant and Westbrook. if you put Monta, Jennings, Evans or another low percentage chucker on that team, with Harden's level usage, they'd produce about 11/3/3 and would make no impact offensively. so when you consider that Harden gets so few shot attemps and YET is able to put up scoring numbers of a 2nd option, only THEN you'll know what I was talking about in this post.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#196 » by C-izMe » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:30 pm

richboy wrote:There 1 big difference between Manu and Harden. Manu plsys his biggest and is often the Spurs go to player late in the game. Harden is relatively an after thought in late game situations.

When we talk about Harden's minutes against the bench. It isn't all about minutes. It is about production as well and when it comes. Harden has almost as many baskets in the second quarter as he has in quarter 1,3, and 4 combined. The second quarter is the quarter that most teams play there bench the most. It is also when he is most efficient. You compare it to his first quarter numbers he is not very productive and not nearly as efficient. Which is also similar to the third quarter. Then we get to 4th quarter and he isn't asked to do much in close games late. If Harden going to be my star player I need to know why he not productive when he first enters the game. Is he scoring 20 against the Lakers and 12 of them are when Kobe goes to rest.

Plus nobody really talks about. Harden is a ton more productive at SF when Durant is out or at PF than he is at SG. Most of the time he start the second quarter with Jackson, Cook, and him at SF. Why is his PER 29 at SF and under 15 at SG. Still have a lot of questions about Harden before I'm ready to talk about him being a superstar.

That Manu/Harden comparison was always dumb for this reason. Well that and the defense Manu was a consistent top 10 perimeter defender and Harden is below average at best. Harden isn't a star and he doesn't have star potential. At best he'll be Manu good offensively and an average defender. An anti Bogut if you will.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#197 » by richboy » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:39 pm

Again, this is entirely related to his role on the team. I don't see how any of that is a negative for Harden. (Or surprising in any way)


If Harden is not nearly as efficient or productive against first units as he is second units that is a big deal.

If your judging someone by a superstar standard. He has a 15 PER at his natural position. That a concern. Harden is not a combo guard. He is a SG that has the ability to handle like a PG. However, his most productive unit for him is when he is in the game at SF. Not sure what you mean how 82 games judge him. In his top 20 5 man units he is clearly the SF in 11 of them.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#198 » by Rapcity_11 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:54 pm

richboy wrote:If Harden is not nearly as efficient or productive against first units as he is second units that is a big deal.


That's mostly because he becomes a spot up shooter next to Westbrook. Although more and more, Brooks is realizing that Harden should handle the ball more with Westbrook off ball.

If your judging someone by a superstar standard. He has a 15 PER at his natural position. That a concern. Harden is not a combo guard. He is a SG that has the ability to handle like a PG. However, his most productive unit for him is when he is in the game at SF. Not sure what you mean how 82 games judge him. In his top 20 5 man units he is clearly the SF in 11 of them.


What makes Harden the SF and Cook the SG?

A SG who has the ability to handle like a PG is a combo guard.

Edit: Where do you get quarter by quarter breakdowns?
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#199 » by C-izMe » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:25 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
richboy wrote:If Harden is not nearly as efficient or productive against first units as he is second units that is a big deal.


That's mostly because he becomes a spot up shooter next to Westbrook. Although more and more, Brooks is realizing that Harden should handle the ball more with Westbrook off ball.

If your judging someone by a superstar standard. He has a 15 PER at his natural position. That a concern. Harden is not a combo guard. He is a SG that has the ability to handle like a PG. However, his most productive unit for him is when he is in the game at SF. Not sure what you mean how 82 games judge him. In his top 20 5 man units he is clearly the SF in 11 of them.


What makes Harden the SF and Cook the SG?

A SG who has the ability to handle like a PG is a combo guard.

Edit: Where do you get quarter by quarter breakdowns?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ar_id=2012

They only have points here but it is the only one I know.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#200 » by ahonui06 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:39 pm

Until Harden gets into a different situation it will be impossible to declare him a superstar. He might draw some defensive attention now, but he still doesn't draw the vast majority of defensive attention like Durant does.

Harden has a high BBIQ on offense and is historically efficient this season, but that doesn't make him a superstar. He's still the 3rd option on OKC. Until he becomes the leader of a franchise and gets the defensive attention, you can't call him a "superstar".

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