LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0

[prolific passer]

Bulls had some good positions in the drafts in the 80s after Jordan but drafted garbage players for the most part. 87 was the only good one Krause had.

[dcstanley]

Bulls had some good positions in the drafts in the 80s after Jordan but drafted garbage players for the most part. 87 was the only good one Krause had.

They went 2/6. The 2003-2010 Cavs went 0/1 in lottery picks. Fair to assume the Cavs would have been heavy favorites if they had as many chances to draft players as good as Pippen and Grant.

[prolific passer]

Bulls had some good positions in the drafts in the 80s after Jordan but drafted garbage players for the most part. 87 was the only good one Krause had.

They went 2/6. The 2003-2010 Cavs went 0/1 in lottery picks. Fair to assume the Cavs would have been heavy favorites if they had as many chances to draft players as good as Pippen and Grant.

Cavs drafted luke Jackson over players like Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, Jameer Nelson, and Kevin Martin as well as a few more. So they had their opportunity to improve. Lebron had 2 15ppg scorers down low in his rookie season with Boozer and Big Z. The cavs were playoff bound in 04-05 but went on a massive choke job after the all star break and missed the playoffs. Lebron put up 27 7 7. Probably my favorite Lebron season. Imagine if he had a guy like Kevin Martin alongside him.

[Ballerhogger]

Bulls had some good positions in the drafts in the 80s after Jordan but drafted garbage players for the most part. 87 was the only good one Krause had.

They went 2/6. The 2003-2010 Cavs went 0/1 in lottery picks. Fair to assume the Cavs would have been heavy favorites if they had as many chances to draft players as good as Pippen and Grant.

Cavs drafted luke Jackson over players like Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, Jameer Nelson, and Kevin Martin as well as a few more. So they had their opportunity to improve. Lebron had 2 15ppg scorers down low in his rookie season with Boozer and Big Z. The cavs were playoff bound in 04-05 but went on a massive choke job after the all star break and missed the playoffs. Lebron put up 27 7 7. Probably my favorite Lebron season. Imagine if he had a guy like Kevin Martin alongside him.

Agreed the cavs had thier chances . His finals run his second best player was …. Gibson or big z .it was bad .

[Ballerhogger]

Name one year Jordan took trash to the finals. I’ll wait .

[migya]

Name one year Jordan took trash to the finals. I’ll wait .

Jordan's competition was far better. Explains everything.

[ty 4191]

Name one year Jordan took trash to the finals. I’ll wait .

Jordan's competition was far better. Explains everything.

Here's the counterargument to Lebron playing in a Joke Conference from 2004-2018:

1991-1998 NBA (Jordan's Finals Years):
--Because of drastic expansion from 1988-1995, the NBA had TEN of 30 teams had an overall winning percentage below .400.

--5 below .350.

--Three below .300!

2007-2020 NBA (Lebron's Finals Years):
--FOUR of 30 teams had a winning percentage below .400.

--1 below .300.

--Zero below .300.

[ty 4191]

1988-1995 Expansion Teams, prior to reaching the playoffs, along with the Bulls' record against them prior to each team making the playoffs:

Charlotte Hornets:
First Playoff Appearance: 1993

Overall Game Record, 1988–1993: 140–270 (.341)

Bulls Record vs. Hornets: 18-3

Miami Heat:
First playoff appearance: 1992

Overall game record, 1988–1992: 95–233 (.289)

Bulls Record vs. Heat: 17-0

Orlando Magic:
First playoff appearance: 1994

Overall game record, 1989-1994: 106–249 (.299)

Bulls Record vs. Magic: 13-6

Timberwolves:
First playoff appearance: 1997

Overall game record, 1989-1997: 192–464 (.293)

Bulls Record vs. Timberwolves: 16-0

Raptors:
First playoff appearance: 2000

Overall game record, 1995–2000: 135–243 (.357)

Bulls Record vs. Raptors: 10-2

Grizzlies:
First playoff appearance: 2004

Overall game record, 1995–2003: 154–472 (.244)

Jordan's Teams vs. Grizzlies (1996-1998): 6-0

Bulls Overall Record Versus Expansion Teams: 80-11 (.879)

[ty 4191]

Bulls overall record versus Hornets, Heat, Magic, Timberwolves, Grizzlies, Raptors (1988-1998, including playoffs):

113-22 (.837)

Versus Non Expansion Teams: 653-293: (.690)

[ty 4191]

Lebron faced better teams in the NBA Finals. Overall. Period.

It's not even close.

Sources:
https://www.sportscasting.com/heres-the-real-difference-in-the-nba-finals-records-of-michael-jordan-and-lebron-james/

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/betting-odds-history-1990s-chicago-bulls-dynasty-michael-jordan

Jordan's teams were favorites to win every single NBA Finals he played in. Lebron's teams were only favorites 30% of his 10 Finals.

1991: -200 favorites
1992:-250 favorites
1993: -240 favorites
1996: -950 favorites
1997: -600 favorites
1998: -115 favorites

So now let’s look at what LeBron James’ teams were expected to do in the NBA Finals.

2007 Cleveland Cavaliers: +360 underdogs
2011 Miami Heat: -175 favorites
2012 Miami Heat: +155 underdogs
2013 Miami Heat: -220 favorites
2014 Miami Heat: +135 underdogs
2015 Cleveland Cavaliers: +190 underdogs
2016 Cleveland Cavaliers: +180 underdogs
2017 Cleveland Cavaliers: +250 underdogs
2018 Cleveland Cavaliers: +688 underdogs
2020 Los Angeles Lakers: -350 favorites

(So, yes, perhaps, 4-6 in 17 seasons is more impressive than 6-0 in 15 seasons.)

[Colbinii]

Name one year Jordan took trash to the finals. I’ll wait .

Jordan's competition was far better. Explains everything.

Prove it.

[Gooner]

Lebron faced better teams in the NBA Finals. Overall. Period.

It's not even close.

Sources:
https://www.sportscasting.com/heres-the-real-difference-in-the-nba-finals-records-of-michael-jordan-and-lebron-james/

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nba/betting-odds-history-1990s-chicago-bulls-dynasty-michael-jordan

Jordan's teams were favorites to win every single NBA Finals he played in. Lebron's teams were only favorites 30% of his 10 Finals.

1991: -200 favorites
1992:-250 favorites
1993: -240 favorites
1996: -950 favorites
1997: -600 favorites
1998: -115 favorites

So now let’s look at what LeBron James’ teams were expected to do in the NBA Finals.

2007 Cleveland Cavaliers: +360 underdogs
2011 Miami Heat: -175 favorites
2012 Miami Heat: +155 underdogs
2013 Miami Heat: -220 favorites
2014 Miami Heat: +135 underdogs
2015 Cleveland Cavaliers: +190 underdogs
2016 Cleveland Cavaliers: +180 underdogs
2017 Cleveland Cavaliers: +250 underdogs
2018 Cleveland Cavaliers: +688 underdogs
2020 Los Angeles Lakers: -350 favorites

(So, yes, perhaps, 4-6 in 17 seasons is more impressive than 6-0 in 15 seasons.)

That's a weak argument, MJ himself had the biggest impact on these odds. LeBron doesn't move the needle as much.

[G35]

I drag the EC for the past 20 years because they sucked but the strength of conference does not really matter. You play who you play...you cannot magically make a conference competitive.

There are several aspects to this argument:

Jordan's Bulls in the 90's
- agreed that the Bulls competition in the 90's was not THAT great...they were good but not great because they did not have the upper tier stars
- Knicks - Ewing, Heat - Mourning, Magic - Shaq, Pacers - Reggie, Cavs - Price/Daugherty

compared to the West

- Jazz - Stockton/Malone, Rockets - Hakeem, Suns - Barkley, Sonics - Payton/Kemp, Spurs - Robinson

The group from the West is better because their stars are better, the only star I would take from the East was Shaq and he was young. People talk about Hakeem destroying DRob in the WCF's but that series went 4-2, Hakeem swept Shaq and the Magic in the finals that year.

So agreed, that Jordan's competition in the East was not the greatest...it was about average depending on the year.

Then you take Lebron and the East...it was even an even worse separation between the Heat/Cavs and the rest of the conference. At least with Jordan and the Bulls they got pushed to six or seven games some years. But look at how many times Lebron's teams lost only one or two games throughout the Eastern conference playoffs starting in 2011 with his first manufactured team:

Heat run
2011: 12-3
2012: 12-6
2013: 12-4
2014: 12-3

Cavs run
2015: 12-2
2016: 12-2
2017: 12-1
2018: 12-6

As you can see Lebron's teams dominated the East and it was not even close, especially his 2nd stint with the Cavs. There was a huge separation between Lebron's teams and the rest of the conference. Why? Because the East had 2nd tier stars...there were no consistent 1st or 2nd team All NBA players in the East.

Pacers - Paul George
Raptors - Demar Derozan
Hawks - Al Horford
Bulls - Derrick Rose
Celtics - aging big three and Ray Allen joined Lebron in Miami

So these numbers may be hard to grasp without some context. So lets look at the West and how the Warriors did during that same time period in WCP:

2015: 12-3
2016: 12-5 (73 win GOAT season)
2017: 12-0
2018: 12-5

There is only one year where the Warriors dominated the West in the playoffs and it wasn't 2016. That is because there was more talent in the West:

Clippers - CP3/Griffin
Rockets - Harden
Thunder - KD/WB


But at the end of the day none of the conference strength matters. Yes, I complain about the inequities between the East and West but what can you do about it...that's the format. Until they decide to change it, you play who you play.

The bottom line is that even with Jordan having a relatively easier run to the finals...and pay attention, this is the most important part of the whole post...Jordan won every time he went to the finals. Period. He won. Screw the projections...screw what should have happened...what might have happened. He won every time.

That validates everything else. If Jordan was blasting through the East and then losing to the Suns, the Sonics, or the Jazz, then there would be validity that you can question his accomplishments. But he did not lose, he won who showed up.

Lebron's finals appearances can be questioned that his teams might not have even been the 2nd or 3rd best teams because he lost in the finals...a lot. That means other WC teams can say, "We didn't beat the Spurs or the Warriors, but we could have beaten the Heat or the Cavaliers."

If Lebron had a better finals record or even a competitive finals record...its not just the 4-6 record. Its how he got to 4-6, in some of those finals he was completely outclassed:

2007 - lost 4-0 to Spurs...should not have been there...indicating weak Eastern conference
2011 - lost 4-2 to Mavericks....this was an upset, no doubt about it
2014 - lost 4-1 to Spurs....revenge series and the Spurs outclassed the Heat in a rematch
2017 - lost 4-1 to Warriors....outclassed
2018 - lost 4-0 to Warriors....demolished

Those are five series, where four of them Lebron's teams were a step below the competition and one where his team underperformed and was upset.

Then you look at the other series that could have gone either way. There are many people who believe the Spurs should have won in 2013 if not for Popovich deciding to take Tim Duncan out of the game and they cannot secure the rebound on a James missed 3ptr that ends up in Ray Allen's hands and he clinches the game.

Also the 2016 series is a feather for Lebron in upsetting a 73 win team and coming back down from 3-1, which no other team had ever done, but there were also significant injuries/suspensions that helped create that.

So bottom line is you can look at the cup half full and say that Lebron could have won more series, but luck was also on Lebron's side in at least two series. So I think he's right where he should be and trying to change the narrative to say that Lebron had tougher competition ignores that Lebron's teams just were not good enough......

[dcstanley]

Name one year Jordan took trash to the finals. I’ll wait .

Jordan's competition was far better. Explains everything.

Nope.

[Djoker]

Michael Jordan

Wins Against 60+ Win Opponents: 7
Wins Against 55+ Win Opponents: 13
Wins Against 50+ Win Opponents: 20
Wins Against Sub-50 Win Opponents: 10

Wins Against 7+ SRS Opponents: 3
Wins against 6+ SRS Opponents: 7
Wins Against 5+ SRS Opponents: 14
Wins Against 4+ SRS Opponents: 15

Average Opponent Beat: 52.1 wins +3.71 SRS
Average Finals Opponent Beat: 61.2 wins +6.84 SRS

Lebron James

Wins Against 60+ Win Opponents: 3
Wins Against 55+ Win Opponents: 10
Wins Against 50+ Win Opponents: 18
Win Against Sub-50 Win Opponents: 21

Wins Against 7+ SRS Opponents: 2
Wins against 6+ SRS Opponents: 5
Wins Against 5+ SRS Opponents: 5
Wins Against 4+ SRS Opponents: 8

Average Opponent Beat: 49.0 wins +2.25 SRS
Average Finals Opponent Beat: 59.5 wins +6.51 SRS

[Bidofo]

Then you take Lebron and the East...it was even an even worse separation between the Heat/Cavs and the rest of the conference. At least with Jordan and the Bulls they got pushed to six or seven games some years. But look at how many times Lebron's teams lost only one or two games throughout the Eastern conference playoffs starting in 2011 with his first manufactured team:

Heat run
2011: 12-3
2012: 12-6
2013: 12-4
2014: 12-3

Cavs run
2015: 12-2
2016: 12-2
2017: 12-1
2018: 12-6

As you can see Lebron's teams dominated the East and it was not even close, especially his 2nd stint with the Cavs.

This is objectively drivel.

Jordan's 6 title runs
1991: 11-1
1992: 11-5
1993: 11-2
1996: 11-1
1997: 11-2
1998: 11-4

LeBron total: 96-27, 78%, 4 game 7s, 3 times with <=2 wins
Jordan total: 66-15, 81.5%, 2 game 7s, 4 times with <=2 wins (note: first rounds were best of 5 all 6 years)

Not that this record means anything by itself. You could draw whatever conclusion makes Jordan look better whether he had the better record or not. Jordan has a better record = he dominated his competition unlike LeBron, Jordan has worse record = LeBron faced easier competition so he was able to beat on weak teams. It's just confirmation bias that ignores everything about the title runs. And I think it's pretty clear that Jordan faced tougher competition in his conference, I'm not sure anyone would deny that, but this reasoning just sounds like some propaganda piece that is completely unnecessary and a huge disservice.

The bottom line is that even with Jordan having a relatively easier run to the finals...and pay attention, this is the most important part of the whole post...Jordan won every time he went to the finals. Period. He won. Screw the projections...screw what should have happened...what might have happened. He won every time.

"Screw all the context, screw roster constructions and injuries, screw the fact Jordan was always favored in every Finals...

If Lebron had a better finals record or even a competitive finals record...its not just the 4-6 record. Its how he got to 4-6, in some of those finals he was completely outclassed:

2007 - lost 4-0 to Spurs...should not have been there...indicating weak Eastern conference
2011 - lost 4-2 to Mavericks....this was an upset, no doubt about it
2014 - lost 4-1 to Spurs....revenge series and the Spurs outclassed the Heat in a rematch
2017 - lost 4-1 to Warriors....outclassed
2018 - lost 4-0 to Warriors....demolished

Those are five series, where four of them Lebron's teams were a step below the competition and one where his team underperformed and was upset.

But the 2007 Cavs went 12-4 through the east so...that's at least a tougher conference than 4 of Jordan's runs, right?

And what is your conclusion from the statement that LeBron's teams were a step below in 2014, 2017, and 2018 against 3 of the GOAT teams? That it somehow reflects his performance? Do you think Jordan would have done better, let alone win any of them? Jordan was just going to make the corpse of the 2014 Heat play better defense with some curse words and his will to win? Yes, I'm sure that would cover most or all of the 16 ppg they lost by! Maybe he can teach Love a few things and make him a plus on defense and not completely neutered by Green and KD in the Finals too.

I have a theory that the more you dumb down and simplify the GOAT debate, the more impressive Jordan looks. His career is just too storybook and does everything that your average fan enjoys. It could be part of the reason why there is such hesitancy to even put LeBron on the same tier with him in mass media/among your average fan despite the evidence that at the very least puts them in the same class.

[migya]

Name one year Jordan took trash to the finals. I’ll wait .

Jordan's competition was far better. Explains everything.

Nope.

Yes it was and the posts above show it.

Besides the Warriors with Durant, Lebron's finals opponents were all weaker than Jordan's. The 2016 Warriors were dependent so much on Curry and Klay carrying them offensively. Most players on that team left the nba within a couple of seasons after they left them.

The 91 Lakers were only the weakest Jordan faced because Worthy and Scott had injuries. That team would've been stronger than Mavs, OKC, Heat and arguably Spurs and 2015/16 Warriors. Sam Perkins and Divac were better than any big all those teams had.

92 Portland had second mvp Drexler who was better, including defensively, than Nowitzki, Durant, Curry and at that point Duncan. Porter was more effective than Kidd, Westbrook, Ginobili, and Klay.

93 Phoenix had mvp Barkley, allstar and great defender Majerle, KJ, loaded team.

96 Sonics had no real superstars, Payton wasn't quite yet, but they were loaded. Kemp, Schrempf, Hawkins, Perkins, McMillan.

96/97 Utah had Dream Teamers Stockton and mvp Malone. Hornacek and very well coached team that won over 60 games.

[HomoSapien]

I don’t think it’s impressive, TBH. Reasons being:

1. He played in an incredibly weak ECF (including DRose’s injury).
2. He gamed the system in a way that weakened competition.

Getting to the finals 10 times in a nutshell of course is impressive, but when you examine it it’s hard for me to understand why anyone would say it’s equal to MJ going 6-0. It just isn’t.

[mysticOscar]

It's not equally impressive. Once MJ started winning, he had this aura of invincibility. That's the difference.

2 3peats is harder than 4-6.

If it's 4-6 is more impressive, then majority would think so. LeBron would still not be hungry chasing MJ.

Lebrons 4-6 record is incredible no doubts about it, but if u ask him which career he would take..his or MJ, I bet he would say MJ.

I would bet 99% of players would choose MJ career over LBJ

[G35]

And what is your conclusion from the statement that LeBron's teams were a step below in 2014, 2017, and 2018 against 3 of the GOAT teams? That it somehow reflects his performance? Do you think Jordan would have done better, let alone win any of them? Jordan was just going to make the corpse of the 2014 Heat play better defense with some curse words and his will to win? Yes, I'm sure that would cover most or all of the 16 ppg they lost by! Maybe he can teach Love a few things and make him a plus on defense and not completely neutered by Green and KD in the Finals too.

I have a theory that the more you dumb down and simplify the GOAT debate, the more impressive Jordan looks. His career is just too storybook and does everything that your average fan enjoys. It could be part of the reason why there is such hesitancy to even put LeBron on the same tier with him in mass media/among your average fan despite the evidence that at the very least puts them in the same class.

You are conflating issues...but that is what many people do.

Lebron's finals record = Lebron's "goodness" as a player

Jordan's finals record = Jordan's "goodness as a player

Your finals record is not about your individual greatness. When you get into how great a player is in totality (and this where you are not dumbing it down) is how well did said player blend his talents with the rest of his teammates.

See people look at winning as one category, when it is not.

Winning is the final summary of a season, overcoming the obstacles that are a part of every year:
- injuries
- chemistry or lack thereof
- coaching
- leadership
- competition
- rule changes
- bias/favoritism
- complacency
- motivation

All these things occur in every season...each season has unique challenges that you have to overcome. Now Lebron may be equal or better than Jordan or anyone else that has played the game, but you have to show it. In a TEAM sport, your individual numbers do not matter. A lot of players have great individual numbers, Jordan and Lebron are not the only players to have great individual numbers. Anyone can put up great numbers, look at Giannis, he has great numbers...I don't think he's better than Jordan or Lebron.

Before Jordan started winning championship, take Jordan's first six seasons, he had ATG individual numbers...no one cares except the stat nerds, who fantasize about numbers. The fans do not care about individual numbers...they want their team to win. And this is another thing, we have become more materialistic and narcissistic but remember this entertainment.

Let me repeat, this game is entertainment....it is primarily done for the fans. If the players were not getting paid as well as they do, many players would not play this game. If players were getting $5K a week, which is a nice salary for 95% of the world, many would not put in the time and effort that it takes to get to the NBA. This is for the fans and the fans care about titles more than anything else.

As we have seen even with this current Lakers team that is struggling, and Lebron is having injuries, many fans have gone the rationalization route..."Well at least we won one title with Lebron because the future looks like trash". That says it all about what fans truly care about. No one is talking about Lebron's stats with the Lakers, it is all about titles.

What many posters get confused is that Lebron has no agency in how his teams were built and thus how they performed.

In a vacuum, Lebron has had some of the most talented teams ever assembled...on paper these are ATG teams. But when it comes time for them to perform, they do not live up to their individual talents.

That is the difference between Lebron and Jordan...Lebron and Magic...Lebron and Russell....Lebron and KAJ. These players were able to be the favorites in the finals. Why? Because they overcame all those obstacles that I listed earlier. They were able to get their teammates to perform at a level Lebron cannot get his teammates to perform.

Why was Jordan able to always be the favorite and Lebron was not? Even with all the greater player movement and Lebron's unquestioned power in the league. Pippen was not some can't miss talent coming out of college. Pippen quit in the middle of the Detroit series with migraines. Pippen refused to go in a game because he was upset a play was not called for him. Don't act like it was all easy for Jordan. It took years for Pippen to develop, that is why the Bulls became stronger because they stayed the course.

That is where we do not dumb it down...start looking at why Lebron was never able to develop the sort of teammates as good as Jordan was able to. Lebron was not even able to develop teammates as good as Steph Curry and they are peers.

This is why Jordan is better than Lebron and the level of competition is just a footnote......