A RealGM Scandal, and a Conversation about Projects

[ScrantonBulls]

Just my honest take here. People are saying how emotions are high and it is a sensitive subject, etc. I think that's a bit exaggerated. I guess I get it if you are worried that the integrity of RealGM is in jeopardy. I don't think that is the case at all though. I understand that some posters have been here a long time, building up the integrity and reputation of RealGM as having some great basketball minds and analysis. Two shmucks won't define what RealGM is.

These were two weirdos that didn't seem overly close with anybody. They pulled some strange **** and got banned. The mods don't owe anybody anything. They broke the rules so they are gone. Life will go on RealGM. There are plenty of great posters on here. This will be a blip on the radar. RealGM was the starting place of great basketball minds like Ben Taylor. It's still one of the best places on the internet for high quality basketball discussion. These guys won't change that.

[dooki667]

Damn this is a shame. I don't post much at all but I absolutely love reading through these projects. I can spend days just reading through one ranking breaking to learn about advanced stats and era strategies ect.. I learned so much here about legends like Russel Wilt Mikan Kareem McHale y'all have such amazing knowledge and insights on the players and game I love. This is one of my favorite hobbies so thank you guys for yours immense efforts it's really appreciated. I really hope y'all push through and don't let some rotten apples ruin a really great thing.

[capfan33]

People have been talking about the alts since before the peaks project even started, kinda disingenuous to act like this popped up because of the result of the first vote tbh.

I can't recall anything like this when LeBron got ranked #1 in the 2020 top 100.

I'd like to see evidence posted but i cant really take the "ugh this is just because jordan lost!" takes seriously and I don't think they're really operating with honesty in mind here. Multiple people who didn't even have Jordan #1 (raises hand) felt that the activity was suspicious. Don't know about specifics and hopefully that's cleared up

we don't know since it has not been shared, but how many of the people who submitted "evidence" are fans of a certain player and are upset? One has already posted in this thread and there's another one who is liking post who was voicing disapproval about the project earlier when voting wasn't going a certain way since he supports that same player.

I mean, what do you exactly doubt?

The Discord server exists, I used to be there because OhayoKD invited me a long time ago. I didn't engage much and I left a few months ago, because for once, I don't have the time for Discord activity and secondly, it's a place where people are taught to become storytellers, which doesn't interest me at al.

The "conspiracy" is also true, at least to the degree that people created accounts to participate in the project and that the Discord is heavily against Jordan. I don't know which ones are legit human beings and which not, I suspect at least most of them are real. They might just agree with OhayoKD that Jordan doesn't deserve top place and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Another true thing is that OhayoKD had a "mission" to destroy "Jordan fraud" and create new narrative in basketball world. That's her words, paraphrased of course. I mean, that's her choice - I always found that delusional, but I don't think this alone is worth banning.

I don't know everything, because I just didn't care enough. I don't know if the alts thing is real, it very well may be. I don't know if the recruitment thing was only to find people who are willing to push Jordan from the top (which by itself isn't worth banning, although I am not sure if it's ethically correct to manipulate results that way) or if it has more manipulation process involved. I know that many people in that Discord channel are much younger than me (and I am not that old at 27), age by itself isn't an argument but younger people are easier to manipulate. Don't know if that happened though, so please do not quote me on that.

I actually like how the project went after 3rd thread. With Jordan and James in, it became a really good place to discuss someone else. I haven't voted, but I participated and it gave me a very pleasant time in the tough moment of my life. I don't know what to do with the project, I don't have any advices for Doc. He's the mod here and I trust him. I just hope that we will continue (or restart?) the project at some point.


I also want to add something in the end. I don't know what evidences mods have and I don't have a clear picture because I left the Discord (which I rarely read) before the project started, but I don't think AEnigma participated in this fraud. I know he's on the Discord and at least he used to be very active there, but I have never seen him inviting new people and asking them for joining RealGM. I have many disagreements with AEnigma throughout our history here, but he's a valuable poster and I don't think he did anything wrong to influence the outcome of the project. I could be mistaken though, so it's just my opinion.

I originally wasn't going to say anything, I barely post here anymore and don't really have plans to going forward, but I do have a few things I'd like to say.

I'm in the Discord, and have been for a while, and while I was invited by Ohayo, I've stayed because I've developed good friendships with many people on there. Not nearly as much because of Ohayo, in fact perhaps in spite of Ohayo lol.

Firstly, what Ohayo did specifically is clearly wrong and probably worthy of a ban of some sort. Most of the accounts being accused of being alts are, in fact, real people, as far as I can tell, but Ohayo did attempt to influence them in a way that was clearly questionable although maybe not really against any rules. And for sure manipulative, not in good faith in terms of motivation, etc. The quid pro quo CEO discussed is definitely ban worthy, as is the alt account that Ohayo does have, which has participated in projects and I think people have already outed. (To be clear, Ohayo hasn't admitted to it explicitly, but I'm 99% sure lol)

AEnigma is definitely guilty of allowing this to occur more or less without objection, but to make a few things clear, he didn't attempt to directly influence the outcomes of votes. He didn't invite anyone, write ballots, create alts, etc. Guilty by association is fair, but he wasn't participating in it directly. Moreover, while in principle at a high level the Discord generally agrees, there is plenty of disagreement on a more granular level, especially with Ohayo. As has been already discussed, while I like and value Ohayo and think they bring a unique perspective on many things, they can be insanely annoying, and most people would agree with that on the Discord. We aren't some hive-mind that just co-signs whatever Ohayo wants, we disagree daily.

On some specifics that I've seen brought up that I want to make very clear, Ohayo genuinely thinks Russell>MJ in era relative terms, which honestly seems somewhat self-evident to me, hell, I think a majority of the posters on this board might agree. Ohayo does hate MJ more than anything else, that is true. AEnigma did genuinely vote MJ third for peaks, and was in good faith defending MJ at that position. I know he respects Kareem, but he definitely wasn't just voting MJ>Kareem for optics sakes, much to my chagrin.

AEnigma has had his issues, and I think himself would admit he can be excessively abrasive at times, but he's an excellent poster with very logical, well-thought out opinions, and I think any discussion with him in it is elevated.

Also, the idea of doing these projects without Lebron/MJ sounds gimmicky but honestly at this point, that debate is so played out it might actually be a good idea. May have more to add later, but I will also say, there's a good point to be made that activity in the PC board has gone down over the past few years, and there are fewer new posters, and that may or may not be an indictment on the way that Realgm is run generally. Hope you guys figure it out.

[B-Mitch 30]

I can't say I'm fully comfortable doing this, but Ohayo asked me to post a message they wrote about this whole thing here. Obviously I was a member of their Discord server, though if you look at my posting history, I didn't fellow their lead on the project votes at all. I was actually invited to their server after I joined the forum, if you can believe it. In any case, this is what they said:

I have been handed a ban I expect to turn permanent thus marking the end of OhayoKD’s time on the forum. So be it. Ceoofkobefans, elpollo, and rubberdubber have offered a much more accurate picture of what the “corrupt to the core” scripting looked like and much to I suppose the Chagrin of cavsfansince, oneanddone, lessthanjake, draymodgold, and thegoatrises007, these were real people voting as they wished. Don’t think much more needs to be said there.

I also think, despite all the obnoxiousness, I had a pretty positive impact on this board. Growing the participant base for projects(“rigging”) and threads in general, helping create new tracking systems, and leveraging realgm not simply as a place to discuss basketball, but as a place where people young and old with varying degrees of knowledge and familiarity with the sport honed their abilities as evidence-interpreters, debaters, storytellers, and ball-knowers.

But most importantly, I had fun.

Whether it was the “missions”, or she-ra roleplays, working to create systems that deliver novel information, figuring out how to construct the most airtight and compelling arguments, or just playing the world’s biggest hypeman when Kola made JJK as Basketball a thing, while there were plenty of other emotions attached to the ride, fun is the adjective I think best describes my time here.

Whether the board appreciated my time here, I know I did. For better or for worse. And whatever you think of my time here, there are new posters who, if given the opportunity, should end up offering alot more than me.

So, I too will look forward now. Here is my parting advice for this community, it’s members, and the powers that be

1. Stop antagonising new posters, or the communities they come from.

The moderators here have explicitly stated they do not want criticism of them on the website anywhere but via DMs (accountability is not convenient for those who make a point of abusing power). But since I anticipate a ban, and moderators do not have any say in what I do off their website (though it seems they wish they did), I am going to be honest.

Realgm is sort of falling apart. For reasons Penbeast cannot explain, new registers do not get activation emails, Which means…this ‘unethical’ recruitment our helpful mods and oh so respectable veterans have framed as deeply harmful to the uh "integrity' of this website…is basically this board’s only source of growth. Pair that with new posters getting insta perma-banned when they create threads, and this joyful environment of exclusion and suspicion individuals noted above have tried to build (at times directly leading to inexplicable permabans for “trolling”), and you guys have managed to make a context potential new realgmers largely do not wish to partake in. Projects incentivise participation both in the projects and outside them. Moreover, the communities you’re antagonising needlessly, which collectively house a massive portion of the board’s regulars offer an incentive to post and discuss things here in the first place. Which is all to say, the “recruitment” is a pretty big positive for the board and it’s pretty weird to frame it as “highjacking’ when you allegedly don’t care about the results (there certainly isn’t much to criticize regarding actual conduct in this website)

Frankly, I am baffled by posters who have not contributed here in months, suddenly showing up to partake in these projects, and then advocating for sealing out other more active posters because of their join-date or post history (DraymondGold).

If anyone bothered to check the post history of these controversial newbies, they’d realize with the exception of Paul, they mostly post outside of active projects. But that didn’t stop various “respected posters” in this thread from claiming “they don’t post outside of projects”. Similarly when a couple voters spelled Michael Jordan as Micheal Jordan, Kemba Walker claimed it was everyone in the discord.

This is lying. And it needs to start carrying consequences. You’re calling us a “cult” yet by and large these new posters are not the ones picking fights, asking that other posters are prevented from voting, or spying on other communities so they can stream context-less screenshots leading to nonsense like “the singular most active Bill Russell proponent over the last 3 years…is championing Bill Russell for “credibility”



(and for when it inevitably goes bad)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/807803459331555363/1400334250615767141/image.png?ex=688c4266&is=688af0e6&hm=13f5f17d8e8390546852cc46a4095a0bdf68def0a243bde80b62142d849f7b77&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1173&height=370

I’m talking to you Doctor MJ. Your negligence and now even complicity dealing with these losers is the primary source of the “toxicity” you’ve spent years penning soliloquies about.

Many take issue with my approach, but frankly, I’m quite proud being the one person here consistently willing to bully back the bullies and in my anticipated absence, someone else needs to be willing to take up that role. This uh “protection” being offered to constantly hostile entities that have spent the last 2 years continually calling for the people they dislike to be removed is cute, but they are not the ones who need “protection”. Case in point: this thread.

It’s not that dozens of eyewitnesses of elpollo_14 being being active and interacting with plenty of people over several makes it’s “impossible” they’re just me or always mindlessly saying what I tell them to. It’s that something like say draygold being lessthanjake is far more plausible. I never bothered pursuing that angle, not because it couldn’t possibly be true, but because using that possibility as a means to tar discourse and try to undo unfavorable results is straight up loser behavior. It’s a shame many here seem to feel otherwise.



2. Continuing the “corrupt to the core” projects

Exclude me and swap the project-runner if you wish, but retroactively annulling votes because you don’t like where voters came from, how they were joined, or to whatever extent I aided with reasoning is what rigging would look like. The “corruption” here doesn’t really justify killing the biggest events/draw this board has had for the last 2 years or actually tainting the project by redoing it so that the “right people” vote in “the right” way.

And on that note, while I do hope this board’s moderation gets its act together, I think it’s time to get pragmatic:

While Doctor MJ and co contemplate introducing 5000-post filters, surely motivated out of genuine concern, The 2025 peaks project will continue on discord, right where it left off. For the purpose of this project, the "unofficial" community of all things realgm will now operate as an official one inviting and actually nuturing contributors/voters of various dispositions from various communities in a way much of the pc board no longer seems willing to.

The rules will of course be the same. Three players, a year for each, and at least one line of reasoning. Everyone will be welcome to participate and cavsfansince is welcome to speculate all these recruits are secretly me.

We will resume the vote for the #6 thread and there will be 2 days for people to cast a ballot. Then we will proceed with the #7 and so on until activity fades.

The mods in this community aren’t going to scrutinize what motivates the votes and speculate based on cherrypicked screenshots or server comment volume that Aenigma defending Jordan’s replication vs Ohayo in private was an act because ultimately that’s not anyone’s business. If you provide reasoning, years, and names, your vote is valid. Even if Risky “definitely not lessthanjake” chalice points out kolapop “has no post history” because a mod deleted all their posts without informing anyone why, over here being new is not justification to be treated and moderated differently and rants about post-count and post history (including blatant falsehoods) will get you ridiculed.

Though the PC Board is very much reliant on the communities many of its veteran members are keen on gatekeeping/excluding, this reliance is not mutual, and accordingly I’m done putting up with these tired excuses for when Moderators go out of their way to prevent challenge or accountability. As part of a community where mods are selected by the members of the server, can be deposed by the members of the server, and bans or kicks require server-wide approval, no-kg-ai and doctor mj’s conduct here makes them look very uh…small to me.

Finally, regarding “previously banned’. Do not care. Like has been said, moderators here have made a point of avoiding any avenue of accountability from their conduct or decisions and so a decision from a moderator on another poster carries no weight to me beyond their ability to enforce it.

We’ll probably still try to send you new posters from time to time for lessthanjake to speculate on the realness of but “the votes are meaningless”, “lets be suspicious of all new posters”, and “the people bullying (and going so far as to spying on them) are heroes” is just not conducive to a thriving forum. Nor is pandering to a pathetic horde of veterans more invested in what other people are doing offsite, than actually contributing something of their own.

That’s all I guess. Try not to die (as an internet space). My head says you’re headed toward self-immolation, but I’m holding out hope you’ll figure this out.

[-Luke-]

Funny that several posters wrote they got a message by OhayoKD before the start of the project. I got one as well. Thought pretty much every user got one or that I'm part of some RealGM freemason group all of a sudden. Now it makes sense. I think I posted that I had LeBron #1 in my all-time rankings a few times on the General Board. It takes some dedication to keep a list of posters who would vote for LeBron, but it's also creepy.

It's very unfortunate. Although I've never participated in any project here, I enjoyed them as a silent lurker and learned a lot from posters here. This is literally the only internet forum I'm aware of where such discussion is still possible. There was a time maybe between 2000 and 2010, before social media became really popular, when I knew several forum about several topics with high level conversations. They all died out because people left or turned into garbage because they became more like social media. This board here is an exception and it would be very unfortunate if it died as well. I hope that you, Doctor MJ, keep going. A lot of people here enjoy your participation.

Although I don't participate, I think the best idea is to wait for a few months, maybe even until next year, wait until everything settles down a bit and then start at stratch with the project. To have some criteria like at least 500 or 1000 posts could be helpful, although with the level of "edication" Ohayo showed, I'm not even sure that's enough.

Kudos to the very knowledgeable users in these projects and to the mods, I hope you keep going.

[sp6r=underrated]

FWIW: I wouldn't focus so much on post count for deciding who gets to participate in projects but instead activity and civility. I'd emphasize the latter. The projects I've enjoyed on here have usually had mainly civil posters even if I disagree with them, as example I place less emphasis on the post-season than most people and still value the box score. Nonetheless the civil posters are the ones I enjoy the most even if they argue the regular season is a glorified pre-season and lean heavily on +/- while excluding the box score.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I'm looking to give people at least through tomorrow evening before consolidating the suggestions that people have for what to do going forward, but don't forget that those suggestions are the actual purpose of this thread.

A few ideas for how projects might be improved

1. Some have suggested a minimum post count requirement. The pushback has been that if it's too low, it's too easy to pad, and if it's too high, it locks people out. Maybe use a minimum and-1 count instead, or in addition, since theoretically those would be more difficult to pad.

2. Maybe instead of starting a project at #1, start at the end point and count down, ending with #1/#2. This could have the effect of increasing participation as a project goes on, with a climactic event at the end. It could also enable the project runner and/or mods to say, if you haven't been participating regularly, you don't get to vote for #1/#2.

3. I'm probably in the minority on this, but I feel like more specificity in the types of evaluation criteria used could lend sharper meaning to the results. As in, at the outset of the project, say, "this is an era-relative project" or "this is a project where you must project how a player would perform in the current league". Or another example - "this is a career value project with longevity heavily weighted" or "this is a prime-focused project". But I know there is a feeling that limiting the way players are evaluated in a project will have the effect of decreasing participation and thus weakening the conversation, and that's probably a valid fear.

This is just me thinking out loud. I could be off-base.

[One_and_Done]

I'm looking to give people at least through tomorrow evening before consolidating the suggestions that people have for what to do going forward, but don't forget that those suggestions are the actual purpose of this thread.

A few ideas for how projects might be improved

1. Some have suggested a minimum post count requirement. The pushback has been that if it's too low, it's too easy to pad, and if it's too high, it locks people out. Maybe use a minimum and-1 count instead, or in addition, since theoretically those would be more difficult to pad.

2. Maybe instead of starting a project at #1, start at the end point and count down, ending with #1/#2. This could have the effect of increasing participation as a project goes on, with a climactic event at the end. It could also enable the project runner and/or mods to say, if you haven't been participating regularly, you don't get to vote for #1/#2.

3. I'm probably in the minority on this, but I feel like more specificity in the types of evaluation criteria used could lend sharper meaning to the results. As in, at the outset of the project, say, "this is an era-relative project" or "this is a project where you must project how a player would perform in the current league". Or another example - "this is a career value project with longevity heavily weighted" or "this is a prime-focused project". But I know there is a feeling that limiting the way players are evaluated in a project will have the effect of decreasing participation and thus weakening the conversation, and that's probably a valid fear.

This is just me thinking out loud. I could be off-base.

I think I disagree with every one of those suggestions. Also you really think it'll be hard to farm likes if you are using sock puppets?

[FrodoBaggins]

10-year+ account for automatic entry. Case-by-case exemptions for newer join dates determined by a panel of mods/OGs/respected posters.

[One_and_Done]

10-year+ account for automatic entry. Case-by-case exemptions for newer join dates determined by a panel of mods/OGs/respected posters.

I think every single poster who has expressed an opinion has disagreed with this. It's obviously a ridiculous barrier to entry. This is the PC Board, not the board for a handful of OGs to pat each other on the back.

[babyjax13]

For people defending Ohayo, I think it is pretty important to see how many people in this thread she specifically dm'd because she sorted through their posting history to see if they ranked LeBron over MJ. I do not really have sympathy for her defense, and would not for someone who did the same thing for Jordan. That is a lot different than just recruiting friends and acquaintances from a discord server to participate. That is obsessive and invasive behavior and it does affect the integrity of these organic polls when people are specifically recruited because they agree with you. That also is not an indictment on those people who participated because of that contact.

[letskissbro]

I’ve used and continue to use the discord server sporadically over the past few years. Mostly to rant, chat ****, and stockpile interesting stats I find. OhayoKD has always been pretty aggressive about pushing an anti-MJ stance, both here and in the discord. It started off as debate strategizing but somewhere along the way it turned into them recruiting posters from outside platforms. But AFAIK most of them are real people who were brought onto the forum.

I gotta ask though, like someone else in here mentioned, how is that significantly different from what posters have done in the past? People have recruited from the massive pool of vehemently pro-Jordan users on the GB for years. Users who otherwise have zero interest in PC projects, make low effort posts, and usually dip after the first or second round of voting. But no one was clutching their pearls about that. It’s more handpicked than pooling people from the GB but the intention and effect are the same. You're bringing in like-minded individuals to tilt the project, knowing how pro-MJ the GB skews compared to other corners of the internet. That's why the discussion has always been the highlight of these projects, not the results.

If you want to ban OhayoKD and AEnigma for being previously banned posters, fine. But then handle it quietly and hand over ownership of the peaks project. And if you knew they were PBPs then why wait to do something about it until now if not to turn it into a public spectacle? You said that you were "in the absence of proof". So did new evidence come to light or something? This thread reads more like a call out post for agitated posters to air out every unrelated grievance they’ve had with someone's tone in the past. And if simply knowing about Ohayo’s activities is enough for AEnigma to be called out by name, then congrats, you’ve implicated half the forum. tsherkin and BadGatorade are in there. 70sfan like he said was around for a bit. The creators of MAMBA and BPM are in there. Most of the people pulled in from this forum were invited because of their pre-existing stances on MJ. It’s not some anti-MJ child grooming ring with AI bot accounts. It's a single schizoposter on a basketball forum. Let's stop acting like this is Watergate.

[EmpireFalls]

It’s not some anti-MJ child grooming ring with AI bot accounts.

If anyone is indeed interested in that, though, come on over to the Charlotte Hornets subforum . I promise you the worst things you want to say about His Airness will be tame for the way we feel about him. MJ hate as a Charlotte fan is not only accepted, it’s fully deserved.

[jjgp111292]

I can't say I'm fully comfortable doing this, but Ohayo asked me to post a message they wrote about this whole thing here. Obviously I was a member of their Discord server, though if you look at my posting history, I didn't fellow their lead on the project votes at all. I was actually invited to their server after I joined the forum, if you can believe it. In any case, this is what they said:

*villain motive rant snipped*

Who the **** does she think she is, The Joker of shootyhoops talk?

At some point people gotta step back and realize how goddamn weird they sound, but again; this is 20 year old with too much time on their hand activities. And of course in true unaccountable fashion, she doesn't acknowledge the discord user that flat out said she bartered them for strategic, agenda-based votes But it's what you'd expect from somebody who told somebody to kill themselves because they didn't like the Star Wars prequels and then kept coming back to that discord server like merged Zamasu trying to keep his Zero-Mortals plan strong.

(for the record I think ElPollo is definitely not an alt and all of his posts seem typical of a knowledgable person whose first language is not English)

[jjgp111292]

10-year+ account for automatic entry. Case-by-case exemptions for newer join dates determined by a panel of mods/OGs/respected posters.

Like I said before, this is an insane criteria. A lot of smart people just drop in suddenly or are sporadic in interaction. It goes without saying that 10 years is a *long* time, so all that would do is skew the vote to one specific ideology.

Its really just as simple as a quick spot check through somebody's post history; if it turns out they're still an Ohayo Mayo then hey, it is what it is. The ambition to shaping analytic basketball discussion in one's own image can only be contained but for so long!

[tsherkin]

10-year+ account for automatic entry. Case-by-case exemptions for newer join dates determined by a panel of mods/OGs/respected posters.

I think every single poster who has expressed an opinion has disagreed with this. It's obviously a ridiculous barrier to entry. This is the PC Board, not the board for a handful of OGs to pat each other on the back.

I have to agree with One_and_Done here.

We're looking for quality of discussion. We're also looking for valid, fresh perspectives so we don't just keep authoring the same project over and over again. Needing to be on the site for a decade or more to participate is a wild, senseless restriction. At some point, we do want to incentivize newer posters to join, stick around, participate and contribute positively to the community. You don't do that by ostracizing them entirely.

What we might try is having newer posters require some kind of sponsor from among veteran PC Board posters. I don't know if that's a viable option, it just occurred to me now during First Coffee, but it feels like a reasonable beginning. If you post enough in the regular, day-to-day threads on the PC Board, we can get a bead on your style and quality of posting. And then, when it comes time to ask for participation in a major project, they can post their desire and Doc or whomever is running the project could wait to see if any regular posters with more time-in-service add positive comments about that poster, you know?

So like, 100-post minimum and a sponsor might work?

But definitely not "you need to have already been here for a decade before you can play in our sandbox;" that's just too nutty.

[One_and_Done]

Even the idea of a 'sponsor' is undesirable. It feeds into the insular clique echo chamber leanings that are just as unhealthy as the other extreme of KD & Enigma. We're all adults here, and there is nothing more special about one poster versus another. The idea you need a letter of introduction from members in 'good standing' harkens back to a bygone era where literal blackballing originated from.

Just set a non-trivial post limit, and for people who are new make them participate for a few threads before they get added to the voter pool. There's no real problem here tbh, I'm not even sure those 2 changed the results much. Much is being made out of very little. Ban them or whatever, and put off the peaks project because some of the key participants are gone and it's lost momentum, but this isn't some world changing event.

[LA Bird]

I gotta ask though, like someone else in here mentioned, how is that significantly different from what posters have done in the past? People have recruited from the massive pool of vehemently pro-Jordan users on the GB for years. Users who otherwise have zero interest in PC projects, make low effort posts, and usually dip after the first or second round of voting. But no one was clutching their pearls about that. It’s more handpicked than pooling people from the GB but the intention and effect are the same. You're bringing in like-minded individuals to tilt the project, knowing how pro-MJ the GB skews compared to other corners of the internet. That's why the discussion has always been the highlight of these projects, not the results.

The other side is doing some BS so our side should do worse!

Is such a pathetic excuse. If you know what they did is wrong, why stoop down to the same level? And yes, people definitely complained about previous attempts to manipulate projects too. Look at the replies when ardee made his infamous thread before the 2017 top 100 project:

This kind of maneuvering beforehand just seems childish and petty and misses the point IMO.

Ardee's post epitomizes everything that is wrong with the way people approach player comparisons.

Stuff like this completely goes against the spirit of the project. I'm honestly amazed that you thought this was a good enough idea to actually make a thread on it.

If the OP is serious in his post, I would discourage his participation. I hate to say that. I think projects are best with as many different people and perspectives involved. But anyone openly attempting to manipulate the list probably is going to be more of a detriment than an asset to the project... And you know I typically stand up for anyone who is willing to blaze their own trail here so it disappoints me that I am suggesting you don't participate if this is your honest agenda.

It's a terrible thread because you're openly trying to sabotage the top 100 project

He was widely condemned and the thread was locked within the same day. And what ardee did is nothing compared to OhayoKD. Scripting the ballots of your recruits/alts with the project runner being in on it is magnitudes of degree worse. The board had always disapproved of project manipulation but judging from how some of you are defending these blatant actions, it seems you are fine with any dirty tactic as long as it's your preferred player who stands to benefit.

[tsherkin]

Even the idea of a 'sponsor' is undesirable. It feeds into the insular clique echo chamber leanings that are just as unhealthy as the other extreme of KD & Enigma. We're all adults here, and there is nothing more special about one poster versus another. The idea you need a letter of introduction from members in 'good standing' harkens back to a bygone era where literal blackballing originated from.

Just set a non-trivial post limit, and for people who are new make them participate for a few threads before they get added to the voter pool. There's no real problem here tbh, I'm not even sure those 2 changed the results much. Much is being made out of very little. Ban them or whatever, and put off the peaks project because some of the key participants are gone and it's lost momentum, but this isn't some world changing event.

I hear you, but I don't know that I agree. We're literally in a thread about trust in our project members and everything else, so the idea that there is nothing special about one poster or another isn't quite accurate.

That said, I do like the idea of participation in a few threads before voting ability is given. That's a quality option from previous projects that gives the opportunity to evaluate for a bit, which might be a sufficient substitute for a sponsor.

[tsherkin]

It’s not some anti-MJ child grooming ring with AI bot accounts.

If anyone is indeed interested in that, though, come on over to the Charlotte Hornets subforum . I promise you the worst things you want to say about His Airness will be tame for the way we feel about him. MJ hate as a Charlotte fan is not only accepted, it’s fully deserved.

Yeah, I mean, that's fair. He was the James Dolan of Charlotte.