Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10

[Sedale Threatt]

And it's one game out of like 90+.

Like a regular-game in February deserves equal billing with a pivotal, series -- and season -- changing Game 5, right?

I get what you're saying. But I also don't understand how anybody can try to say all games are created equal with a straight face.

All games aren't the same. Some games are more important than any 20 regular-season games put together. This was one of them. As such, it wasn't just one game out of 90-some. Not even close. It dealt a death blow to what had been a championship-or-bust season.

Like I said, I'm not sure it's enough to knock LeBron out of first considering he was seemingly so far ahead of the pack. When I try to put somebody in front of him, it doesn't seem very satisfying.

At the same time, I'm not sure if I've ever seen anything like that performance. The sheer indifference of it still blows me away.

[semi-sentient]

1) James---fairly easily
2) Wade
3) Bryant
4) Durant
5) Howard

What's funny is that James had a triple double in a losing effort of Game 6. We, including the media perceived it to be a bad game for James. If let's say Bryant, Durant, or even Wade put up a triple double in a losing effort in the same situation, I guarantee that they wouldn't be getting close to the kind of heat James got, they'd probably get praised on some counts.

I'm going to post these quotes just so that people don't forget what the thought was at the time. These are quotes from Cavs fans, taken from their threads.

When your superstar quits on your team, that is the nail in the proverbial coffin. Brian Windhorst has noted how perplexed LBJ's teammates are at his aloofness. The rest of the team cannot count on LBJ. He is obviously not interested in playing for Cleveland and his true colors have been shown.

Still, I want to see the rest of these guys continue to fight so we can assess this team moving forward.

Really disappointing end to the LeBron era. Nothing else to add. I wonder what's the real problem of LeBron but who cares Cavs are losing and that's the only thing that matters.

Those comments were posted in the game 6 thread, and you can bet that they were even worse in the game 5 thread.

Here's what Cavs fans had to say about game 6 while it was happening:

lebrons shot is ugly. What the **** is wrong with him?

At least LeBron is being aggressive, but his shooting is still garbage.

holy fuc..somebody needs to yell at lebron and wake him up.

Was it just me or did LeBron have one of the quietest triple doubles in history... He just seemed to be going through the motions, and seemed not into the game... He`s been like that since game 5... I dont know what his problem was...

Funny that a lot of people will look at LBJs stat line and say that he had a good game, but his team was not very good. Shame on LBJ and the rest of this team for quitting. Please blow this thing up Danny Ferry.

...

Teams take the example of their leader. LBJ has no heart and the Cavs followed his lead.

I'm shocked by the lack of urgency

The last two quotes are very telling about LeBron's lack of leadership and how he failed to prepare his team, not to mention his general lack of effort and urgency which directly impacted the results.

[Dr Positivity]

Settled on:

1. Wade
2. Kobe
3. Nash
4. Lebron
5. Howard

Wade is just a little better than Kobe. Slightly better scoring, slightly better passer, did more against the Celtics in the PS. If we're ignoring team help he deserves the edge. RS was pretty impressive too - this year's Heat had one of the worst 2-12 47 win+ teams I've seen. I think sometimes supporting casts without all-stars get underrated, like the Cavs the last 2 years, but this year's Heat really weren't good. Carlos Arroyo, QRich, Michael Beasley, and JO? And no bench? That's total balls. Wade's RS success is as impressive as Kobe's.

I had some problems with Kobe's RS. Thought he shot too much. With that said can you really dock him for a RS where he led a team to #1 in the West? The Lakers accomplished almost all they needed to in the RS so I guess he was effective enough. Playoffs he had some help from weak ds in Phoenix and Utah, but came up at the right times against OKC and Bos even if the #s weren't as great. 6 for 24 was bad. But like the Bulls against Indy Game 7 in 98, he and Gasol hit the boards to make up for it

If Lebron played hard and just got stifled like Kobe and Durant I'd put him #1. I can't get over his demeanour. Game 5 was the nadir, but I didn't like the way he came out in Game 2 or Game 6 either. And it wasn't just an elbow injury. I spent the night after Game 5 reading reactions on RealCavsFans forum. The people at the game said it was even worse in person. He barely warmed up, was sitting on the bench by himself look at the ceiling during timeouts, wasn't interacting with anyone. On tv it was one of the most bizarre performances I've seen from a star. Just didn't show up at all. I made the comment that if it came out the week after Lebron had bet on the other team, I'd be surprised but in a "Michael Jackson is dead" way, where you go "Oh, well that makes sense". Lebron played like a point shaver that night. I'm penalizing him for it. I've said before the value of a RS to me is setting yourself up for the playoffs. Giving you the seeding and homecourt advantage. But the playoff work is what really matters. In most cases I can slightly forgive bad shooting nights or poor series, because a lot of these numbers in a small sample come down to luck and the contrast between your offense and their d, and the shots they can get you. But in the rare case of something like this - Where a player's mental makeup coming into games had such an impact, I'm treating it as a step above being injured in the PS.

Nash had an amazing season. He invigorated guys like Dudley, Frye, etc. Brought a Suns team to the brink of the finals nobody thought would be there. And kept the Amare train on track. I think as a player he was just about at the level of his MVP seasons. Plus he was awesome in the playoffs, particularly dispatching the Spurs. His Game 4 to me was the opposite of Lebron's Game 5. I'm putting Nash ahead of him.

Howard was the DPOY, best rebounder, and his presence rolling to the rim opened up the 3pt line leading to a great offense. My only beef with him is this offensive strategy is enourmously succesful in the RS and completley flawed in the PS. A great d like the Celtics just picked Howard's offensive impact off the table by playing him straight up and closing down on the shooters. This is where Howard's rolling to the rim, 20ppg .60 TS% doesn't signify his weakness. He needed actual moves in that series and needed to be able to create shots for his teammates himself.

HM: Durant - Fantastic season. Not his time yet. Was a playoff rookie, played like a playoff rookie. Can't put him above the other guys yet. He'll probably make the next 10 ballots

Other HMs: Dirk, Deron, Melo

[Sedale Threatt]

I can't get over his demeanour. Game 5 was the nadir, but I didn't like the way he came out in Game 2 or Game 6 either. And it wasn't just an elbow injury. I spent the night after Game 5 reading reactions on RealCavsFans forum. The people at the game said it was even worse in person. He barely warmed up, was sitting on the bench by himself look at the ceiling during timeouts, wasn't interacting with anyone. On tv it was one of the most bizarre performances I've seen from a star.

Agreed. It wasn't just what happened -- everybody has off nights, even the best -- but the way it happened. Not sure it's enough to knock him out of my top spot, and certainly not all the way down to fourth, but still. I'm not sure if I've ever seen anything like it.

It was baffling then, and it's baffling now even, with some time to digest and reflect. Like it was the last game of a 20-win year, and he had a plane to catch for the Bahamas, instead of a series-swinging Game 5.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I have to wonder why Lebron gets a pass for postseason short-comings. Has any other team failed to make the Finals with the best record, 2 years in a row? Not to sound harsh, but if players get credit when they lead their team despite the odds(Hakeem), then there should also be some penalty for under-achieving too.

I ask this because when we look at other players throughout the project, there hasn't been the same mentality.

- 07' Dirk: MVP, All-NBA 1st, fantastic RS leading Mavs to 67 wins, but lost to the GSW in the 1st round. He ranked 3rd that year, Had no 1st place votes, and 10 votes in the 4th & 5th spots.

- 06' Wade: 2nd All-NBA team during the year, 6th in MVP voting, but a great PS put him at #1 with 16 votes. Meanwhile, Dirk who was 3rd in MVP, and lost the FInals in 6, only got 2 1st place votes.

- 95' DRob: MVP, tremendous RS, but loses out to Hakeem because of the Rockets PS run. Ends up in 3rd.

Even in the 83' discussion that just started, I'm sure Moncrief's PS success, and Bird getting swept will play a major role in voting.

[Doctor MJ]

The first round exit is one thing, but there's also the matter than in the regular season, Wade just wasn't as good as last year. There were clear flaws to Wade's play this year, particularly early on. If I'm going to give a guy on a mediocre team #1, it's a hell of a lot easier if they guy played his best the whole way through. As it stands, I think LeBron's regular season is just clearly superior to Wade's - and is one losing series, however impressive, enough for him to make that leap?

Considering the pivotal game 5 and how Lebron played in it going 3-14 in it with HCA then yes it does make a difference.[/quote]

But again, Wade vs LeBron: Wade's team lost also, much more easily. If you thought Wade was already even or superior than LeBron, then that's fine, but moving Wade ahead of LeBron based on one bad game LeBron had against a team that killed Wade's team just seems bizarre to me.

[Sedale Threatt]

I don't hold 09 against him in the slightest. He went down scratching and clawing, with both guns blazing like Arnold Schwarzenegger in "Commando."

This year, though, yeah, it absolutely has to be held against him. Game 5 wasn't the only poor game in that series. He was below par in at least two others, and you can make a case that Game 6 wasn't all that great either if you don't take the stats at face value.

Glancing back over the linescores, other than two scoring explosions and the 19 rebounds in Game 6, I just think, "mediocre." For him, of course.

After the Cavs stole back homecourt, he proceed to shoot under 40% in all three games, while averaging more than six turnovers per game, while averaging about eight points under his average, as his team goes down in flames.

But he had a triple double in Game 6. Hooray!

[Doctor MJ]

What were the flaws with Wade's game early on? I honestly don't watch many Heat games (maybe 10 games this year), so the only thing I can think of is that he slacked off at times early on and didn't play good defense.

The same is true of LeBron though. I remember in the MVP thread (through December, at least) quite a few Cavs fans were vocal about LeBron not taking the game serious enough and slacking off big time on defense, so that's something I'm weighing in.

Kobe, on the other hand, really started struggling in January/February due to injury, so really, that's the only reason I didn't put him #1. Those two months were among the worst of his career, and while he has an "excuse", I kind of knocked him for playing through injury back then as I felt he was somewhat hurting the team and should have sat out a few weeks. He came back strong in March though, and played extremely well in the playoffs overall.

Well first look at the stats generally, Wade lost 4 ppg on his scoring while seeing a significant decrease in efficiency. His PER dropped, his +/- dropped, and he played significantly less. It's no anything tricky to conclude he was playing worse than last year over all. And the big issue is early in the year, his TS% through December was 52.7%, from January on it was 58.6%.

As to why, the criticisms levied were typically that he was resorting to long jump shots more than previous years due to being out of shape. I don't feel comfortable expressing certainty over this, but there were criticisms at the time, and the stats back up that there was a problem.

Regarding the other guys, Kobe had an even bigger dip, LeBron saw no dip anywhere near like the other two - it's just that his team got off to a relatively slow start.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't hold 09 against him in the slightest. He went down scratching and clawing, with both guns blazing like Arnold Schwarzenegger in "Commando."

This year, though, yeah, it absolutely has to be held against him. Game 5 wasn't the only poor game in that series. He was below par in at least two others, and you can make a case that Game 6 wasn't all that great either if you don't take the stats at face value.

Glancing back over the linescores, other than two scoring explosions and the 19 rebounds in Game 6, I just think, "mediocre." For him, of course.

After the Cavs stole back homecourt, he proceed to shoot under 40% in all three games, while averaging more than six turnovers per game, while averaging about eight points under his average, as his team goes down in flames.

But he had a triple double in Game 6. Hooray!

Definitely agree with this thinking to a degree. LeBron was a monster the previous playoffs, and he wasn't this year. It should be held against him.

That said, the dismissing of what he did in Game 6 is not fair. A game where a guy goes for 19 rebounds is always impressive, and it's impossible to do it without being a dominant, active presence. When he does that while also scoring 27 points and 10 assists, that's tremendous.

[Sedale Threatt]

Just to follow up some other posts, here's what LeBron averaged in Cleveland's four losses to Boston:

22 points -- eight less than his average
10 rebounds -- nearly three more, boosted heavily by the 19 in Game 6
6.3 assists -- more than two less than his average
6 turnovers -- a little less than double his average

While shooting 37% from the floor -- 11 percentage points less than his average -- and 2 for 17 on 3s. So it's pretty clear his sub-par play wasn't just limited to one game.

And none of this is getting into all the observations about his indifference, lack of energy, etc.

[Sedale Threatt]

When he does that while also scoring 27 points and 10 assists, that's tremendous.

Where does 8-for-21 shooting and nine turnovers factor in? I'd call that an above-average game (for him) with some pretty big shortcomings.

[shawngoat23]

I'm going with LeBron #1 and Kobe #2. I'll follow that with probably some combination of Wade, Durant, and Howard. Dirk might sneak up there.

I actually had Kobe behind the other 5 guys before the playoffs, because he missed so much time with injury and because the Lakers were somewhat disappointing in the regular season considering how talented they were. But he was good enough with the postseason--and capped it off with a championship--to jump all the way to #2. I'm willing to give the postseason disproportionately more weight because the Lakers' one goal was to defend their championship, not to claim the regular season crown or anything.

But that being said, LeBron was too far ahead of the pack this year. He's still clearly #1 in my book.

[Sedale Threatt]

But that being said, LeBron was too far ahead of the pack this year. He's still clearly #1 in my book.

That's the thing I'm running into. Even as I critique his postseason performance, I'm not finding anybody that feels like a good choice ahead of him.

[Doctor MJ]

When he does that while also scoring 27 points and 10 assists, that's tremendous.

Where does 8-for-21 shooting and nine turnovers factor in? I'd call that an above-average game (for him) with some pretty big shortcomings.

Definitely factors in, and it's part of why there's a legit debate. I just think it needs to be made clear that other than 1 horrible game, James was still playing at a superstar level.

And of course, that 1 horrible game is very relevant as well.

[semi-sentient]

^^^ Cavs fans definitely disagree that he was playing like a superstar in any of the last 3 games. Read those quotes I posted earlier. Those are from Cavs fans and are taken from the game 6 thread on their board. It goes way beyond just numbers.

[JordansBulls]

^^^ Cavs fans definitely disagree that he was playing like a superstar in any of the last 3 games. Read those quotes I posted earlier. Those are from Cavs fans and are taken from the game 6 thread on their board. It goes way beyond just numbers.

Hey Semi- I see your location. Are you pulling for Germany in the World Cup?

[semi-sentient]

^^^ Cavs fans definitely disagree that he was playing like a superstar in any of the last 3 games. Read those quotes I posted earlier. Those are from Cavs fans and are taken from the game 6 thread on their board. It goes way beyond just numbers.

Hey Semi- I see your location. Are you pulling for Germany in the World Cup?

Yep, pulling for Germany (was born/raised there). I don't know if we can take Spain, but if we do, I think we win it all.

[JordansBulls]

^^^ Cavs fans definitely disagree that he was playing like a superstar in any of the last 3 games. Read those quotes I posted earlier. Those are from Cavs fans and are taken from the game 6 thread on their board. It goes way beyond just numbers.

Hey Semi- I see your location. Are you pulling for Germany in the World Cup?

Yep, pulling for Germany (was born/raised there). I don't know if we can take Spain, but if we do, I think we win it all.

Nice. I am pulling for Germany as well and said the tourney started that they would win it all. We will see though.

[Doctor MJ]

^^^ Cavs fans definitely disagree that he was playing like a superstar in any of the last 3 games. Read those quotes I posted earlier. Those are from Cavs fans and are taken from the game 6 thread on their board. It goes way beyond just numbers.

What I was really trying to say is that if you take the James play over that 5 game stretch, it's still superstar level. Yes, not every game was stellar, but some of the games were far beyond stellar as well.

As for my take: He had an off game in Game 4, but the team had just broken back home court advantage - no one ever blinks an eye at a game like that on its own. Game 6 again, yet it's possible to play even better, but there exists no one who plays better than LeBron's Game 6 level on a regular basis. If LeBron plays well in Game 5 and the team wins, nobody's looking at him going into Game 7 thinking there's anything majorly wrong.

Game 5 was the terrible game. Maybe enough to make him fall from #1, but it's still just one game of badness, not a whole series of badness.

I'll be a bit more plain: LeBron had two games against Boston that were arguably better than any Kobe had, and if we named the 5 worst games the two guys had against Boston you can make a great case that Kobe had 3 of them. In other words, It's really not that clear that Kobe did better against Boston than LeBron, and if it's not a landslide in Kobe's favor, how can you justify ignoring that LeBron was clearly better over the 90 or so games of the remainder of the season?

That's not meant to be rhetorical, I'm really debating this myself, but I think you can see my struggle. If Kobe had torn up Boston like he tore up Phoenix, he would take this hands down - but that didn't happen.

[semi-sentient]

Yeah, it's a struggle for me as well. Numbers aside, the thing that I'm knocking LeBron for the most is his lack of leadership. Not only did he not get his teammates fired up and instill confidence in them, he pretty much did the exact opposite by coming out lethargic in game 5. One game, sure, but even in game 4 there were times that he didn't quite look like himself. I raved about LeBron's leadership during the regular season and how I thought he had his team playing with the right mindset, but that same leadership was lacking in the playoffs and that's why they got bounced early once again.

I keep thinking of how Kobe went berserk in game 5 against the Celtics while everyone else laid an egg, prompting him to ask "Who is going to take a stand with me?" before game 6. I wonder why a guy like LeBron doesn't show that same kind of passion and leadership. Things like that make a difference, and in this particular case you can see how the Lakers responded when Kobe issued that challenge. Those qualities tend to go unnoticed, but they matter and they impact the end result.