RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #1 (LeBron James)

[limbo]

That's not true, Jordan's scoring and efficiency was just fine agianst good to great defenses:

Here are culminative stats against -2.0 rDRtg defenses or better:

2008-20 LeBron James (128 games): 28.8 ppg on 48.5% FG, 35.1% 3FG, 73.6% FT and 57.5% TS (+3.42% rTS) in 41.9 mpg
1985-98 Michael Jordan (108 games): 32.4 ppg on 47.6% FG, 32.4% 3FG, 83.1% FT and 56.2% TS (+2.67% rTS) in 42.0 mpg

"Much better" is a huge overstatement...

Edit: for interested, I include Kareem's stats as well:

1970-81 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (56 games): 30.3 ppg on 52.1% FG, 72.3% FT, 55.1% TS (+3.75 rTS%) in 45.3 mpg

Interesting that some of the best MJ performances against Top 5 defenses in his career came during 1986-1989 when he was a young/raw player with garbage casts, and most of his worst ones came from 1996-1998, where he had a lot more experiences, better teammates and better coaching... That seems largely counter-intuitive of how you'd expect a player's development curve to go.

Anyway, the biggest difference for me is just the quality of defenses LeBron had to face compared to Jordan was just better but in terms of average and in terms of facing more upper echelon ones.

The other thing that stands out is LeBron facing a lot of these teams without proper support from his team, either due to injuries (2012,2013,2015) or crap casts (2008, 2009, 2010, 2015, 2018)...

[giordunk]

A big part of LeBron's longevity is due to him skipping college.

Kareem would have done well in the NBA straight out of high school.

3 NBA seasons (LeBron) vs 3 seasons in college (for Michael). I don't get it? MJ had the break too first retirement.

[70sFan]

Anyway, the biggest difference for me is just the quality of defenses LeBron had to face compared to Jordan was just better but in terms of average and in terms of facing more upper echelon ones.

This is (again) not true at all.

2008-20 James faced -4.0 or better defenses in 33.9% of his playoff games.

1985-98 Jordan faced -4.0 or better defenses in 32.96% of his playoff games.

Can you back up your claim that James faced better upper tier defenses than Jordan?

[Sublime187]

This has been a scintillating start so far. I hope things continue this way at least for a little bit longer.

[scrabbarista]

I was ready to vote, but the news of Morey leaving has sapped the enthusiasm I had for the NBA that's been on life support for a couple of years now. I think I'm going to skip out on the 2020 project. Good luck, everyone, with your guys. Have a good time.

[limbo]

Anyway, the biggest difference for me is just the quality of defenses LeBron had to face compared to Jordan was just better but in terms of average and in terms of facing more upper echelon ones.

This is (again) not true at all.

2008-20 James faced -4.0 or better defenses in 33.9% of his playoff games.

1985-98 Jordan faced -4.0 or better defenses in 32.96% of his playoff games.

Can you back up your claim that James faced better upper tier defenses than Jordan?

I literally made a post about it in the previous page...

-4.0 defenses Jordan faced in the PS, in order from best to worst:

1993 Knicks at -8.3
1997 Heat at -6.1
1996 Sonics at -5.5
1989 Cavs at -4.9
1990 Pistons at -4.6
1986 Celtics at -4.6
1997 Hawks at -4.4
1985 Bucks at -4.3
1996 Knicks at -4.1
1992 Knicks at -4.0
1992 Blazers at -4.0

-4.0 defenses LeBron faced in the PS, best to worst:

2008 Celtics at -8.6
2014 Pacers at -7.4
2011 Celtics at -7.0
2011 Bulls at -7.0
2007 Spurs at -6.6
2012 Celtics at -6.4
2009 Magic at -6.4
2013 Pacers at -6.1
2016 Hawks at -5.0
2017 Warriors at -4.8
2018 Celtics at -4.7
2013 Spurs at -4.3
2014 Spurs at -4.3
2015 Warriors at -4.2
(could also put the 2010 Celtics on here, they were much better than their -3.8 suggest in RS because they were old and played conservative in the RS)

So basically both LeBron and Jordan faced one GOAT-level defensive team (LeBron the '08 Celtics at -8.6, Jordan the '93 Knicks at -8.3), but LeBron faced FAR more teams in the 7.5 to 6.0 range (including THREE teams above 7.0 and FOUR teams above 6.0, to be exact) while Jordan only faced ONE, and that was the Heat in '97 who barely make the cut at -6.1.

I don't know where you got your numbers, but it's clear when you do a couple of simple calculations that LeBron has faced better defensive teams in the Playoffs on aggregate even if you go as low as teams that were -2.5 or higher (because sometimes teams can be just above -2.5 in Def Rtg. and still be a Top 5 defensive team in the league, or thereabouts.

[trex_8063]

But players are judged by different standards. That is normal for sports. It's not exclusive to the NBA or to Lebron.

What's great for 1 player can be construed differently for another player.

You're right that casuals and media alike shift standards all over for all kinds of arbitrary reasons [bias, habit, narrative, whim, etc].

But that it is "normal" [or at least common] for people to do this doesn't make it right.
I believe people who take this business of ranking players in an all-time sense seriously (like I presume many here on a "Player Comparisons" forum do) should strive for a greater degree of internal consistency.

What meaning does one's ATL really have, if it's not internally consistent?


I don't judge players by different standards. I'm trying my best to use the same yard-stick for all of them.
I think any manner of "total value over replacement level" [my criteria basis], "total wins added", "championship probability added", or similar achieves this.
Though one doesn't have to hang his hat on these kinds types of criteria wherein longevity necessarily becomes a major factor. They can judge things strictly on peak-basis, or best 5 years basis, or other "best X years" basis. Those would all be fine to [even though it's not the way I choose to do things]; as long as one applies it consistently to everyone.

Are you suggesting that a great game for one is a great game for all?

I'm suggesting that someone like Lebron on his worst night of the year is STILL probably better than Isaac Bonga on the game of his life; and that should be acknowledged and reflected within player assessment.

[70sFan]

Anyway, the biggest difference for me is just the quality of defenses LeBron had to face compared to Jordan was just better but in terms of average and in terms of facing more upper echelon ones.

This is (again) not true at all.

2008-20 James faced -4.0 or better defenses in 33.9% of his playoff games.

1985-98 Jordan faced -4.0 or better defenses in 32.96% of his playoff games.

Can you back up your claim that James faced better upper tier defenses than Jordan?

I literally made a post about it in the previous page...

-4.0 defenses Jordan faced in the PS, in order from best to worst:

1993 Knicks at -8.3
1997 Heat at -6.1
1996 Sonics at -5.5
1989 Cavs at -4.9
1990 Pistons at -4.6
1986 Celtics at -4.6
1997 Hawks at -4.4
1985 Bucks at -4.3
1996 Knicks at -4.1
1992 Knicks at -4.0
1992 Blazers at -4.0

-4.0 defenses LeBron faced in the PS, best to worst:

2008 Celtics at -8.6
2014 Pacers at -7.4
2011 Celtics at -7.0
2011 Bulls at -7.0
2007 Spurs at -6.6
2012 Celtics at -6.4
2009 Magic at -6.4
2013 Pacers at -6.1
2016 Hawks at -5.0
2017 Warriors at -4.8
2018 Celtics at -4.7
2013 Spurs at -4.3
2014 Spurs at -4.3
2015 Warriors at -4.2
(could also put the 2010 Celtics on here, they were much better than their -3.8 suggest in RS because they were old and played conservative in the RS)

So basically both LeBron and Jordan faced one GOAT-level defensive team (LeBron the '08 Celtics at -8.6, Jordan the '93 Knicks at -8.3), but LeBron faced FAR more teams in the 7.5 to 6.0 range (including THREE teams above 7.0 and FOUR teams above 6.0, to be exact) while Jordan only faced ONE, and that was the Heat in '97 who barely make the cut at -6.1.

I don't know where you got your numbers, but it's clear when you do a couple of simple calculations that LeBron has faced better defensive teams in the Playoffs on aggregate even if you go as low as teams that were -2.5 or higher (because sometimes teams can be just above -2.5 in Def Rtg. and still be a Top 5 defensive team in the league, or thereabouts.

Thank you, for some reason I completely missed your post in the last page.

I forgot that Jordan faced 1992, not 1994 Knicks. You've made a point and I have to reconsider my opinion. I still don't think that Jordan fared worse than James, but it seems that James indeed faced better defensive teams.

[trex_8063]

1. Jordan. Best peak and prime, best resume in terms of accolades, basically best player ever at his best.
2. Lebron - best prime longevity, best career in terms of wins added
3. Russell. Most champs won, best team resume.

.

I'll add you [EDIT: both] to the voter panel, but please give a quick skim to OP of this thread (official sign-up thread).

I'll count your vote(s) here, but just be aware this is sort of flirting with the line of minimalist/inadequate reasoning (as noted in the "Basic Protocol" section of that aforementioned OP). In the future, we're going to ask that you both contribute at least a little bit more to the discussion if you wish to have a counted vote.

[Bidofo]

MJ:

1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


LeBron:

2006: vs. Pistons = 26.6 ppg on .516 %TS [-2.0 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Pistons = 25.7 ppg on .537 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-2.3 rDRtg, 7th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2009: vs. Magic = 38.5 ppg on .591 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2010: vs. Celtics = 26.8 ppg on .556 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2012: vs. Knicks = 27.8 ppg on .604 %TS [+7.7 rTS] (-3.6 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2012: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .587 %TS [+6.0 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Pacers = 29 ppg on .609 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Spurs = 25.3 ppg on .529 %TS [-0.6 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2014: vs. Bobcats = 30.0 ppg on .671 %TS [+13.0 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Spurs = 28.2 ppg on .679 %TS [+13.8 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2015: vs. Hawks = 30.3 ppg on .506 %TS [-2.8 rTS] (-2.5 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2015: vs. Warriors = 35.8 ppg on .477 %TS [-5.7 rTS] (-4.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2016: vs. Hawks = 24.3 ppg on .573 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-5.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2016: vs. Warriors = 29.7 ppg on .562 %TS [+2.1 rTS] (-2.6 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2017: vs. Warriors = 33.6 ppg on .630 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-4.8 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2018: vs. Raptors = 34.0 ppg on .579 %TS [+2.3 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2018: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .610 %TS [+5.4 rTS] (-4.7 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

This is such great info, was there a way you did this quickly or was it manual work?

It pretty much jives with what I think about each player. Jordan in the second three-peat was a clear level off his pre-retirement years on offense, in large part due to less slashing. Also as much as people want to crap on LeBron for playing in a "weak" East, those teams were only weak because they were meh on offense. He's faced very good defensive competition. Every single year since 2011 he's faced 2 teams that were top 6 on defense except 2017, and 11 out of those 16 teams that were 6th or better were actually 3rd or better. I've considered Jordan far and away the GOAT scorer, but this suggests it's much closer than I originally thought.

[trex_8063]

2009 is LeBron's best regular season. He was also amazing in the first two rounds of the play-offs but his heroball on sub-par efficiency in the ECF makes it difficult to see it as better than 2012, 2013, 2016 or 2018.

38.5 PPG at 59.1ts% is subpar efficiency?

I gotta say you definitely didn't watch the series. Go ahead, it's on youtube.

Don't be a dick.

I'll do this informally here to say to both: knock it off.
JS, don't accuse posters of not watching if they reached a different conclusion.
Dutchball, don't engage in name-calling.
Please just leave it here if you can't continue the discussion in a more constructive manner.

[ardee]

My criteria really comes down to career value over everything but I am a bit more subjective in how I rate individual seasons as compared to someone like ElGee who has his expected championships formula.

1. LeBron James

Same vote as in 2017 and it is even more cemented now. Frankly it comes down to one thing and that is career value, plain and simple. He has simply been too good for too long. I don't remember who but someone put it in perspective by saying he just had a peak Magic/Bird level season at age 35.

Let's compare him to MJ. MJ basically has 11 full seasons that are relevant ('85, '87-'93, '96-'98). LeBron has 15 (2005-2018, 2020). On top of that, MJ has the 18 game '86 season, the 17 game '95 season and his two Washington seasons. LeBron his his rookie year and 2019.

Quite simply, I do not believe that the average relevant MJ season was 36% better than the average LeBron season. Was is better at all? Probably by a few percent if I had to put a number on it, arguably not at all. MJ simply does not have the career value to match him. Some give folks a boost in ranking for peaks, and therefore give MJ the edge, but personally I think their peaks are dead even too and think in the '17 and '18 Playoffs LeBron reached a level even MJ never touched.

The throwaway seasons aren't super relevant but I would say that 2019 LeBron had uniquely bad circumstances and probably has more value than all the other 4 MJ years alone.

Again as someone said, LeBron is discussed so much I really don't think I need to go more into this. It's a pretty clear decision for me and becomes clearer every year.

2. Michael Jordan

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I'll expand a bit more on the other two later.

[trex_8063]

1.a/b Lebron/Kareem

3. RUSSELL

We don't deal in half-points/half-votes. If you want a counted vote, you'll have to decide/specify [and alert me to your decision] who you want #1 and who you want #2.

[homecourtloss]

How is Jordan a more reliable offensive anchor than LeBron? I went over their Playoff numbers and their scoring is actually quite comparable. Jordan would score at a bit higher volume but the efficiency edge goes to LeBron. Unless you wanna isolate specific periods or extreme examples in their careers...

Like for instance, comparing MJ's 87-91 seasons with LeBron's 07-11 seasons... in which case, it is true that at that point of both players respective careers, Jordan was a more reliable offensive anchor mostly because his scoring ability was better at that point in time to LeBron's.

If we compare 1992 & 1993 to 2012 & 2013, i would still go with Jordan for offense, but the gap has definitely visibly closed, and when you account for LeBron's versatility and defensive edge in those seasons.

2014,2016,2017,2018 and 2020 is actually LeBron's peak offensive resilience years, imo, and they stack up well against the Top 5 Jordan seasons in that sense, imo.

So really, if we're talking about offensive anchor resiliency, MJ's 87-91 should be stacking up to LeBron's 14-20 (minus '15 and '19) while 1992 and 1993 against 2012 and 2013 are kind of a wash. And Jordan's 96-98 run is compared to LeBron's 09-11 run if we're ranking it in terms of offensive reliability/resilience.

The problem after that is that Jordan doesn't have anything left worthwhile to stack, while LeBron has 2006,2007,2008 and 2015.

Additionally, Lebron’s scoring and efficiency held up really well against very good to great defenses in the playoffs, much better than Jordan’s scoring and efficiency did.

That's not true, Jordan's scoring and efficiency was just fine agianst good to great defenses:

Here are culminative stats against -2.0 rDRtg defenses or better:

2008-20 LeBron James (128 games): 28.8 ppg on 48.5% FG, 35.1% 3FG, 73.6% FT and 57.5% TS (+3.42% rTS) in 41.9 mpg
1985-98 Michael Jordan (108 games): 32.4 ppg on 47.6% FG, 32.4% 3FG, 83.1% FT and 56.2% TS (+2.67% rTS) in 42.0 mpg

"Much better" is a huge overstatement...

Edit: for interested, I include Kareem's stats as well:

1970-81 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (56 games): 30.3 ppg on 52.1% FG, 72.3% FT, 55.1% TS (+3.75 rTS%) in 45.3 mpg

Against -2.0 rDrtg that might be true but go look at -4.0 rDrtg or -5.0 or -6.0. LeBron played against many more all time defenses.

Also, take a look at reFG%.

LeBron’s scoring efficiency against great defenses is on a tier higher than Jordan’s.

[70sFan]

Additionally, Lebron’s scoring and efficiency held up really well against very good to great defenses in the playoffs, much better than Jordan’s scoring and efficiency did.

MJ:

1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


LeBron:

2006: vs. Pistons = 26.6 ppg on .516 %TS [-2.0 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Pistons = 25.7 ppg on .537 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-2.3 rDRtg, 7th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2009: vs. Magic = 38.5 ppg on .591 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2010: vs. Celtics = 26.8 ppg on .556 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2012: vs. Knicks = 27.8 ppg on .604 %TS [+7.7 rTS] (-3.6 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2012: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .587 %TS [+6.0 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Pacers = 29 ppg on .609 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Spurs = 25.3 ppg on .529 %TS [-0.6 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2014: vs. Bobcats = 30.0 ppg on .671 %TS [+13.0 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Spurs = 28.2 ppg on .679 %TS [+13.8 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2015: vs. Hawks = 30.3 ppg on .506 %TS [-2.8 rTS] (-2.5 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2015: vs. Warriors = 35.8 ppg on .477 %TS [-5.7 rTS] (-4.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2016: vs. Hawks = 24.3 ppg on .573 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-5.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2016: vs. Warriors = 29.7 ppg on .562 %TS [+2.1 rTS] (-2.6 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2017: vs. Warriors = 33.6 ppg on .630 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-4.8 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2018: vs. Raptors = 34.0 ppg on .579 %TS [+2.3 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2018: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .610 %TS [+5.4 rTS] (-4.7 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Just for thought, Kareem:

1970: vs Knicks = 34.2 on .585 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1972: vs Warriors = 22.8 on .432 %TS [-7.2 rTS] (-3.0 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1972: vs Lakers = 33.7 on .432 %TS [-2.2 rTS] (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1973: vs Warriors = 22.8 on .447 %TS [-5.1 rTS] (-2.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1974: vs Bulls = 34.8 on .673 %TS [+17.0 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1974: vs Celtics = 32.6 on .673 %TS [+4.9 rTS] (-2.6 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1978: vs Sonics = 27.0 on .526 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-3.2 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1979: vs Sonics = 28.8 on .617 %TS [+8.7 rTS] (-3.7 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1980: vs Suns = 31.8 on .663 %TS [+13.2 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1980: vs Sonics = 30.6 on .599 %TS [+6.8 rTS] (-5.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1980: vs Sixers = 33.4 on .578 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1982: vs Suns = 31.8 on .663 %TS [+13.2 rTS] (-4.5 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)

Relative rankings were lower back in the 1970s due to smaller league, but I think he still stacks up well next to the other two.

Top 5 defenses that didn't make -2.0 criteria:

1970: vs Sixers = 36.2 on .631 %TS [+12.0 rTS] (-1.3 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1971: vs Warriors = 27.8 on .528 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-1.7 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1977: vs Blazers = 30.3 on .660 %TS [+14.9 rTS] (-1.5 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)

[freethedevil]

1.a/b Lebron/Kareem

3. RUSSELL

We don't deal in half-points/half-votes. If you want a counted vote, you'll have to decide/specify [and alert me to your decision] who you want #1 and who you want #2.

1. lebron

2. kareem

3. russell

[homecourtloss]

MJ:

1986: vs. Celtics = 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS [+4.3 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1988: vs. Cavaliers = 45.2 ppg on .632 %TS [+9.4 rTS] (-2.0 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1988: vs. Pistons = 27.4 ppg on .549 %TS [+1.1 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Cavaliers = 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS [+6.1 rTS] (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1989: vs. Pistons = 29.7 ppg on .561 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1990: vs. Pistons = 32.1 ppg on .566 %TS [+2.9 rTS] (-4.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1991: vs. Pistons = 29.8 ppg on .646 %TS [+10.3 rTS] (-3.3 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1991: vs. Lakers = 31.2 ppg on .612 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
1992: vs. Knicks = 31.1 ppg on .539 %TS [+0.8 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1992: vs. Blazers = 35.8 ppg on .617 %TS [+8.6 rTS] (-4.0 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Heat = 30.0 ppg on .609 %TS [+6.7 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Knicks = 36.0 ppg on .534 %TS [-0.8 rTS] (-4.1 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Hawks = 26.6 ppg on .506 %TS [-3.0 rTS] (-4.4 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1998: vs. Pacers = 31.7 ppg on .556 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-3.4 rDrtg, 5th ranked defense)


LeBron:

2006: vs. Pistons = 26.6 ppg on .516 %TS [-2.0 rTS] (-3.1 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Pistons = 25.7 ppg on .537 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-2.3 rDRtg, 7th ranked defense)
2007: vs. Spurs = 22 ppg on .428 %TS [-11.3 rTS] (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2009: vs. Magic = 38.5 ppg on .591 %TS [+4.7 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2010: vs. Celtics = 26.8 ppg on .556 %TS [+1.3 rTS] (-3.8 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Bulls = 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS [+2.8 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2012: vs. Knicks = 27.8 ppg on .604 %TS [+7.7 rTS] (-3.6 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2012: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .587 %TS [+6.0 rTS] (-6.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Pacers = 29 ppg on .609 %TS [+7.4 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2013: vs. Spurs = 25.3 ppg on .529 %TS [-0.6 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2014: vs. Bobcats = 30.0 ppg on .671 %TS [+13.0 rTS] (-2.9 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Spurs = 28.2 ppg on .679 %TS [+13.8 rTS] (-4.3 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)
2015: vs. Hawks = 30.3 ppg on .506 %TS [-2.8 rTS] (-2.5 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2015: vs. Warriors = 35.8 ppg on .477 %TS [-5.7 rTS] (-4.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2016: vs. Hawks = 24.3 ppg on .573 %TS [+3.2 rTS] (-5.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2016: vs. Warriors = 29.7 ppg on .562 %TS [+2.1 rTS] (-2.6 rDRtg, 6th ranked defense)
2017: vs. Warriors = 33.6 ppg on .630 %TS [+7.8 rTS] (-4.8 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)
2018: vs. Raptors = 34.0 ppg on .579 %TS [+2.3 rTS] (-2.7 rDRtg, 5th ranked defense)
2018: vs. Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .610 %TS [+5.4 rTS] (-4.7 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

This is such great info, was there a way you did this quickly or was it manual work?

It pretty much jives with what I think about each player. Jordan in the second three-peat was a clear level off his pre-retirement years on offense, in large part due to less slashing. Also as much as people want to crap on LeBron for playing in a "weak" East, those teams were only weak because they were meh on offense. He's faced very good defensive competition. Every single year since 2011 he's faced 2 teams that were top 6 on defense except 2017, and 11 out of those 16 teams that were 6th or better were actually 3rd or better. I've considered Jordan far and away the GOAT scorer, but this suggests it's much closer than I originally thought.

If you look at eFG%, LeBron’s scoring against elite defenses look that much better than Jordan’s. Look at how many -6 defenses James faced and what he did to them post 2008.

[70sFan]

I think a lot of people would be surprised with Wilt's numbers compared in similar fashion. Would you like me to make it for Wilt and Shaq (and any other player you'd like to see)?

[drza]

I think it's fair to assume Russell would spend more time honing his perimeter offense. That said, I recall accounts of players like Shaq and Dwight practicing their free throws at length, but to no success. Is there a specific reason you are optimistic that Russell would develop an outside shot? My impression is effort and smarts only go so far to improving a player's shot. A lot of it comes naturally just like Russell's defensive decision making came naturally. I could be wrong but that's what I've gathered.

Also, 70sfan made a comparison between Bam and how Russell might play in today's game on offense. I like this comparison. Do you have any thoughts on Bam as a proxy for modern day Russell on offense?

Russell actually was willing to shoot from midrange, I've seen a lot of short midrange attempts from him (around FT line) when I started to collect footage from that era. I doubt he was efficient shooter though.

I think that Bam-level shooter would be his ceilling, but he was also far more athletic so his driving game would be probably more dangerous. He also had acceptable post player while Bam is terrible one.

I think that looking at peak Russell as slightly better offensive version of Bam is fair. We have to remember that Russell peaked as good offensive player in the early 1960s.

How confident are you in this?

Through the 60s he was typically both either the, or near the (a) worst ts% "starting" (i.e. big minutes) center and (b) lowest usage "starting" center in a given year (Thurmond starts taking TS% at the back end of the decade).

And the offenses weren't good.

I'm open to being wrong but I've always leaned cynical on Russell's offense (specifically the scoring/passing sides).

Replying to this one to address all three of the responses I got. First, Owly, I'm with you in not loving the "time machine" element. Any such discussion, by definition, will be fuzzy. In my original post that you quoted I tried to communicate both my lack of fervor for the method, as well as the parameters around which I was willing to be fuzzy.

But in a project like this, where a good segment of the group is flat out willing to give demerits based upon a player's era, then I don't think it's reasonable to do so without acknowledging that this, also, is a type of "time machining" where all of the negatives go toward the player in previous eras.

Focus on Russell with a jumpshot. My point was we know that Russell has inherent physical abilities that would put him conservatively in the 99th percentile of NBA players of any era. We also know that he had the basketball IQ to diagnose methods of producing winning basketball that was way ahead of his time. Another given, that I didn't mention but dovetails with Doc MJ's point that I'm pushing against, is that today's NBA player is compensated INCREDIBLY compared to in Russell's era, and that the sport itself is ubiquitous (to watch, to play, to experience) now in a way that it just wasn't in the 1940s and 50s as Russell was developing.

So. Am I to assume that if Russell came along in this era, with the same gifts that he naturally had, that he would play the exact same way as he did in the 50s and 60s? Just not feasible to me. Yes, some elements should translate, but for the most part I think his style would be very influenced by the times. I think he'd have grown up putting MUCH more effort having a working jumpshot as opposed to the sweeping hook that he favored in real-life. I do believe he'd have adapted his ball-handling/passing (which were strong given the way the game was played then) into something that would more reasonably work in today's era. And, given the presence of the tools and game he had then, I think a modernized version would still allow him to utterly dominate defensively, while having offensive skills that make sense to today's big man. And yes, the majority of players today with Russell's body type do develop at least some facility with a jumper.

As I mentioned before, I'm not projecting him to be Dirk. Someone mentioned Bam Adebayo...I think that's a reasonable ball-park on offense. I tried to wrap my mind around an offensive hybrid of Dwight Howard (explosive finishing around rim) and Draymond Green (comfortable handling the ball and setting up teammates, with a non-natural jumper that could at times be utilized as enough of a threat to create mismatches in the pick-and-play game).

Again, I'm not trying to peg an exact because the whole thing is fuzzy. My entire point was that I think he'd put in the work to be an offensive positive in today's era, because that is what winning would require even on top of dominant defense. And there's nothing about the Russell-that-was that suggests to me that he'd have been unable to diagnose what winning required, nor willing to do everything that was necessary to achieve it.

[70sFan]

Additionally, Lebron’s scoring and efficiency held up really well against very good to great defenses in the playoffs, much better than Jordan’s scoring and efficiency did.

That's not true, Jordan's scoring and efficiency was just fine agianst good to great defenses:

Here are culminative stats against -2.0 rDRtg defenses or better:

2008-20 LeBron James (128 games): 28.8 ppg on 48.5% FG, 35.1% 3FG, 73.6% FT and 57.5% TS (+3.42% rTS) in 41.9 mpg
1985-98 Michael Jordan (108 games): 32.4 ppg on 47.6% FG, 32.4% 3FG, 83.1% FT and 56.2% TS (+2.67% rTS) in 42.0 mpg

"Much better" is a huge overstatement...

Edit: for interested, I include Kareem's stats as well:

1970-81 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (56 games): 30.3 ppg on 52.1% FG, 72.3% FT, 55.1% TS (+3.75 rTS%) in 45.3 mpg

Against -2.0 rDrtg that might be true but go look at -4.0 rDrtg or -5.0 or -6.0. LeBron played against many more all time defenses.

Also, take a look at reFG%.

LeBron’s scoring efficiency against great defenses is on a tier higher than Jordan’s.

To be honest, I'm starting to consider Kareem and James over MJ as playoff scorers, although it's important to note that Jordan still has significant advantage in volume. We have to keep everything in mind and it's tough.