Magic Johnson vs. Lebron James

[CB4MiamiHeat]

Lakers were putting up 120 points a night. They played at a pace that made the Warriors look like they walk the ball up and down the court.

And what about in 91, when Magic took the Lakers (without Kareem OR Michael Cooper) to the Finals, while posting 19/7/12.5 at a pace of 94.1 possessions per game, which would be 6th in the league today and some 6 possessions slower than the Warriors?

Want to try again?

ok, but are those numbers superior to what Lebron did in Cleveland? ....
What about Lebron taking the Boobie Gibson, and Larry Hughes to the Finals as well? ..

What kinda of numbers would Lebron put up in a high paced team ...well see next year, but theyll be very similar to Magics....and is he not clearly a better defensive player?

A Kobe vs. Jordan comparison would go 20 pages back and forth here ..
but if you compare Lebron to Magic people act insulted .. It makes little sense to me.
I dont think theres this big gap that people like to think.

[tsherkin]

ok, but are those numbers superior to what Lebron did in Cleveland? ....

Not terribly relevant, given what you said. You were fundamentally incorrect about Magic's abilities and the pace of the teams on which he played. And yes, I'd probably take 87 Magic over any edition of Lebron so far. I wouldn't call it an easy decision, nor a very big gap, but Magic's ability to command an offense is unmatched. Nash comes pretty close, but even he couldn't do what Magic did.

What about Lebron taking the Boobie Gibson, and Larry Hughes to the Finals as well? ..

Let's not forget to mention Anderson Varejao, Big Z and the other guys that helped make the Cavs the 4th-best defense in the league, yes? They were awful offensively, but Lebron wasn't an All-Defensive type player that year. He had help, just not of the traditional or well-rounded sort. And he did have 3 competent 3-point shooters stretching the floor, and both Big Z and Drew Gooden played semi-competently or better in the playoffs (rebounded reasonably well, etc). The East was pretty ugly and weak that year, too. Lebron was great, sure, but it wasn't any more impressive than Iverson in 01 or Kidd in 02 and 03.

I agree that the gap isn't a huge one. There's a decent argument for Lebron, although I think people tend to overvalue scoring a little. This year will be an interesting test. Lebron certainly has more physical talent than Magic had and he's a very good player already as well. I'm just notquite ready to say he had the same kind of impact as Magic at this time. Soon, maybe. But not yet. Magic was phenomenal. Transendent. Game-changing, as in, understanding of the game. Revitalized the sport alongside Bird. These are some big things, and he made some key and significant evolutions in his game over time. Lebron's major evolution has been to move to the forward positions so that he's not guarding 1s and 2s, and packing on more muscle. Helpful, no doubt, but he hasn't made huge strides in terms of his skills. We'll see in Miami, with a competent coaching staff, though.

[Village Idiot]

A Kobe vs. Jordan comparison would go 20 pages back and forth here ..
but if you compare Lebron to Magic people act insulted .. It makes little sense to me.
I dont think theres this big gap that people like to think.

Magic has a legacy and a reputation as not only one of the greatest players of all-time but also as an outstanding human being. He was partly responsible for the turnaround of the league and growth into the strong league it is today. Magic was highly respected by fans of other teams. LeBron, on the other hand, hasn't proved anything of long-term value to anyone but himself. Where Magic not only tantilized and fulfilled expectations, LeBron has done nothing but alienate fans. He has a long road ahead of him to chance perceptions of him. Being on the star studded, self-created Miami team won't help matters. Even if he wins people will say he's playing with a stacked deck. LeBron will surely never reach the popularity and positive impact of Magic.

[stacey_is_king]

Lakers were putting up 120 points a night. They played at a pace that made the Warriors look like they walk the ball up and down the court.

And what about in 91, when Magic took the Lakers (without Kareem OR Michael Cooper) to the Finals, while posting 19/7/12.5 at a pace of 94.1 possessions per game, which would be 6th in the league today and some 6 possessions slower than the Warriors?

Want to try again?

I wish Magic, Kareem, MJ, and Wilt were all reborn and implanted in today's league.

[megarover]

Lakers were putting up 120 points a night. They played at a pace that made the Warriors look like they walk the ball up and down the court.

And what about in 91, when Magic took the Lakers (without Kareem OR Michael Cooper) to the Finals, while posting 19/7/12.5 at a pace of 94.1 possessions per game, which would be 6th in the league today and some 6 possessions slower than the Warriors?

Want to try again?

A Kobe vs. Jordan comparison would go 20 pages back and forth here ..

quote]
Unless you mean 20 pages of every poster on this board talking sense into a Kobe homer kinda like we are trying to do for you.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

A Kobe vs. Jordan comparison would go 20 pages back and forth here ..

quote]
Unless you mean 20 pages of every poster on this board talking sense into a Kobe homer kinda like we are trying to do for you.

Weve established that Magic is better at running a team and making plays for others ..weve also established that Lebron James is a better scorer and a better defender.

Im still waiting for someone to talk some sense in to me as to why this isnt a close comparison.

[JordansBulls]

A Kobe vs. Jordan comparison would go 20 pages back and forth here ..

quote]
Unless you mean 20 pages of every poster on this board talking sense into a Kobe homer kinda like we are trying to do for you.

Weve established that Magic is better at running a team and making plays for others ..weve also established that Lebron James is a better scorer and a better defender.

Im still waiting for someone to talk some sense in to me as to why this isnt a close comparison.

Well for one, one got it done on the biggest stage as the best player on his team a few times.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

Unless you mean 20 pages of every poster on this board talking sense into a Kobe homer kinda like we are trying to do for you.

Weve established that Magic is better at running a team and making plays for others ..weve also established that Lebron James is a better scorer and a better defender.

Im still waiting for someone to talk some sense in to me as to why this isnt a close comparison.

Well for one, one got it done on the biggest stage as the best player on his team a few times.[/quote]

well .. he dropped 45 points in Game 7 vs. Boston in 2008 .. and it wasnt enough.
he averaged 38-7-7 against the Magic .. and they lost in 6 games in 2009.

People need to stop throwing around the myth that Lebron James isnt a great playoff performer.
His playoff averages are better than his regular season averages, which is pretty rare.

This thread is more about Lebron James vs. Magic Johnson ..not Mo Williams, Varejao,etc vs. multiple Hall of Famers.

[dub81]

To early to compare...

Magic had Big Game James, Karrem, Byron Scott, Cooper, Vlade in his later years. He had some talent that made his job easier.

Let's see how well Lebron does with and actual TEAM he's on now.

He still has a chance to be the G.O.A.T

[rrravenred]

I don't think the gap is absolutely massive when you look at them as players (Lebron has range and driving ability, Magic has better court vision, versatility and a low-post game).

I'd put it to you that Magic's jumper was better than Lebron's... at least by the end of his career. He was certainly a better FT shooter and was extremely comfortable out to 20 feet, plus, he had some really good 3pt shooting seasons at the end, when he was starting to hit 90% at the line, etc.

Towards the end, absolutely. But comparing Magic's "prime" to current Lebron I'd say Lebron is a better jumpshooter. Not massively, but definitively. Lebron plays further from the basket though (both in terms of WHERE his moves start as well as where he takes his shots).

Lebron's more of a scorer, and he's a better defender. He's not nearly as good at running an offense, though, or helping other players as he seems. Still a transcendent talent, but he's just not as good at doing what Magic did... of course, Magic couldn't score like Lebron does, not consistently over a whole season, anyhow, but that wasn't his MO anyway.

Well using Magic as a volume scorer is a waste of his abilities. The heat tenure MAY prove that Lebron belongs in that club, although I doubt it. The court vision isn't in the same league, I absolutely agree, but I'd say that Lebron's not only "more" of a scorer but also a better scorer. Seven more FGA, and Magic only twice in his career managed to match Lebron's average TS%. (but see below for the big caveat)

<snip long and absolutely accurate narrative of Magic's greatness>
Hell, just watching him in the 95-96 comeback tells you what you need to know, he could average 7 apg as a PF in 30 mpg because he could create passing opportunities from the POST so well.

Magic THRIVED in the post, which made him a deadly half-court weapon. He wasn't a crazy PnR player (Riley likes to joke that Magic didn't really ever run it, or somesuch).

And that's the really big difference between the two as players. Back-to-the-basket. Love Lebron's game, even if his choices as a sportsman (rather than a player) can be questions, but until he develops that inside out utility I'll take Magic. Magic's versatility gives him the nod currently, but not by a huge amount.

[llllllllllllll]

Magic for now...

[tsherkin]

Towards the end, absolutely. But comparing Magic's "prime" to current Lebron I'd say Lebron is a better jumpshooter. Not massively, but definitively. Lebron plays further from the basket though (both in terms of WHERE his moves start as well as where he takes his shots).

By about 87, I'd say. No earlier. I mean, smoked Lebron as a mid-range shooter and FT shooter by then, for sure, but his range didn't really start to get going until maybe 89ish, that's true. And it isn't a huge gap in terms of shooting ability, either, at least not face-up perimeter shots. And yeah, Lebron starts further out, Magic was all about the post whenever he could get there, which is a big failing of Lebron's and strength of Magic's. Relatively speaking, of course, since LBJ is amazing.

Well using Magic as a volume scorer is a waste of his abilities. The heat tenure MAY prove that Lebron belongs in that club, although I doubt it. The court vision isn't in the same league, I absolutely agree, but I'd say that Lebron's not only "more" of a scorer but also a better scorer. Seven more FGA, and Magic only twice in his career managed to match Lebron's average TS%. (but see below for the big caveat)

Agreed. I would agree that Lebron is a better perimeter scorer. He's a nastier physical specimen, that's for sure. That's the biggest difference, IMO. Magic loved to pass, and he drew fouls as well as anyone you'd care to consider, but you've got the TS numbers backwards.

Magic's career TS% is 61%, Lebron's is 56.2%. Magic smokes Lebron in that regard. Magic had three seasons under 60% TS, and all of them werer 58%+. Lebron's had two seasons of 58%+. Don't get that mixed up. A lot of it is the difference in volume (and FT%), but Magic was WAY more efficient than Lebron.

[rrravenred]

Dead right I got it the wrong way around <grin>. I utterly recant.

The efficiency is (for me) tied up in where Lebron plays. He has that monstrous athleticism and uses is with pretty brutal effectiveness, but Magic's skill could be executed far more reliably in far less space far closer to the basket.

[tsherkin]

And as I said, a nod must be given to the fact that Lebron habitually shoots something like 50-60% more per game than Magic did, because Magic was more focused on distribution than on shooting, and like I said, he drew fouls very well and shot a much better percentage from the FT line.

Lebron, however, fully comprehends how unstoppable he is when he drives to the rim and he does it a lot, which makes sense. He's also improved his jumper, though people aren't really acknowledging that widely just yet, even though he's shot a percentage not far from Kobe's just under the arc and from downtown these past two seasons.

Absolutely, though, Magic's choice of operating zones helped him out... he was all about the post. There isn't really anyone similar in terms of post passing ability since he's retired. There have been some good passing centers (Dream, Shaq in L.A., D-Rob, Daugherty, etc), a couple of exceptional high-post passers (Garnett, Webber, Divac, Pau Gasol's pretty good, Bogut, Love, Karl Malone, Boozer isn't bad at all)... but none of them come even close.

As post passers, the only two guards who come anywhere even close to Magic since he retired are Kidd and Payton, and neither of them are really that close, even Kidd (who remains a phenomenal post passer). Penny was pretty good at times, T-Mac, Kobe, Jordan, etc, but none of these guys had Magic's feel for passing from literally EVERYWHERE on the court, let alone what he could strictly in transition and from the post. Unbelievable. I've seen some guys who could control tempo like him (Nash comes to mind) and a couple of guys who could really milk the PnR very well (which Magic didn't do a lot; Stockton, Deron, Paul) and I've seen guys with some pretty damned impressive court vision (Bird comes to mind, for example, and even MJ and Scottie) but no one who was anything like Magic.

There's a reason that you can stack him up against just about anyone and feel legit coming away thinking "yeah, X may be a better scorer, but holy crap, the things Magic could do as a passer overcome that..."

[JordansBulls]

well .. he dropped 45 points in Game 7 vs. Boston in 2008 .. and it wasnt enough.
he averaged 38-7-7 against the Magic .. and they lost in 6 games in 2009.

People need to stop throwing around the myth that Lebron James isnt a great playoff performer.
His playoff averages are better than his regular season averages, which is pretty rare.

This thread is more about Lebron James vs. Magic Johnson ..not Mo Williams, Varejao,etc vs. multiple Hall of Famers.

He shot 35% in that series and it went 7 and shot 2-18 on the road and still nearly won.
Last year against Orlando he held the ball 18-20 seconds per shot clock possession and then dished.

[JordansBulls]

To early to compare...

Magic had Big Game James, Karrem, Byron Scott, Cooper, Vlade in his later years. He had some talent that made his job easier.

Let's see how well Lebron does with and actual TEAM he's on now.

He still has a chance to be the G.O.A.T

He had a team the last 2 years. Best record in the league. First player to have best record two years in a row and not win a title and was unanimously favored by all experts in both series.

[rrravenred]

He had a team the last 2 years. Best record in the league. First team to have best record two years in a row and not win a title and was unanimously favored by all experts in both series.

Fixed. Player is not team. Team is not player.

[ImmortalD24]

Regular Season:


Playoffs: