2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[tsherkin]

I think what confuses me about your perspective is that it's pretty clear to me that the best rookies of all-time come from the era where they played several years of college ball. Literally, all these modern rookies suck relative to the modern NBA compared to Kareem and other guys did with their respective NBA's. So if Kareem could get a ROY, why would eliminate worse rookies from consideration?

Now am I saying that 4 years of college ball now is better than one year plus one year of training with an NBA team? No, but the fact that the best talents just don't stay in college is a big part of that.

I think you're missing my point, so let me clarify.

I don't particularly care about rookies from not-this-era in a conversation about rookies in this era. I agree that 3 or 4 years of physical maturity and skill practice matters. I don't think that has any bearing whatsoever on Chet vs. Wemby or the 2024 ROY race, though, which is why I've been trying to not talk about that in this conversation.

I think that anyone who has that extra time in today's game has an advantage over those who do not, which makes it not a particularly fair comparison in an awards race... and that is largely reinforced by what you're discussing in terms of those earlier rookies, at that.

[Special_Puppy]

Anything from the Thunder winning the championship to being eliminated in the first round are entirely plausible to me. Just a hard team to categorize

[Colbinii]

Anything from the Thunder winning the championship to being eliminated in the first round are entirely plausible to me. Just a hard team to categorize

I would be floored if they won a Championship. They have 0 size to a degree we haven't seen before.

As a team known for going small, Golden State Warriors always had a Bogut/Ezeli/Zaza/Looney along with Draymond as relatively large [or strong in Draymond's case--he is incredibly strong for his height].

It is really difficult to win without size for a majority of the game, though Chet is unique in how he can provide line-up versatility and creativity in a playoff setting. How OKC decides to counter the larger teams in the post-season is going to be an interesting tell in just how good Mark Daigneault can be in a playoff setting. I view this OKC team as a similar monster as Miami over the past 5 seasons--a relatively undersized but potent and multifaceted big man and an elite scoring swing who appears to be neigh unstoppable in spurts.

While OKC winning a championship would surprise me, it has more to do with overall match-ups rather than "inexperience". I wonder if we will get stretches of Zone for OKC in the post-season as it can alleviate the lack of the size on the interior.

[Special_Puppy]

Anything from the Thunder winning the championship to being eliminated in the first round are entirely plausible to me. Just a hard team to categorize

I would be floored if they won a Championship. They have 0 size to a degree we haven't seen before.

As a team known for going small, Golden State Warriors always had a Bogut/Ezeli/Zaza/Looney along with Draymond as relatively large [or strong in Draymond's case--he is incredibly strong for his height].

It is really difficult to win without size for a majority of the game, though Chet is unique in how he can provide line-up versatility and creativity in a playoff setting. How OKC decides to counter the larger teams in the post-season is going to be an interesting tell in just how good Mark Daigneault can be in a playoff setting. I view this OKC team as a similar monster as Miami over the past 5 seasons--a relatively undersized but potent and multifaceted big man and an elite scoring swing who appears to be neigh unstoppable in spurts.

While OKC winning a championship would surprise me, it has more to do with overall match-ups rather than "inexperience". I wonder if we will get stretches of Zone for OKC in the post-season as it can alleviate the lack of the size on the interior.

Their net rating in non-garbage time is +7. That's too good for me to dismiss their titles chances https://www.pbpstats.com/team-leverage-summary/nba?Season=2023-24&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

[Special_Puppy]

Anything from the Thunder winning the championship to being eliminated in the first round are entirely plausible to me. Just a hard team to categorize

I would be floored if they won a Championship. They have 0 size to a degree we haven't seen before.

As a team known for going small, Golden State Warriors always had a Bogut/Ezeli/Zaza/Looney along with Draymond as relatively large [or strong in Draymond's case--he is incredibly strong for his height].

It is really difficult to win without size for a majority of the game, though Chet is unique in how he can provide line-up versatility and creativity in a playoff setting. How OKC decides to counter the larger teams in the post-season is going to be an interesting tell in just how good Mark Daigneault can be in a playoff setting. I view this OKC team as a similar monster as Miami over the past 5 seasons--a relatively undersized but potent and multifaceted big man and an elite scoring swing who appears to be neigh unstoppable in spurts.

While OKC winning a championship would surprise me, it has more to do with overall match-ups rather than "inexperience". I wonder if we will get stretches of Zone for OKC in the post-season as it can alleviate the lack of the size on the interior.

Their net rating in non-garbage time is +7. They have the third best offensive and the fifth best defense. That's too good for me to dismiss their titles chances https://www.pbpstats.com/team-leverage-summary/nba?Season=2023-24&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

[Special_Puppy]

I would be floored if they won a Championship. They have 0 size to a degree we haven't seen before.

As a team known for going small, Golden State Warriors always had a Bogut/Ezeli/Zaza/Looney along with Draymond as relatively large [or strong in Draymond's case--he is incredibly strong for his height].

It is really difficult to win without size for a majority of the game, though Chet is unique in how he can provide line-up versatility and creativity in a playoff setting. How OKC decides to counter the larger teams in the post-season is going to be an interesting tell in just how good Mark Daigneault can be in a playoff setting. I view this OKC team as a similar monster as Miami over the past 5 seasons--a relatively undersized but potent and multifaceted big man and an elite scoring swing who appears to be neigh unstoppable in spurts.

While OKC winning a championship would surprise me, it has more to do with overall match-ups rather than "inexperience". I wonder if we will get stretches of Zone for OKC in the post-season as it can alleviate the lack of the size on the interior.

Their net rating in non-garbage time is +7. They have the third best offensive and the fifth best defense. They also have a MVP candidate. There's too much there for me to dismiss their titles chances https://www.pbpstats.com/team-leverage-summary/nba?Season=2023-24&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

[Peregrine01]

I too would be surprised if OKC made it all the way. The playoffs is a completely different animal - the game slows down, players are allowed to be more physical and every possession matters more. All of this puts more of a premium on size and rebounding. OKC currently ranks near dead last in DRB% and ORB%...these are not good omens for playoff basketball.

[GSP]

Luka really is Euro Harden with counters and thus much better playoff resiliency

his defense is so bad. Horrific defender. Maybe worse than Houston Harden was. Other Mavs can play man well but they always have to zone for him. Pouts and complains, doesnt get back in transition. Teams actually know it too and i bet its on scouting reports. Havent seen a superstars poor transition defense and effort level taken advantage of like this and Carlisle knows it as well as anyone

[WestGOAT]

Luka really is Euro Harden with counters and thus much better playoff resiliency

his defense is so bad. Horrific defender. Maybe worse than Houston Harden was. Other Mavs can play man well but they always have to zone for him. Pouts and complains, doesnt get back in transition. Teams actually know it too and i bet its on scouting reports. Havent seen a superstars poor transition defense and effort level taken advantage of like this and Carlisle knows it as well as anyone

Luka really takes pouting/whining on the court to another level, he makes sulking LeBron look like an angel. Pretty sure every game I've seen of him he chooses to argue with a ref on a "missed call" instead of getting back on defence. His teammates must hate playing with him.

[GSP]

Luka really is Euro Harden with counters and thus much better playoff resiliency

his defense is so bad. Horrific defender. Maybe worse than Houston Harden was. Other Mavs can play man well but they always have to zone for him. Pouts and complains, doesnt get back in transition. Teams actually know it too and i bet its on scouting reports. Havent seen a superstars poor transition defense and effort level taken advantage of like this and Carlisle knows it as well as anyone

Luka really takes pouting/whining on the court to another level, he makes sulking LeBron look like an angel. Pretty sure every game I've seen of him he chooses to argue with a ref on a "missed call" instead of getting back on defence. His teammates must hate playing with him.

Read on Twitter

These are just unforgivable numbers. He doesnt have the 04 Pistons around him or anything but theres no reason they should be this bad on defense and it starts with him hes the biggest culprit of their horrific defense

[Statlanta]

Luka really is Euro Harden with counters and thus much better playoff resiliency

his defense is so bad. Horrific defender. Maybe worse than Houston Harden was. Other Mavs can play man well but they always have to zone for him. Pouts and complains, doesnt get back in transition. Teams actually know it too and i bet its on scouting reports. Havent seen a superstars poor transition defense and effort level taken advantage of like this and Carlisle knows it as well as anyone

Luka really takes pouting/whining on the court to another level, he makes sulking LeBron look like an angel. Pretty sure every game I've seen of him he chooses to argue with a ref on a "missed call" instead of getting back on defence. His teammates must hate playing with him.

Read on Twitter

These are just unforgivable numbers. He doesnt have the 04 Pistons around him or anything but theres no reason they should be this bad on defense and it starts with him hes the biggest culprit of their horrific defense

That tweet is misleading. Facing Indiana twice(a team known for offensive track meet matches), Cleveland(2nd best team in the new year) and Boston(best team in the new year) is just loading the statistical filters with games that easily make your point.

[GSP]

Luka really takes pouting/whining on the court to another level, he makes sulking LeBron look like an angel. Pretty sure every game I've seen of him he chooses to argue with a ref on a "missed call" instead of getting back on defence. His teammates must hate playing with him.

Read on Twitter

These are just unforgivable numbers. He doesnt have the 04 Pistons around him or anything but theres no reason they should be this bad on defense and it starts with him hes the biggest culprit of their horrific defense

That tweet is misleading. Facing Indiana twice(a team known for offensive track meet matches), Cleveland(2nd best team in the new year) and Boston(best team in the new year) is just loading the statistical filters with games that easily make your point.

Theyre the 22nd ranked defense on the season and worse in the games when he plays which would be 25th. Were 24th last and generally been a bottom 10 defense almost every season of his career. Maybe recent schedule makes it look worse but his career already paints a picture of a horrific defensive player one of the worst weve seen among superstars in some time.

[penbeast0]

How would you compare (current) Luka to (prime) Harden defensively?

[RCM88x]

Dean Wade is better than Evan Mobley

I think Harden is probably better, he seemed to actually be pretty decent when interested. Hard to say Luka ever really gets there. Now Harden definitely had stretches (2016 especially) where he was not only disinterested but possibly one of the worst defensive players in the league. Don't think Luka ever has reached that himself either.

[Colbinii]

How would you compare (current) Luka to (prime) Harden defensively?

Locked-in Harden was an exceptional post-defender for a guard. He has good hands and is built like a tank, which allowed him to thrive in a switching system as ending up on a larger player wasn't a mismatch. Having your Point Guard being able to not be a mismatch against a big-man allowed for a ton of defensive flexibility.

I don't think it is close [yet]. I can see Luka getting to that point and Harden didn't get to that point until his mid-late 20s.

[Texas Chuck]

small sample size theater is fun. Dallas had a 7 game winning streak right before this where they had the best defensive rating in the league. Nobody thought they were that.

And then some of the Luka narrative is out of date, but I also know those who buy into lazy narratives won't have their minds changed so yeah he's fat, lazy, and doesn't defend at all..... eye roll

[edgymnerch]

I think Luka's defense is a middle ground between what Mavs fans think and what his haters think. My personal opinion is he used to be a horrible defender but has improved on that aspect quite a bit this season. I still don't think he's an asset (at all) on that end of the court but he's definitely not the huge liability that he used to be

[eminence]

Damn it. This was the year for Minnesota.

[Colbinii]

Ewing Theory, lets roll

[tsherkin]

Damn it. This was the year for Minnesota.

Yeah, that sucks. I dunno that it was actually their year, but it was gonna be a good postseason for sure.