2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread

[sp6r=underrated]

The classic example is Karl Malone who was an offputting person and he essentially has no fans on this board, and despite a very strong resume he's almost completely missing from discussions here.

I'm sure the big thing Malone being offputting is the indefensible rape of child. It makes him scum. But I've always felt he's a bit different than most other stars who were content to play in small markets. He actually had tons of charisma. I'm surprised by the fact he has so few backers because as you said his resume is very strong.

In the highest/lowest possible range for Duncan thread I mentioned that most people were offering far too narrow of a range.

A good way to determine the highest/lowest possible ranking for a player is to apply the American standard for summary judgment in a civil dispute:

1. "no genuine dispute as to any material fact and the moving party is entitled to judgment as a matter of law"
2. with the review "'taking all facts and inferences in the light most favorable to the nonmoving party."

When you say what is the lowest possible ranking for Duncan, ask yourself taking all facts in the most favorable manner to the other player could you argue that player above Duncan. If you could you should slot them above Duncan. And the opposite when you're saying what is the possible highest ranking for Duncan.

Once you do that you'll find the ranges for these questions is a lot larger than the ranges typically offered in these threads.

When you ask yourself those questions with regards to the highest possible reasonable ranking for Karl Malone he can go really high on the list. Like you said I think if he had a backer he'd be a lot higher ranked.

[Outside]

Towns season is >> LeBrons.

Considering LeBron is just blatant disregard to the actual season played.

Much like your take of it being insulting that Luka got more MVP votes than Tatum, I'd love to hear you expound on this.

If Curry is getting consideration, I don't see why Lebron can't be on the edges of the conversation. We've already set a standard that you don't have to be great a large percentage of the year in that case. I realize the team success is quite different but we need to also understand that Lakers roster was just an absolute disgrace this year getting essentially nothing out of two supermax players.

I don't see the argument for LeBron being in consideration. His box score stats are obviously very good, but he played only 56 games, his team didn't even make the play-in, and he has zero PS to add value. He was 14th in overall LEBRON and 17th in LEBRON wins added. His defense is bad. If it were another player putting up great box score stats on such a lousy team, they wouldn't be given consideration, so LeBron shouldn't get it just because he's LeBron.

Even if you dismiss the narrative aspect of how poorly the Lakers performed compared to the preseason expectations, I still don't see a case there to even be on the edges of the conversation. If he's going to get credit as one of the greatest floor raisers of all time, it doesn't seem consistent to dismiss LeBron from any responsibility for the Lakers 33-49 record this season and put all the blame on roster construction. This is the worst record of any LeBron team in his career, with the 35-47 Cavs in his rookie season being the only other season under .500. These Lakers were 16 games under .500. That stink doesn't rub off.

[eminence]

Towns season is >> LeBrons.

Considering LeBron is just blatant disregard to the actual season played.

Much like your take of it being insulting that Luka got more MVP votes than Tatum, I'd love to hear you expound on this.

If Curry is getting consideration, I don't see why Lebron can't be on the edges of the conversation. We've already set a standard that you don't have to be great a large percentage of the year in that case. I realize the team success is quite different but we need to also understand that Lakers roster was just an absolute disgrace this year getting essentially nothing out of two supermax players.

I feel like we've had this conversation too many times Chuck. You believe Curry wasn't particularly good this season. I think he was a close 2nd to Jokic when playing this season (injury missed time knocks him down).

The rough outline for each of the guys mentioned for the RS:

LeBron – 56 games, 25-31 (37.9%), 8-18 without (30.8%), 113.2/115.2 on court (-2), 108.4/112.6 off court (-4.2), +2.2 on/off, +0.31 RAPM, 37.2 mpg, 30.3 ppg, 8.2 reb, 6.2 ast, 3.5 tov, 61.9 TS%, 145.5 TSA, Westbrook/Monk/Melo/Bradley/THT his main partners

Curry – 64 games, 45-19 (70.3%), 8-10 without (44.4%), 115.8/105.7 on court (+10.1), 110.0/109.9 off court (+0.1), +10.0 on/off, +3.67 RAPM, 34.5 mpg, 25.5 ppg, 5.2 reb, 6.3 ast, 3.2 tov, 60.1 TS%, 96.0 TSA, Wiggins/Looney/Poole/OPJ/Dray his main partners

Luka – 65 games, 44-21 (67.7%), 8-9 without (47.1%), 115.5/111.9 on court (+3.6), 111.1/107.6 off court (+3.5), +0.1 on/off, +0.76 RAPM, 35.4 mpg, 28.4 ppg, 9.1 reb, 8.7 ast, 4.5 tov, 57.1 TS%, 15.3 TSA, DFS/Brunson/Powell/Bullock/Kleber his main partners

Tatum – 76 games, 49-27 (64.5%), 2-4 without (33.3%), 118.1/106.0 on court (+12.1), 109.0/110.8 off court (-1.8), +13.9 on/off, +4.29 RAPM, 35.9 mpg, 26.9 pts, 8.0 reb, 4.4 ast, 2.9 tov, 57.8 TS%, 42.0 TSA, Smart/Horford/Brown/Williams x2/Schroder his main partners

Towns – 74 games, 44-30 (59.5%), 2-6 without (25.0%), 117.9/113.1 on court (+4.8), 109.2/110.7 off court (-1.5), +6.3 on/off, +1.64 RAPM, 33.5 mpg, 24.6 pts, 9.8 reb, 3.6 ast, 3.1 tov, 64.0 TS%, 211.2 TSA, Edwards/Russell/Vanderbilt/Beverley/Beasley/McDaniels his main partners

I’d rate their casts as such:
1. Tatum (strong)
2. Towns (okay)
3. Doncic (okay)
4. Curry (poor)
5. LeBron (terrible)

LeBron isn't in contention cause he missed a 3rd of the season while guiding his team to the 11th seed, they weren't meaningfully better with him healthy/around to the point that when he did play I would say he wasn't playing at a top 10 player level.

[Texas Chuck]

Towns season is >> LeBrons.

Considering LeBron is just blatant disregard to the actual season played.

Much like your take of it being insulting that Luka got more MVP votes than Tatum, I'd love to hear you expound on this.

If Curry is getting consideration, I don't see why Lebron can't be on the edges of the conversation. We've already set a standard that you don't have to be great a large percentage of the year in that case. I realize the team success is quite different but we need to also understand that Lakers roster was just an absolute disgrace this year getting essentially nothing out of two supermax players.

I don't see the argument for LeBron being in consideration. His box score stats are obviously very good, but he played only 56 games, his team didn't even make the play-in, and he has zero PS to add value. He was 14th in overall LEBRON and 17th in LEBRON wins added. His defense is bad. If it were another player putting up great box score stats on such a lousy team, they wouldn't be given consideration, so LeBron shouldn't get it just because he's LeBron.

Even if you dismiss the narrative aspect of how poorly the Lakers performed compared to the preseason expectations, I still don't see a case there to even be on the edges of the conversation. If he's going to get credit as one of the greatest floor raisers of all time, it doesn't seem consistent to dismiss LeBron from any responsibility for the Lakers 33-49 record this season and put all the blame on roster construction. This is the worst record of any LeBron team in his career, with the 35-47 Cavs in his rookie season being the only other season under .500. These Lakers were 16 games under .500. That stink doesn't rub off.

I'm not considering Lebron personally. But I don't understand the connection to Towns here. Whereas there is a much more natural connection to Steph who like Lebron got off to a great start, then didn't play as well for a significant stretch, and then an injury.

I just think there is a place for people to consider Lebron if they are seriously considering Curry based on his play to date. Obviously Steph is still going and his team is a threat to go deep and if they do he is almost certainly going to be one of the primary reasons why and at that point he belongs. But we have several posters already listing him as one of their leading candidates and I'm really struggling with that. Especially posters who aren't currently considering guys who started slow, but are still playing and going strong (Tatum and Luka the primary guys here) unless they do more.

That's all. I'm not making a case for Lebron. Just I see where one could have one, if one is currently high on Steph. Unless the primary reason one is high on Steph is the team record of course.

And finally I don't care about pre-season projections in this. I just don't think its relevant to a player's case. Ja doesn't get more credit for me because nobody expected the Grizz to finish 2nd in the West. KD or Lebron only get dinged for their own shortcomings not because Brooklyn and LA got overhyped in the pre-season.

[falcolombardi]

Towns season is >> LeBrons.

Considering LeBron is just blatant disregard to the actual season played.

Much like your take of it being insulting that Luka got more MVP votes than Tatum, I'd love to hear you expound on this.

If Curry is getting consideration, I don't see why Lebron can't be on the edges of the conversation. We've already set a standard that you don't have to be great a large percentage of the year in that case. I realize the team success is quite different but we need to also understand that Lakers roster was just an absolute disgrace this year getting essentially nothing out of two supermax players.

I feel like we've had this conversation too many times Chuck. You believe Curry wasn't particularly good this season. I think he was a close 2nd to Jokic when playing this season (injury missed time knocks him down).

The rough outline for each of the guys mentioned for the RS:

LeBron – 56 games, 25-31 (37.9%), 8-18 without (30.8%), 113.2/115.2 on court (-2), 108.4/112.6 off court (-4.2), +2.2 on/off, +0.31 RAPM, 37.2 mpg, 30.3 ppg, 8.2 reb, 6.2 ast, 3.5 tov, 61.9 TS%, 145.5 TSA, Westbrook/Monk/Melo/Bradley/THT his main partners

Curry – 64 games, 45-19 (70.3%), 8-10 without (44.4%), 115.8/105.7 on court (+10.1), 110.0/109.9 off court (+0.1), +10.0 on/off, +3.67 RAPM, 34.5 mpg, 25.5 ppg, 5.2 reb, 6.3 ast, 3.2 tov, 60.1 TS%, 96.0 TSA, Wiggins/Looney/Poole/OPJ/Dray his main partners

Luka – 65 games, 44-21 (67.7%), 8-9 without (47.1%), 115.5/111.9 on court (+3.6), 111.1/107.6 off court (+3.5), +0.1 on/off, +0.76 RAPM, 35.4 mpg, 28.4 ppg, 9.1 reb, 8.7 ast, 4.5 tov, 57.1 TS%, 15.3 TSA, DFS/Brunson/Powell/Bullock/Kleber his main partners

Tatum – 76 games, 49-27 (64.5%), 2-4 without (33.3%), 118.1/106.0 on court (+12.1), 109.0/110.8 off court (-1.8), +13.9 on/off, +4.29 RAPM, 35.9 mpg, 26.9 pts, 8.0 reb, 4.4 ast, 2.9 tov, 57.8 TS%, 42.0 TSA, Smart/Horford/Brown/Williams x2/Schroder his main partners

Towns – 74 games, 44-30 (59.5%), 2-6 without (25.0%), 117.9/113.1 on court (+4.8), 109.2/110.7 off court (-1.5), +6.3 on/off, +1.64 RAPM, 33.5 mpg, 24.6 pts, 9.8 reb, 3.6 ast, 3.1 tov, 64.0 TS%, 211.2 TSA, Edwards/Russell/Vanderbilt/Beverley/Beasley/McDaniels his main partners

I’d rate their casts as such:
1. Tatum (strong)
2. Towns (okay)
3. Doncic (okay)
4. Curry (poor)
5. LeBron (terrible)

LeBron isn't in contention cause he missed a 3rd of the season while guiding his team to the 11th seed, they weren't meaningfully better with him healthy/around to the point that when he did play I would say he wasn't playing at a top 10 player level.

curry poor cast? when he has draymond and poole ?

[Texas Chuck]

Towns season is >> LeBrons.

Considering LeBron is just blatant disregard to the actual season played.

Much like your take of it being insulting that Luka got more MVP votes than Tatum, I'd love to hear you expound on this.

If Curry is getting consideration, I don't see why Lebron can't be on the edges of the conversation. We've already set a standard that you don't have to be great a large percentage of the year in that case. I realize the team success is quite different but we need to also understand that Lakers roster was just an absolute disgrace this year getting essentially nothing out of two supermax players.

I feel like we've had this conversation too many times Chuck. You believe Curry wasn't particularly good this season. I think he was a close 2nd to Jokic when playing this season (injury missed time knocks him down).

The rough outline for each of the guys mentioned for the RS:

LeBron – 56 games, 25-31 (37.9%), 8-18 without (30.8%), 113.2/115.2 on court (-2), 108.4/112.6 off court (-4.2), +2.2 on/off, +0.31 RAPM, 37.2 mpg, 30.3 ppg, 8.2 reb, 6.2 ast, 3.5 tov, 61.9 TS%, 145.5 TSA, Westbrook/Monk/Melo/Bradley/THT his main partners

Curry – 64 games, 45-19 (70.3%), 8-10 without (44.4%), 115.8/105.7 on court (+10.1), 110.0/109.9 off court (+0.1), +10.0 on/off, +3.67 RAPM, 34.5 mpg, 25.5 ppg, 5.2 reb, 6.3 ast, 3.2 tov, 60.1 TS%, 96.0 TSA, Wiggins/Looney/Poole/OPJ/Dray his main partners

Luka – 65 games, 44-21 (67.7%), 8-9 without (47.1%), 115.5/111.9 on court (+3.6), 111.1/107.6 off court (+3.5), +0.1 on/off, +0.76 RAPM, 35.4 mpg, 28.4 ppg, 9.1 reb, 8.7 ast, 4.5 tov, 57.1 TS%, 15.3 TSA, DFS/Brunson/Powell/Bullock/Kleber his main partners

Tatum – 76 games, 49-27 (64.5%), 2-4 without (33.3%), 118.1/106.0 on court (+12.1), 109.0/110.8 off court (-1.8), +13.9 on/off, +4.29 RAPM, 35.9 mpg, 26.9 pts, 8.0 reb, 4.4 ast, 2.9 tov, 57.8 TS%, 42.0 TSA, Smart/Horford/Brown/Williams x2/Schroder his main partners

Towns – 74 games, 44-30 (59.5%), 2-6 without (25.0%), 117.9/113.1 on court (+4.8), 109.2/110.7 off court (-1.5), +6.3 on/off, +1.64 RAPM, 33.5 mpg, 24.6 pts, 9.8 reb, 3.6 ast, 3.1 tov, 64.0 TS%, 211.2 TSA, Edwards/Russell/Vanderbilt/Beverley/Beasley/McDaniels his main partners

I’d rate their casts as such:
1. Tatum (strong)
2. Towns (okay)
3. Doncic (okay)
4. Curry (poor)
5. LeBron (terrible)

LeBron isn't in contention cause he missed a 3rd of the season while guiding his team to the 11th seed, they weren't meaningfully better with him healthy/around to the point that when he did play I would say he wasn't playing at a top 10 player level.

Greatly appreciate the response. It appears +/- is a real driving force for you. I've had that argument enough on this board over the years to just accept your position.

[eminence]

Much like your take of it being insulting that Luka got more MVP votes than Tatum, I'd love to hear you expound on this.

If Curry is getting consideration, I don't see why Lebron can't be on the edges of the conversation. We've already set a standard that you don't have to be great a large percentage of the year in that case. I realize the team success is quite different but we need to also understand that Lakers roster was just an absolute disgrace this year getting essentially nothing out of two supermax players.

I don't see the argument for LeBron being in consideration. His box score stats are obviously very good, but he played only 56 games, his team didn't even make the play-in, and he has zero PS to add value. He was 14th in overall LEBRON and 17th in LEBRON wins added. His defense is bad. If it were another player putting up great box score stats on such a lousy team, they wouldn't be given consideration, so LeBron shouldn't get it just because he's LeBron.

Even if you dismiss the narrative aspect of how poorly the Lakers performed compared to the preseason expectations, I still don't see a case there to even be on the edges of the conversation. If he's going to get credit as one of the greatest floor raisers of all time, it doesn't seem consistent to dismiss LeBron from any responsibility for the Lakers 33-49 record this season and put all the blame on roster construction. This is the worst record of any LeBron team in his career, with the 35-47 Cavs in his rookie season being the only other season under .500. These Lakers were 16 games under .500. That stink doesn't rub off.

I'm not considering Lebron personally. But I don't understand the connection to Towns here. Whereas there is a much more natural connection to Steph who like Lebron got off to a great start, then didn't play as well for a significant stretch, and then an injury.

I just think there is a place for people to consider Lebron if they are seriously considering Curry based on his play to date. Obviously Steph is still going and his team is a threat to go deep and if they do he is almost certainly going to be one of the primary reasons why and at that point he belongs. But we have several posters already listing him as one of their leading candidates and I'm really struggling with that. Especially posters who aren't currently considering guys who started slow, but are still playing and going strong (Tatum and Luka the primary guys here) unless they do more.

That's all. I'm not making a case for Lebron. Just I see where one could have one, if one is currently high on Steph. Unless the primary reason one is high on Steph is the team record of course.

And finally I don't care about pre-season projections in this. I just don't think its relevant to a player's case. Ja doesn't get more credit for me because nobody expected the Grizz to finish 2nd in the West. KD or Lebron only get dinged for their own shortcomings not because Brooklyn and LA got overhyped in the pre-season.

I mentioned Towns as a guy who was getting no consideration and deserves no consideration but was still better than LeBron on the season.

I don't the parallels to Curry at all.

For me Curry started as the #1 player in the league for the first 40% of the season or so and fell to ~#5 for the rest of the RS during his 'cold' stretch (since returning I think he's been the playoffs #4 performer behind Jokic/Giannis/Butler).

[eminence]

Much like your take of it being insulting that Luka got more MVP votes than Tatum, I'd love to hear you expound on this.

If Curry is getting consideration, I don't see why Lebron can't be on the edges of the conversation. We've already set a standard that you don't have to be great a large percentage of the year in that case. I realize the team success is quite different but we need to also understand that Lakers roster was just an absolute disgrace this year getting essentially nothing out of two supermax players.

I feel like we've had this conversation too many times Chuck. You believe Curry wasn't particularly good this season. I think he was a close 2nd to Jokic when playing this season (injury missed time knocks him down).

The rough outline for each of the guys mentioned for the RS:

LeBron – 56 games, 25-31 (37.9%), 8-18 without (30.8%), 113.2/115.2 on court (-2), 108.4/112.6 off court (-4.2), +2.2 on/off, +0.31 RAPM, 37.2 mpg, 30.3 ppg, 8.2 reb, 6.2 ast, 3.5 tov, 61.9 TS%, 145.5 TSA, Westbrook/Monk/Melo/Bradley/THT his main partners

Curry – 64 games, 45-19 (70.3%), 8-10 without (44.4%), 115.8/105.7 on court (+10.1), 110.0/109.9 off court (+0.1), +10.0 on/off, +3.67 RAPM, 34.5 mpg, 25.5 ppg, 5.2 reb, 6.3 ast, 3.2 tov, 60.1 TS%, 96.0 TSA, Wiggins/Looney/Poole/OPJ/Dray his main partners

Luka – 65 games, 44-21 (67.7%), 8-9 without (47.1%), 115.5/111.9 on court (+3.6), 111.1/107.6 off court (+3.5), +0.1 on/off, +0.76 RAPM, 35.4 mpg, 28.4 ppg, 9.1 reb, 8.7 ast, 4.5 tov, 57.1 TS%, 15.3 TSA, DFS/Brunson/Powell/Bullock/Kleber his main partners

Tatum – 76 games, 49-27 (64.5%), 2-4 without (33.3%), 118.1/106.0 on court (+12.1), 109.0/110.8 off court (-1.8), +13.9 on/off, +4.29 RAPM, 35.9 mpg, 26.9 pts, 8.0 reb, 4.4 ast, 2.9 tov, 57.8 TS%, 42.0 TSA, Smart/Horford/Brown/Williams x2/Schroder his main partners

Towns – 74 games, 44-30 (59.5%), 2-6 without (25.0%), 117.9/113.1 on court (+4.8), 109.2/110.7 off court (-1.5), +6.3 on/off, +1.64 RAPM, 33.5 mpg, 24.6 pts, 9.8 reb, 3.6 ast, 3.1 tov, 64.0 TS%, 211.2 TSA, Edwards/Russell/Vanderbilt/Beverley/Beasley/McDaniels his main partners

I’d rate their casts as such:
1. Tatum (strong)
2. Towns (okay)
3. Doncic (okay)
4. Curry (poor)
5. LeBron (terrible)

LeBron isn't in contention cause he missed a 3rd of the season while guiding his team to the 11th seed, they weren't meaningfully better with him healthy/around to the point that when he did play I would say he wasn't playing at a top 10 player level.

curry poor cast? when he has draymond and poole ?

Poole/Wiggins/Russell/Vanderbilt (serviceable starters, good bench players) < DFS/Brunson/Horford/Smart/Williams (strong starters) < Brown/ANT (lower level stars, ANT still rising)

Draymond played fewer minutes than Anthony Davis. If Dray had been healthy all season, then Curry'd have an okay cast comparable to Towns/Doncic.

[falcolombardi]

I feel like we've had this conversation too many times Chuck. You believe Curry wasn't particularly good this season. I think he was a close 2nd to Jokic when playing this season (injury missed time knocks him down).

The rough outline for each of the guys mentioned for the RS:

LeBron – 56 games, 25-31 (37.9%), 8-18 without (30.8%), 113.2/115.2 on court (-2), 108.4/112.6 off court (-4.2), +2.2 on/off, +0.31 RAPM, 37.2 mpg, 30.3 ppg, 8.2 reb, 6.2 ast, 3.5 tov, 61.9 TS%, 145.5 TSA, Westbrook/Monk/Melo/Bradley/THT his main partners

Curry – 64 games, 45-19 (70.3%), 8-10 without (44.4%), 115.8/105.7 on court (+10.1), 110.0/109.9 off court (+0.1), +10.0 on/off, +3.67 RAPM, 34.5 mpg, 25.5 ppg, 5.2 reb, 6.3 ast, 3.2 tov, 60.1 TS%, 96.0 TSA, Wiggins/Looney/Poole/OPJ/Dray his main partners

Luka – 65 games, 44-21 (67.7%), 8-9 without (47.1%), 115.5/111.9 on court (+3.6), 111.1/107.6 off court (+3.5), +0.1 on/off, +0.76 RAPM, 35.4 mpg, 28.4 ppg, 9.1 reb, 8.7 ast, 4.5 tov, 57.1 TS%, 15.3 TSA, DFS/Brunson/Powell/Bullock/Kleber his main partners

Tatum – 76 games, 49-27 (64.5%), 2-4 without (33.3%), 118.1/106.0 on court (+12.1), 109.0/110.8 off court (-1.8), +13.9 on/off, +4.29 RAPM, 35.9 mpg, 26.9 pts, 8.0 reb, 4.4 ast, 2.9 tov, 57.8 TS%, 42.0 TSA, Smart/Horford/Brown/Williams x2/Schroder his main partners

Towns – 74 games, 44-30 (59.5%), 2-6 without (25.0%), 117.9/113.1 on court (+4.8), 109.2/110.7 off court (-1.5), +6.3 on/off, +1.64 RAPM, 33.5 mpg, 24.6 pts, 9.8 reb, 3.6 ast, 3.1 tov, 64.0 TS%, 211.2 TSA, Edwards/Russell/Vanderbilt/Beverley/Beasley/McDaniels his main partners

I’d rate their casts as such:
1. Tatum (strong)
2. Towns (okay)
3. Doncic (okay)
4. Curry (poor)
5. LeBron (terrible)

LeBron isn't in contention cause he missed a 3rd of the season while guiding his team to the 11th seed, they weren't meaningfully better with him healthy/around to the point that when he did play I would say he wasn't playing at a top 10 player level.

curry poor cast? when he has draymond and poole ?

Poole/Wiggins/Russell/Vanderbilt (serviceable starters, good bench players) < DFS/Brunson/Horford/Smart/Williams (strong starters) < Brown/ANT (lower level stars, ANT still rising)

Draymond played fewer minutes than Anthony Davis. If Dray had been healthy all season, then Curry'd have an okay cast comparable to Towns/Doncic.

poole as serviceable starter seems really low for a player who has looked like warriors best offensive player at times and had all star numbers for stretches of the season

including draymond injuries in the evaluation is fine for the regular season, but not once come the playoffs

[eminence]

curry poor cast? when he has draymond and poole ?

Poole/Wiggins/Russell/Vanderbilt (serviceable starters, good bench players) < DFS/Brunson/Horford/Smart/Williams (strong starters) < Brown/ANT (lower level stars, ANT still rising)

Draymond played fewer minutes than Anthony Davis. If Dray had been healthy all season, then Curry'd have an okay cast comparable to Towns/Doncic.

poole as serviceable starter seems really low for a player who has looked like warriors best offensive player at times and had all star numbers for stretches of the season

including draymond injuries in the evaluation is fine for the regular season, but not once come the playoffs

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/poolejo01/gamelog/2022

Maybe (I'd vote no) AS level for March on, numbers 'look' better when without Steph and they did a lot of losing (1-8 in March if counting the Boston game, 1-7 if not). With some outright tanking teams in early April making it look a little better than it was (and actually beating the Jazz straight up).

I was speaking strictly for RS as that's all LeBron played.

[tsherkin]

poole as serviceable starter seems really low for a player who has looked like warriors best offensive player at times and had all star numbers for stretches of the season

Guy who hasnt managed 37% from 3 yet in a season is shooting 43% from 3 in the playoffs on 5.8 attempta per game. He has something to prove before anyone will trust that his value over 10 games is going to stand. He is shooting 29.4% over the last 4 games, with three being weak to bad and one being hot. Something to watch; he probably isnt a Steph-level shooter from 3, so his value needs to be examined accordingly. He is good spark, bit some perspective is key.

[Doctor MJ]

I think Bane deserves serious MIP consideration. I'm inclined to say more consideration than Ja.

[eminence]

I think I've settled on Garland as my MIP if I wind up voting on it, but am open to listening for 2nd/3rd.

[Texas Chuck]

I think Bane deserves serious MIP consideration. I'm inclined to say more consideration than Ja.

Ja made it clear he felt exactly the same.


I realize most people feel differently than me, but for me the hardest jump is from star to superstar. This is truly the biggest leap. It's why I had Luka as my MIP 2 year ago. So I don't have an issue with Ja winning the award even as I understand most people just like to see a low minute guy go to a bigger role and a lot more statistical production. The CJ McCollum if you will.

But I think Darius Garland is probably the guy for me here. Isn't quite the player Ja is but came from much further back to get there.

[Outside]

Memphis is full of MIP candidates. No one has mention Jaren Jackson, Jr., but to me, he deserves a mention also.

[falcolombardi]

Memphis is full of MIP candidates. No one has mention Jaren Jackson, Jr., but to me, he deserves a mention also.

memphis has 3 different guys with superstar potential in Jaren, Ja and Bane (doesnt mean all or even 1 of them will reach it tho) they are like 2010 oklahoma-lite

hopefully they make better decisions than my team did lol

[Dutchball97]

JJJ's boxscore stats are barely any different than his rookie year. That of course doesn't tell the whole story but with other candidates like Garland, Morant, Bane and Dejounte Murray there are massive jumps there.

[Texas Chuck]

So I try not to get to homerish in this thread. And I want to be clear I don't think Dorian deserves a 1st team all-D and probably not even a 2nd team nod this year. But the more I look at how Dallas has been a really solid defense this year and you look at their bigs and their two point guards and it seems clear this success is built on Sean Sweeney's scheme but also those two wing defenders Finney-Smith and Bullock.

And DFS has some statistical numbers this year that suggest a real effectiveness. And no player in the entire league spends more time defending the other team's best offensive player.

But while I don't think either guy is a candidate this year, what they are doing on the big stage this playoffs is going to set them up for consideration next year. Having two 3&D guys who can defend multiple positions and do it for 40 minutes plus has been a big part of Dallas heading into a game 7 against the best team in the league this year. Both guys deserve a passing mention and Doe Doe probably a bit more than thant.

[Doctor MJ]

I think Bane deserves serious MIP consideration. I'm inclined to say more consideration than Ja.

Ja made it clear he felt exactly the same.


I realize most people feel differently than me, but for me the hardest jump is from star to superstar. This is truly the biggest leap. It's why I had Luka as my MIP 2 year ago. So I don't have an issue with Ja winning the award even as I understand most people just like to see a low minute guy go to a bigger role and a lot more statistical production. The CJ McCollum if you will.

But I think Darius Garland is probably the guy for me here. Isn't quite the player Ja is but came from much further back to get there.

I don't disagree with that philosophy so much as I struggle with what seems most important.

I'm totally with you that I don't see the point of considering MIP's below a certain level, but have a slant a bit more toward the "this person now needs your attention" perspective. That doesn't DQ a superstar by any means, but once a guy gets to the point where he's getting serious accolades, I think the MIP award becomes something of an afterthought for what it can do for that player.

I did vote Luka for MIP 2 years ago, and I've always been adamant that it was ridiculous to award the MIP to Aaron Brooks over Kevin Durant back in the day, but if I'm going to give the MIP to a guy who is a superstar, where I saw him the prior season really matters.

In the case of Ja, the guy seemed like he was already playing like an all-star last year before the injury. And while he clearly made great strides this year, in the end, I don't know I can say he's even been the Grizzlies season MVP. I'd argue Bane has a great case, and that's coming from him being a back up the previous year. I agree with everyone else that Ja is the outlier talent and the one you want to build your team around though, just to be crystal clear - not meaning to make a radical anti-Ja statement.

Glad you're high on Garland for this. He was my choice after the regular season, and he'll likely be my choice when all is said and done.

[Texas Chuck]

[, but have a slant a bit more toward the "this person now needs your attention" perspective. That doesn't DQ a superstar by any means, but once a guy gets to the point where he's getting serious accolades, I think the MIP award becomes something of an afterthought for what it can do for that player.

Yeah this isn't a factor for me. I never view any awards in terms of how it impacts a player's legacy down the road. I just try and evaluate the season for what it was.

But I do understand your thinking and agree that I think the intention of the award is to do what you are talking about--shine a spotlight on players who aren't already viewed as stars.