RealGM Top 100 List #10

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#181 » by E-Balla » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:42 pm

ardee wrote:
Baller2014 wrote:
ardee wrote:This is such a racist post. Are you trying to imply that the Hawks were somehow worse because they had only Caucasian players?

I come here to debate basketball and I see this crap about ethnicity?

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No, I'm saying the previous exclusion of black players, who would represent over 50% of all players less than 10 years later, clearly reduced the quality of the league as a whole. I have no idea how you think such an observation is "racist". If we prevented all white players and foreigners playing in today's NBA the effect would be much the same.

Anyway, done explaining this for now. I have to go to work.


Hilarious. You directly implied in your original post that as minutes played by African-Americans increased and Caucasian minutes decreased, there was a rise in the level of play.

If that doesn't imply that Caucasian players are worse just because they're Caucasian, I don't know what does.

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No it implies that 50% of the NBA talent wasn't allowed to play in the league. Larger talent pool = more talent.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#182 » by ceiling raiser » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:42 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Damn, that's pretty awesome stuff. Looks like KG's offensive ability in the post has been pretty vastly underrated.

It really is. I'm honestly not sure how to feel at the moment. Assuming what we know about KG's defense is true, it appears I'm severely undervaluing him overall (and I thought I was higher on Garnett than most).

All I can say is, wow. I don't know if Doc MJ and and drza were aware of this data when they started advocating for KG five or six spots ago, but it appears they weren't really far off at all.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#183 » by Purch » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:43 pm

acrossthecourt wrote:
Purch wrote:
fpliii wrote:1997 regular season -.537% TS Post season-.497% TS
1998 regular season- .527% TS Post season-.500% TS
1999 regular season- .493% TS Post season- .488% TS
2000 regular season -.545% TS Post season- .441% TS
2001 regular season - .531% TS Post season- .569% TS
2002 regular season -.536% TS Post season- .514% TS
2003 regular season- .553% TS Post season-.539% TS
2004 regular season- .547% TS Post season-.542% TS
2008 regular season- .588% TS Post season-.542% TS
2010 regular season- .569% TS Post season-.530% TS
2011 regular season- .575% TS Post season-.479% TS
2012 regular season- .550% TS Post season-.541% TS
2013 regular season-.535% TS Post season-.563% TS
2014 regular season- .467% TS Post season-.568% TS

So out of the 13 post season runs in his career, Garnett's efficency has gone down in 10 of them

His average drop is only 1.7 TS% and this doesn't take into account strength of schedule. Since he was a low seed versus some great western conference teams for a while, that matters.

Considering they played in identical weatern conferences for most of their career, I find that hard to buy. Again this is loser bias, you're punishing Duncan for leading his teams to higher seeds , and given KG a pass due to being a lower seed. But it still doesn't explain why his individual post season effiency against the same Western conference teams always drops off. Whiles Duncan's goes up during his prime, against a lot of the same defenders whiles facing more post double teams
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#184 » by acrossthecourt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:47 pm

Purch wrote:
acrossthecourt wrote:
Purch wrote:

His average drop is only 1.7 TS% and this doesn't take into account strength of schedule. Since he was a low seed versus some great western conference teams for a while, that matters.

Considering they played in identical weatern conferences for most of their career, I find that hard to buy. Again this is loser bias, you're punishing Duncan for leading his teams to higher seeds , and given KG a pass due to being a lower seed. But it still doesn't explain why his individual post season effiency against the same Western conference teams always drops off. Whiles Duncan's goes up during his prime, against a lot of the same defenders whiles facing more post double teams

...I didn't punish Duncan anywhere. Adjusting for strength of schedule would put them on even ground.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#185 » by An Unbiased Fan » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:49 pm

shutupandjam wrote:
Spoiler:
Yes, it accounts for this. Synergy actually breaks it all down though so I'll take a look year by year:


2005:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense (includes pass outs): 1.022 PPP on 740 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.043 PPP on 555 poss
Pass outs: 1.084 PPP on 155 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 30 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.981 PPP on 627 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.938 PPP on 470 poss
Pass outs: 1.288 PPP on 125 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.406 PPP on 32 poss


2006:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.034 PPP on 730 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.049 PPP on 574 poss
Pass outs: 1.08 PPP on 138 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.222 PPP on 18 poss


Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.952 PPP on 834 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.903 PPP on 636 poss
Pass outs: 1.269 PPP on 171 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.111 PPP on 27 poss

2007:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.080 PPP on 511 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.068 PPP on 470 poss
Pass outs: 1.351 PPP on 37 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 4 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.992 PPP on 864 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.036 PPP on 669 poss
Pass outs: 0.988 PPP on 164 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.065 PPP on 31 poss

2008:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.060 PPP on 580 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.038 PPP on 472 poss
Pass outs: 1.263 PPP on 99 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.957 PPP on 678 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.948 PPP on 600 poss
Pass outs: 1.159 PPP on 63 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.467 PPP on 15 poss

2009:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.993 PPP on 290 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 254 poss
Pass outs: 1.484 PPP on 31 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 5 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.010 PPP on 675 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.982 PPP on 563 poss
Pass outs: 1.250 PPP on 96 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.563 PPP on 16 poss


Note: the doubled, no pass out isn't actually recorded, I just did the math there. The number of "doubled, no pass out" situations seems awfully low to me (I'm not 100% sure where they draw the line for "double team")...

Really nice work. Do you have Kobe's post-up numbers by chance. I think in 2013 he was 1.09 PPP, but it would be interesting to see.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#186 » by ceiling raiser » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:50 pm

Purch wrote:Considering they played in identical weatern conferences for most of their career, I find that hard to buy. Again this is loser bias, you're punishing Duncan for leading his teams to higher seeds , and given KG a pass due to being a lower seed. But it still doesn't explain why his individual post season effiency against the same Western conference teams always drops off. Whiles Duncan's goes up during his prime, against a lot of the same defenders whiles facing more post double teams

The West isn't identical if they're not matching up against the same defenses. It's not "loser bias" per se (since there's no bonus for losing, we're just taking into account context), it's just taking into account defenses faced. If a guy faces -3, -2, -4 teams in a postseason run by virtue of having a lower seed, and another goes up against -1, +1, -2 for instance, we have to take it into account. Definitely can't compare the two at face value.

If we have a big enough sample to compare them against only common opponents in the same seasons, then that could eliminate the need for adjustments.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#187 » by Purch » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:50 pm

acrossthecourt wrote:
Purch wrote:
acrossthecourt wrote:His average drop is only 1.7 TS% and this doesn't take into account strength of schedule. Since he was a low seed versus some great western conference teams for a while, that matters.

Considering they played in identical weatern conferences for most of their career, I find that hard to buy. Again this is loser bias, you're punishing Duncan for leading his teams to higher seeds , and given KG a pass due to being a lower seed. But it still doesn't explain why his individual post season effiency against the same Western conference teams always drops off. Whiles Duncan's goes up during his prime, against a lot of the same defenders whiles facing more post double teams

...I didn't punish Duncan anywhere. Adjusting for strength of schedule would put them on even ground.

I'm sorry I'm not understanding what being a lower seed has to so with individual effiency, I don't see the correlation


fpliii wrote:
Purch wrote:Considering they played in identical weatern conferences for most of their career, I find that hard to buy. Again this is loser bias, you're punishing Duncan for leading his teams to higher seeds , and given KG a pass due to being a lower seed. But it still doesn't explain why his individual post season effiency against the same Western conference teams always drops off. Whiles Duncan's goes up during his prime, against a lot of the same defenders whiles facing more post double teams

The West isn't identical if they're not matching up against the same defenses. It's not "loser bias" per se (since there's no bonus for losing, we're just taking into account context), it's just taking into account defenses faced. If a guy faces -3, -2, -4 teams in a postseason run by virtue of having a lower seed, and another goes up against -1, +1, -2 for instance, we have to take it into account. Definitely can't compare the two at face value.

If we have a big enough sample to compare them against only common opponents in the same seasons, then that could eliminate the need for adjustments.

So how are you comparing it with the amount of teams Duncan played in the playoffs compared to the first round eliminations of Garnett?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#188 » by colts18 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:52 pm

acrossthecourt wrote:...I didn't punish Duncan anywhere. Adjusting for strength of schedule would put them on even ground.



In their primes they played virtually identical defensive opposition:

PS Prime Avg. Opp Drtg ▾
Shaquille O’Neal 101.9
Kobe Bryant 102.6
Kevin Garnett 103.5
Tim Duncan 103.7
Dwyane Wade 103.7
Karl Malone 103.9
Dirk Nowitzki 103.9
Steve Nash 103.9
LeBron James 104.4
Michael Jordan 105
Larry Bird 105.5
Charles Barkley 105.8
Hakeem Olajuwon 105.8
David Robinson 106.5
Magic Johnson 106.7
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#189 » by therealbig3 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:52 pm

fpliii wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Damn, that's pretty awesome stuff. Looks like KG's offensive ability in the post has been pretty vastly underrated.

It really is. I'm honestly not sure how to feel at the moment. Assuming what we know about KG's defense is true, it appears I'm severely undervaluing him overall (and I thought I was higher on Garnett than most).

All I can say is, wow. I don't know if Doc MJ and and drza were aware of this data when they started advocating for KG five or six spots ago, but it appears they weren't really far off at all.


And the thing is, it's not even the major argument made for Garnett. Doctor MJ and drza have been advocating that the value of a volume scoring big man not named Shaq, Kareem, peak Hakeem, Dirk, or Barkley is overrated, in response to the argument that Duncan's value as a post player trumps Garnett's advantages elsewhere. But if you look at when their primes overlap...05-07...Garnett is significantly outproducing Duncan in terms of post-up offense. Turns out, the evidence DOESN'T support Duncan trumping Garnett as a post up player. If anything, it's the opposite. Which makes Garnett's value in other areas of the game a much bigger deal.

However, I know that a common counter-argument would be to check Duncan's efficiency in the playoffs compared to Garnett to truly see Duncan's advantage, but my response to that would be that whenever Duncan was in a similar situation to Garnett in the playoffs (supporting cast not stepping up, Duncan is over-relied on, or the defense they're facing is overwhelming), his efficiency looked remarkably similar to Garnett's.

And I'm sorry, I just can't overlook the coaching factor. Duncan had Gregg Popovich, Garnett had Flip Saunders. Big difference.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#190 » by ceiling raiser » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:55 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Really nice work. Do you have Kobe's post-up numbers by chance. I think in 2013 he was 1.09 PPP, but it would be interesting to see.

I'm a big skillset guy, and definitely appreciate when players look to improve their games. I think it was in summer 07 that Kobe first started working with Grover. Yes, he had a renewed commitment to defense, trusted the team concept more, and seemed to have a better supporting cast in 08 and 09 (even aside from Pau) than he did in 06 and 07, but I think the weight training is an underrated narrative here.

Kobe also worked with Hakeem in Summer 09, which really helped him that year, since I think by the time the playoffs rolled around the next spring, he had exited his prime (he was obviously still a dominant player). He seemed to have lost a step athletically, but his footwork and moves were on point that season, and it really helped him out.

Now, don't get me wrong, I still might say 06 and 07 were his best two seasons. But I am higher on 08-10 than most (especially going up against very good defenses in the playoffs during extended runs, as the clear cut number one option).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#191 » by Purch » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:56 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
fpliii wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Damn, that's pretty awesome stuff. Looks like KG's offensive ability in the post has been pretty vastly underrated.

It really is. I'm honestly not sure how to feel at the moment. Assuming what we know about KG's defense is true, it appears I'm severely undervaluing him overall (and I thought I was higher on Garnett than most).

All I can say is, wow. I don't know if Doc MJ and and drza were aware of this data when they started advocating for KG five or six spots ago, but it appears they weren't really far off at all.


And the thing is, it's not even the major argument made for Garnett. Doctor MJ and drza have been advocating that the value of a volume scoring big man not named Shaq, Kareem, peak Hakeem, Dirk, or Barkley is overrated, in response to the argument that Duncan's value as a post player trumps Garnett's advantages elsewhere. But if you look at when their primes overlap...05-07...Garnett is significantly outproducing Duncan in terms of post-up offense. Turns out, the evidence DOESN'T support Duncan trumping Garnett as a post up player. If anything, it's the opposite.

However, I know that a common counter-argument would be to check Duncan's efficiency in the playoffs compared to Garnett to truly see Duncan's advantage, but my response to that would be that whenever Duncan was in a similar situation to Garnett in the playoffs (supporting cast not stepping up, Duncan is over-relied on, or the defense they're facing is overwhelming), his efficiency looked remarkably similar to Garnett's.

And I'm sorry, I just can't overlook the coaching factor. Duncan had Gregg Popovich, Garnett had Flip Saunders. Big difference.



And you would be wrong. Even in Duncan's 03 season when he had to carry the most load, his efficency increased in the post season. Duncan becomes a more reliable scorer in the post season, Garnett doesn't. It doesn't matter if its 04 or 08, this drop in efficency is consistent, it doesn't matter what load Garnett is carrying or how great the team, it's consistent
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#192 » by ronnymac2 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:56 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
fpliii wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Damn, that's pretty awesome stuff. Looks like KG's offensive ability in the post has been pretty vastly underrated.

It really is. I'm honestly not sure how to feel at the moment. Assuming what we know about KG's defense is true, it appears I'm severely undervaluing him overall (and I thought I was higher on Garnett than most).

All I can say is, wow. I don't know if Doc MJ and and drza were aware of this data when they started advocating for KG five or six spots ago, but it appears they weren't really far off at all.


And the thing is, it's not even the major argument made for Garnett. Doctor MJ and drza have been advocating that the value of a volume scoring big man not named Shaq, Kareem, peak Hakeem, Dirk, or Barkley is overrated, in response to the argument that Duncan's value as a post player trumps Garnett's advantages elsewhere. But if you look at when their primes overlap...05-07...Garnett is significantly outproducing Duncan in terms of post-up offense. Turns out, the evidence DOESN'T support Duncan trumping Garnett as a post up player. If anything, it's the opposite.

However, I know that a common counter-argument would be to check Duncan's efficiency in the playoffs compared to Garnett to truly see Duncan's advantage, but my response to that would be that whenever Duncan was in a similar situation to Garnett in the playoffs (supporting cast not stepping up, Duncan is over-relied on, or the defense they're facing is overwhelming), his efficiency looked remarkably similar to Garnett's.

And I'm sorry, I just can't overlook the coaching factor. Duncan had Gregg Popovich, Garnett had Flip Saunders. Big difference.


1. Duncan's most prolific scoring seasons were in 2002 and 2003.

2. Flip Saunders is a very good offensive coach.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#193 » by ceiling raiser » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:59 pm

Purch wrote:So how are you comparing it with the amount of teams Duncan played in the playoffs compared to the first round eliminations of Garnett?

Neither player gets a bonus or gets docked for playing on better teams.

We obviously still have to take KG's playoff performances into account, but since his teams faced fewer opponents, there's a larger margin for error during shorter runs (in either direction) than there is during the Spurs' runs.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#194 » by ardee » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:01 pm

Kobe vs. Garnett

I want to understand why, seriously, KG can be considered a better Playoff performer than Kobe. Those who are voting for KG, break it down for me.

If you want to give KG the regular season edge, I understand. I don't agree, but I won't get into an argument over it because it's not the point I'm trying to make here.

I just don't see any fanthomable way you can rank Kobe behind KG in the Playoffs.

Offensively, Bryant is clearly better. That's not debatable whichever way you slice it. I could go and make a long case for this but I don't think I need to, unless someone disagrees here.

People are going to cry defense, but honestly until he got to Boston I've never seen real evidence of KG's defense really making a big difference to team results in Minny.

I've covered this before. In the regular season, the Wolves never had great defensive teams, or even passable ones, despite not atrocious personnel (read my lips, not amazing, but not terrible either). I credit this to irresponsible defensive play on KG's part: not exactly his fault if that's what Flip was telling him to do, but that doesn't take away from the fact that his impact was reduced.

Let's have a look at 2002: the year KG was spending a lot of time near the top of the key in a bizarre one-man zone.

That was semi-effective, because the Wolves had their opponents shooting 38% from 16 feet to the 3 point line. That was below the LA of 39.7. Not bad, until you consider opponents were shooting only 24% of their shots there. Meanwhile, Minny's opponents were shooting an above LA of 61% from 0-3 feet, and shooting 29% of their field goals in that space.

KG was leaving the lane too open by playing this 'middle linebacker' role that everyone is so crazy about. Time and time again, the Wolves were getting demolished in the paint. They gave up 335 dunks that year, which was fifth worst in the league. Then, in the Playoffs, Dirk destroyed them, going hypernova in the paint because KG was guarding Finley and in general trying to help exclusively on the perimeter.

Now, whether or not Flip told him to do that is irrelevant. If you want to give KG full credit for executing Thibs' brilliant schemes in Boston, you have to let him bare the brunt when the defense doesn't work. It can't work for him both ways.

Then in 2003, again the Wolves get destroyed in the paint against the Lakers. LA shot 67% in the paint! Playoff best. That's up there with elite paint finishers today as PLAYERS, and this was a whole team!

Same story in 2004. The Lakers eliminated the Timberwolves by shooting 64% in the paint. And drza, don't tell me KG's talents were better served helping on 3 point shooters like in the Dallas series against the Lakers, Shaq and Kobe LIVED in the paint and that's where they ate the Magic alive.

Overall, I think KG's defense is a lot less impactful than is being painted, mainly because this 'horizontal' thing is a lot less impactful than the 'vertical' style that Hakeem/DRob/Duncan usually employed. Garnett could have served his team better had he been making sure their opponents didn't shoot the most efficient shots possible instead of helping on mid-range jumpers.

In Boston things changed because he had a decent rim protector in Perkins to cover for him, so his leaving the paint helped more than it would in Minny.

Before that, his style of defense was arguably hurting his team, and coupled with Kobe's obviously big offensive advantage, there's no reason to say KG approached Kobe as a Playoff performer.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#195 » by Purch » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:04 pm

fpliii wrote:
Purch wrote:So how are you comparing it with the amount of teams Duncan played in the playoffs compared to the first round eliminations of Garnett?

Neither player gets a bonus or gets docked for playing on better teams.

We obviously still have to take KG's playoff performances into account, but since his teams faced fewer opponents, there's a larger margin for error during shorter runs (in either direction) than there is during the Spurs' runs.

This is why I used a large sample size, because it's consistent regardless of how hot or cold he was going into the playoffs,or what opponent he was facing, Garnett's effiency consistently goes down in the post season
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#196 » by Jim Naismith » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:04 pm

A repost from a few threads ago to keep him in the conversation:

There are only three stars who led teams that eliminated the Showtime Lakers before Kareem turned 40 (1987).

Larry Bird did it once.

Hakeem Olajuwon did it once.

Moses Malone did it twice.

Moses also won 3 MVPs in a 5-year span, beating Bird, Kareem, Dr. J, and Magic along the way.

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#197 » by ronnymac2 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:06 pm

ardee wrote:Then in 2003, again the Wolves get destroyed in the paint against the Lakers. LA shot 67% in the paint! Playoff best. That's up there with elite paint finishers today as PLAYERS, and this was a whole team!

Same story in 2004. The Lakers eliminated the Timberwolves by shooting 64% in the paint. And drza, don't tell me KG's talents were better served helping on 3 point shooters like in the Dallas series against the Lakers, Shaq and Kobe LIVED in the paint and that's where they ate the Magic alive.


Not being able to defend Shaq isn't an indictment on one's defense in my opinion.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#198 » by acrossthecourt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:08 pm

Purch wrote:
fpliii wrote:
Purch wrote:So how are you comparing it with the amount of teams Duncan played in the playoffs compared to the first round eliminations of Garnett?

Neither player gets a bonus or gets docked for playing on better teams.

We obviously still have to take KG's playoff performances into account, but since his teams faced fewer opponents, there's a larger margin for error during shorter runs (in either direction) than there is during the Spurs' runs.

This is why I used a large sample size, because it's consistent regardless of how hot or cold he was going into the playoffs,or what opponent he was facing, Garnett's effiency consistently goes down in the post season

It barley goes down, and that's only because he's facing better teams! It happens to everyone. I bet Duncan's goes down too.

edit: It does. (Fixed the numbers.)

In 10 out of his 16 postseasons, Duncan's TS% drops. So please, drop this silly argument.

People are way too obsessed with Garnett's scoring. He's best at defense, rebounding, and creating for others via screens and passes and spacing the floor. It's like knocking Kobe for rebounding or Russell for scoring.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#199 » by Purch » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:10 pm

acrossthecourt wrote:
Purch wrote:
fpliii wrote:Neither player gets a bonus or gets docked for playing on better teams.

We obviously still have to take KG's playoff performances into account, but since his teams faced fewer opponents, there's a larger margin for error during shorter runs (in either direction) than there is during the Spurs' runs.

This is why I used a large sample size, because it's consistent regardless of how hot or cold he was going into the playoffs,or what opponent he was facing, Garnett's effiency consistently goes down in the post season

It barley goes down, and that's only because he's facing better teams! It happens to everyone. I bet Duncan's goes down too.


Depends what you mean by barley, certain years I see big drops, certain years I see small drops, but the point is he always shot worse when it matterd

You would bet wrong, like I stated it's the opposite with Duncan. If you take away his past 4 post prime seasons, his post season career efficency is actually higher than his regular season, because he consistently upped his game when it mattered
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #10 

Post#200 » by ardee » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:12 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:
ardee wrote:Then in 2003, again the Wolves get destroyed in the paint against the Lakers. LA shot 67% in the paint! Playoff best. That's up there with elite paint finishers today as PLAYERS, and this was a whole team!

Same story in 2004. The Lakers eliminated the Timberwolves by shooting 64% in the paint. And drza, don't tell me KG's talents were better served helping on 3 point shooters like in the Dallas series against the Lakers, Shaq and Kobe LIVED in the paint and that's where they ate the Magic alive.


Not being able to defend Shaq isn't an indictment on one's defense in my opinion.


That's not my point... KG should've at least been there TRYING. Instead he was spending time showing on all picks and helping on shooters instead of guarding the part of the floor the Lakers were wreaking havoc.

And honestly, is it so much to expect a peak KG in 2004, the MVP and clear best player in the league, to do at least a serviceable job on a past his prime Shaq? Considering the guy was shooting over 70% in the paint for the Lakers, I'd expect him to at least TRY.

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