Retro POY '05-06 (Voting Complete)

[JordansBulls]

2006 -
Best Stats - Dirk
Winning - Wade


Top 5 in MVP voting were Dirk, Nash, Kobe, Duncan and Lebron and they were the top 5 guys that season as well. I would put Wade 6th this season as he got hurt.

Dirk led in PER, WS in the season and led in WS in the playoffs with Duncan led in PER in the playoffs and Dirk upset Duncan in the Semifinals, while Wade upset the Pistons and Mavs that season and put up one of the greatest finals ever.
Kobe had some of the greatest games ever that season and one of the best scoring seasons ever, however he did not have the best numbers that season nor success. I think to be #1 you have to have either the best numbers overall that season (leading in PER/WS) or you have to have the accolades/Success.


My voting would be:

1. Wade
2. Dirk
3. Kobe
4. Duncan
5. Nash/Lebron

[bastillon]

I don’t know where did you get this numbers but APM that year is different:

I've seen APM. I don't trust it for this particular year because:
1) it's the first time I've seen Lewin do that ranking
2) Hamilton is almost last in the league while Sheed and Wallace lead it
3) at the time APM was sort of experimental thing and it wasn't until about 2008 that it really started to show some respectable results

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            +/-
    Nash    8.3
    Tim     4.6
    LBJ    10.1
    Kobe   12.4
    Dirk    7.7
    Wade   15.5

these are numbers from 82 games.com

I just don't see how you can discredit Nash when he was leading the Suns to 60W when his team was still healthy and stayed competitive on the boards. try winning 60 games in a season during which your team is getting consistently pounded on the boards. essentially noone can do this.

Nowitzki has the better boxscore metrics AND better +/- numbers. How is that possible that Nash was MUCH better? That is impossible. If Nash was better than Nowitzki is should have at least showed up somewhere, but it didn't.

actually Nash is better in +/- numbers and if you consider that Nash's value in boxscore shows up in his teammates' stats, then he's quite easily better than Nowitzki as well. to see what I mean here:

Shawn Marion - career high PPG on career high ORtg
Raja Bell - career high PPG on career high ORtg
B.Diaw - career high PPG on career high ORtg
Jones - career high PPG on 3rd-best ORtg
Kurt - 2nd best PPG on 2nd best ORtg

I could go on, but the point is clear. the whole team consisted of overachievers who did it solely because of Nash. guys were having career seasons and that's the only reason they stayed competitive.

to me winning 54 games AND getting to WCFs as a point guard without any rebounding whatsoever with a terrible coach, Boris Diaw at center, without any 2nd option to speak of, is more impressive than anything Nash has ever done. give him David Lee instead of Diaw and they'd win 60 games easily solely bc of his rebounding.

not to mention that Suns actually could get into the finals had it not been for the injuries to the entire Phoenix team. there was a stretch in the playoffs when Suns played 15 games in 30 days. when they were facing Mavs pretty much EVERY (and I mean literally) player had some kind of injuries. they could've easily won with the Mavs but you can only go so far in these circumstances.

------------------------------------------------------------------

good discussion so far. you guys convinced me that Kobe and LeBron are out of TOP3. also, this is the year when LeBron won against Wizz bc of travel. I'm actually going with Duncan here - led the team to conference-best record and played amazingly well vs Dallas. I remember thinking back in the day LeBron was much worse than Bryant based on watching them play.

so I'm leaning towards
Duncan #4
Kobe #5
HM: Bron

I'm surprised not to see Wade at #1. led the league in +/-, had great RS overlooked because of injuries, stepped it up in the playoffs, dominated last two rounds like nobody else in those playoffs. to me he clearly seperated himself... and by a good margin.

[mysticbb]

I've seen APM. I don't trust it for this particular year because:
1) it's the first time I've seen Lewin do that ranking
2) Hamilton is almost last in the league while Sheed and Wallace lead it
3) at the time APM was sort of experimental thing and it wasn't until about 2008 that it really started to show some respectable results
4) it doesn't show what I think it should show

Fixed it for you. ;) (j/k)

actually Nash is better in +/- numbers and if you consider that Nash's value in boxscore shows up in his teammates' stats, then he's quite easily better than Nowitzki as well.

No, he is not. I value APM and neither version of that had Nash over Nowitzki. The gap in Net+/- is small, especially when you take into account that Nowitzki was again the only player on the Mavericks roster with a negative OffCourt +/-. Boris Diaw had a better Net+/- than Steve Nash. Diaw had +571 for the season, +487 together with Nash on the court, thus he had +84 without Nash. Nash had +448 for the season, thus he had -39 without Diaw.
And the players who mentioned were also in their peak years due to their age, not only because of Steve Nash.
Nowitzki had a higher individual Win% going either by boxscore numbers or OnCourt Ratings.

And one major factor for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vy0kI4SMvo

Nowitzki willed the struggling Mavericks to that win in game 5 with those 50 pts, outscoring the whole Suns team in the 4th quarter 22-20.

I know that Nash's boxscore numbers are usually not showing his impact, there is no need to tell me that, but the difference is way too huge and I also don't see it in the +/- numbers. Thus Nowitzki was clearly the better player, more wins and going to the finals while upsetting the higher seeded Spurs in the Conf. Semi-Finals.

[TrueLAfan]

Well, if you're pimping playoff production (and/or using alliteration), you kind of have raise Wade pretty significantly. He improved in scoring and rebounding, hit a bunch of threes...he played better than he did in the regular season. And, as noted, he was pretty fantastic in the RS.

Kobe--I actually am impressed by the fact that he was able to tick up in usage and productivity without a decline in efficiency. But I don't think he meshed his game as well with his teammates as he should have during the season, even if the Lakers did take the Suns to 7 games. (I totally agree with ElGee's points about Kobe.) I still think of 2006 as the end of a transition phase for Kobe, where he was recognizing the necessity of functioning within a system more often than going off the reservation.

I, too, was impressed by TD this year, and he had his customary great play in the playoffs and had a sensational performance in the Spurs loss to Dallas in game 7. He should definitely get consideration.

I'm more torn about KG. The Wolves were bad in this season...other than KG, they had no interior play at all and were offensively challenged, to say the least. (When Mark Blount and Michael Olowokandi are your offensive "threats" in the low post...well, you're in some trouble.) And Jaric never fit in well. Still, this is a team that had some perimeter players...this is when Ricky Davis was still a somewhat valuable commodity, and he and Szczerbiak combined to have a full season of a good second scorer. McCants provided some offensive punch off the bench. There was some D on the court as well. It certainly wasn't a good team...but I personally feel that an MVP candidate is worth 15-20 wins over a replacement level player. So for a team to win, say, 33 games, they have to be borderline epically bad without the MVP candidate. KG isn't top 5 for me this year.

Nash...well, others are looking at this as more of a numbers exercise than I am. The impact of Steve Nash was huge and powerful (and still is). There are players whose impact supersedes numbers, and Nash is one of them...which is not to say that Nash had/has anything but great numbers. but his impact was even greater. The Suns are a team with, for all intents and purposes, virtually no low post scoring (which, as Doctor MJ points out became "absolutely no" when Thomas went down); to facilitate a perimeter offense at a high level while making everyone happy is...unreal. There's no way Nash is out of my top 3 that I can see.

Dirk is another lock for the top 3. Great RS; really good playoffs. But the Mavs didn't come together the way they should have in the Finals. That's partly Avery--and partly the deflating loss in game 5 with the missed call on Wade. But Dirk missed a free throw that could have put the game into overtime...and there were times when he could have taken over more in those finals that, in retrospect, may have gotten him a ring. That's harsh and, maybe, a little unfair. He was great. Great enough to be MVP?

Chauncey was the best player on the team with the best record in the league in 2006. But he didn't have a good playoffs, and I don't think being the bets player on the best team always equates with being a top 5 player. For me, it probably doesn't in this season.

LeBron had a great year--better in the regular season, IMO, than he did the next year. He played well in the playoffs too. But, like Kobe, his regular season on court impact was not as great as it could have been IMO...although, again, he wasn't as good as he would be just a few years later.

I could be persuaded to rearrange the top 3 here--actually, I'm not locked in stone on anything in this season--but I'm going to start with:

1.Nash
2.Wade
3.Dirk
4.TD
5.LeBron

HM: Kobe

[mysticbb]

Dirk is another lock for the top 3. Great RS; really good playoffs. But the Mavs didn't come together the way they should have in the Finals. That's partly Avery--and partly the deflating loss in game 5 with the missed call on Wade. But Dirk missed a free throw that could have put the game into overtime

Game 5 went into OT and Nowitzki hit the potential gamewinner at the end of the OT. After that Wade was allowed to make an offensive foul and a palming violation just to call a touch foul on Nowitzki by the referee who was standing at midcourt, while BOTH other referees decided non-call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNfCux_ddM4

The scene starts at 3:55. There was no way that the Heat aren't scoring in that possession just because of the way the game at the end will be called. The defenders weren't allowed to touch Wade, but Wade can violate the rules.

Also look at the end of the regulation how Nowitzki first makes the basket for the tie and then draws the attention of the defender underneath the basket and finds Dampier for that open dunk. And what is Avery Johnson doing? Drawing up a play for Terry for the last shot. What a joke.

...and there were times when he could have taken over more in those finals that, in retrospect, may have gotten him a ring.

How do you want to overcome a 52! disadvantage in FTA over 6 games? Seriously, that is impossible. Dallas had no answer on the perimeter against Wade, because Avery Johnson decided it is more important to focus on Shaquille O'Neal. That opened up a lot of space for Wade against Jason Terry or Devin Harris. Neither is a match for Wade while the Heat had Haslem and Posey against Nowitzki and watch closely how they were allowed to defend Nowitzki, handchecking all over the place.

The Mavericks in the end were one bad call (game 5) and two missed open shots by Terry and Howard (going 12 of 41 combined from the field, 29.3%) away from winning a championship. It would have been: Nowitzki made game winning shot in game 5 and led his team with 29/15 in game 6 to the title. Was Nowitzki better than Wade during the playoffs? No, he wasn't, but he was way closer than most people have in their mind.

I still don't get how Nash can be listed at #1, when the Suns offense without Nash and with Boris Diaw didn't perform worse. That was not all only Nash, he had a huge impact, that is for sure, huge enough to be in the Top5, but not enough to be the best player. Wade and Nowitzki both were better than Nash that season, and you can make a case for Bryant and James too.

[lorak]

I don’t know where did you get this numbers but APM that year is different:

I've seen APM. I don't trust it for this particular year because:

In short – you don’t trust it because it don’t support your conclusion.
You would rather use on court numbers despite they are useless without adjustment.
For example according to “your +/-“ Nash had 8.8 in 2006 but Diaw was even better with 9.6. Or Iverson had 8.6 so I guess he was as good as Nash….

Bottom line:
http://www.82games.com/lewin2.htm
Lewin clearly said that The three guys responsible for the numbers in the two articles above all work for NBA teams now, so their numbers are no longer publicly available. Below I apply their method to the 2005-2006 NBA season.
That three guys are Winston, Rosenbaum and Sagarin so if Lewis is using their method it’s far better than unadjusted numbers you choose.

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Rasheed  20.2
LeBron   19.59
Ben W.   17.92
Kobe     14.34
AK       13.83
Ming     13.63


BTW, some time ago Winston published top players of the last decade according to APM and Rasheed was in the top 10 so his high numbers in 2006 aren’t surprising and it supports conclusion that Lewin’s method is no different (in essence) than Winston’s.

[TrueLAfan]

mysticbb--My bad. Should have said helped avoid overtime. (He did make the jumper after that, so I'm not being too hard on him there.) And Josh Howard missed two free throws in the overtime...but Josh Howard isn't the MVP candidate here.

It's true the Heat took a lot more free throws than the Mavs. But they only made a handful more...three to be exact. And, to be honest, I expect a team that to goes to Wade and Shaq, who combine for around 20 FTA on their own per game, to go to the line a lot, especilaly in the playoffs. The calling of fouls may not have been fair--but my feeling in this case is that the extra FTA had more of an impact on pace than anything else. That may have hurt Avery, who is just not an adjust-on-the-fly sort of coach...but this is not a Richie Powers situation, IMO.

Anyway...Mmmm...Dirk was 2-14 from the field in Game 4 (admittedly, a blowout) and 8-19 in the overtime loss in Game 5. I kind of want my primary MVP candidate player taking more than 19 shots in an overtime Finals game (and Dirk was 1-2 with three fouls in the OT). Dirk played well in games 2, 3, and 6...but, in the playoffs and/or Finals, that's part of being an MVP. You have to play like an MVP more than half the time. And you do have to come through in the pinch. Dirk was 0-4 from the field and scored 2 points in the fourth quarter of game 6. He missed a free throw that would have tied it up with :03 to go in game 3. I was pulling for the Mavs in the series, and I'm a fan of Dirk in general. But I'm sticking with he could have done more. I understand that Terry missed a couple of key shots and (as I said) Howard missed a couple of important FT. But they aren't the MVP candidates...and they both had pretty good series against the Magic (Terry averaged 22 a game and shot 48% from the field; Hoard stunk it up in game 4, but still averaged about 15 and 8 for the series). I don't know how much support an MVP needs from his next two players, but I'm thinking that's not so bad.

[Silver Bullet]

From the outset, I'll make it clear, I probably won't be voting for Wade in my top 3 at least - I have always maintained that Shaq's impact on the Heat gets overlooked - of course he's gonna fare badly in APM or on any stat based on box score numbers. He was 2nd in MVP voting in the preceding year and all of a sudden, in the space one year his contributions are delegated to role player status.

The Heat wouldn't have won a title without Shaq. It's Shaq who has proven he can take a team to the Finals time and again. You can change the shooting guard to Wade, or Kobe or Penny and that team still goes to the Final. You change the center and that team flames out in the Conference Finals.

[ronnymac2]

From the outset, I'll make it clear, I probably won't be voting for Wade in my top 3 at least - I have always maintained that Shaq's impact on the Heat gets overlooked - of course he's gonna fare badly in APM or on any stat based on box score numbers. He was 2nd in MVP voting in the preceding year and all of a sudden, in the space one year his contributions are delegated to role player status.

The Heat wouldn't have won a title without Shaq. It's Shaq who has proven he can take a team to the Finals time and again. You can change the shooting guard to Wade, or Kobe or Penny and that team still goes to the Final. You change the center and that team flames out in the Conference Finals.

People don't say he became a role player.

The Heat would not have won the 'ship without Shaq.

Wade was the best player on that Heat team.

Wade deserves all the credit in the world for using Shaq's considerable impact to his own advantage and making the most of it (and Wade's "making the most of it" was historical).

I say all of this as a Shaq fan.

[ronnymac2]

This year is going to be really fun. It has the potential for fantastic disucssion.

LBJ's got the statistical domination. He played well in his first playoffs as well.

Wade has the performance that made him look like Michael Jordan.

Kobe had the performance that made him look like Magic Johnson (I'll explain this at some point).

Timmy was awesome as usual. Reg season stats went down, but his playoffs were dominant.

The middle year of a three- part theme: Kevin Garnett was awesome but had no help. Where does he go?

Dirk made the finals, and imo didn't play that poorly in the finals.

Nash didn't have Amare, JJ, and Richardson this year. He played great basketball. Where does he go?

I think Allen Iverson will deserve an honorable mention just for the stats. Kidd. maybe? The Rockets had injuries, so no Yao or McGrady, I don't think. What about Shaq? I might argue for him to get an hororable mention (don't really think he can be top 5 this season).

Should be good.

[mysticbb]

It's true the Heat took a lot more free throws than the Mavs. But they only made a handful more...three to be exact.

What you are basically saying is: A team which is able to make their free throws shouldn't get the same calls?
And those calls were not just giving the Heat players opportunities at the line, which they still used more efficiently as from the field, but also caused foul trouble for the Mavericks players.

And, to be honest, I expect a team that to goes to Wade and Shaq, who combine for around 20 FTA on their own per game, to go to the line a lot, especilaly in the playoffs.

The Heat got 28.2 FTA per game in the regular season, 29.6 FTA per game in the rest of the playoffs. They got 34.5 FTA per game in the finals! Around 6 FTA per game more than in the regular season.
The Mavericks got 28.3 FTA per game in the regular season, 28.8 FTA per game in the rest of the playoffs, that dropped down to 25.8 in the finals. They got around 3 FTA per game less than usual.
Overall that makes a difference of around 9 FTA per game for teams who got usual a very similar amount of FTA.

The calling of fouls may not have been fair--but my feeling in this case is that the extra FTA had more of an impact on pace than anything else.

Well, the point isn't even that the Heat got more calls in the end, but how the referees called the game overall. Wade initiated the contact and got the blocking foul, Harris on the other side was called for the offensive foul in a very, very similar situation. It was inconsistent all series long, the Dallas player weren't allowed to play physical defense againt Wade, but the Heat were allowed to play physical against Nowitzki. There is just no way to defend a perimeter player when the game is called like this (btw, one of the main reasons I wanted the Bulls to pick Derrick Rose over Michael Beasley in 2008). Wade got 16.5 FTA per game, set a new All-Time Finals series record, he got more FTA than Shaquille O'Neal in 2000 against the Pacer, a series in which the Pacers actually tried to foul O'Neal to send him to the line.

That may have hurt Avery, who is just not an adjust-on-the-fly sort of coach.

Yes, Johnson never were able to adapt the defense, and drawing up plays for Jason Terry when your best player, best shooter and best clutch performer is hot like Nowitzki in the last minute of that game 5 shows how low his coaching abilities really are. He was a good motivator for the regular season, but he had the luck that Nowitzki emerged as such a great clutch performer which saved his "ass" more than once.
Johnson got outcoached by Riley, and that was not just a small thing in that series.

I kind of want my primary MVP candidate player taking more than 19 shots in an overtime Finals game (and Dirk was 1-2 with three fouls in the OT).

Yes, you are right. And I most certainly blame Nowitzki for not speaking up to Johnson. Nowitzki's personality didn't allow that, he is doing what the coaches expect him to do. He trusted Johnson's game plan way too much and should have taken over more especially in game 6 at the end. It is a similar story one year later, as Nowitzki won the game 5 for the Mavericks as the Mavericks stood with their backs to the wall, being down by 6, and Johnson finally let Nowitzki making the plays.

I don't know how much support an MVP needs from his next two players, but I'm thinking that's not so bad.

How much support? Well, how about a supporting cast which is not scoring less efficient than the opponent? Or turning the ball over more often than the opponent? Terry had a good series, 55.2 ts%, reasonable efficient, but nothing more, especially when you take into account that a Gary Payton on his last leg was his defender and the defensive focus of the Heat was on Nowitzki. Especially in game 6 it was epic what kind of open shots Terry didn't make.
Howard on the other side scored on 48 ts%, 4 percentage points below the Heat in average, he had a 12.8 turnover rate, around the Heat average. Howard was less efficient overall in that series than the Heat in average. And again, that game 6 had some epic missed open shots. A combined 29.6 fg% from your supposed to be 2nd and 3rd best player is really hard to overcome.

Blame Nowitzki for his short comings, but don't overrate that supporting cast and underestimate that disadvantage in free throw attempts.

[sp6r=underrated]

Some thoughts on this season, which is one of the years I've been really looking forward for

1. On any list KG > TD.
2. I think Dirk was better than Wade that year, who was underrated in RS because people overvalued Shaq.
3. Shaq role was smaller than Gasol on the 09 laker team.
4. I'm curious for thoughts on Billups, who I think got overlooked in 08.

[ronnymac2]

Some thoughts on this season, which is one of the years I've been really looking forward for

1. On any list KG > TD.
2. I think Dirk was slightly better than Wade that year, who was underrated in RS because people overvalued Shaq.
3. Shaq role was smaller than Gasol on the 09 laker team.
4. I'm curious for thoughts on Billups, who I think got overlooked in 08.

Why KG over TD?

Shaq was Pau's equal. What you said is not true.

Billups is interesting. I forgot about him. Should deserve an honorable mention. No top 5 though.

[Sedale Threatt]

To me, Wade's Finals illustrate just how much the playoffs have to be emphasized in these discussions. Or in this very specific case, four games in which the legacy of two franchises, and two very special players, were impacted by a performance even Michael Jordan would have been proud of.

An entire 82-game RS doesn't even come close to having the impact of what Wade did in the Finals.

We can make jokes about the officiating all we want -- and most of us have, including me -- but the bottom-line results are all that matters: He pulled off one of the all-time great clutch performances in history to lead his team back from a 2.75-0 deficit.

I thought Hollinger summed it up nicely:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2 ... ormances-1

There is no way I'm going with anybody else but Wade at No. 1. He swung, almost as single-handedly as one player can, the fate of that year's championship. That is the ultimate achievement, in my opinion.

Regarding the other slots, I've read some good reasons to go with Nash and Nowitzki over Kobe, who I had entered planning to put No. 2 without much question.

I do find it interesting that he's being knocked for lack of defense, in a season in which he handled as much scoring responsibility as anybody in recent history, while Nash -- a sieve if there ever was one -- gets a pass.

No matter. Taking that team as far as he did was a tremendous achievement, and he deserves to be recognized for that.

Kind of leaning towards Nash/Nowitzki/Kobe at this point, but we shall see how the next few days pan out.

[mysticbb]

1. On any list KG > TD.

I would actually tend to do that, because Duncan didn't really had a good year due to his injury. But Garnett wasn't as good as in years before or after either. It is also true that Duncan showed his strength in the playoffs, especially in that epic series against the Mavericks where he had 32/12 per game. Putting everything together Duncan might get the slight edge when the focus is more on the playoffs.
But overall I have 5 players ahead of them, thus I don't need to make that decision. Both got HM from me for their respective seasons.

[Baller 24]

Nash was HUGE this season. Let's look at some things first:

- Suns traded Joe Johnson and Q. Rich both highly contributing starers the previous season.

- Amar'e was out with micro-fracture surgery, whom was Nash's main go-to inside scoring option in terms of offensive production, it was by far the easiest player for him to set up.

- Suns replaced them with Raja Bell, Boris Diaw, Eddie House, James Jones, Tim Thomas, and Kurt Thomas. That's a total of six new players that Nash utilized as key players for production throughout a span of an 82 game season.

- Raja Bell didn't really have a name for himself prior to coming to the Suns, Boris Diaw was considered a wasted draft pick that showed absolutely no potential, Eddie House was honestly nowhere near as explosive of a player that he is now, James Jones had an appalling reputation of chucking away shots, Tim Thomas was himself, and Kurt Thomas was used to pretty much add size and replace Amar'e and his size presence.

- Starting off the season you can't expect this team to be in the same championship contention season as they were the year before, absolutely not. Especially with the way that three starters that were key producers the year before, were not on the team anymore or injured for the remainder of the season.

- Nash stepped it up big in a significant way (18 ppg 11 apg FG 50% 3PT 40% FT 90%), led the team to a 54 win season, and as they were down 3-1 in the First-Round of the playoffs, brought them back and won the series, and led them to their second consecutive appearance in the WCF.

- Also I'd like to not that some of the key players that were utilized by Nash, enjoyed career highs in TS% (Bell, Diaw, ect.). I think his impact was very significant in that teams success, and the fact that they made it that far in the playoffs, shows something. It's ridiculously hard to replicate a similar season from the year before when three key players in the starting lineup are replaced by players who never had any kind of significant impact the season before. So, yeah in that sense, Nash is my first.

Wade is going to be my second here, he was fantastic throughout the regular season, but AMAZING throughout the playoffs, he averaged something like 67% Shooting against the team with the best record and the DPOY, overall a strong defensive team.

Dirk was great, had the team success, the individual stats, carried the team to the finals, and probably would have won it if his teammates hadn't completely faded away. I'm going with him as my third. TD most likely would have to be my forth as I think it would have been a swap with Dirk if it wasn't for him being knocked out the playoffs by Dirk's team , and as I'm inclined to say Kobe as my fifth, I like what LeBron did with his team that season, first season in the playoffs, led the team to a 50 win season, put up some epic numbers, and for the first time in his career, he was a leader that showed his significance.

1) Nash
2) Wade
3) Dirk
4) Duncan
5) James

EDIT: As for the Shaq/Gasol thing, I agree with ronny here, he was Gasol's equal. He contributed heavily in the success of the team in the playoffs, his presence was significantly great---especially in the ECF, where he made Ben and Sheed look like clowns, he was VERY dominant.

[sp6r=underrated]

Why KG over TD?

Duncan's RS was very poor. His defensive impact wasn't nearly the same. He was suffering from planter fasciitis which really limited his impact that year. I think this has been forgotten because of the Dallas series.

Shaq was Pau's equal. What you said is not true.

Well, to begin with Gasol played in 22 more games that year in the RS. In the post-season, Shaq's RS stats went down because he was turning the ball over like Kemp and his defense was very poor at times. Gasol, in the PS was actually more efficient as scorer, passing the ball far better, avoided turnovers, and played much better defense. So yea 09 Gasol > 06 Shaq.

Billups is interesting. I forgot about him. Should deserve an honorable mention. No top 5 though.

I wasn't necessarily saying Billups was top 5, but I did feel his name should be thrown out there.

[Silver Bullet]

Some thoughts on this season, which is one of the years I've been really looking forward for

1. On any list KG > TD.
2. I think Dirk was slightly better than Wade that year, who was underrated in RS because people overvalued Shaq.
3. Shaq role was smaller than Gasol on the 09 laker team.
4. I'm curious for thoughts on Billups, who I think got overlooked in 08.

It wasn't smaller than Gasol's role on the 09 Laker team.

He averaged 19 and 10 in the playoffs, to put that in perspective, you just gave KG the MVP for averaging 19 and 8. He averaged 3.4 offensive rebound in the post season -
His regular season numbers were 20 and 9 on 60% shooting. His PER was 24.4, exactly the same as Duncan in 07-08 and nearly everybody voted for him, and a touch behind KG - and he was the MVP.

To put it in perspective - GAsol's career high in PER in 24.1 - His highest on the Lakers is 22.9 - His best season ever statistically is 20.8 and 9.8 - Shaq was better than that.

So no, Shaq wasn't playing Gasol's role on the Lakers, he was playing Duncan's role on the 07-08 Spurs - that is MVP level production.

[ronnymac2]

Why KG over TD?

Duncan's RS was very poor. His defensive impact wasn't nearly the same. He was suffering from planter fasciitis which really limited his impact that year. I think this has been forgotten because of the Dallas series.

Shaq was Pau's equal. What you said is not true.

Well, to begin with Gasol played in 22 more games that year in the RS. In the post-season, Shaq's RS stats went down because he was turning the ball over like Kemp and his defense was very poor at times. Gasol, in the PS was actually more efficient as scorer, passing the ball far better, avoided turnovers, and played much better defense. So yea 09 Gasol > 06 Shaq.

Billups is interesting. I forgot about him. Should deserve an honorable mention. No top 5 though.

I wasn't necessarily saying Billups was top 5, but I did feel his name should be thrown out there.

His series against Dallas is something I can't ignore. He played too well there. I'm not going to penalize Duncan too much for the regular season.


If you want to take Pau over Shaq in the Reg Season because of the games played, fine. Pau was ecellent in the playoffs, but Shaq's impact there was just as crucial for his team. Miami faced Chicago, a team that matched up with them well. What did Shaq do? He killed them in game 1 to set the tone, then made sure there would be no game 7 by dropping 30/20/5 on their home floor.


Then Detroit....He dropped something like 22/11/2/60% against the 64 wins Pistons with 2 all-stars in the froncourt. The Wallaces plus the other Piston bigs were tough on defense, too.

Wade was amazing in that series, but he had the flu in game 6. The year before, Detroit beat the Heat in 7 when Wade couldn't play in game 6. There is no way Miami wanted to go back to Detroit this time for another game 7. What does Shaq do? Drops 28-16-5.

Now, I know his numbers won't look too great against Dallas (although 14-10 on 60% shooting isn't bad). However, his impact on the game was pretty important here. Dwyane Wade had the most epic performance perhaps that I have ever seen. Part of that (and this is something I actually credit Wade for) was using O'neal. Shaq was getting constantly doubled and tripled in that series, especially the first few games. Dallas was not going to let Shaq beat them. So....Wade annhilated them. Dallas had their back turned to Wade, and by the time they turned their attention to him, it was too late. He was too dominant. Shaq's ability to open things up for Wade in the beginning was fairly large though. Pau might produce more and he and Kobe may have more synergy, but I don't think Pau can command that amount of attention to free things up for Kobe to that extent.

I think that impact makes Shaq Pau's equal as a player. In my opinion, a little better.

[Sedale Threatt]

Just read back through the entire thread; good arguments for and against a lot of guys.

One thing to note about L.A.'s adjusted strategy in the playoffs -- that was predicated almost entirely by the matchup against Phoenix, which started a PF at C and a SF at PF. It was 100% correct, but I highly doubt the Lakers would have done that against a more standard opponent.

Otherwise, I agree with ElGee's assessment of Kobe. I remember reading some article about a classical pianist who said it wasn't the actual notes that made a difference in how one played, but the pauses. I've never played, so I have no practical experience, but something about that statement seems to fit with Kobe.

He adjusts his game to fit the tempo of the game on occasion, such as Game 5 against OKC. But for the most part, he only knows one speed. Saddled with a crappy supporting cast like he was in 06, that only gave him more of a reason to take matters into his own hands. Right or wrong -- and I tend to think there wasn't much he could have done to massage more out of that group, which was truly awful -- that is his way.

As Bill Simmons noted recently, what makes that so frustrating is that he does sprinkle Game 5s around. You know it's in him to get his teammates involved and take games as they come, but it just doesn't come naturally to him. But that single-minded aggression is also what makes him great, so I just try to grit myself through the rough patches it brings.

Even after 14 seasons, that's still hard.