Where do you rank Kobe all-time? (poll)

[emotional]

Richboy values stats then turns around and post a subjective opinion.

[Durins Baynes]

He joined in 2003 it says, so I guess he got to witness first hand his expectations for Kobe destroyed in 3 successive years after Shaq left. That was probably enough to turn all the objective fans from his previous media driven hype.

[emotional]

I've been on Realgm since 03. Why did that not occur to me?

[tsherkin]

Less talk about richboy; stay on topic.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Isiah Thomas said something like he would be better than Jordan, Bird, and Magic if they were his height and I am quite sure Isiah was correct. If they all had Bird's foot speed then Bird would be best.

The little guys in the NBA are more impressive athletes than the big guys are but size matters in the NBA.

Should I rank Kobe above the centers because Kobe's athleticism is more impressive even if the Centers are more important for winning championships?

I did not notice anybody putting David Robinson above Kobe but perhaps Robinson should be above Kobe.

Kobe's peak is not that much better than Clyde Drexler's and Dwyane Wade's peaks.

Who would you rather build a championship team around, Gasol and Kobe or Ewing and Starks? If Gasol is greater than Starks and Kobe is greater than Ewing this should not be a close decision as to which pair to build a championship around. If you even have to think about it that means you prefer building around a true defensive center because Gasol is much better than Starks therefore you would be preferring Ewing to Kobe.

Shot blocking might be underrated in "advanced stats" because altered shots can't be measured.

Kobe is not top 10 and might not be top 15.

[Asianiac_24]

Bynum has not been essential to the Lakers success. He just an excuse to why they didn't win or why they think they be better. Putting 2 of the 3 on the floor has not shown much benefit because one of them had Gasol at PF. Not to mention it has hurt Gasol offensively. The increased role of Bynum is a big reason why they started to decline.

Your talking Bynum and the Celtics have either lost there best player or has there best player really injured. Its debatable if the Lakers even needed Bynum. The Celtics were looking like one of the great teams in history when KG was healthy.

Why do I care about a RS game. The Celtics were good enough to have a 19 game winning streak and pretty much look like the dominate team in the league. Watching the Lakers vs the Magic I would have taken my chances that the Celtics would have beaten them. If they had landed home court I would say very little shot of the Lakers winning.

Do you really think the Lakers were a Bynum and Ariza away from beating the Celtics the first time. Honestly that suggest to me your just giving me Laker homer talk. The Lakers weren't even competitive in Boston. The Celtics were better that year.

Game 7 the Lakers dominated the Celtics on the glass. Garnett couldn't grab a rebound with his injuries and they didn't have Perkins. Wallace didn't help at all in what the Celtics needed which was rebounding.

If I find those Kobe and Gasol numbers I will post them. I know Gasol in the regular season and post season had shot higher from the field and was more productive with Kobe not in the game. Honestly Gasol was one of the best offensive big men in the game before Kobe. Why do Kobe fans try to take credit for Gasol success with Kobe.

Bynum has not been essential? Clearly you haven't been watching the Lakers much during the 3 year run. He was our rebounder/enforcer so to speak. He isn't as important as Odom/Gasol or even Ariza, but he certainly was a main piece on the team. "A Bynum and Ariza"? That is 2 of our 5 starters there, and remember when Ariza played briefly in game 4 during the 08 Finals the Lakers DOMINATED Boston. How the Lakers weren't even competitive is beyond me. They were leading in game 1 before Pierce had his dramatic fake come back. The Lakers were 2 points away from tying game 2 and would of won if Leon Powe didn't get a million calls every time in the paint. Game 3 the Lakers won. Game 4 the Lakers blew a HUGE lead that would of made the series even. Game 5 the Lakers won. The only game the Lakers weren't competitive was game 6. Please enlighten me how Ariza AND Bynum wouldn't of made a difference in the first 5 games of the series.

Whether or not Perkins would of been the difference in game 7 is completely subjective, but its laughable to only look at one side of the spectrum. The Lakers had either no Bynum (08), or an injured one (09-10). No Ariza in 2008. Crying about Perkins, who only missed ONE **** game, is just straight up laughable.

[Asianiac_24]

"Lebron could easily become a less shot attempt player because he doesn't get all his value in shooting."

Because Kobe gets all his value in shooting right?

Fact: Dwyane Wade's numbers and efficiency dropped across the board since LeBron. Bosh's numbers dropped across the board and his efficiency is pretty much the same. Wade and Bosh are also in their prime, Nash is nearly 40. Blaming Nash's decline on Kobe while ignoring Wade/Bosh is laughable.

[Reservoirdawgs]

Because Kobe gets all his value in shooting right?

...yes? Where else does Kobe's value come in now? He's very much a negative defensive player...scoring is the only thing he can do now.

[richboy]

Richboy you used to be a pretty solid Kobe supporter in your early years here, what changed who knows.

That should tell you something. I'm not bias against Kobe. It isn't like something happened between us. There was a time that Kobe was getting to much hate and being underrated. Now he has gotten overrated by many. He is a great player. He just not in the top 10 alltime IMO. He has very little argument to me over anyone in the top 10.

My biggest issue with Kobe is people don't hold him accountable. I was a fan of the Lakers before they got Kobe. I've never seen an organization bow down to one player like they have Kobe. Kobe has really turned me off by the fact he is playing on stacked teams and still shooting like he playing on the Bobcats.

It is obvious to me watching games and Kobe statements that he is going into games with the idea of making points and not the points on the scoreboard. I'm talking about trying to make a point about himself as a player. The second i saw Kobe pointing out that people was ranking him at the bottom of the top 10 players in the league I knew he was going to be ultra aggressive as a scorer despite the team talent. Kobe wants to win. He just wants to win on his terms. It wasn't the worst thing when Phil Jackson was around to control him. Now its just a joke.

This next season we are about to see more of the same. Kobe with more to prove. He is determined to prove he can come back faster than anyone. Play better than anyone in his return. He might do them both. For him to do them both I know he not going to let Nash and Gasol run PNR and he play team ball. Kobe is the first to tell you the Lakers is his team which means its going to be his ball.

Because Kobe gets all his value in shooting right?

Fact: Dwyane Wade's numbers and efficiency dropped across the board since LeBron. Bosh's numbers dropped across the board and his efficiency is pretty much the same. Wade and Bosh are also in their prime, Nash is nearly 40. Blaming Nash's decline on Kobe while ignoring Wade/Bosh is laughable. - See more at: posting.php?mode=quote&f=64&p=36894295#sthash.4AkMofgv.dpuf

Dwade is pretty much identical to Lebron. He plays the wing as well as was just as high a usage player as Lebron. No way they were going to be able to do the same thing together. Kobe Bryant is the only high usage big. There no reason why the bigs on the team should have to ask for the ball. They aren't close to high maintenance players that Shaq was. If you can't get Gasol or Howard enough touches who can you play without bumping heads. I'm sure Kobe would love playing with Russell. He probably could get a long playing with Bird.

Yes Kobe gets all his value with his shooting. This isn't about Kobe's other skills. He has other skills. His defense is overrated and he not a special passer but he has other skills he can offer the team. My point was that Kobe can not trust any of his teammates to handle the scoring. He will do it for a game or two and the entire world flips because suddenly Kobe has decided to pass the ball. Kobe self worth and he no question most happy as a player when he is scoring. Lebron has said over and over he is most happy passing to teammates. That will never be Kobe.

The biggest difference between Lebron and Kobe is Lebron plays the game for his teammates. He loves them like there his brother and he gets more happiness from there success than his own. Kobe on the other hand thinks your on the Lakers to support him in his goal to be an all-time great. Players want to play with Lebron because he is fun to play with. Forget run from Bryant. They want him amnestied.

Bynum has not been essential? Clearly you haven't been watching the Lakers much during the 3 year run. He was our rebounder/enforcer so to speak. He isn't as important as Odom/Gasol or even Ariza, but he certainly was a main piece on the team. "A Bynum and Ariza"? That is 2 of our 5 starters there, and remember when Ariza played briefly in game 4 during the 08 Finals the Lakers DOMINATED Boston. How the Lakers weren't even competitive is beyond me. They were leading in game 1 before Pierce had his dramatic fake come back. The Lakers were 2 points away from tying game 2 and would of won if Leon Powe didn't get a million calls every time in the paint. Game 3 the Lakers won. Game 4 the Lakers blew a HUGE lead that would of made the series even. Game 5 the Lakers won. The only game the Lakers weren't competitive was game 6. Please enlighten me how Ariza AND Bynum wouldn't of made a difference in the first 5 games of the series.

Whether or not Perkins would of been the difference in game 7 is completely subjective, but its laughable to only look at one side of the spectrum. The Lakers had either no Bynum (08), or an injured one (09-10). No Ariza in 2008. Crying about Perkins, who only missed ONE **** game, is just straight up laughable.
- See more at: posting.php?mode=quote&f=64&p=36894295#sthash.4AkMofgv.dpuf

No you haven't been watching.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2009/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2010/

The Lakers were not good with Bynum in the game. So why it is assumed that if Bynum was healthy they do better. Bynum being injured likely helped them because they didn't play him more. When Bynum had a bigger role in the playoffs with Kobe and Gasol they were not nearly as good. Destroyed by OKC and Dallas. What has Bynum shown in the playoffs to suggest that the Lakers would be better with him?

Paul Pierce going off is part of the history of that series. It isn't like if Ariza was there that wouldn't have happened.

Yes the Celtics dominated. I was speaking about the games in Boston. Boston had home court and had the league for 120 of the 144 minutes in Boston. Then finished the Lakers with one of the most lopsided games in Finals history. The idea the Lakers were close to winning would have me ask you why you think that? You played a worst Boston team 2 years later. The Lakers had Bynum and a better potential defender in Artest. They also had home court. It took a near act of god to get out of that series. Why should I believe that a worst Laker squad vs a better Celtic team without homecourt was really that close to winning?

Because Bynum didn't make the Lakers better in the playoffs. Andrew Bynum was a -28 plus minus in Game 7 vs the Celtics. The Celtics wish they got more of Bynum. The Lakers were so much better with Odom and Gasol that having a healthy Bynum actually hurts there chances because Phil would have been expected to play him more. If anything 15 minutes of Bynum was more than enough.

The Lakers fell apart as an organization because they dispatched of Odom and replaced Gasol as there top option with Bynum. That was the beginning of the end. I don't see why a healthy Bynum would have added to there team since it didn't do anything for them in the future. In the 011 playoffs the Lakers kicked but with Bynum watching in the playoffs. If he had gotten hurt and instead of him playing most of the minutes he been watching Gasol, Kobe, and Odom likely make another run. Healthy Bynum does not mean better Lakers.

[JLei]

In an alltime list.

He's in the top 11. MJ, Russell, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, Hakeem. Most people have these 11 guys ordered in some way.

How you rank them depends on what you value but anywhere from 8-11 is reasonable.

[Durins Baynes]

It is obvious to me watching games and Kobe statements that he is going into games with the idea of making points and not the points on the scoreboard. I'm talking about trying to make a point about himself as a player.

Understatement of the year. Do you remember that crucial Phoenix playoff game where he tried to make a point by not shooting. Ugh.

[Nairobi]

Now he has gotten overrated by many. He is a great player. He just not in the top 10 alltime IMO. He has very little argument to me over anyone in the top 10

Overrated by what "many", certainly not on this board, as evidenced by this board. And there's no argument to you, because you're just ingoring anything that doesn't suit your bias.

[Asianiac_24]

...yes? Where else does Kobe's value come in now? He's very much a negative defensive player...scoring is the only thing he can do now.

Last time I checked, he did average 6 assists per game last season, which is the highest among SGs correct?

This thread is also about Kobe's whole career, his career wasn't just the last 3 seasons. He was a lot more than just a scorer, he was the facilitator for all 5 of his rings.

[Asianiac_24]

In response to Richboy:

I really don't care if LeBron likes to pass the ball. Dwyane Wade's usage decreased to compensate LeBron's ball dominance. He didn't see an increase in efficiency, it dropped as well as his volume. Normally volume and efficiency are reciprocals of each other. The lesser the volume, the higher the efficiency, but that wasn't the case for either Wade and Bosh. Last time I checked, Bosh was a big man too. Who cares about who players would rather play with? I wouldn't want to play with Jordan either, does that make Jordan a bad player?

Howard had more touches than what he should have. His only touches should be from the pick and roll, but for some reason Howard wanted to be Shaq, only to see him get stripped over and over again. Gasol became a 3 point shooter to space out the floor for Howard, who keeps getting the ball stripped in the post. It was Kobe's idea to put Gasol back in the post, where he became effective again. This was well-documented throughout the whole season.

Ariza wouldn't of shut down Pierce, but Ariza would of been much better than Vladimir Radmanovic. The 2010 Celtics weren't that much worse than the 2008 Celtics. The big 3 as a whole dropped off, but they had a much better Rondo and a lot more chemistry having 3 years under their belt. I'd say Ariza in 09 was better than Artest in 2010 too.

To some extent its true, the Lakers were much much better with Odom and Gasol. I was advocating to trade Bynum and thought he was the odd man out. But given the choice of Bynum or no Bynum? I'd take Bynum 10 times out of 10. The Lakers fell apart in 2011 because Kobe had an off year, no Odom, the bench was pathetic, and Gasol heavily declined.

[richboy]

Last time I checked, he did average 6 assists per game last season, which is the highest among SGs correct?

Getting assist isn't that tough when your the one dominating the basketball and controlling the action. Kobe passing has never been that good in my eyes because it doesn't come naturally. He predetermines possessions and sometimes entire games. Where he goes into the game dominating the ball trying to set up assist.

I really don't care if LeBron likes to pass the ball. Dwyane Wade's usage decreased to compensate LeBron's ball dominance. He didn't see an increase in efficiency, it dropped as well as his volume. Normally volume and efficiency are reciprocals of each other. The lesser the volume, the higher the efficiency, but that wasn't the case for either Wade and Bosh. Last time I checked, Bosh was a big man too. Who cares about who players would rather play with? I wouldn't want to play with Jordan either, does that make Jordan a bad player?

Chris Bosh went from being a number 1 option on a bad team to a number 3. He had one of the highest usage in the league for a big in Toronto. He had very little shot to recreate that with Wade and Bosh. Your missing that. Lebron and Bosh came to Miami. They all take away from each other. They all had to sacrifice stats. The only reason Lebron has had to score more and do more is because of how ineffective Wade has been as his body is breaking down. Are you trying to suggest its Lebron's fault Wade has gotten old with bad legs. Lebron and Bosh when Wade is out have been very good together themselves.

The difference between Michael and Kobe is production. Kobe can play the way he plays but he doesn't produce nearly to the level of Michael Jordan. Like i said its debatable if Kobe is the best offensive player on any title team yet. Nobody would want to play with Michael in part because there pretty much no one in history that a better option than Michael. Kobe has not been a better option. The bigger part of the offense he is the worst the Lakers are as a team.

Howard had more touches than what he should have. His only touches should be from the pick and roll, but for some reason Howard wanted to be Shaq, only to see him get stripped over and over again. Gasol became a 3 point shooter to space out the floor for Howard, who keeps getting the ball stripped in the post. It was Kobe's idea to put Gasol back in the post, where he became effective again. This was well-documented throughout the whole season.

Those arguments are weak because they been used over and over again by Laker fans. They just change the name and give excuses on why Kobe is allowed to be selfish. This year Dwight coming off a bad back struggled in the post. That is fine. I don't even blame that on Kobe. I also don't blame Pau not going in the post on Kobe. However this isn't a 1 year thing. Bynum was very good in the post and getting touches often was an issue. Gasol in the past. Prior to that Shaq. Where he playing Detroit in the finals and can't get the ball from Kobe. For fans there always seems to be a reason why its ok for Kobe to play hero ball.

Ariza wouldn't of shut down Pierce, but Ariza would of been much better than Vladimir Radmanovic. The 2010 Celtics weren't that much worse than the 2008 Celtics. The big 3 as a whole dropped off, but they had a much better Rondo and a lot more chemistry having 3 years under their belt. I'd say Ariza in 09 was better than Artest in 2010 too. -

Rondo being better has yet to make the Celtics better. The Celtics offense has gotten worse as Rondo's role has increased. The Celtics in 08 were a great defensive team with a top tier offense. The Celtics in 010 were barely a top 5 defensive team and was 15th in the league in offense.

Artest was a much better defender on the stronger Pierce. Ariza never defended big strong small forwards that well anyway. Artest made more sense since they knew Melo, Pierce, and Lebron were going to be factors.

I think Ariza would have helped more than Bynum. I don't see just having Bynum as raising the Lakers to another level. I do think that the Lakers playing Bynum more did cost them in the long term more playoff success. It took Gasol to PF and moved Odom to the bench. Then they traded them both for Chris Paul. That gets vetoed. Then they gave Odom away. Which I didn't understand because Jim Buss suppose to be big in advanced stats. The advanced stats said don't bet on Bynum and Odom and Gasol are one of the best 4/5 combinations in the league. The Lakers getting rid of Odom and moving Gasol to PF even more really hurt that team. One of the reasons why I think the Lakers could still be a decent team this year is because Gasol will be back at center. Gasol should never be playing PF. The Lakers should have had Howard play the PFs last year when it was apparent Gasol couldn't guard them.

[microfib4thewin]

The Lakers offense has been terrible since Phil's departure so citing Kobe's assist number doesn't say much. Iverson averaged more assists than Kobe during their prime and the Sixers have been mediocre on offense because the ball is in Iverson's hands all the time and Kobe isn't much different in that regard.

[primecougar]

Since both came into the league at roughly the same time (and age), we can easily compare who was the better player in what year.

96 - KG (Kobe not in the league)
97 - KG
98 - KG
99 - KG
00 - KG
01 - Kobe (due to him stepping up in the playoffs)
02 - KG
03 - KG (best season by Kobe to date, still a clearly better scorer, but KG actually led a comparable offense with Wally and Troy Hudson being his 2nd/3rd options. Minnesota also had the better RS record despite losing to LAL in the playoffs...)
04 - KG (Garnett clearly, his peak coincides with Kobe's craptacular season)
05 - KG (KG still very much in his prime, leads one of the best offenses in the league despite numerous chuckers on it. Kobe's first year without Shaq, manages to lead a good offense - tho' with a more talented cast than KG, but LAL is the worst defensive team in the NBA. Kobe also misses 16 games as well. No contest, KG easily)
06 - Kobe (It is closer than it seems though, but gotta hand it to peak Kobester with the ridiculous offensive load he had to carry, his team was still better than KG's who put forth another very solid season yet again.
07 - Kobe (for more or less the same reasons as above)
08 - KG (This one is though, Kobe was the MVP, but KG won the title and was arguably the real Finals MVP. His new team allowed him to focus more on impacting the defensive end and it clearly showed in a big way, while he still remained a pretty efficient 19 ppg scorer.
09 - Kobe (easily, KG was injured and Kobe won the title)
10 - Kobe
11 - KG (can definitely see an argument for Kobe tho'. Both Boston and Lakers were great but Boston relied on KG anchoring the defense a lot more than LAL did on Bryant's scoring. No doubt the biggest nail in the coffin was Bryant's craptacular playoff display.
12 - KG (sorry Kobe fans but gotta give it to Garnett again. Lakers have fallen off despite still having plenty of talent, Kobe resorts to his chucking ways while KG still mans the best defense in the league and steps up his offensive contribution as well and leads Boston to the ECF averaging 19 (54%TS), 10 rpg, 1.5 bpg
13 - Kobe

Re-count:

KG - 12
Kobe - 6

Even if you throw about 1 or 2 seasons Kobe's way KG still takes the cake and he's been a much more useful contributor than Bryant + you gotta account that Kobe has played a season less than KG while also only accumulating like a 1000 minutes in his rookie year and 2000 in his senior year, KG played 2300 minutes in his rookie year and 3000 in his senior whilst simultaneously being a better player. So yeah, there's the answer for you.

This list isn't biased at all.

Even when Kobe wins MVP, you have Garnett better because kg won the ring

in 2001 when Kobe won the ring and had a great playoffs... Kg still wins
in 2003 when Kobe put 30-6-6 and 2.2 steals with lock down def.... Kg still wins
In 2011/2012 I have no idea how you can say kg was better.

[primecougar]

Wherever Duncan/bird/shaq/wilt are

Only guys that are clearly better than him are Jordan/kaj/magic.

Kobe can go toe to toe with anyone else. If lebron wins 2-3 more rings them he will be part of the 1st group due to his high MVP count

[Mutnt]

This list isn't biased at all.

Even when Kobe wins MVP, you have Garnett better because kg won the ring

in 2001 when Kobe won the ring and had a great playoffs... Kg still wins
in 2003 when Kobe put 30-6-6 and 2.2 steals with lock down def.... Kg still wins
In 2011/2012 I have no idea how you can say kg was better.

1. So MVP tells us who the better player is? I guess Rose was better than Kobe in 2011, huh? KG won the ring, he was the best player on his team that also won more games than Kobe's Lakers. He was the defensive anchor of one of the greatest defensive teams in the modern era, he was an efficient 20 ppg scorer as well to go alongside 10 rpg etc. etc. etc.

2. I gave 2001 to Kobe...

3. 2003 is one of Kobe's best seasons; no doubt, but his selfishness to prove himself as the 1st banana in LA was ultimately a huge step backwards for the Lakers who still had pretty much the same team as in 2002 when they were champs. What changed? Kobe unnecessarily decided to take +4 FGA and it resulted in a worse offense (their defense suffered even more, but that's also intertwined with Kobe being an inefficient dick at the time). Granted, Shaq still got his touches and it kinda went well in the RS, but once the postseason started what does Kobe decide to do? That's right, shoot some more! Do you think it's excusable that Kobe averaged 8 more shots than the reigning Finals MVP? Why was Kobe taking almost 27 shots per game in the playoffs? At 53%TS... WHY? They got slaughtered by Duncan and role players and even Garnett and Minny put up a good fight despite KG playing with the likes of Rasho,Wally,Peeler,Hudson etc.

Meanwhile, Garnett had a dominant 23/14/6 on far less usage (upping that to 27/16/5 in the PS). Don't give me 'lockdown defender' because everyone knows KG brings more defensive value than Kobester ever did. It isn't even comparable, Kobe's calling card is his offense and he only led a slightly better offense than KG that year, despite having one of the most dominant/greatest players on the same team, still in his prime, while KG was playing with trash.

Basically, Kobe has no argument other than raw 30/6/6 in the RS. This is not a bias agenda, it's reality. KG was better that year. Kobe's chucking and hogging didn't do the Lakers any favors.

4. In 2011, Kobe was good in the RS, if he maintained that level of play, I would be comfortable in picking him, but he plummeted down to 23 ppg on 53%TS in the playoffs, he didn't contribute much else either and his defense was pretty much as standardly mediocre as it gets. Granted, Garnett played even worse offensively but at least he gave you great defense and 11 rebounds. I don't know, like I said, I'm not mad if anyone picks Kobe in this year, but he clearly failed to make a significant impact in the areas which his role calls for, while KG was still great defensively and on the glass - which is his primary impact - but sucked epically on offense. Anyway, swing it to Kobe if you like, KG still has a comfortable overall advantage...

5. 2012, this is KG's second best year in Boston, he leads his team to the ECF where he loses in a tight contest against a clearly superior team. What's Kobe doing? He's busy putting up 28 ppg on 53%TS, barely beating the Nuggets with a clearly superior team and then getting absolutely crushed by OKC. At this point, Kobe's an inefficient volume scorer who uses the ball in like 35% of his team's possessions. And no, this isn't him playing with the Smush Parker's and Deaven George's, he still has Bynum, Gasol, Barnes, Sessions, MVP in the lineup, but no, let Kobe take 25 FGA and beat everyone by himself, let others get shots via rebounds.

[Durins Baynes]

Wherever Duncan/bird/shaq/wilt are

Only guys that are clearly better than him are Jordan/kaj/magic.

Kobe can go toe to toe with anyone else. If lebron wins 2-3 more rings them he will be part of the 1st group due to his high MVP count

Despite posts like these, I'm heartened by the poll results, which have 72% taking Kobe from 9-15 (mostly in the 12-15 range), and a further 8% taking Kobe outside the top 15. It's nice to see objectivity winning out.