2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2020 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#181 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:13 am

RCM88x wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Although I don't agree with his methods, I can see why Harden is upset with the situation. Basically his team gets a new owner, in the middle of his prime, and prioritizes saving $$ over winning. Unfortunate situation for sure and I have non-issue to with him wanting off of the Titanic that is the Houston Rockets. He could go about it better though.


His owner isn't the actually reason for the issue though, and I say that as someone who thinks the owner is an idiot.

Harden ain't asking to leave because the team didn't resign Trevor Ariza a couple years ago, he's asking to leave because there is no hope left for being a serious contender in Houston, because the team gave up a ton of assets to get Westbrook in place of Paul because that's what Harden demanded, and when that inevitably proved to a low ceiling, Harden didn't want to live with the consequences.

I don't know how things will play out, it's entirely possible that Harden will get what he wants. But the next time the CBA is negotiated, owners are going to look at the Harden situation and say "Okay, time for another lock out."

I'm all for player empowerment, but it all goes to hell when someone uses their leverage so irresponsibly.


Do we really know if Harden was so sick of CP3 that he personally approved the Westbrook trade though? I agree they probably weren't getting along at the end of 2019, but Paul wasn't good in the playoffs. I don't think losing him was a massive step back honestly.

The problem was just that the trade itself was not a good one. Westbrook had a worse contact and a worse fit.

Anyways, the Houston issue started the second the ownership changed. They've slowly been drifting this way and I think everyone of us has seen the issues growing.

Ideally what owners would get from this is "if we mishandle our rosters our superstars will ask to leave". However owners obviously don't always prioritize wins and losses above all things, naturally.

Harden is a smart guy, he knows when his team has a chance and when it doesn't, and his efforts and behavior change based on those feelings (much like LeBron at times).


Huh? I'm not sure what you're uncertainty is.

Harden demanded Houston trade Chris Paul. Publicly. What is it you think the Rockets could get for that contract after that?

The problem wasn't so much that THAT was a bad trade, so much as that good trades were impossible after that.

And as far as approving the acquisition of Westbrook, you seriously think Morey & co didn't ask Harden what he thought about Westbrook? I mean, the only reason they traded Paul was because of Harden, and Westbrook was Harden's former teammate. Pretty dang sure they ran it by him.

I think you need to take a step back here because you seem to have room for only one person to blame and have chosen to blame the owner. But while the owner is a nincompoop, he's really not responsible for the big stuff here, Harden is.
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Re: 2020 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#182 » by RCM88x » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:22 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
His owner isn't the actually reason for the issue though, and I say that as someone who thinks the owner is an idiot.

Harden ain't asking to leave because the team didn't resign Trevor Ariza a couple years ago, he's asking to leave because there is no hope left for being a serious contender in Houston, because the team gave up a ton of assets to get Westbrook in place of Paul because that's what Harden demanded, and when that inevitably proved to a low ceiling, Harden didn't want to live with the consequences.

I don't know how things will play out, it's entirely possible that Harden will get what he wants. But the next time the CBA is negotiated, owners are going to look at the Harden situation and say "Okay, time for another lock out."

I'm all for player empowerment, but it all goes to hell when someone uses their leverage so irresponsibly.


Do we really know if Harden was so sick of CP3 that he personally approved the Westbrook trade though? I agree they probably weren't getting along at the end of 2019, but Paul wasn't good in the playoffs. I don't think losing him was a massive step back honestly.

The problem was just that the trade itself was not a good one. Westbrook had a worse contact and a worse fit.

Anyways, the Houston issue started the second the ownership changed. They've slowly been drifting this way and I think everyone of us has seen the issues growing.

Ideally what owners would get from this is "if we mishandle our rosters our superstars will ask to leave". However owners obviously don't always prioritize wins and losses above all things, naturally.

Harden is a smart guy, he knows when his team has a chance and when it doesn't, and his efforts and behavior change based on those feelings (much like LeBron at times).


Huh? I'm not sure what you're uncertainty is.

Harden demanded Houston trade Chris Paul. Publicly. What is it you think the Rockets could get for that contract after that?

The problem wasn't so much that THAT was a bad trade, so much as that good trades were impossible after that.

And as far as approving the acquisition of Westbrook, you seriously think Morey & co didn't ask Harden what he thought about Westbrook? I mean, the only reason they traded Paul was because of Harden, and Westbrook was Harden's former teammate. Pretty dang sure they ran it by him.

I think you need to take a step back here because you seem to have room for only one person to blame and have chosen to blame the owner. But while the owner is a nincompoop, he's really not responsible for the big stuff here, Harden is.



Sure, I think he does deserve blame regardless of what blessings he gave or didn't give. Ultimately I just understand his position in that it appears the ownership and front office has significantly hampered the team over the past 2 and a half years, often times out of financial motivation, and over time has valued Harden's opinions less and less.

I think he probably was okay with playing with Westbrook, but did they have him approve all of the terms of the trade? I don't think they consulted him on those details, that would be pretty strange.

The fact that Houston didn't hire Harden's choice at HC makes me feel that he probably hasn't blessed any of the teams moves in the recent months ether.
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Re: 2020 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#183 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:45 am

RCM88x wrote:Sure, I think he does deserve blame regardless of what blessings he gave or didn't give. Ultimately I just understand his position in that it appears the ownership and front office has significantly hampered the team over the past 2 and a half years, often times out of financial motivation, and over time has valued Harden's opinions less and less.

I think he probably was okay with playing with Westbrook, but did they have him approve all of the terms of the trade? I don't think they consulted him on those details, that would be pretty strange.

The fact that Houston didn't hire Harden's choice at HC makes me feel that he probably hasn't blessed any of the teams moves in the recent months ether.


Are you trying to blame the failure of the Paul-Westbrook trade on something other than the fact that they let go of Paul and acquired Westbrook? If so, don't over think it. It was a bad trade because of those two things, and Harden most definitely was the one pushing for both of those things.

Was it also bad to include draft picks? Of course, but OKC had Houston over a barrel because the whole basketball world knew Harden wanted Paul gone.

Harden made all this happen. Stop trying to look past the obvious.
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Re: 2020 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#184 » by eminence » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:55 am

Feels wild to be watching basketball already again.
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Re: 2020 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#185 » by Peregrine01 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:58 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:Kyrie deciding not to speak to the media in favor of cryptic Instagram posts and already stirring up a media frenzy of distraction? I fear for Nash’s future as a head coach...


I really, really wonder what Nash was thinking signing up for this. It's possible it will be enough of a success in the first season that Nash will have some coaching accomplishments under his belt, but I really don't know how you keep someone happy when their understanding of the world around the diverges as much as Kyrie does.

Kyrie's understanding of people is about as good as his understanding of physics.


I don’t think Nash is all that fearful of failure and has always wanted to coach so he views this as a challenge. On the other hand, as a huge fan of his, I’m nervous for him.
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Re: 2020 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#186 » by Peregrine01 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:00 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:I'm surprised Kyrie only got fined $25k.


I believe the fine doubles every subsequent time he does it.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#187 » by Goudelock » Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:38 pm

Gasol's throwing dimes in a high-low alignment with AD is going to be so much fun.
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Re: 2020 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#188 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:54 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Sure, I think he does deserve blame regardless of what blessings he gave or didn't give. Ultimately I just understand his position in that it appears the ownership and front office has significantly hampered the team over the past 2 and a half years, often times out of financial motivation, and over time has valued Harden's opinions less and less.

I think he probably was okay with playing with Westbrook, but did they have him approve all of the terms of the trade? I don't think they consulted him on those details, that would be pretty strange.

The fact that Houston didn't hire Harden's choice at HC makes me feel that he probably hasn't blessed any of the teams moves in the recent months ether.


Are you trying to blame the failure of the Paul-Westbrook trade on something other than the fact that they let go of Paul and acquired Westbrook? If so, don't over think it. It was a bad trade because of those two things, and Harden most definitely was the one pushing for both of those things.

Was it also bad to include draft picks? Of course, but OKC had Houston over a barrel because the whole basketball world knew Harden wanted Paul gone.

Harden made all this happen. Stop trying to look past the obvious.


Im also fairly sure harden would be consulted for westbrook lol, considerinf their history and how that situation unfolded

Wasnt there a report of the rockets never saying no to harden as well?
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#189 » by ShotCreator » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:36 am

Wanna ho on record saying I think the Rockets are at worst 3rd best team in the league right now.

As crazy as it sounds.

I’m really high on pretty much all the new acquisitions except boogie who I’m only lukewarm on.

And I was really low on all the guys they’ve dumped except RoCo who got figured out in the PS anyway with his inability to guard on ball as effectively as all his amazing help defense.

Ironically hunting for RoCo kills his impact.

Wood I think is a top 20 talent who got the Jokic/Draymond/Gobert treatment to the most extreme degree, Nwaba’s what Caruso would be if not for LA making his very solid play well known. Nwaba’s a beast.


And John Wall looks pretty much fantastic athletically. Long time Wizards scout says he looks like he’s about to have a peak season.


Silas is well known. And well regarded.

I really wouldn’t be shocked if they just came out of the gate dominating, ad cooled down after a while. The whole roster and environment of all these unproven players and a disgruntled Harden/Tucker might even work in their favor.

My gut is screaming they’re gonna surprise people. I’m gonna be watching closely.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#190 » by Statlanta » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:54 am

Christian Wood is the most overrated player on this site.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#191 » by toodles23 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:04 am

I can't think of any player who's screwed around with his shooting form as much as Giannis. Looks totally different once again this season, 0-6 at the FT line tonight.

It really sucks what Jason Kidd did to his shot. His form looked decent enough and pretty fluid in his rookie year but after Kidd's "help" it got much more stiff and inconsistent.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#192 » by Bidofo » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:13 am

ShotCreator wrote:Wanna ho on record saying I think the Rockets are at worst 3rd best team in the league right now.

By "at worst" are you implying there's even a sliver of chance that they could be the second or first best team? Honestly Wall's kinda been an empty stats player his whole career and the roster is terrible defensively.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#193 » by ShotCreator » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:47 am

Bidofo wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:Wanna ho on record saying I think the Rockets are at worst 3rd best team in the league right now.

By "at worst" are you implying there's even a sliver of chance that they could be the second or first best team? Honestly Wall's kinda been an empty stats player his whole career and the roster is terrible defensively.

Wall’s not even a stats player. His stats are not that good to begin with. Sub 20 PER guy except 2017.

But he actually gets better in the postseason and all his impact metrics are good there. The style of play John Wall has is of substance. High level playmaking slashing guards are offensively potent.


And the roster isn’t even close to terrible on defense.

Tucker, Nwaba, Wood, Harden, House, that’s 5 plus defenders.

Cousins is neutral at worst. Wall is a slight negative. Gordon and Mclemore suck but Mclemore lineups quietly killed all 2020 season. His RS and PS on/offs were pretty high.

They have shooting, playmaking, athleticism, and an absolute monster to lead them. I think they’ll kill everybody. We’ll see I think. I don’t believe Houston’s offers are even close to good enough to rush a trade.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#194 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:55 am

ShotCreator wrote:
Bidofo wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:Wanna ho on record saying I think the Rockets are at worst 3rd best team in the league right now.

By "at worst" are you implying there's even a sliver of chance that they could be the second or first best team? Honestly Wall's kinda been an empty stats player his whole career and the roster is terrible defensively.

Wall’s not even a stats player. His stats are not that good to begin with. Sub 20 PER guy except 2017.

But he actually gets better in the postseason and all his impact metrics are good there. The style of play John Wall has is of substance. High level playmaking slashing guards are offensively potent.


And the roster isn’t even close to terrible on defense.

Tucker, Nwaba, Wood, Harden, House, that’s 5 plus defenders.

Cousins is neutral at worst. Wall is a slight negative. Gordon and Mclemore suck but Mclemore lineups quietly killed all 2020 season. His RS and PS on/offs were pretty high.

They have shooting, playmaking, athleticism, and an absolute monster to lead them. I think they’ll kill everybody. We’ll see I think. I don’t believe Houston’s offers are even close to good enough to rush a trade.


Hes coming off an achilles tear


The rockets were maybe 6th last year, clearly behind denver/clippers/lakers/bucks/heat. Now they lost covington who was prolly their second highest impact player, and i doubt wall>westbrook with his injury, not to mention a new coach and the chemistry is going to suck
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#195 » by Bidofo » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:53 am

ShotCreator wrote:Wall’s not even a stats player. His stats are not that good to begin with. Sub 20 PER guy except 2017.

But he actually gets better in the postseason and all his impact metrics are good there. The style of play John Wall has is of substance. High level playmaking slashing guards are offensively potent.

Eh, you'd have to assume that 1) Wall comes back being a similar level player, and 2) the Rockets even make the playoffs lol. I think there's a very good chance Harden gets traded, but even if he doesn't, the competition is brutal this year and Harden has already tanked the team's chemistry. I think the Lakers/Clippers/Nuggets/Mavs will all finish higher considering they all got better/were already better and stayed the same. The other locks to make it are the Suns (who I'm pretty high on, I can see them top 4), Jazz, and Blazers imo. There's just so much that can go wrong for the Rockets.

ShotCreator wrote:And the roster isn’t even close to terrible on defense.

Tucker, Nwaba, Wood, Harden, House, that’s 5 plus defenders.

Cousins is neutral at worst. Wall is a slight negative. Gordon and Mclemore suck but Mclemore lineups quietly killed all 2020 season. His RS and PS on/offs were pretty high.

Yea maybe terrible was harsh, they probably won't be bottom 10 or anything. But that lineup isn't getting it done against the best offenses in the West. I like Wood (picked him up for fantasy basketball) but I don't know enough about his defense. And Cousins is most definitely gonna be a negative lol I don't think he's been a positive for a single season in his career and he's coming off injury too. If he's starting at the 5 with Wood at the 4, it could get ugly.

ShotCreator wrote:They have shooting, playmaking, athleticism, and an absolute monster to lead them. I think they’ll kill everybody. We’ll see I think. I don’t believe Houston’s offers are even close to good enough to rush a trade.

Yea this all depends on what Houston does. Idk when Harden's contract ends but he's already made it clear he won't re-sign so the Rockets have to trade him eventually. I actually wanted him to get to the Sixers, I think that'd make the East reeeeally interesting, but the carryjob and numbers he'd put up in Houston would be epic too. This all feels like the Dwight saga all over again lol.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#196 » by Jordan Syndrome » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:44 pm

Bidofo wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:Wanna ho on record saying I think the Rockets are at worst 3rd best team in the league right now.


Honestly Wall's kinda been an empty stats player his whole career.


Not really. Wall was quite impactful on a mediocre roster from 2014-2017.

2017 was the only season Washington put proper pieces around Wall (3+D wings and Beal started to grow into his own) and the team was 7th in Ortg.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#197 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:08 pm

Wall an empty stats player?

He doesn't even have good stats for an all-nba player, and he is a pretty good post season player. If anything Wall has been underrated for most of his career.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#198 » by limbo » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:07 pm

Wall is a worse mid-range shooting, better defensive version of Westbrook...

Strengths: Elite playmaking, high motor, useful on-ball iso scorer, decent defender

Weaknesses: Mediocre finisher, can't shoot, inadequate off-ball, always injured

When it comes down to Westbrook vs. Wall it's basically which one of these guys can shoot well enough from outside to not be completely terrible on any given season... and not make dumb decisions on offense.

And again, the problem with both is their impact relies heavily on their athleticism/shape (health-related) and their rhythm (playing-time related)... And they are not getting any younger or healthier...

I think the days of these guys being all-star level players, dominating the league through sheer physical prowess and motor are long gone...

Guys like Wall, Westbrook, Rose all end up in the same basket... I mean, Westbrook can still average 28/8/7... which are insane numbers on paper, but dude is a resource sponge and he uses those resources extremely ineffectively overall. Not to mention the defense these guys are playing is horrible (well, like i said, i think Wall was decent for a guard, but that was like 3 years ago... who knows what he is now)...

I would take Wall as a bench role player... MAYBE a starter on a team like the Lakers, which are filled with talent in other starting spots (including arguably two of the best players in the league)... but, I'm not banking on Wall being some sort of co-star or even 3rd option on any team which strives to be serious contender... That's fantasy land.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#199 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:03 pm

limbo wrote:Wall is a worse mid-range shooting, better defensive version of Westbrook...

Strengths: Elite playmaking, high motor, useful on-ball iso scorer, decent defender

Weaknesses: Mediocre finisher, can't shoot, inadequate off-ball, always injured

When it comes down to Westbrook vs. Wall it's basically which one of these guys can shoot well enough from outside to not be completely terrible on any given season... and not make dumb decisions on offense.

And again, the problem with both is their impact relies heavily on their athleticism/shape (health-related) and their rhythm (playing-time related)... And they are not getting any younger or healthier...

I think the days of these guys being all-star level players, dominating the league through sheer physical prowess and motor are long gone...

Guys like Wall, Westbrook, Rose all end up in the same basket... I mean, Westbrook can still average 28/8/7... which are insane numbers on paper, but dude is a resource sponge and he uses those resources extremely ineffectively overall. Not to mention the defense these guys are playing is horrible (well, like i said, i think Wall was decent for a guard, but that was like 3 years ago... who knows what he is now)...

I would take Wall as a bench role player... MAYBE a starter on a team like the Lakers, which are filled with talent in other starting spots (including arguably two of the best players in the league)... but, I'm not banking on Wall being some sort of co-star or even 3rd option on any team which strives to be serious contender... That's fantasy land.


Westbrook was pretty fine after he acclimated, and had that eureka moment, before the bubble where he was hobbled, it was like 20 games too
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#200 » by Peregrine01 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:06 pm

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30528130/james-harden-houston-rockets-breaking-point

Nothing in here was all that surprising to me which makes me perplexed why so many lay the lion's share of fault at the feet of Fertita. It was clearly Harden who was the ultimate decision maker on all the major moves that the Rockets made.

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