Retro POY '85-86 (Voting Complete)

[Manuel Calavera]

Rankings Thus Far.


1. Larry Bird - Won League MVP and Finals MVP, Led the league in Win Shares and Win Shares PER 48 minutes and PER. Led in Win Shares in the playoffs and finished 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 4th in PER in the playoffs.

2. Dominique Wilkins - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, 5th in season PER, led the league in PPG, All NBA First Team.

3. Magic Johnson - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, Finished 3rd in Win Shares and 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes in the season and 4th in PER. Finished 4th in Playoff Win Shares and 1st in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 2nd in Playoff Win Shares.

That upset to Houston here comes into play.

JB, for someone who values PER & WS so much, how in the World can you put Nique over Magic this year?

Regular Season
Nique - 30.3/7.9/2.6, 47% FG, 54% TS, 10.8 WS, 23.3 PER
Magic - 18.8/5.9/12.6, 53% FG, 61% TS, 12.1 WS, 24.0 PER
^
Nique led the league in scoring, but Magic led the league in assists. By every metric you usually value, Magic out performs Nique.

So that leads to the post-season where LA was upset by Houston. Even here, Magic significantly outperforms Nique.

Playoffs
Nique - 28.6/6.0/2.8, 43% FG, 51% TS, 0.3 WS, 16.7 PER
Magic - 21.6/7.1/15.1, 54% FG, 60% TS, 3.0 WS, 25.6 PER
^
I mean really, how can anyone who values PER & WS even think this is close.

Because there's still an off-chance that Magic/Kareem/Wilt ends up passing Jordan on the all-time shares list.

[JordansBulls]

1985-86 Candidates

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     82  38.0  25.8  .580   9.8   6.8  2.0  0.6  3.2  15.8  25.6
Magic    72  35.8  18.8  .610   5.9  12.6  1.6  0.2  3.8  12.1  24.0
Hakeem   68  36.3  23.5  .560  11.5   2.0  2.0  3.4  2.9   9.5  24.2
Barkley  80  36.9  20.0  .619  12.8   3.9  2.2  1.6  4.4  10.8  22.4
Kareem   79  33.3  23.4  .603   6.1   3.5  0.8  1.6  2.6  10.8  22.7
Moncrief 73  35.2  20.2  .604   4.6   4.9  1.4  0.2  2.4  11.7  20.0
Nique    78  39.1  30.3  .536   7.9   2.6  1.8  0.6  3.2  10.8  23.3

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Bird     18  42.8  25.9  .615   9.3   8.2  2.1  0.6  2.6  4.2   23.9
Magic    14  38.6  21.6  .599   7.1  15.1  1.9  0.1  3.2  3.0   25.6
Hakeem   20  38.3  26.9  .566  11.8   2.0  2.0  3.5  2.3  3.7   25.6
Barkley  12  41.4  25.0  .631  15.8   5.6  2.3  1.2  2.7  2.0   23.8
Kareem   14  34.9  25.9  .586   5.9   3.5  1.1  1.7  3.0  1.6   21.2
Moncrief  9  36.3  16.9  .508   4.6   4.9  0.6  0.6  2.3  0.4   13.0
Nique     9  40.0  28.6  .510   6.0   2.8  1.0  0.2  3.3  0.3   16.7

Awards Recognition

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
================================================
Bird        1       -      1st       ---
Magic       3       -      1st       ---
Hakeem      4       -      2nd       ---
Barkley     6       -      2nd       ---
Kareem      5       -      1st       ---
Moncrief    7       3      2nd       1st
Nique       2       -      1st       ---

Early Rankings:

1. Larry Bird
   
   
2. Magic Johnson
   
   
3. Hakeem Olajuwan
   
   
4. Charles Barkley
   
   
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I'd like to hear more about the Lakers/Rockets WCF as I don't remember too much from back then. I know that Sampson sealed the deal in Game 5, but Hakeem and Reid were also key throughout IIRC. If anyone has time to rewatch, I'd be interested in hearing more analysis for games 2-4.

You are not going to put a guy who finished #2 in MVP voting in your top 5?

Vote encompasses the whole year--pretty severe dropoff by Nique in the playoffs; both boxscore and advanced stats.

Probably had to do somethign with the Celtics defense as they were #1 that year.

[JordansBulls]

Rankings Thus Far.


1. Larry Bird - Won League MVP and Finals MVP, Led the league in Win Shares and Win Shares PER 48 minutes and PER. Led in Win Shares in the playoffs and finished 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 4th in PER in the playoffs.

2. Dominique Wilkins - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, 5th in season PER, led the league in PPG, All NBA First Team.

3. Magic Johnson - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, Finished 3rd in Win Shares and 2nd in Win Shares per 48 minutes in the season and 4th in PER. Finished 4th in Playoff Win Shares and 1st in Win Shares per 48 minutes and 2nd in Playoff Win Shares.

That upset to Houston here comes into play.

JB, for someone who values PER & WS so much, how in the World can you put Nique over Magic this year?

Regular Season
Nique - 30.3/7.9/2.6, 47% FG, 54% TS, 10.8 WS, 23.3 PER
Magic - 18.8/5.9/12.6, 53% FG, 61% TS, 12.1 WS, 24.0 PER
^
Nique led the league in scoring, but Magic led the league in assists. By every metric you usually value, Magic out performs Nique.

So that leads to the post-season where LA was upset by Houston. Even here, Magic significantly outperforms Nique.

Playoffs
Nique - 28.6/6.0/2.8, 43% FG, 51% TS, 0.3 WS, 16.7 PER
Magic - 21.6/7.1/15.1, 54% FG, 60% TS, 3.0 WS, 25.6 PER
^
I mean really, how can anyone who values PER & WS even think this is close.

Because there's still an off-chance that Magic/Kareem/Wilt ends up passing Jordan on the all-time shares list.

Is this a joke? All your rankings you have just listed players 1-5 and NEVER given an analysis of why any player is #1, #2, #3 or etc.

I've actually changed my vote on a few occassions like with Malone and Robinson a few times.

How about you give some detailed analysis for a change instead of just saying 1. Bird, 2. Magic, 3. Hakeem, etc.

[semi-sentient]

You are not going to put a guy who finished #2 in MVP voting in your top 5?

I'm not really all that impressed with Nique, and he was a pretty distant 2nd in the MVP race anyway. He scored a ton of points, sure, but he was not really that efficient (and downright awful in the playoffs) and he was certainly never much of a play-maker or passer. I value a good mix of both unless your a center. Personally, I think him and Moncrief (DPOY) are in a tough battle in the HM bracket. Both had great RS, but fell off hard in the PS.

[Optimism Prime]

JB, for someone who values PER & WS so much, how in the World can you put Nique over Magic this year?

Regular Season
Nique - 30.3/7.9/2.6, 47% FG, 54% TS, 10.8 WS, 23.3 PER
Magic - 18.8/5.9/12.6, 53% FG, 61% TS, 12.1 WS, 24.0 PER
^
Nique led the league in scoring, but Magic led the league in assists. By every metric you usually value, Magic out performs Nique.

So that leads to the post-season where LA was upset by Houston. Even here, Magic significantly outperforms Nique.

Playoffs
Nique - 28.6/6.0/2.8, 43% FG, 51% TS, 0.3 WS, 16.7 PER
Magic - 21.6/7.1/15.1, 54% FG, 60% TS, 3.0 WS, 25.6 PER
^
I mean really, how can anyone who values PER & WS even think this is close.

Because there's still an off-chance that Magic/Kareem/Wilt ends up passing Jordan on the all-time shares list.

Is this a joke? All your rankings you have just listed players 1-5 and NEVER given an analysis of why any player is #1, #2, #3 or etc.

I've actually changed my vote on a few occassions like with Malone and Robinson a few times.

How about you give some detailed analysis for a change instead of just saying 1. Bird, 2. Magic, 3. Hakeem, etc.

Whoa. Settle down now. A lot of times, by page 7, there's not much to add.

[JordansBulls]

You are not going to put a guy who finished #2 in MVP voting in your top 5?

I'm not really all that impressed with Nique, and he was a pretty distant 2nd in the MVP race anyway. He scored a ton of points, sure, but he was not really that efficient (and downright awful in the playoffs) and he was certainly never much of a play-maker or passer. I value a good mix of both unless your a center. Personally, I think him and Moncrief (DPOY) are in a tough battle in the HM bracket. Both had great RS, but fell off hard in the PS.

I think I need to figure out what Nique did in Round 1 vs Detroit that year and then what happened against Boston. If he was the same in both series than I would have to move him down, but if he was good against Detroit and not so good against Boston, then it would be a bit tougher to decide where to place him, afterall he did lose to a top 3-4 team all time.

[semi-sentient]

True. It's also going to depend on how Kareem did against the Rockets -- on both ends. Was he a liability on defense? Did the "Twin Towers" shut him down, thus causing the best offense in the league to somewhat stall?

[JordansBulls]

Here is the 1986 Finals.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1986.htm#

Hakeem averaged 24/12 and 3 bpg on 48% FG.

Edit: Didn't realize Mchale played that well in the finals. It actually looks like he played as well as Bird if not better.

[mysticbb]

I think him and Moncrief (DPOY) are in a tough battle in the HM bracket.

Alvin Robertson got DPOY, not Moncrief (got it in 1983 and 1984).

[semi-sentient]

I think him and Moncrief (DPOY) are in a tough battle in the HM bracket.

Alvin Robertson got DPOY, not Moncrief (got it in 1983 and 1984).

Ooops, you're right. Moncrief was still a fine defender though.

[shawngoat23]

I should be studying instead, so I'll keep my ballots short and post early in case I don't have time to get my votes in before we close.

1. Larry Bird
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kevin McHale
5. Charles Barkley
HM: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Sidney Moncrief, Dominique Wilkins

Larry Bird is an easy choice at number one. I had Magic and Hakeem neck-to-neck, and initially had Magic higher on the basis of the Lakers being markedly better in the regular season and with the assumption that Magic was more productive during the season. In fact, their advanced stats are comparable, and they finished almost neck-to-neck in MVP voting, so Hakeem gets the #2 spot in a close call over Magic because his Rockets, while very well constructed, were heavy underdogs against a pretty stacked Laker squad.

I didn't have McHale on my initial watchlist, but he had a pretty impressive season and stepped it up in the playoffs and Finals, so between a very solid regular season and the Celtics' team success, I'll bump him over the other names on my list.

Barkley actually led the Sixers in statistical production and MVP recognition, which is impressive consider the names on that squad (Malone, Erving, Cheeks, Jones). He also brought his A-game in the postseason, which is reason enough for me to put him above Kareem, who had a fine season all around, but whose team fell short in the WCF despite being heavy favorites. Kareem was still a stud but couldn't play major minutes, and I would have liked to seen the Captain make more of an impact in the WCF.

'Nique was going to get a vote from me for the third straight year on the strength of his regular season, where he finished a strong #2 in MVP balloting. But I'm not convinced he was demonstrably better than any of the other names thrown around, and I am certainly not impressed with his postseason.

[penbeast0]

Now that the Jordan years are over and school is ended, I figure I'll start chiming in. Some good posts as always, convinced me that McHale is top 5 which I don't think I started out thinking.

1. Bird -- pretty clear consensus as the leader of the champions with great individual numbers
2. Hakeem -- the playoff victory gives him the edge over Magic
3. Magic -- 2B, terrific playoff but if all else close, defense wins out and not in Hakeem's class
4. McHale -- as I said, not feeling him until I looked at the posts and the finals. That and the other top players shot themselves out of it one way or another (Nique and Moncrief literally).
5. Moncrief -- Had a horrible playoff and lost early but was the leader of a 57 win team and solid offensively (20ppg on 60% tsp) while still the best man defender in NBA history.

Other mentioned players --
Barkley -- Philly won less than Milwaukee despite greater talent around Barkley than around Moncrief though Barkley had a much better playoffs. That and Barkley wasn't the best player on Philly despite the numbers; Moses was.
Nique -- Again, Milwaukee was the better team and they both crashed come playoffs.
Kareem -- Was the other serious top 5 candidate but really, 5 rebounds/game as a center? That and he's slipping defensively by this point too.

[Doctor MJ]

Barkley -- Philly won less than Milwaukee despite greater talent around Barkley than around Moncrief though Barkley had a much better playoffs. That and Barkley wasn't the best player on Philly despite the numbers; Moses was.

Here's what I see:

Philly played basically the whole season with Moses as their primary scorer. He doesn't play in the playoffs. In the playoffs without him, they get just as far as you'd expect them to get with him, Barkley's numbers go from great (20/13/4, on his way to finishing 6th in the MVP) to ridiculous (25/16/6 on 63% TS), and despite the fact that they play two of the best defensive teams in the league, the offense's efficiency improves.

Not sure whether Barkley will be in my top 5 or not because he wasn't having that impact all year, but Barkley seems pretty dang impressive to me.

Re: Moncrief, been looking forward to more analysis on him from you and others. I know how revered he is (and makes sense way, incredible 2-way player), but he strong tendency to fall off - at least statistically - in the playoffs. For example this year, Moncrief was 1st on the team in PER and WS in the regular season, but in the playoffs he felt to 8th and 7th.

My apologies for focusing more on the stats, I freely admit that I don't have as much first hand experience as we're getting further into the past.

[Gongxi]

Moncrief is going to need a lot more support to get him into my top 5, not that I'm against it. I'm also pretty surprised to see Hakeem as high as 2 on several ballots, but then I realized: "Oh yeah! The Rockets went to the Finals, of course suddenly he's a better player again."

That said, I'll probably look at putting him in instead of Barkley, maybe even Nique. I overlooked how many games Hakeem's respectable postseason production extended. But #2? What a coincidence that is!

[sp6r=underrated]

Hakeem was 4th the last three years, and the last two years behind the same three players Jordan, Bird, Magic. Jordan was injured this year, so out of the three players he trailed he only had to move by one to reach the 2nd spot.

Hakeem if he moves up to 2nd will have moved up one whole spot on a few ballots. Big Deal. Give it a rest with your pompous tone.

[Mean_Streets]

1. Larry Bird
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kevin McHale
5. Sidney Moncrief

Bird is the obvious #1. By the end of '86 he was getting GOAT arguments, nearly averaged a triple double in the Finals. Hakeem surprised many and outplayed Kareem in the WCF, but he was still too green to be considered #1. Magic falls to #3 because of that WCF series, that series proved Magic wasn't ready to truly become the Lakers leader (unlike in '87). McHale by '86 was considered the league's most un-guard-able player, a defensive beast, & the league's best PF. He played outstanding in the playoffs & was the 2nd best player on the floor during the '86 Finals. I Was going to put Dominique at #5, but I am not much of a Wilkins fan. He was an explosive scorer in '86 averaging over 30 PPG, but he didn't play defense & couldn't pass, he simply didn't know how to make his teammates better. This might sound crazy, but I would rather have a prime Moncrief on my team than a prime Dominique, I just feel my team would succeed more with Moncrief.

[Gongxi]

Hakeem was 4th the last three years, and the last two years behind the same three players Jordan, Bird, Magic. Jordan was injured this year, so out of the three players he trailed he only had to move by one to reach the 2nd spot.

Hakeem if he moves up to 2nd will have moved up one whole spot on a few ballots. Big Deal. Give it a rest with your pompous tone.

This is the same group of folks that voted the Finals MVP as #1 for 13 straight years. We don't need to give this type of thinking a rest- on the contrary, we need to stress it more.

[ItsMillerTime]

Early Rankings

1. Bird -Obvious IMO
2. Hakeem- Top 5 in RS, but his PS play and good team success pushes him over Magic
3. Magic- Just another vintage Magic season
4. Dominique - Led a pretty mediocore Hawks team to 50 wins, and could have made a longer run in the PS had they not faced the GOAT team.
5. Barkely - If Moncrief had a better PS outing, he would have gone here. Barkely played well in the RS, and then really stepped in up for the PS. Best player on a star studded team.

HM: KAJ, M. Malone, Moncrief, Thomas

[JordansBulls]

Hakeem was 4th the last three years, and the last two years behind the same three players Jordan, Bird, Magic. Jordan was injured this year, so out of the three players he trailed he only had to move by one to reach the 2nd spot.

Hakeem if he moves up to 2nd will have moved up one whole spot on a few ballots. Big Deal. Give it a rest with your pompous tone.

This is the same group of folks that voted the Finals MVP as #1 for 13 straight years. We don't need to give this type of thinking a rest- on the contrary, we need to stress it more.

In 2009 Lebron won POY and didn't make the finals. In 2008 Pierce won Finals MVP and Garnett won POY. In 2007 Parker won finals mvp and Duncan won POY. In 2004 Billups won POY and Garnett won POY.

It just happens in the 90's as I've always stated that the best player in the league ended up winning the finals mvp as well.

[Gongxi]

Yes, JB, I know there are some times when it didn't happen. That should be a normal thing, though, not something you point to a handful of times.