RealGM Top 100 List #16

[Texas Chuck]

Looking at just FG% for a guy who also shoots 3's well, and who was drawing and converting FT's at an elite rate is misleading. Not to say Dirk never had some bad playoff games because he obviously did, but FG% alone doesn't really tell an accurate story of how effective Dirk was offensively.

I mean just look at that series in 01 against the Jazz. you can't just ignore that Dirk shot 10 FT's a game and made 90% of them. And if you want to mention that Dirk didn't shoot very well (in his first ever playoff series btw) then you should at least acknowledge that his TS% was a very impressive 59% and Karl's was 48%.

Now some of those examples you gave Dirk was pretty poor(05 Rockets series he was dreadful for instance), but Dirk's elite ability to pull points from the charity stripe is a huge part of his offensive game and doing any kind of breakdown that ignores really is of almost no value at all.

[RSCD3_]

Vote : dirk nowitzki

IMO the easiest player to build around and the highest peak of the three. He had the best offensive game and has decent longevity. He consistently rose his game in the playoffs and his play didnt fall off in the playoffs because his skill set was more conducive to success.

His defense was not that special but it wasn't a liability, his size allowed him to guard PF and C decently and he was good at the little things at defense. Karl Malone was better but in not convinced his help defense was that much better.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[ThaRegul8r]

ElGee said some examples. Malone had his bad games, but he had some of the best playoffs games one player could had.

Same as Dirk.. he had his bad games either, probably more than Malones did

Unless one goes and does the same for Malone, this is an assertion that can't be made because there's absolutely no evidence. "Probably" is not evidence. One can't only look up one side and make any statement whatsoever about the other side without doing the exact same thing. Things like that don't help one's case, regardless who they're supporting. The fact that you're a Jazz forum moderator is pertinent, as you're not an impartial party.

Looking at just FG% for a guy who also shoots 3's well, and who was drawing and converting FT's at an elite rate is misleading. Not to say Dirk never had some bad playoff games because he obviously did, but FG% alone doesn't really tell an accurate story of how effective Dirk was offensively.

I mean just look at that series in 01 against the Jazz. you can't just ignore that Dirk shot 10 FT's a game and made 90% of them. And if you want to mention that Dirk didn't shoot very well (in his first ever playoff series btw) then you should at least acknowledge that his TS% was a very impressive 59% and Karl's was 48%.

Now some of those examples you gave Dirk was pretty poor(05 Rockets series he was dreadful for instance), but Dirk's elite ability to pull points from the charity stripe is a huge part of his offensive game and doing any kind of breakdown that ignores really is of almost no value at all.

You're a Maverick fan, he's a Jazz fan. But I found it more convincing when, like for your post on Dallas' eliminations, you presented the information and said people could look at it and decide for themselves. Homerism makes me skeptical.

To Malone supporters, addressing some of the concerns that have been raised would go a lot further toward helping your case. But it seems no one wants to touch it.

[Joao Saraiva]

I am not voting but between Karl Malone and Dirk I would go with Dirk. His game elevation in the playoffs should be enough to top Karl Malone. Still KG is already in the list, isn't he? So I'm not sure what criteria there can be for KG to be ranked so much ahead of Dirk, Karl or Barkley, but anyway:

Keep in mind:
Regular seasons:
Malone 19
Dirk 16

Playoff presences:
Malone 19
Dirk 13

Seasons above 25 PPG (Regular season/playoffs)
Karl Malone 12/12
Dirk Nowitzki 5/9

Karl Malone is the better volume scorer.

Seasons above 55%ts
Karl Malone 15/4
Dirk Nowitzki 15/10

Above 60%ts
Karl Malone 3/1
Dirk Nowitzki 4//3

Dirk Nowitzki is the most efficient between them. And Karl Malone's ts% in the playoff is something that should be taken against him. 4 post seasons above 55%ts? For a PF? That's awful. Also if you do the gap with 57.5ts% you will see the difference between them.

In playoff time, Malone with Utah averaged 26.3 PPG and Dirk averages in his career 22.3. I'll take Dirk's efficiency over a 4 PPG difference. So the way I see it, Dirk is the better scorer.


Seasons above 10 RPG:
Karl Malone 10/12
Dirk Nowtizki 0/8

While I think Karl Malone is the better rebounder, the margin is not as big as regular season numbers suggest. Dirk has 10.1 RPG in the playoffs in his career, and Malone 10.7. Still I think Malone is the better rebounder, and by a good margin.

Playmaking: there is no big gap going either way, so I don't think we can determine anything here.

PER (for me a good indicator of the player's impact, even if it's not perfect it can help us understand):
Seasons above 25 PER:
Karl Malone 9/2 (peaked at 25.8 in the playoffs)
Dirk Nowitzki 4/6 (twice above 28 in the playoffs)

WS/48 over 20:
Karl Malone 12/2 (peaked at 22 in the playoffs)
Dirk Nowitzki 9/6 (has 3 amazing post seasons at 28.7 , 26.3 ahd 29.1 WS/48, and these are elite numbers)

I believe PER and WS/48 are good stats to measure the general impact of a player. And they say Dirk's impact in playoff time is almost at the level of the greatest players to ever play the game, while Karl Malone is getting the edge in the regular season. I would take Dirk's impact in the playoffs over Malone's impact in the regular season.

Team success:
Dirk/Malone
Championships 1/0
NBA Finals 2/3

Malone played in 12 teams above 50 wins (and a one year lockout team on pace to be above 50)
Dirk played in 11 teams above 50 wins.

I have to value that ring of Dirk, because he played less seasons and every thing else looks similar (I don't value so much Malone's 3rd NBA finals, since he was just a role player - as the man both of them played in the NBA finals twice). Dirk has more team success.

Accodales: Dirk/Karl
MVP awards: 1/2
Finals MVP: 1/0
All-NBA 1st team 4/11
All-NBA defensive team 0/3

I think Karl Malone has more accodales. And they show Karl Malone is the best defender between them.

Given all this, even tough I think it's close but I will take Dirk's playoff rise on his game instead of Malone's fall in the playoffs. It's a close battle and of course I understand who thinks different and decides to go with Karl Malone.

[FX20014]

In a Karl vs Dirk comparison I think it's all about what each voter gives priority to. Malone's RS career, his longevity, his awards, is impressive enough to be considered in the TOP10. There's no discussion he has an edge there over Dirk. On the other hand, Dirk has been a vastly superior scorer and offensive player, to the point Karl looks like Garnett without having the same defensive dominance. To me it should be clearly Dirk, as I consider post season play the difference when arguing TOP10 players.

On the other hand, Dirk has been a vastly superior scorer and offensive player, to the point Karl looks like Garnett without having the same defensive dominance. To me it should be clearly Dirk, as I consider post season play the difference when arguing TOP10 players.

You know, I really enjoy these threads, because you get to debate other minds. Still, sometimes I'm baffled by the arguments of some. You can gather all the stats and info u want, but to suggest that Dirk is a vastly superior offensive player than Malone or Garnett is flawed and dismissive. How long have u been watching basketball? Karl Malone is one the greatest players, but scorers in NBA history. Malone's post season is just as good as Dirk if not better. You can't fault Malone for having to face Jordan/Pippen Bulls twice.

And u speak as if Garnett's a slouch on offense. KG's offensive game has always been underrated, but people tend to forget he was BEAST in his prime. Look, I love Dirk, he think he's a top 25 player of all time, but there's more to being great than just scoring the ball. The only thing that separates Dirk from Malone is a championship ring, but that doesn't necessarily make him better than Malone as a player.

There are lot of players on the rankings list that are better than those with the most rings. We often underrate Moses Malone, but there's an argument of putting him ahead of K.Malone and Dirk. Moses stats and numbers are just as good as Karl or Dirk.

[FJS]

TS is one of advance stats who i'm not sold. Karl Malone is slighty better in ppg as franchise player in utah jazz and in fg%. So basically scored more shooting less (as i said slim margin) but dirk have a better ts. I can undertand that a guy who shot 9 for 20 for 3 its as valuable that the one who score 10 for 20 for 2 and 5 of 5 from ft. The 1st guy produced more points than the second.
The problem is kal malone shot better from the floor and scored more. He did not scored from 3 and he wasn't a 90 ft shooter... but at the end of day he put more points not shooting more. If he scored more ft, the difference would be more notable.
In this case ts it's not giving me any information.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

In a Karl vs Dirk comparison I think it's all about what each voter gives priority to. Malone's RS career, his longevity, his awards, is impressive enough to be considered in the TOP10. There's no discussion he has an edge there over Dirk. On the other hand, Dirk has been a vastly superior scorer and offensive player, to the point Karl looks like Garnett without having the same defensive dominance. To me it should be clearly Dirk, as I consider post season play the difference when arguing TOP10 players.

On the other hand, Dirk has been a vastly superior scorer and offensive player, to the point Karl looks like Garnett without having the same defensive dominance. To me it should be clearly Dirk, as I consider post season play the difference when arguing TOP10 players.

You know, I really enjoy these threads, because you get to debate other minds. Still, sometimes I'm baffled by the arguments of some. You can gather all the stats and info u want, but to suggest that Dirk is a vastly superior offensive player than Malone or Garnett is flawed and dismissive. How long have u been watching basketball? Karl Malone is one the greatest players, but scorers in NBA history. Malone's post season is just as good as Dirk if not better. You can't fault Malone for having to face Jordan/Pippen Bulls twice.

And u speak as if Garnett's a slouch on offense. KG's offensive game has always been underrated, but people tend to forget he was BEAST in his prime. Look, I love Dirk, he think he's a top 25 player of all time, but there's more to being great than just scoring the ball.

the "vastly superior scorer and offensive player" is related to post season only, anyway.
As many others pointed out, Malone's strengths were relatively easily to be taken out by a good defense that had the luxury to prepare the game and make adjustment. That's why for me Malone was the PF version of David Robinson, but unlike DR he was not an all time great rim protector and his case is made by his offense And numbers suggest exactly that, given the dreadful dropoff in efficiency he had in the PO unlike Dirk.

Not that it matters, but I witnessed like 2/3 of Karl's career.

[FJS]

I think some are obsessed about drop off of efficiency in karl malone case. With drop off included he was a 26.3 ppg 11 rpg in po in around 46fg. And that its better than a lot of guys did. Dirk included.

[FX20014]

In a Karl vs Dirk comparison I think it's all about what each voter gives priority to. Malone's RS career, his longevity, his awards, is impressive enough to be considered in the TOP10. There's no discussion he has an edge there over Dirk. On the other hand, Dirk has been a vastly superior scorer and offensive player, to the point Karl looks like Garnett without having the same defensive dominance. To me it should be clearly Dirk, as I consider post season play the difference when arguing TOP10 players.

On the other hand, Dirk has been a vastly superior scorer and offensive player, to the point Karl looks like Garnett without having the same defensive dominance. To me it should be clearly Dirk, as I consider post season play the difference when arguing TOP10 players.

You know, I really enjoy these threads, because you get to debate other minds. Still, sometimes I'm baffled by the arguments of some. You can gather all the stats and info u want, but to suggest that Dirk is a vastly superior offensive player than Malone or Garnett is flawed and dismissive. How long have u been watching basketball? Karl Malone is one the greatest players, but scorers in NBA history. Malone's post season is just as good as Dirk if not better. You can't fault Malone for having to face Jordan/Pippen Bulls twice.

And u speak as if Garnett's a slouch on offense. KG's offensive game has always been underrated, but people tend to forget he was BEAST in his prime. Look, I love Dirk, he think he's a top 25 player of all time, but there's more to being great than just scoring the ball.

the "vastly superior scorer and offensive player" is related to post season only, anyway.
As many others pointed out, Malone's strengths were relatively easily to be taken out by a good defense that had the luxury to prepare the game and make adjustment. That's why for me Malone was the PF version of David Robinson, but unlike DR he was not an all time great rim protector and his case is made by his offense And numbers suggest exactly that, given the dreadful dropoff in efficiency he had in the PO unlike Dirk.

Not that it matters, but I witnessed like 2/3 of Karl's career.

So Dirk is a rim protector? So Dirk couldn't be taken out by double-teams or good defense? So we're going to nitpick a player just to justify an argument. Not everyone can score and defend like Duncan, Hakeem, Garnett or even Robinson, and that's what puts those guys in another class. Drop off in efficiency? Sometimes age plays a role in drop off production or role change, that can't be helped. I'll say this, Dirk is a more skilled player than Karl, but statistically Karl has the edge.

[Texas Chuck]

In this case ts it's not giving me any information.

I don't understand how you think it gives you no information. Again just looking solely at the only series Malone and Dirk faced off in.

Just FG's tells us this:

Malone 49/121
Dirk 32/80

It looks like Malone kills Dirk because they shoot the same percentage on much higher volume. This shows Malone scoring 20 ppg at 40% shooting. It shows Dirk scoring 13 ppg on the same shooting. But obviously we both know this isn't what each guy produced.

But then we find another 2.5 ppg for Dirk on 3's, and 8.5 ppg on FTs. And because Dirk shot those FT's at 90% well we need to account for this in his overall efficiency, no? Which is why TS% includes it.

We also find another 8 ppg for Malone on FT's and he shot them at a high level as well -- 80%. Thus his TS% is higher than his FG% as well.

You simply have to credit guys like Malone and Dirk who draw lots of FT's and convert them at a high level. You do a disservice to them to ignore this.

[Texas Chuck]

I think some are obsessed about drop off of efficiency in karl malone case. With drop off included he was a 26.3 ppg 11 rpg in po in around 46fg. And that its better than a lot of guys did. Dirk included.

Totally agree that too much gets made of the efficiency drop off for Malone. Somebody made a great post about this several threads back pointing out that Malone never had the luxury in Utah of easing into a secondary role offensively and in his late 30's was still having to be the go-to guy. Unfair to expect him to be quite as effective at 37-38 as at 30-31. Will be interesting to me to see if Monta and Parsons can start to allow Dirk to share the load or if he will face the same issue as Malone did as an aging player.

Karl Malone was a great playoff performer. Period.

[Texas Chuck]

So Dirk is a rim protector?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWpbft8wQg4[/youtube]

[DQuinn1575]

I think some are obsessed about drop off of efficiency in karl malone case. With drop off included he was a 26.3 ppg 11 rpg in po in around 46fg. And that its better than a lot of guys did. Dirk included.

I've been backing Moses but it looks like the tie breaker is between Karl and dirk.

Question for Karl backers - my concern is the drop off in post season play as indicated by win shares /48.
If both Karl and dirk have reg season career of .205 and. .208 then I lean to Karl as he 1) has a couple of extra older age seasons which bring that down and 2) win shares underrates individual defense which hurts Karl

Now win shares is not perfect, but it is directional.

Karl's win shares/48 drop a lot in the playoffs. Dirk's do not. So why should I vote for Karl over dirk?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Texas Chuck]

And yes, that is mostly tongue-in-cheek. Though Dirk is 71st in career blocks and in his mid 20's he was a respectable shot-blocker.

[FJS]

I think some are obsessed about drop off of efficiency in karl malone case. With drop off included he was a 26.3 ppg 11 rpg in po in around 46fg. And that its better than a lot of guys did. Dirk included.

Totally agree that too much gets made of the efficiency drop off for Malone. Somebody made a great post about this several threads back pointing out that Malone never had the luxury in Utah of easing into a secondary role offensively and in his late 30's was still having to be the go-to guy. Unfair to expect him to be quite as effective at 37-38 as at 30-31. Will be interesting to me to see if Monta and Parsons can start to allow Dirk to share the load or if he will face the same issue as Malone did as an aging player.

Karl Malone was a great playoff performer. Period.

As I said in other post dirk had the luxury to have terry and marion in 18 and 13 ppg in the finals. Then people said he had a poor suporting cast. No doubt hornacek and stockton were better than them but they didn't help karl as they did with dirk in offense (10 & 9). Then, people shouldn't be surprised if karl efficiency drops in po.
And of course 02 and 03 weren't the best playoffs runs for jazz and karl. If we discount them (or we wait a couple of years to see what dirk does, altough the declining is there) the difference will be more noticiable.

[Basketballefan]

My original Vote was for Moses but since it's realistically between Dirk and Karl now i'll change my vote to KArl MAlone for the runoff.

Dirk is the better and more clutch playoff performer, but i think Karl's "playoff failures" are overstated, yes his TS% falls but his all around game does not. Karl has the better longevity and actually more playoff success when you really look at it, so in a vacuum I'm not sure Dirk gives you more opportunities at a championship. They both went to 2 finals and Dirk happened to win one, but going by the numbers Karl played better in his 2nd Finals than Dirk did in his winning effort, 25 11 4 55 TS% to Dirk's 26 10 2 54 TS%. Not saying that Karl in place of Dirk that year would've beat the Heat although its plausible, but i highly doubt Dirk in place of Malone would've beat the Bulls either.

So as i said for now, i think it's still Karl Malone because of the longevity, regardless of the fact that he's not quite as good as a playoff performer i think he still gives you more opportunities to win. If Dirk puts up a 2-3 more 20 6 type seasons he will likely pass Karl in my book.

[FX20014]

So Dirk is a rim protector?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWpbft8wQg4[/youtube]

Karl Malone is 60th all time? Moses is 23rd.What's your argument? Lol

[shutupandjam]

Runoff vote: Karl Malone

Probably the best longevity of all time behind Kareem, and an elite peak imo that's being entirely underrated here. He was one of the best scorers ever and able to lead consistently great playoff teams despite a drop in raw numbers. I love Dirk and think his peak is arguably higher, but Malone's longevity is too much to overcome at this point.

[FX20014]

My original Vote was for Moses but since it's realistically between Dirk and Karl now i'll change my vote to KArl MAlone for the runoff.

Dirk is the better and more clutch playoff performer, but i think Karl's "playoff failures" are overstated, yes his TS% falls but his all around game does not. Karl has the better longevity and actually more playoff success when you really look at it, so in a vacuum I'm not sure Dirk gives you more opportunities at a championship. They both went to 2 finals and Dirk happened to win one, but going by the numbers Karl played better in his 2nd Finals than Dirk did in his winning effort, 25 11 4 55 TS% to Dirk's 26 10 2 54 TS%. Not saying that Karl in place of Dirk that year would've beat the Heat although its plausible, but i highly doubt Dirk in place of Malone would've beat the Bulls either.

So as i said for now, i think it's still Karl Malone because of the longevity, regardless of the fact that he's not quite as good as a playoff performer i think he still gives you more opportunities to win. If Dirk puts up a 2-3 more 20 6 type seasons he will likely pass Karl in my book.

I keep seeing folks talk about Dirk is a better playoff performer or Karl is better, but neither are that great as far as team playoff success.

Mavs:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/
Jazz:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/

When I compare Karl v. Moses v. Dirk, Karl and Moses top Dirk as far as accolades, but Dirk get's the edge because of his 2011 championship. Still, I'm gonna go with Moses Malone on the rankings list ahead of Karl and Dirk.

[lorak]

TS is one of advance stats who i'm not sold. Karl Malone is slighty better in ppg as franchise player in utah jazz and in fg%. So basically scored more shooting less (as i said slim margin) but dirk have a better ts. I can undertand that a guy who shot 9 for 20 for 3 its as valuable that the one who score 10 for 20 for 2 and 5 of 5 from ft. The 1st guy produced more points than the second.
The problem is kal malone shot better from the floor and scored more. He did not scored from 3 and he wasn't a 90 ft shooter... but at the end of day he put more points not shooting more.

That's not true, because FTs are also shots! Look, TS% is just different way of saying "points per shot". And if you really don't like TS% because of some strange reasons, then we could look at points per shot (PPS):

Code: Select all

regular season
   PPG   PPS
KM   25,0   1,15
DN   22,5   1,16
      
playoffs
   PPG   PPS
KM   24,7   1,05
DN   25,6   1,16

So in regular season Malone was in fact shooting more, but also produced significantly more points.
However story is completely different in playoffs - not only Dirk has slightly advantage in volume, but also in efficiency. And that advantage is REALLY BIG in this case. And it basically shows what many people already said: that Malone's scoring abilities were pretty limited and exposed quite often in playoffs, while Dirk's more unique skillset allows him to maintain very high level of scoring production. Nowitzki is also better passer and overall defensively, so my vote goes to him.