Retro POY '73-74 (Voting Complete)

[Optimism Prime]

True, don't think your 150/150 club is going to hold up though it isn't common. Bobby Jones did the "never done" 150/150 in each of his first 3 seasons, plus Kirilenko did it once. For that matter, Hakeem Olajuwon got 200/200 in 1989 which I think may be the only time that's been done; and David Robinson got 150/300! in 1992.

They didn't keep numbers for the 60s or Russell would probably have a few; maybe even Wilt -- he as active defensively as Russell was but if you showed him a stat, he might focus on it like he did assists, lol.

Now I just picture Wilt going "Ooo! Shiny!" and going off to play with a new toy.

[Sedale Threatt]

Yeah, he would have been all over that.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Kareem
2. Erving

This was a virtual tie for me, but a couple things gave the slight edge to Kareem this year. a) I consider the NBA slightly ahead of the ABA at this point b) Kareem gives his team more spacing relative to his position than Erving (who has an ok jumpshot), c) If I was picking in a draft between these two players, I likely take the big man to build around

Lanier and McAdoo look like the next best players in the NBA as the most impressive players in the raw stats, advanced stats, and MVP voting. Cowens, Barry, Hayes, Frazier, Havlicek also have good years, with Cowens/Hondo of course winning the title. Next best players in the ABA are Gilmore, Issel, McGinnis, Gervin. I put Lanier and McAdoo above all those guys this year. Lanier has a more complete game on both sides, and McAdoo is just too statistically dominant. So Lanier or McAdoo? Lanier has the defense, McAdoo more offense. I'm taking Lanier for one reason - I value experience. McAdoo is a young 22 years and really playing his first year as the man. I don't like +/-, but one of the things it's taught me through it's use this decade is players in their first couple years almost uniformly do poorly on it. Unsurprisingly, franchise players usually take until their 3rd year before their team starts winning. Also when in doubt, go with the guy who's stats turned into wins, albeit I do think Lanier had the better team around him (but maybe not 10 games better). With this into account, I like Lanier here.

3. Bob Lanier
4. Bob McAdoo

5th place... Cowens, Frazier, Issel, Gilmore, Hayes. I'll take Cowens and Barry over the rest. Cowens was the best player on the title team, dropped a 19/16/4.4 with great intangibles. Barry puts up a 25/7/6 and anchors a 2nd overall ORTG for those worried about his efficiency. Doesn't make the playoffs despite a 44 W team. Can't vote for Barry this year because he had the team to make results, particularly with Nate Thurmond at C + two other decent scorers in Cazzie Russell and Jeff Mullins. If you give an elite perimeter guy a dominant defensive C and a couple other scorers, you need the results to make this list.

Once again Hayes probably gets less respect than he deserves for putting up huge stats on good teams, but eh. Don't like his attitude, don't like his turnaround jumpers or FG%, and this is a tough time to crack a list. Sorry E

5. Cowens

[semi-sentient]

I didn't do much research this year, so I'm going to rely heavily on what others have said. Like Sedale, I find these years rather uninspiring, and with the ABA being included I find it difficult to truly weigh players from different leagues against each other. Anyway...

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Bob Lanier
4. Bob McAdoo
5. Walt Frazier

HM: Kobe

[lorak]

1. KAJ
2. Dr J
3. McAdoo
4. Lanier
5. Barry

[drza]

I didn't do much research this year, so I'm going to rely heavily on what others have said. Like Sedale, I find these years rather uninspiring, and with the ABA being included I find it difficult to truly weigh players from different leagues against each other. Anyway...

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Bob Lanier
4. Bob McAdoo
5. Walt Frazier

HM: Kobe

Your HM made me laugh out loud, inside my head.

Like you, the NBA/ABA split is getting tiring/repetitive for me as there's just no way to really separate at the top. Once again, Kareem and Doc look like the 2 best players overall but with no real way to gauge them. And after Gilmore being a potential top option in the last vote, he's not even really mentioned here while still getting 2nd in the ABA vote? McAdoo is great in the box score stats, but I don't love relying on those without more context and/or more reliable advanced stats so I don't know what to do with him. Cowens is putting up strong numbers on a champion, but is he just a good player on a champ or the main reason they became champs? Argh.

Anyway, I'll stick with the Kareem/Doc 1-2 punch. I started to go Doc/Kareem just to shake things up, but I don't have a real reason to do it and if I'm going against the grain I'd feel like I should justify my vote more.

I like Lanier at 3. From what I can tell he had a similar regular season statistical impact as McAdoo, but was a much better defensive player (not well measured by stats) and had a much better post season.

Cowens, Gilmore, Barry, Havlicek, McAdoo and Frazier are all in my mix for the last 2 spots. The primary argument I've been seeing for Frazier is that the rest of his team wasn't that great and they were a solid playoff team, which goes to his benefit. The thing is, I just don't see enough separation between he and the main 3 or 4 supporting players to give him enough extra credit to make up the gap between he and some of the others under consideration. I would tend to vote Barry here somewhere after him being a consensus #1 the year before, but his case isn't overwhelming and I agree with the logic that he should have been able to do more with a solid cast. Havlicek and Cowens are both strong players on a champion, but neither really stood out from the other nor produced the numbers to vault them to the top of a vote.

That leaves me with Gilmore and McAdoo. McAdoo had the statistical dominance and got his team to the postseason, while Gilmore was very clearly the 2nd best player and best defender in the ABA and led the 2nd best team as well. Again, unsure how to break the tie across leagues. But Mac has been on most ratings lists and I haven't seen Gilmore at all, plus I gave Kareem the NBA/ABA boost over Doc, so to balance things out a bit I'll put Gilmore at 4.

1. Kareem
2. Erving
3. Lanier
4. Gilmore
5. McAdoo

[penbeast0]

This year Detroit had a better defense than Buffalo, but that wasn't the rule. Lanier's defensive impact with the Pistons was poor over the decade he played for Detroit except for this year and his rookie and last years when he split time with better defensive centers (Detroit was also reasonably strong the year before and after Lanier joined the team); he was an offensively focused player (as was McAdoo of course -- but people aren't saying McAdoo was a good defensive player).

[ItsMillerTime]

1. KAJ
2. Dr. J
3. McAdoo
4. Lanier
5. Barry

HM: Gilmore, Frazier

[ThaRegul8r]

One article on Kareem this season:

As many basketball buffs will remember, the only player ever to score 100 points in the NBA was Wilt Chamberlain, back in 1962.

But how about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

“Sure I know Kareem could score 100 points in a game if he wanted to,” says coach Larry Costello of the Bucks.

Nate Thurmond of Golden State says, “If it isn’t Kareem, it won’t be done again.”

Al Attles, Golden State’s coach, who played in Wilt’s 100-point game comments, “I doubt if I’ll ever see another 100-point game again.”

Abdul-Jabbar says, “That was in another era. I don’t think it could be done now.” And when asked if he could score 60 or 70 in a game, he answered, “If the chance is there, yes, I could do it, but only if I have to. You’ve got to keep everyone involved in the game. That is important if you want to win.”

[ronnymac2]

Emergency vote...couldn't do much this week.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Julius Erving
Bob Mcadoo
Rick Barry
Walt Frazier

HM for alliterative names: Willie Wise and Pistol Pete Maravich

HM: Lanier, Gilmore, Cowens, Hayes, Hondo

[Manuel Calavera]

Kareem
Erving
Lanier
McAdoo
Barry

[TrueLAfan]

True, don't think your 150/150 club is going to hold up though it isn't common. Bobby Jones did the "never done" 150/150 in each of his first 3 seasons, plus Kirilenko did it once. For that matter, Hakeem Olajuwon got 200/200 in 1989 which I think may be the only time that's been done; and David Robinson got 150/300! in 1992.

They didn't keep numbers for the 60s or Russell would probably have a few; maybe even Wilt -- he as active defensively as Russell was but if you showed him a stat, he might focus on it like he did assists, lol.

See? This is what happens when you're traveling and writing on netbooks in airports. Thanks for catching that.

Am I the only one who's surprised at how well Dr. J is doing in this? I mean, I expected him to do well...but not this well. And, despite my mistake about the blocks/steals, I'm sticking with the premise. I think Dr. J was a very good to outstanding defenive player for most of his career, and was really great this year on that end.

[penbeast0]

Hakeem
DRobinson
Bobby Jones
Kirilenko

and nobody else since they started keeping the stats?

That's still pretty impressive defensive company

[shawngoat23]

I was planning to do a writeup last night, but my Internet was down. I'm kind of in a rush right now, so I'll submit a quick vote and elaborate later this evening after the votes have been counted:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Bob McAdoo
4. Bob Lanier
5. John Havlicek

Pretty sure about my top two, but by no means am I sure that KAJ is superior to Erving, except I'm deferring to the fact that the NBA is probably slightly stronger this year (unlike say, 1976). Confident about my #3 and #4 guys. Lots of candidates for #5, but Havlicek won the tiebreaker because of his solid regular season and his Finals MVP performance.

[Optimism Prime]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Bob Lanier
4. Bob McAdoo
5. Walt Frazier

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Kareem
2. Julius
3. McAdoo
4. Lanier
5. Hondo

As much as I love Erving, and as much as he really is worthy of #1 here generally, it's really not that close. Kareem's #1. Would be interesting to really think about '76 Erving against this Kareem, but at this point in his career, I don't see how you can think he was as dominant as Kareem.

McAdoo & Lanier - the other big number big men in the NBA. Comfortable with putting them ahead of the non-Ervings of the world.

I'll go with Hondo over Frazier or Gilmore. While the title itself was controversial and not a reason to knock Kareem, I think what Hondo did in the process was fantastic. He really solidifies himself as an all-time great this year.

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

[ElGee]

My 1974 POY Ballot:

1. Kareem
2. Erving
3. Lanier
4. Barry
5. McAdoo

Like many others, I didn't really get too deep into this year (it's missing something for me), so I certainly feel less confident in this vote than years past. Kareem was a clear No. 1. I feet pretty good about Erving at No. 2 -- I do wonder in a year lacking the craziness of his 1976 campaign, if Julius was the second best player. From reading and watching what's available, his team felt a little like the 91 Bulls in terms of breakthrough performances. Going with him by default almost.

At No. 3, Bob Lanier wins out. He's been on my radar a bunch, missing time in other years due to injury. While I don't hold the same "valuable" criteria someone like True uses, it's apparent that Lanier is doing a lot for Detroit. He doesn't seem like the greatest defender, but I think he had a good year on that end. Everything else was fantastic, and I tried to run a +/- calculation from his missed games the year before and his number was pretty huge at about +8. (Unfortunately, I couldn't locate all him missed games).

Fourth is interesting -- Barry v McAdoo from 1975, only in slightly different circumstances for each player. I think McAdoo's MVP voting in 74 was boosted by novelty and Jack Ramsey's brilliance to force matchup issues and push the game. McMillan seemed to have a great effect as well. With that said, I believe McAdoo was definitely better in 75. Barry's numbers across the board were really good -- including his TS%, for him at least -- and the team results were impressive (2.4 SRS). I'm not really buying the Cazzie and Thurmond arguments, because I question how valuable they were at the time. So basically, I think Rick Barry's pretty darn good and he gets the nod at No. 4 (GS had the 2nd best offense in the league).

Havlicek, Frazier, Hayes and Gilmore were all up for the final spot. This was a very deep year and I'll briefly comment on them: For Hondo, it might be his best season. The comparison with a player like Barry was clear for me though, and despite having different skills, I see Barry getting more out of more teams. Havlicek was always the guy making the big shot, or sparking the big run, and ironically he laid an egg in game 7 of the Finals. Despite having a good team, the SRS wasn't huge and that was a factor for me.

Speaking of laying an egg, I might have had Frazier No. 5 if he didn't brick the first few games of the Celtics series so badly. They senselessly booed him off the Garden floor he struggled so much. To his credit, he rebounded with a monster performance, but that was just enough to tilt Clyde out of that spot.

And a fun final fact on Elvin Hayes. He was the NBA's all-time leader in playoff FG% after his first 16 playoff games and finished 1974 tied with Wilt Chamberlain in that stat. That's like Shaq leading the league in FT%.

[Optimism Prime]

Huh, so far Kareem has all but one first place vote this year.

I decline to comment further; just pointing that out.

[Benjammin]

Huh, so far Kareem has all but one first place vote this year.

I decline to comment further; just pointing that out.

You're very observant.