RealGM Top 100 List #5

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#181 » by penbeast0 » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:21 pm

Spoiler:
GC Pantalones wrote:I'm voting for Magic Johnson.

Basically peak wise I'd take Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan over him but overall those guys were less consistent than Magic.

Magic's prime was 84-91 and he averaged 20/7/12, 62 TS. His playoff averages were 20/7/13, 60 TS.

Duncan's prime was 99-07. In those seasons he averaged 22/12/3, 55 TS. His playoff averages were way more impressive across the board (24/13/4, 56 TS).

Hakeem's prime was 86-97. In those seasons he averaged 25/12/3, 56 TS. He is clearly the worst regular season performer of the group but his postseason play (28/12/4, 58 TS).

Shaq's prime was 94-05. In those seasons he averaged 27/12/3, 58 TS. His playoff averages were 27/13/3, 57 TS.

Shaq has injury concerns and he clashed with a ton of teammates. Hakeem has underwhelming regular season performances. Duncan was in an amazing situation and he had the least impressive accomplishments of the 4. Magic has longevity concerns.

Duncan has the best late career and Magic has the best early career. Hakeem and Shaq are being considered but IMO they drag behind Magic and Duncan because their negatives are more serious.

Personally I'm thinking of Magic and Duncan and I can't choose one over the other. My tiebreaker was picking who had the most impressive career and Magic (who made 9 Finals and won 5) is the most impressive of the two IMO.


mmm, how is 25/12/3/56% worse than 22/12/3/55% again?


Right now my thinking goes like this:

Eyetest (saw all these guys a lot) - Shaq. He was the most dominant (if not ever, since Wilt anyway); opposing coaches created more gimmick defenses; opposing players had the hardest time stopping him. He's also the most inconsistent. He was sometimes out of shape, sometimes put in less than 100% effort, and his schtick, while a great pleasure for a long time, started to wear thin as he left teams with some nastiness and cheap shots. More importantly, his team defenses were generally mediocre (great in 99-2000, horrific some other years, usually mediocre). You couldn't count on Shaq to anchor your defense the way you could your offense.

Boxscore stats: Hakeem, particularly with his postseason heroics. Better than I remember him prior to 93 (I was pretty clear that David Robinson was better and Ewing close until the 95 playoffs when Hakeem made his bones as the greatest center of his time) and his peak was very close to Shaq's if not better. The hyperbole about his offensive post game being the greatest in NBA history has always turned me off and he was a bit of a whiner early in his career. His supporting cast is underrated; they were role players but excellent ones like SA today, Kenny Smith/Mario Elie/Otis Thorpe were super efficient offensively and, as a trio, not bad defensively (ok, Smith was bad, but Elie was good, and Thorpe solid).

Leadership: Magic. One reason I didn't support Kareem at the 2 (or possibly even the 3) spot is because I thought his teams underperformed a lot prior to Magic and the reason for that, I thought, was Kareem's dissassociation from his teammates. Magic pulled them together and he gets a bonus from me for his charisma; one of the most fun players to watch in the history of the NBA . . . probably THE most fun.

Consistency: Duncan. Great from day 1 in all the key areas. I value big man defense and team play a lot and he epitomizes what a superstar should be. Not statistically up to the level of Shaq or Hakeem but his teams seemed to play better than their talent indicated. How much of that is Duncan and how much is Popovich is hard to separate out. If I credit the lion's share to Duncan (as I did the Celtic's defensive mastery to Russell), then he's my choice here.

For now, I vote for the guy I'd most like to have to win rings . . . Tim Duncan.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#182 » by Gregoire » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:22 pm

PaulieWal wrote:
Gregoire wrote:My vote goes to Tim Duncan. Best resume IMO of players, which didnt voted. Slightly worse peak than Hakeem and Shaq, but more consistent prime, better longevity and less of-court stuff and shortcomings. 4 Championship, intangibles, leadership, two-way impact. All inclusive at elite level.


5 :wink: :)


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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#183 » by colts18 » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:23 pm

4th quarter finals stats for some of the players being discussed

Per 36 minutes:
Shaq: 25-13-3, .568 TS%, +7.3 +/- (this doesn't include his 95 finals where he averaged 11 PPG in the 4th)
LeBron: 22-8-5, .536 TS%, +1.0 +/-
Kobe: 23-4-3, .508 TS%, -4.4 +/-
Duncan: 16-12-3, .470 TS%, +3.1 +/-

Stats in elimination games during their prime:

Player G PTS TRB AST TOV TS% GmSc
LeBron James 7 31 10.1 7.6 5 0.515 21.3
Shaquille O’Neal 13 27.8 11.3 2.5 2.8 0.588 21.2
Tim Duncan 7 27.9 12.7 3 3.4 0.543 21.1
Kobe Bryant 11 24.8 7 3.5 3.4 0.504 15.3


Shaq is by far the most clutch on this list while Duncan and Kobe were the least clutch in these situations.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#184 » by pancakes3 » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:27 pm

Gregoire wrote:My vote goes to Tim Duncan. Best resume IMO of players, which didnt voted. Slightly worse peak than Hakeem and Shaq, but more consistent prime, better longevity and less of-court stuff and shortcomings. 4 Championship, intangibles, leadership, two-way impact. All inclusive at elite level.


I think Magic has the best resume of the guys left. 5 rings, 3 MVP's, and most importantly: 3 finals MVPs. It's that extra finals MVP that really boosts Magic and Shaq over Duncan, Bird, Hakeem, and Kobe.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#185 » by MacGill » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:28 pm

Gregoire wrote:My vote goes to Tim Duncan. Best resume IMO of players, which didnt voted. Slightly worse peak than Hakeem and Shaq, but more consistent prime, better longevity and less of-court stuff and shortcomings. 4 Championship, intangibles, leadership, two-way impact. All inclusive at elite level.



See here is what bothers me....and Gregoire, I am not calling you out here so do not take offense as there are many posters doing this.

With as many comparisons as we have done over the years and very recent, I wish voters would indicate what changed their mind here.

Greg's pre-list.

My top-20 for beginning:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Shaq
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Lebron
9. Magic
10. Hakeem

And what I mean here is the 5-10 should be close, albeit some analysis as to 'why' the vote changed. But everything above is the same information exchanged over the years, multiple multiple times, and yet, Duncan moves up 2 sopts, without even a harp about Bird as well?

Sorry, just ranting....as ultimately the placing doesn't matter but I have seen many do this and aren't articulating 'why' which to me is most important. We have great poster's putting players into the mix being questioned but provide rationale, so this helps. But I am seeing posters just go with the flow if you will and I guess I would just ask to give 'details' as to how you came up with that decision. To me, moving up 2 or down 2 spots means you discovered something new that hadn't been discussed recently. So please share!
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#186 » by Mutnt » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:28 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Agree Pop is great. But what really separates him from a guy like say Rick Carlisle is Tim Duncan. We saw just this year how Rick matched him move for move and frankly outcoached him, but Dirk played poorly and the Spurs just had more talent than Dallas.

Tons of props for how he coaches to the team he has and doesnt force a system on players when it clearly doesnt work, but you still got to have the players and with his particular personality it really helps when the best player in the world is receptive to being coached hard in a way many star players wouldnt.


What? I don't get it. Is your statement referring to this year or in general? How does having Duncan separate him from Carlisle and how exactly did Carlisle 'outcoach' Pop? What's the basis of that claim, because the 8th seeded Dallas managed to push the series to a Game 7 despite never really having a chance of advancing? I didn't see any outcoaching myself.

Also, what does 'you still go to have the players with his particular personality' mean? That is false. Pop doesn't look at players with specific personalities anymore than any other team does. The Spurs bring guys like Diaw, Mills and Danny Green (Diaw = considered lazy, overweight, poor work ethic before joining the Spurs, Mills = a player many weren't sure if he could be a NBA player let alone play meaningful minutes in the playoffs and Green = a journey man who basically played in a sub-par Slovenian club two years ago and didn't do anything before that).

Look, Duncan is a great guy, he has the right attitude, we all know and acknowledge that, but basically acting like Duncan's non-cancerous, mentor-like behavior to his teammates is somehow relative to how Pop coaches his team is a bit absurd.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#187 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:30 pm

drza wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm seeing a trend that is somewhat dominating the conversation in this thread, that I don't think is really that productive to determining how good the players involved are. The trend is the race to minimize support on championship teams to the point that it no longer is realistic nor really helps paint a clear picture. Hakeem in '94 or Duncan in '03 (or Barry in '75 or Dirk in 2011 or now Shaq in 2000, apparently) were all ridiculously awesome. And yes, evaluating the level of support on these teams is a step towards helping gauge how much heavy lifting the star had to do. But that is true only in the extent that it reflects what the star was doing, and only to the extent that the evaluations are somewhat realistic to what actually happened on the court.

Instead, in a lot of the conversation in this thread, the focus seems to be on establishing what criteria (especially reputation-based or minimization of on-court strengths in favor of embellishing weaknesses) can make it seem that the main player was more heroic. So we start ending up with pages of arguments that look like:

"My guy didn't have any All Stars on his team!"

"My guy didn't have any All Stars OR future Hall of Famers!"

"Well, my guy also didn't have a Hall of Fame Coach!"

"Well, this guy didn't have those things either..."

"Yeah, but on his team there was a rookie that would one day be an All Star so he's disqualified..."

I don't know. Maybe it's just me (and if so, I apologize to the room) but I don't think further amplification of that trend is especially helpful here. It gets too myopic on one particular aspect of a set of circumstances, focuses on the circumstances well beyond what accurately paints the picture for the player under consideration, and stifles what could be a rich comparison space for these players.

1994 and 1995 Hakeem were otherworldly in the playoffs. But he wasn't dragging "nothing" to the title. The players on his team fit certain roles (shooting, rebounding, moxie) that fit in perfectly around his transcendence...roles that several would reprise on other successful teams throughout their careers. He was obviously the driving force behind them, the point isn't in any way to minimize that. And there are few in history that could have done something similar. But let's take the accomplishment for what it is, and focus more on how his particular combination of scoring brilliance, defensive everywhere-ness and versatility helped lift the team than on whether or not Rudy T deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. And if we're going to discuss his cast, let's angle it more on what they did and didn't bring to the court for that team than on whether or not they ever received All Star votes.

Similar story with 2003 Duncan. It's funny now, but at the time it was accepted that the Spurs had a good team but a decade later it'd sound like he was out there with nobody. Plus, another context point is that the other contenders for the West throne had major injuries (Webber, Nowitzki and to a lesser extent Kobe) and the East wasn't strong enough to field a credible threat. As some have pointed out, those Spurs were a) driven by Duncan's brilliance but b) (like Hakeem) full of players that fulfilled their roles in such a way that he was able to thrive. David Robinson was old and breaking down...but for half of each game, he was still one of the top defenders in the NBA. Which meant that, for the half of the game that Duncan and Robinson played together each game, they had the foundation of 2 of the best defensive big men in the NBA which formed the backbone for a ridiculous defense. To supplement this, Bruce Bowen in 2003 was a well established plus defender by both acclaim (he was in the 3rd year of 8 straight All Defense nods) and RAPM, and made a fine third on-court presence to lock in the championship level defense. This unit was run by an excellent defensive coach in Popovic, and featured other plus defensive perimeter players in the rotation like Stephen Jackson and (even rookie) Manu Ginobili. This was outstanding and consistent defensive support. Of course, their offense was characterized by spotty inconsistency, but Duncan's sustained brilliance and a cast deep enough that usually one or two other players were contributing solid offensive support on a given game (even if those players differed each time) provided just enough offense to let the defensive backbone and Duncan's transcendance lead to the promised land.

Again, this post isn't to diminish either Olajuwon's or Duncan's accomplishments on those championship teams. Just the opposite, in fact. I would like to see more emphasis on what they accomplished and how, or (as needed) even emphasis on how their cast played as a means to illustrate what the superstar accomplished and how...but I'd love to see less on the resume's of their cast that don't really add that much to the table.

And just for the record:

1994 Olajuwon playoffs: 35.9 pts (57% TS), 13.7 reb, 5.3 asts (4.5 TOs), 5.0 blks, 2.2 stls / 100 poss

2003 Duncan playoffs: 30.6 pts (58% TS), 19.1 reb, 6.6 asts (3.9 TOs), 4.1 blks, 0.8 stls / 100 poss
Also have for Duncan: #2 in PI RAPM in 2003 ( both overall and defense)
One of highest playoffs on/off +/- on a champion on record (+23.1/100 poss) (available since 2001)

:o


Tend to agree. A large portion of the conversation has basically become "who won the most with the least help", and while those are certainly impressive feats, I don't think on its own will always determine who the better player was. Of course it can contribute to an overall analysis / evaluation of a player, but at the end of the day it's just 1 of many factors.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#188 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:32 pm

Agree to disagree then. This is a derailment and I don't wish to continue my part in it.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#189 » by DQuinn1575 » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:38 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
Gregoire wrote:My vote goes to Tim Duncan. Best resume IMO of players, which didnt voted. Slightly worse peak than Hakeem and Shaq, but more consistent prime, better longevity and less of-court stuff and shortcomings. 4 Championship, intangibles, leadership, two-way impact. All inclusive at elite level.


I think Magic has the best resume of the guys left. 5 rings, 3 MVP's, and most importantly: 3 finals MVPs. It's that extra finals MVP that really boosts Magic and Shaq over Duncan, Bird, Hakeem, and Kobe.


One of those Finals MVP is from 1980 where Kareem averaged 33 ppg, and missed game 6 where Magic scored 40 pts. Reportedly the tv network got the voters to change their votes so Magic could get the award on tv.
Even if he did deserve the award, you are basically given him the nod over 5 other players due to 1 game where he scored 42 points.

I really don't think the only reason you should give him the nod is that one game. I would appreciate it if you could state why he should be ahead of Bird and Shaq.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#190 » by microfib4thewin » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:43 pm

Mutnt wrote:I do agree a franchise would rather have Duncan as its 'poster boy' than Shaq, mainly due to Shaq's ego-centric character and off-court shenanigans. However, this stuff about Duncan making Pop is ridiculous. Pop has proven many a times in recent years that he can play at a high level and win even without Duncan stepping foot on the court. Why? Because Pop actually knows what he's doing. There's a reason why most role players who look below average or done thrive in the Spurs system, and no, it's not because of Duncan. No doubt P-Jax and Riles are solid coaches but I've never seen any coach do the things Pop has done. Unless you are Scoot Brooks, it shouldn't be that difficult to establish an offensive system which leeches of the abilities of all-time great talent (not only the Bulls/Lakers, but also 90's Knicks and Heat that Riley coached had a lot of great talent on it). Now, that doesn't mean that Pop had full blown scrubs, but the way his teams pretty much always played to the best of every player's strengths is amazing. It's also important to note that Pop has switched his style, system, roles of players etc. during his tenure and the Spurs didn't skip a beat, while guys like Phil Jackson seemed to always disappear alongside the departing talent of his team.


What exactly did Pop show prior to working with Duncan? He had a miserable campaign in '97, and if you attribute that to intentionally tanking then how does that make the Spurs a model franchise? Before that, he was heading the Spurs FO for three years, and then before that he was an assistant coach in the NBA for four years. All of his head coaching experience before kicking out Bob Hill was from Division III basketball. Pop was someone who needed to mature as a NBA head coach over time, in the beginning of his coaching tenure he was hardly the polished HOF material that people made him out to be. Let's say we don't call the 97 campaign a failure for Pop, where is this good coaching when the Duncan-less Spurs lost to the Suns in 2000? What about getting swept by the 01 Lakers in a historic fashion? Nearly trading Parker on several occasions? The unwillingness to develop young talent and wasted the end of Duncan's prime from 2008-2010? Getting swept by the Suns? Losing to the 8th seed Grizzlies? Losing four straight to the Thunder after a 20 game winning streak? Yes, he did win a title recently, but it took him four years of doing a 180 on the offensive system and seventeen years to win a ring without Duncan playing at the MVP level. Can Pop last this long with your average volatile superstar? Doubtful.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#191 » by E-Balla » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:46 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:I'm voting for Magic Johnson.

Basically peak wise I'd take Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan over him but overall those guys were less consistent than Magic.

Magic's prime was 84-91 and he averaged 20/7/12, 62 TS. His playoff averages were 20/7/13, 60 TS.

Duncan's prime was 99-07. In those seasons he averaged 22/12/3, 55 TS. His playoff averages were way more impressive across the board (24/13/4, 56 TS).

Hakeem's prime was 86-97. In those seasons he averaged 25/12/3, 56 TS. He is clearly the worst regular season performer of the group but his postseason play (28/12/4, 58 TS).

Shaq's prime was 94-05. In those seasons he averaged 27/12/3, 58 TS. His playoff averages were 27/13/3, 57 TS.

Shaq has injury concerns and he clashed with a ton of teammates. Hakeem has underwhelming regular season performances. Duncan was in an amazing situation and he had the least impressive accomplishments of the 4. Magic has longevity concerns.

Duncan has the best late career and Magic has the best early career. Hakeem and Shaq are being considered but IMO they drag behind Magic and Duncan because their negatives are more serious.

Personally I'm thinking of Magic and Duncan and I can't choose one over the other. My tiebreaker was picking who had the most impressive career and Magic (who made 9 Finals and won 5) is the most impressive of the two IMO.[/qoute]

mmm, how is 25/12/3/56% worse than 22/12/3/55% again?

Well it's worse after you take everything into account (like pace and efficiency compared to league average). Duncan for most of his prime was playing in a league where average ORTG was about 104-105. Hakeem was in a league where the average was about 108 and overall he was still less efficient than Duncan. He also has the same usage rate as Tim so it's not like he's not pulling weight.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#192 » by colts18 » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:51 pm

microfib4thewin wrote:What exactly did Pop show prior to working with Duncan? He had a miserable campaign in '97, and if you attribute that to intentionally tanking then how does that make the Spurs a model franchise? Before that, he was heading the Spurs FO for three years, and then before that he was an assistant coach in the NBA for four years. All of his head coaching experience before kicking out Bob Hill was from Division III basketball. Pop was someone who needed to mature as a NBA head coach over time, in the beginning of his coaching tenure he was hardly the polished HOF material that people made him out to be. Let's say we don't call the 97 campaign a failure for Pop, where is this good coaching when the Duncan-less Spurs lost to the Suns in 2000? What about getting swept by the 01 Lakers in a historic fashion? Nearly trading Parker on several occasions? The unwillingness to develop young talent and wasted the end of Duncan's prime from 2008-2010? Getting swept by the Suns? Losing to the 8th seed Grizzlies? Losing four straight to the Thunder after a 20 game winning streak? Yes, he did win a title recently, but it took him four years of doing a 180 on the offensive system and seventeen years to win a ring without Duncan playing at the MVP level. Can Pop last this long with your average volatile superstar? Doubtful.


Pop has had the Spurs as the best Western Conference team in the last 4 years while Duncan has played a reduced role.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#193 » by RayBan-Sematra » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:53 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Shaq has injury concerns and he clashed with a ton of teammates.

A ton of teammates?
Shaq did a fine job building team chemistry in Orlando and he didn't clash with any teammates there. Or if he did it wasn't reported.

In LAL he did clash with Kobe almost from the start.
Personality wise those two were clearly just not compatible at all.
To be fair I do think Shaq tried to make it work at times which is why there were periods of calm prior to 03 where it began to escalate further (Kobe also mellowed out when he got married in 02).
In the end though while I do give Shaq some blame for the environment which was toxic at times there I give much more blame to Kobe, Phil and the management for not firmly addressing the problems and ending it.

Then in Miami he didn't really have trouble with anyone. He did a great job mentoring Wade and really being the vocal/spiritual leader of that team.

I know eventually he and Riles had a falling out but that was when he was past his Prime and I believe it was caused by Rileys frustration over paying him big money and then having him decline after only 2 years.

So really over his Prime he wasn't clashing with many people. Kobe sticks out but Kobe has had plenty of beefs on his own and clearly isn't the easiest personality to get along with on or off the court.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Yeh I meant the 95 Rockets. My mistake

And no, they would not sweep the 2009 Magic. The same Magic who beat a tough 09 Cavs team led by Lebron.

That 95 Rockets team only had a 2.32 SRS

All that that proves that regular-season SRS can be deceiving.
Plus I am not sure it is logical to compare the SRS of teams that are so many years apart.

That Magic team was Dwight + Shard/Hedo.
Houston had Peak Hakeem (who would destroy Dwight) + Drexler + Horry (who was playing like an All-Star) + Elie/Cassell/Smith.

I can't imagine the Dwight led Magic taking a single game from them. Isn't gonna happen.

09 Cavs were just Lebron + roleplayers. Yeah they were a decent team but the 95 Rockets were way better.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#194 » by O_6 » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:56 pm

I am a big Hakeem fan. My very first posts on his board were pro-Hakeem, talking about what a brilliant 2-way player he was especially at this prime. Among all the potential Top 10 candidates on this list, he is easily my personal favorite. His combination of stylistic grace and clutch production is just fantastic. And his peak from '93-'95 was one of the most impressive in league history. You could argue that no one in NBA history has been better at both offense and defense than peak Hakeem. That's certainly a wonderful argument to make in a discussion like this.

I know his playoff scoring was always impressive, but can someone please explain to me why his epic playoff scoring never translated into epic regular season offensive impact?

Ewing vs. Hakeem: '85-'92 (per 100 stats)
Player ------ PPG --- RPG --- APG --- eFG% --- FTr ---- TS% ---- OWS/48
Dream ----- 29.7 --- 16.3 --- 2.8 ---- .513 --- .392 ---- .553 --- .075
Ewing ------ 32.0 --- 13.4 --- 2.9 ---- .530 --- .377 ---- .575 --- .074
Avg. Team Ortg --- Hakeem (15.0) --- Ewing (15.7)

I've heard people claim that Hakeem's offensive impact before '93 was underrated. But was that really the case? Can someone explain to me why Patrick Ewing put up almost identical offensive stats to Hakeem through 1992 despite having worse offensive support? Hell, Ewing's scoring numbers are actually CLEARLY ahead of Hakeem's during this period. In terms of both volume and efficiency.

Ewing is almost never considered a great offensive big outside of his '90 season. Most people actually think that Ewing would be forced to change his offensive game and be less of a volume scorer in the modern era. But if that's the case, than why did he have better scoring numbers than Hakeem through 1992? Isn't volume scoring supposed to be a key aspect of Hakeem's argument? I know people will bring up the fact that Hakeem did better in the playoffs which is true, but why did that not translate into the regular season? Did Hakeem only play up to his competition?

Hakeem vs. Robinson: '90-'96 (per 100 stats)
Player ------ PPG --- RPG --- APG --- eFG% --- FTr ---- TS% ---- OWS/48
Dream ----- 32.5 --- 15.9 --- 4.0 ---- .516 ---- .341 --- .559 --- .080
Admiral ---- 33.9 --- 15.6 --- 4.1 --- .527 ---- .576 --- .592 ---- .150
Avg. Tm ORtg --- Hakeem (13.7) ---- Robinson (9.9)

Everyone always brings up the '95 beatdown that Hakeem put on Robinson. It is arguably the single greatest playoff series by an individual in NBA history. Trust me, I understand what a defining moment that series was in both players' careers. Like I said, I'm a big Hakeem fan and that series was his magnum opus.

But during the 7 years where both players were in their prime, David Robinson was a significantly more productive offensive player in the regular season. He scored on slightly higher volume and was a far more efficient scorer because he consistently attacked the rim more often with his face-up game which led to more free throws.

I know that playoffs matter more than the regular season, but the REGULAR SEASON STILL MATTERS! Especially when we're talking about a 7 year span that covers 574 games. If Prime Hakeem was supposed to be a Shaq-level offensive threat, than why did his regular season offensive production trail David Robinson's by such an insane degree? It's not like Robinson had a much stronger offensive supporting cast, I'd say that his casts were pretty equal to Hakeem's through '96. And yet, his team's offenses were consistently better and his individual statistics were consistently superior by a clear margin.

I love Hakeem. He rose his level of play consistently in the playoffs and his '93/'94 seasons were arguably the most impressive 2-way seasons in NBA history. In terms of pure peak, I think I'd rank Hakeem clearly above Duncan and a right there with Shaq. But this RealGM Top 100 GOAT list is not just about Peak performance, it's about Career performance. And I have some major concerns about Hakeem's offensive performance in the regular season over his career, especially before he hit his offensive prime in '93. He's nowhere near the consistently dominant offensive threat a player like Shaq was.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#195 » by Jim Naismith » Wed Jul 9, 2014 5:56 pm

Warspite wrote:This is the hardest vote for me

Hakeem: Great peak but It takes him 8 yrs to reach it. Lack of team success in the weakest conference era of the NBA.
...
My vote: Larry Bird

He has the GOAT peak (I have no clue what the Shaq fans are thinking that his peak is close to Birds)
Bird plays in the era of SFs. An era in which every yr more than half of the top 50 players are SFs (in a 23 team league).


Here's a measure of the dominance of Bird and (to a lesser extent) Magic. It also shows how short Hakeem's peak is in comparison.

Top 2 MVP
Bird 7
LeBron 6
Magic 5
Duncan 4
Shaq 3
Kobe 2
Hakeem 2

Top 3 MVP
Magic 9
Bird 8
LeBron 7
Duncan 5
Shaq 5
Kobe 5
Hakeem 2
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#196 » by microfib4thewin » Wed Jul 9, 2014 6:04 pm

penbeast0 wrote:mmm, how is 25/12/3/56% worse than 22/12/3/55% again?


86-97 Rockets: 103.3 points allowed per game
98-10 Spurs: 89.5 points allowed per game

If we are going to use per game averages to compare two players I think we should look at points allowed as a part of the context. It's easier to put up better averages when your team also allows more points each game. For these two time periods there was only one pair of seasons where Duncan's team allowed more points than Hakeem's team(2010 Spurs 96.3 1997 Rockets 96.1).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#197 » by RayBan-Sematra » Wed Jul 9, 2014 6:05 pm

penbeast0 wrote:He's also the most inconsistent.

Depends what you mean here.
Shaq was probably the most consistent playoff performer in the Top 10 with the fewest failures in elimination.

More importantly, his team defenses were generally mediocre (great in 99-2000, horrific some other years, usually mediocre). You couldn't count on Shaq to anchor your defense the way you could your offense.

Don't agree.
Shaq usually anchored above average defenses even while missing games and usually not giving a full effort on that end (he reserved that for the playoffs). And no I don't hold that against him because his regular-season winning % in games he played in was absurdly high over his Prime.
When Shaq went all out in the regular-season (00) he easily led the Lakers to the best defense in the league.
I would like to see a chart of how good his playoff defenses were.

93 - 12thdrtg - 11thpts allowed
94 - 15th
95- 13thdrtg
96 - 12th
97 - 8th
98 - 11th
99 - 23rd
00 - 1st
01 - (best defense in the playoffs)
02 - (7th)
03 - 19th
04 - 8th
05 - 6th
06 - 9th
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#198 » by An Unbiased Fan » Wed Jul 9, 2014 6:05 pm

Here's the thing I don't get about the "less support" talk. It seems people focus on 1 or 2 seasons where a star with "less support" wins a title, but.....the many other years where their teams may have under-performed based on "support", are ignored.

Duncan for example,had a great run in 2003, but its like we're supposed to forget 01, 02, 04, 06, 08. Shouldn't the focus be on the totality of what players did in their careers, and not just a 03' run, or 94/95' playoff runs? Isn't that why Russell was over Wilt? The sheer consistency of his impact, that had the Celtics meeting or exceeding expected results nearly every year of his career? Wilt's 1967 run was more epic than any of Russ's, but Russ's 57-69 span was collectively much more than Wilt's 60-73 years in impact..
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#199 » by microfib4thewin » Wed Jul 9, 2014 6:06 pm

colts18 wrote:Pop has had the Spurs as the best Western Conference team in the last 4 years while Duncan has played a reduced role.


That was also after Duncan went through his 13 year prime. I don't see Shaq, Kobe, or KG staying that long. Either they leave first or Pop gets fired first. I can see Dirk staying just like he did with Dallas.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #5 

Post#200 » by An Unbiased Fan » Wed Jul 9, 2014 6:12 pm

RayBan-Sematra wrote:When Shaq went all out in the regular-season (00) he easily led the Lakers to the best defense in the league.

That's nice, but I think the point is that outside of 2000...Shaq never exerted much defensive impact. People rag on Magic/Bird/Barkley for defense, yet Shaq gets a pass because he decided to play one year. Go figure.

Karl Malone did a radio show out here in LA back during the 99 lockout, and said the Utah jazz would pick n roll LA to death in the playoffs because they knew Shaq wouldn't rotate. Anyone who saw those losses, know this to be true.
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